Heaslip most likely out of 6N with suspected broken vertabrae

First topic message reminder :

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/jamie-heaslip-could-miss-rest-of-six-nations-with-suspected-broken-vertebrae-1.2104645

Just thought I'd leave this here after the comments about deserving an oscar and milking it. Doubt we'll see Pape for the rest of the tournament either.

maestegmafia wrote:

Steve_rugby wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Looked deliberate Wayne Barnes was again weak in making a crucial decision. Why yellow card Pape?

That act of foul play is a red or nothing.

Was Sam Warburtons red card deserved for foul play against France in RWC 2011 ?

That is a ridiculous question, the sort of trolling rubbish I detest on here..

The ref played to the letter of the law so yes. What Rolland didn't do was not make a decision by opting for a yellow card in a red or no card at all decision.

Plenty of Welsh "fans" and I'm sure you were one of them said that Rolland spoiled the game by sending Warburton off and cited several similar incidents during that tournament where only a yellow card had been awarded and that Warburton should have received the same, even though at every disciplinary hearing, the referees were sanctioned for not showing a red card.

Submachine wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Knees without falling body weight don't have enough impact to fracture healthy vertebrae. Not by a long shot. Will be keenly following heaslip's diagnosis and prognosis on this one.

Claims of a red card are hilarious. Head only gets a red card. Rightly. Even a deliberate stamp a la Healy to the ankle only gets a yellow. Why should pape get more?

Jamie Heaslip Update:
Scans have revealed fractures of the transverse process of three vertebrae in Jamie’s back.
Although this injury causes a good deal of discomfort it does not impact on the structural integrity of the spine, and once healed should pose no long term issues.
Typically this injury is treated akin to a soft tissue injury; according to symptoms.
Jamie is already feeling more comfortable and it is hoped that he will be available to play again in approximately four weeks.

Just googled it. Looks like the sticky up bits on a triceratops head. Surprising I haven't heard of this injury before given how fragile looking they are.

I like your description! That's a new one....

They are fragile, but generally protected by the back muscles.  That protection makes this an unusual injury despite their fragile appearance.  And not threatening to the spinal column.  These injuries, when they do actually occur, are usually not total fractures or total breaks. So no reason for surgery and best recovery is rest.  Loosely similar in recovery (not anatomically) to a grade 3 AC separation which many of us have had over the years of playing.

LondonTiger wrote:

SecretFly wrote:God, I wish I had the expertise these rugby players have.

I've been often on all fours with the pain in my back and all I ever get is a family diagnosis of 'acting up to get sympathy'

First time I fractured vertebrae my mother was on the sideline. "Get up <insert full name - including middle> you great wuss" she screamed.

Second time - 10 years later - my then fiance (a doctor) told those around her in a very loud voice that I was attention seeking.


Eee - the women in my life.

Reminds me of the story of when my mother first went to watch my father play - he went off after 20 minutes with a screwed up shoulder and she didn't notice because she was too busy watching one of his team mates....

The back is a funny thing, when I was 15, I was too young to play for the colts (16-19), but I was old enough to play as a lock for the town 2nd team against guys in their 30s and 40s.

In those days, if you were big enough and ugly enough, you were old enough.

As a result I have a restriction in my head movement over my right shoulder, and a stiffened spine in the lower back where there is little movement backwards or forwards. That along with knees that collapse occasionally, fingers that can't clench due to too many dislocations and other issues.

But I loved it, wouldn't really change anything; a 15 year old kid, making monkeys out of guys twice their age as I was much quicker and more agile, my first drink in a pub, bought by my games teacher (along with the rest of the team) for winning the county schools trophy, captaining my county colts side through an unbeaten season.................... memories I will never forget; especially when my knee collapses, or I drop something as my grip has failed due to arthritis

I am still in contact with a number of blokes I played with in those days (early 70s), we all have problems that these days people would be suing the ar$e out of their clubs for, but we all feel the same.

Do they still say that "sport is good for you"?

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:The back is a funny thing, when I was 15, I was too young to play for the colts (16-19), but I was old enough to play as a lock for the town 2nd team against guys in their 30s and 40s.

In those days, if you were big enough and ugly enough, you were old enough.

As a result I have a restriction in my head movement over my right shoulder, and a stiffened spine in the lower back where there is little movement backwards or forwards. That along with knees that collapse occasionally, fingers that can't clench due to too many dislocations and other issues.

But I loved it, wouldn't really change anything; a 15 year old kid, making monkeys out of guys twice their age as I was much quicker and more agile, my first drink in a pub, bought by my games teacher (along with the rest of the team) for winning the county schools trophy, captaining my county colts side through an unbeaten season.................... memories I will never forget; especially when my knee collapses, or I drop something as my grip has failed due to arthritis

I am still in contact with a number of blokes I played with in those days (early 70s), we all have problems that these days people would be suing the ar$e out of their clubs for, but we all feel the same.

Do they still say that "sport is good for you"?

Quite a few undiagnosed concussions by the sound of things too.

Sub,

Wouldn't know, everyone has always said I was barmy anyway.

10 weeks for Pape. The citing commission determined that it should have been a red.

This isnt the first time Barnes has failed to spot a red card offense in a match involving Ireland. The citing commissioner also ruling that Bradley Davies should have seen red too for tip tackling Donnacha Ryan a few years back in one of the most blatant reds of all time.

Yet Barnes didnt hesitate in sending off Heaslip in a test v NZ in Irelands last red.

Suffice to say he is building up a bit of a dodgy record in games involving Ireland.

GunsGerms wrote:10 weeks for Pape. The citing commission determined that it should have been a red.

This isnt the first time Barnes has failed to spot a red card offense in a match involving Ireland. The citing commissioner ruling that Bradley Davies should have seen red too for tip tackling Donnacha Ryan a few years back.

Yet Barnes didnt hesitate in sending off Heaslip in a test v NZ in Irelands last red.

Suffice to say he is building up a bit of a dodgy record in games involving Ireland.

How about blaming the TMO - who after all has the good view, rather than trying to work it out from the big screens.

Or does that interfere with your conspiracy theory?

You re saying he s being deliberately biased against Ireland?

Ireland have below their average wins in Barnes reffed games and above average penalty count so no it doesnt. He doesnt seem to like Ireland.

He is to Ireland what Walsh is to England. There is no conspiracy just fairly blatant emperical evidence.

Barnes has chosen to give a yellow for two clear reds for dangerous play committed against Ireland players.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You re saying he s being deliberately biased against Ireland?

Certainly reads that way.

GunsGerms wrote:Ireland have below their average wins in Barnes reffed games and above average penalty count so no it doesnt. He doesnt seem to like Ireland.

He is to Ireland what Walsh is to England. There is no conspiracy just fairly blatant emperical evidence.

Barnes has chosen to give a yellow for two clear reds for dangerous play committed against Ireland players.

So are you saying he s deliberately favouring Irelands opponents or not?

WTF do you think?? Is it not obvious.

GunsGerms wrote:Ireland have below their average wins in Barnes reffed games and above average penalty count so no it doesnt.

You have the statistics for this, or just making them up?

Liam Toland referenced it in an article a couple seasons back. Also I posted a list of penalties we conceded under Schmidt. We conceded 11 against France. The most of any game under Schmidt.

Reference the 09 Slam game v Wales Barnes whistled us off the pitch in the last quarter.

Again in 12 v Wales Barnes gifts Wales a last minute pen for a nothing tackle by Ferris for which he got a bizzare yellow.

Same game Davies dropped Ryan on his head without sanction.

GunsGerms wrote:Liam Toland referenced it in an article a couple seasons back. Also I posted a list of penalties we conceded under Schmidt. We conceded 11 against France. The most of any game under Schmidt.

So no stats, no research just using an old comment from a journo. France conceded more penalties than Ireland - perhaps Barnes hates them even more? Or perhaps he is a slightly better than average ref who blows what he sees?

I have given lots of stats.

GunsGerms wrote:WTF do you think?? Is it not obvious.

Yes it s obvious that he s 1 of the worlds best refs and isnt biased against Ireland.

GunsGerms wrote:I have given lots of stats.

No you have not. You have given opinion, no stats.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:WTF do you think?? Is it not obvious.

Yes it s obvious that he s 1 of the worlds best refs and isnt biased against Ireland.

it is a bit sad that that is probably true. Perhaps it is just the increased exposure and amount of cameras that pick up everything - but the standard of reffing does not seem to be high atm.

It is interesting that Barnes is being slated for getting a call wrong when all he had to go on was the TMO and a big screen 60m away. Meanwhile the panel took several hours to decide on guilt.

I am not a fan of Barnes and his reffing style, but will always defend a ref against allegations of deliberate bias. I have done so recently for Clancy and Walsh too.

Well, I think Barnes is OK, but I do love this video. Even better, i was there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=C7a3J59Xrh0

On the other hand, I get the feeling Walsh is a psycho-time bomb waiting for the right Englishman to set him to nuclear fusion mode.  No idea what someone did to him or his family (or his cute little stuffed doggie?), but I wouldn't let him near my kids.

doctor_grey wrote:Well, I think Barnes is OK, but I do love this video.  Even better, i was there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=C7a3J59Xrh0

I take back everything i have said. that video offers clear and irrefutable proof that Barnes is biased against the Irish. how dare he block such a good clearance kick.

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:WTF do you think?? Is it not obvious.

Yes it s obvious that he s 1 of the worlds best refs and isnt biased against Ireland.

it is a bit sad that that is probably true. Perhaps it is just the increased exposure and amount of cameras that pick up everything - but the standard of reffing does not seem to be high atm.

It is interesting that Barnes is being slated for getting a call wrong when all he had to go on was the TMO and a big screen 60m away. Meanwhile the panel took several hours to decide on guilt.

I am not a fan of Barnes and his reffing style, but will always defend a ref against allegations of deliberate bias. I have done so recently for Clancy and Walsh too.

I definitely think Walsh is biased against England

LondonTiger wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I have given lots of stats.

No you have not. You have given opinion, no stats.

No I have given plenty of facts. You just choose to ignore or dismiss them.

For example Barnes the genius gave a yellow for this:

Bradley Davies spear tackle: https://youtu.be/r6xxo75RkCw

A yellow?????

Barnes gives Heaslip a red for this:

Jamie Heaslip See's Red.avi: https://youtu.be/L3HvvvnlGQI

Fair red IMO. He didn't hesitate.

Where is the red for the knee on Heaslip or the tip on Ryan though?

Barnes gives Stephen Ferris the only yellow of his career for this:

The Ferris Tip-Tackle. Ireland v Wales & the Ferris that was Wayned!: https://youtu.be/FoPhM3nqvIM

And gifts the game to Wales. Probably the most ridiculous yellow I have seen.

GunsGerms wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I have given lots of stats.

No you have not. You have given opinion, no stats.

No I have given plenty of facts. You just choose to ignore or dismiss them.

Guns, you say that you have offered empirical evidence - since you have no direct experience of Barnes' reffing (unless there's something you haven't told us), to justify your claim.

You say that Barnes has got two yellow cards wrong in relation to injuries to Irish players.

Has he got them right or wrong with players from other countries? Have other refs got yellow cards wrong for players from other countries?

What's the comparison data look like?

Is twice really a pattern as evidence of him being biased?

He refereed Ireland's Grand Slam game against Wales in 2009. He was the first one to spot that O'Driscoll had scored a try after half-time and went upstairs - was this bias? He awarded a penalty against Ireland at the death due to an infraction by an Irish player - was this bias?

You could point out loads of mistakes its not bias though. Where do you get this idea from? Frankly you re on thin ice with accusations with no substance.

GunsGerms wrote:For example Barnes the genius gave a yellow for this:

Bradley Davies spear tackle: https://youtu.be/r6xxo75RkCw

A yellow?????

Quite right where was the red for charging at the ruck?

No 7&1/2 wrote:You could point out loads of mistakes its not bias though. Where do you get this idea from? Frankly you re on thin ice with accusations with no substance.

Agree 100%.

I don't accept at all that Barnes is biased against Ireland - utter rubbish.

However I do believe that a catalog of carding errors are building up in his out tray that show poor judgement

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:WTF do you think?? Is it not obvious.

Yes it s obvious that he s 1 of the worlds best refs and isnt biased against Ireland.

Hmmm..... 'beauty in the eye of the beholder ', and all that.... I really don't agree. I think he's a whistle happy ref who is a bit clueless about scrums and rucks.

Barnes isn't biased.  But I still get nervous when he refs us.............. you might call it a Walsh-shiver.  It's just something about the physics of him and an Ireland team on the one field that just seems to...... not go as smoothly as it might.

I don't think Barnes or the Irish players can help it - it a natural phenomenon  But he isn't alone.  There are a few more - Poite being another.

But all teams have their few refs that have a 'distinct' relationship with them that often seems eternally controversial.

Munchkin wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:WTF do you think?? Is it not obvious.

Yes it s obvious that he s 1 of the worlds best refs and isnt biased against Ireland.

Hmmm..... 'beauty in the eye of the beholder   ', and all that.... I really don't agree. I think he's a whistle happy ref who is a bit clueless about scrums and rucks.

"The scrum is one of the most technically difficult areas to referee. I work with a specialist front-row, Phil Kiefer, who was part of the England backroom team when they won the World Cup. We will look at what a good picture of a prop is, and what he looks like when he is in difficulty. The decision is not guess work, it is making an accurate decision on the information available to us."

Pot Hale wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:WTF do you think?? Is it not obvious.

Yes it s obvious that he s 1 of the worlds best refs and isnt biased against Ireland.

Hmmm..... 'beauty in the eye of the beholder   ', and all that.... I really don't agree. I think he's a whistle happy ref who is a bit clueless about scrums and rucks.

"The scrum is one of the most technically difficult areas to referee. I work with a specialist front-row, Phil Kiefer, who was part of the England backroom team when they won the World Cup. We will look at what a good picture of a prop is, and what he looks like when he is in difficulty. The decision is not guess work, it is making an accurate decision on the information available to us."

Hey, so all up and coming young players who work with specialists will become world-class. Who knew! Sorry, Barnes happening to mention that he has worked with a 'specialist', doesn't impress me. Would all top level ref's not work with specialists at some point?  Expert analysis now... that does impress me. Maybe post a link to the game analysis, if I can find it again. >

> PostMatchAnalysis

Pot Hale wrote:We will look at what a good picture of a prop is, and what he looks like

They go on Grinder?

Gooseberry wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:We will look at what a good picture of a prop is, and what he looks like

They go on Grinder?

Who knows what they get up to in their spare time....?

10 week ban.
Knee jerk reaction, wont see him back till the world cup.

Gooseberry!!!

That pun deserves a longer ban than Pape got!

SecretFly wrote:Barnes isn't biased.  But I still get nervous when he refs us.............. you might call it a Walsh-shiver.  It's just something about the physics of him and an Ireland team on the one field that just seems to...... not go as smoothly as it might.

I don't think Barnes or the Irish players can help it - it a natural phenomenon  But he isn't alone.  There are a few more - Poite being another.

But all teams have their few refs that have a 'distinct' relationship with them that often seems eternally controversial.

Not sure when WC refs are announced but I really hope we dont get him for any games. Anyone but Barnes.

GunsGerms wrote:For example Barnes the genius gave a yellow for this:

Bradley Davies spear tackle: https://youtu.be/r6xxo75RkCw

A yellow?????

Clearly unacceptable as a yellow. Clear red. Don't get it.

GunsGerms wrote:Barnes gives Heaslip a red for this:

Jamie Heaslip See's Red.avi: https://youtu.be/L3HvvvnlGQI

Fair red IMO. He didn't hesitate.

Where is the red for the knee on Heaslip or the tip on Ryan though?

This is a great series of clips, brother. The knee to the head is also a clear red. Do you have links to the other incidents?

To be fair to Barnes.

With the Bradley Davis incident.

This was before the ref could use the TMO to check such incidents so he asked the TJ, who was just a few feet away and had a clear view, for his recommendation. The TJ then described the incident beautifully including all the factors which made it a red card offence and then recommended yellow.

Barnes mistake was to not ask why it was not a red, the rest of the farce was down to the TJ.