Beating the drum for Jack Nowell..

I went to see Chiefs v Newcastle yesterday and watched the England game at the ground before hand. Yes I know it was only Newcastle but Jack Nowell was nothing short of scintillating playing at outside centre yesterday, Breaking tackles for fun and also using his pace to run around rather than through defenders when he could. Having watched Jonny May out of position more than once and then finally failing to get the Italian winger into touch for the final score I think its time for Lancaster to take a risk and start both Nowell and Watson versus Ireland if Brown is declared fit.

Opinions?

It helps that we were inept yesterday....

I am pretty sure his time will come. but not yet.

He was an absolute donkey when he played for England previously. No attacking threat and a number of mistakes made. That said he has another season under his belt now and England are allowing more adventure form their backs. Hes an option.

Its also worth noting that although May is copping all the heat for the tries its Watson who got ran through like a revolving door missing 3 of his 7 tackles. Its pretty clear Guscott doesnt rate May though.

Top level sport is a harsh environment but even so I think the term absolute donkey for a 20 year old is a bit harsh! I don't think he let anyone down and he was thrown in after only playing a handful of first team games in the premiership. He's a very different player now playing regularly at 13 to get him on the ball more and defending at fly half on defensive set piece.

Its only a personal opinion but I think he is one of the more complete backs on show in the Prem for any club and should at least be on the bench.

From the game I saw, Watson looked a liability in defence, missed 2 tackles in the build up to the first Italian try and missed another for their second.

Gooseberry wrote:He was an absolute donkey when he played for England previously. No attacking threat and a number of mistakes made. That said he has another season under his belt now and England are allowing more adventure form their backs. Hes an option.

Its  also worth noting that although May is copping all the heat for the tries its Watson who got ran through like a revolving door missing 3 of his 7 tackles. Its pretty clear Guscott doesnt rate May though.

When has a Bathite ever rated a Gloucester player?

Agree about Watson, seems no one is mentioning his defensive frailties yesterday. I hope it's a blip, we already have too many wingers great in attack but without the ability to defend.

On thing I did notice was that the majority of England's missed tackles yesterday were when they went in high, they need to use the choke tackle only when the guy is stopped but not grounded, not treat it as a preferred option.

Look at it this way, England have a number of options all of who are young and have to pace to spare, keeping pressure on each other without even having to go back to looking at the likes of Ashton and Sharples.

So no doubt they'll pick Goode if Brown is kept out :

Gooseberry wrote:Look at it this way, England have a number of options all of who are young and have to pace to spare, keeping pressure on each other without even having to go back to looking at the likes of Ashton and Sharples.

So no doubt they'll pick Goode if Brown is kept out :

NOooooooooooo please Noooooo i don't know who should come as cover for full back. as long as it is not Goode.

Brown will be fine in two weeks time.

I suspect it will be Watson at 15 if Brown is out, Nowell on the bench or right wing then...........................................................................arrrgggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Goode on the Bench if Nowell plays. Unless, not sure which is worse, Ashton comes back.


How about this, May at 11, Ford 10, 36 at 12, Burrell at 13, Joseph at 14, Watson 15. That backline could put 47 points over a side like Italy

I have been having some thoughts about the last post. With players interchanging as they do these days, especially in attack, a backline of:

10- Ford
11- Watson
12- Burrell /36
13- Tuilagi
14 -Joseph
15- Brown

The force of nature that is Tuilagi with someone like Joseph outside to take the pop pass, Burrell inside to cause further distraction and stop the defence from moving too far across and Brown or Watson hitting any gaps made by the attrition caused by Manu or Burrell.

Joseph would get plenty of chance to do his thing from centre as once play has broken down most players are out of position anyway.

Joseph is not a wing, he very rarely plays there, pick players in the position they play.

I'd prefer either Wade or Nowell to May is not Int standard imo.

IronMike wrote:From the game I saw, Watson looked a liability in defence, missed 2 tackles in the build up to the first Italian try and missed another for their second.

I think he only missed the first because he was held back off the ball, and the one for the second try was a last ditch attempt at a cover tackle. Probably should have done better but liability is a bit harsh.

Brown will almost certainly be out of the next game so we will most likely see Nowell on the wing with Watson at 15

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Joseph is not a wing, he very rarely plays there, pick players in the position they play.

I'd prefer either Wade or Nowell to May is not Int standard imo.

Israel Dagg and Conrad Smith would disagree

thomh wrote:

IronMike wrote:From the game I saw, Watson looked a liability in defence, missed 2 tackles in the build up to the first Italian try and missed another for their second.

I think he only missed the first because he was held back off the ball, and the one for the second try was a last ditch attempt at a cover tackle. Probably should have done better but liability is a bit harsh.

Brown will almost certainly be out of the next game so we will most likely see Nowell on the wing with Watson at 15

Why will Brown be out of the next game? I doubt any of us have seen the Concussion Assessment results, but looking at him on the sidelines in the second half I suspect he will be off training this week, but with the squad next week and training for the 28th.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Joseph is not a wing, he very rarely plays there, pick players in the position they play.

I'd prefer either Wade or Nowell to May is not Int standard imo.

So with Watson playing FB for Bath, Nowell appearing at 13 for chiefs and May not good enough, does that mean a recall for Ashton?

LondonTiger wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Joseph is not a wing, he very rarely plays there, pick players in the position they play.

I'd prefer either Wade or Nowell to May is not Int standard imo.

So with Watson playing FB for Bath, Nowell appearing at 13 for chiefs and May not good enough, does that mean a recall for Ashton?

Yeah, baby!
Bring back the Splash!
At the minimum, there would be countless inches of newspaper columns, and threads here on 606 would multiply like rabbits receiving hormone treatments.  Think of the fun......

doctor_grey wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Joseph is not a wing, he very rarely plays there, pick players in the position they play.

I'd prefer either Wade or Nowell to May is not Int standard imo.

So with Watson playing FB for Bath, Nowell appearing at 13 for chiefs and May not good enough, does that mean a recall for Ashton?

Yeah, baby!
Bring back the Splash!
At the minimum, there would be countless inches of newspaper columns, and threads here on 606 would multiply like rabbits receiving hormone treatments.  Think of the fun......

Ashton did score a try and an assist on the weekend - though the highlight was him smashing Burgess.

Nowell or Ashton should have been brought in for the Italy game.

Lancaster needs to stick with May now IMO.

HongKongCherry wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Joseph is not a wing, he very rarely plays there, pick players in the position they play.

I'd prefer either Wade or Nowell to May is not Int standard imo.

Israel Dagg and Conrad Smith would disagree

1 good thing in 10+ caps means little imo.

Ask the Italian 13 and Webb how May's defence is.

I can't defend May on the Morisi or the Webb tries as both could have been stopped. However, a little perspective is required in both instances. He did a far better job stopping Morisi than Watson and Attwood did twice and Brown and Haskell did once. He was sucked in for Webb's try as he didn't feel confident that Ford would stop Faletau who'd just brushed Haskell aside, so he stepped in to try and help Ford (who to his immense credit did stop TF). Given that Watson, Haskell and Attwood all missed 2 tackles in the last 2 games resulting in tries, should we also be calling for them to be dropped too?

His defence in last years 6N was excellent and whilst I am not one to purely use stats, he was statistically one of the best backs in the tournament for tackle completion. Likewise, his defence in the AIs was solid with little complaints. So far he could have been better, although his tackle completion rate is better than Watson. He is used as the primary runner for kick chases to great effect. Nevertheless, it is his attacking threat that offers the best options. Little has been said about this, however, given how he stormed the AIs he is definitely being given greater coverage by opposition defences which of course frees up space elsewhere. If you look at Joseph's 2nd try the Italian defence has drifted to cover the wings with May being at the end of it, this leaves a bigger hole for Ford and Joseph to exploit. It is then notable that in the next similar play the defence is forced to stay inside leaving space for May to run outside and take 2/3 defenders with him for Cipriani to trot through the middle.

I am of course being bias with my opinions, but he is better than the others

HKC the difference is that Watson,Haskell and Attwood have actually played well aside from the missed tackles. Watson's tackling was poor vs Italy too but he had a stormer vs Wales. Haskell wasn't as good as the Welsh match but again he performed very well vs the Welsh.

May was quiet in last year's 6 nations - you talk about stats - how about - 0 tries in 8 6 nations matches.

The wingers were the least attacking threats in the England backline in last year's 6 nations.

England have conceded 4 tries - May has been guilty for 2 of them (not just him of course but he's been part of it).

Good post HKC, and points well made. 

Defending as a winger is a tough job. One missed tackle usually results in a try or at least significant gain in yardage for the opposition. As you say, a number of other England boys missed tackles, but the results were not as conspicuous as May's. Miss a tackle in the middle of the field and there's often someone on your shoulder to rectify the mistake. Miss a tackle on the wing, and you're relying on drift defence to make up ground.

beshocked you forgot to mention that May's broken nose had a direct impact upon England losing to France!

I was at the game on Saturday, watched May blow that overlap and was thinking ah just when we thought we're set on the wings, we start cocking it up again.

Then he literally exploded past the 3 Italian defenders, it was right in front of where we were sat, offloaded to Cipriani one handed and Cips trots in for a try.

You see something like that, and its difficult to call for him to be left out, just because he is that damn dangerous. We've gone on for ages about someone like Wade being included because of his strength in attack, and criticised coaches for being too cautious with back 3 players, but May is proving this at the moment.

I'd stick with him, I'd back him to put together a couple more moments where he creates a try out of very little or scores one himself, and that could be the difference between winning or losing the next three games

HKC yes the injury against France did not help because it forced a full back onto the wing which France exploited to brutal effect. It was one of many factors that contributed to the loss.

You might say - it's not May's fault he broke his nose - nonetheless it still negatively impacted the team and result.

beshocked wrote:HKC yes the injury against France did not help because it forced a full back onto the wing which France exploited to brutal effect. It was one of many factors that contributed to the loss.

You might say - it's not May's fault he broke his nose - nonetheless it still negatively impacted the team and result.

Not this again ..

Remind me, who were we blaming at the time ..Ashton or Goode?

Bambam injuries unfortunately can have a negative impact.

Fortunately vs Italy, Brown's injury did not. The stoppage allowed England to regroup, halt Italian momentum and the reshuffled backline didn't do badly at all overall.

As for May - a burst of life - in a match here or there - is that enough?

Yet again he's the worst performing back in the team.

You're right - it was a nice break by May but let's get some context - England were already well ahead. Pressure was off at that point.

Lucky for Mike Brown that we didn't lose the game, or it would have been his fault for getting KO'd!

Was May the worst performing back in the team? I would say Youngs and Burrell hardly had great games. Even if he was, someone has to be the worst performing back, even if the unit as a whole played well.

He showed his threat in attack and did his job in the kick chase game, ok he should have made the tackle at the end, but if we're talking about dropping players for missing tackles in that game we'd be down to about 6 players

its comical reading some of this stuff.

May was 100% the worst back on show on Saturday, as he was the week prior. He was probably the worst England player on show in both games.

This is highlighted a bit by me not rating the lad in the slightest. He's fast but has zero rugby intelligence.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:May was 100% the worst back on show on Saturday, as he was the week prior. He was probably the worst England player on show in both games.

This is highlighted a bit by me not rating the lad in the slightest. He's fast but has zero rugby intelligence.

I can't believe you're making me resort to stats but just to show he was far from the worst back http://www.englandrugby.com/trytracker/fixtures/943/2015/20150214/776852/#/keyinfluencers

ESPN have Goode in for Brown (still showing symptoms) and Nowell for May as probable replacements

Looks like Ireland are safe with their narrow defence then.

Gooseberry wrote:He was an absolute donkey when he played for England previously. No attacking threat and a number of mistakes made. That said he has another season under his belt now and England are allowing more adventure form their backs. Hes an option.

Its  also worth noting that although May is copping all the heat for the tries its Watson who got ran through like a revolving door missing 3 of his 7 tackles. Its pretty clear Guscott doesnt rate May though.

Patently not true.

beshocked wrote:HKC the difference is that Watson,Haskell and Attwood have actually played well aside from the missed tackles. Watson's tackling was poor vs Italy too but he had a stormer vs Wales. Haskell wasn't as good as the Welsh match but again he performed very well vs the Welsh.

May was quiet in last year's 6 nations - you talk about stats - how about - 0 tries in 8 6 nations matches.

The wingers were the least attacking threats in the England backline in last year's 6 nations.

England have conceded 4 tries - May has been guilty for 2 of them (not just him of course but he's been part of it).

You've really got to try and get away from this blame game you play. You can't say May was guilty then tacitly mention that he wasn't the only player at fault.

Rugby is a team game, the whole idea is that 14 men create the space so that one man can score. If that scoring player goes down May's channel then so be it, you can't win them all. It seems that every time somebody scores against England, you have to apportion blame to someone. Last year, it was Jack Nowell who was 'to blame' for our loss to France (apparently), this year he's in favour and now it's May. Give it a rest mate, we hear you, but the onus is on the team to stop that one man from even being in a position in the first place - its never, ever going to happen all the time.

Jimpy wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:He was an absolute donkey when he played for England previously. No attacking threat and a number of mistakes made. That said he has another season under his belt now and England are allowing more adventure form their backs. Hes an option.

Its  also worth noting that although May is copping all the heat for the tries its Watson who got ran through like a revolving door missing 3 of his 7 tackles. Its pretty clear Guscott doesnt rate May though.

Patently not true.

No Guscott really does hate May

HongKongCherry wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:May was 100% the worst back on show on Saturday, as he was the week prior. He was probably the worst England player on show in both games.

This is highlighted a bit by me not rating the lad in the slightest. He's fast but has zero rugby intelligence.

I can't believe you're making me resort to stats but just to show he was far from the worst back http://www.englandrugby.com/trytracker/fixtures/943/2015/20150214/776852/#/keyinfluencers

May has been directly responsible for the loss of two tries, he was the last man and was beat both times. He displays poor judgement and lacks a rugby brain imo. You can't see these things in stats....

He's also done some good things. I think you can see improvement in him from when he first came into the England team but he's not perfect. I guess it's whether you feel sticking with him is better than bringing in others who will still have limitations.

He's done 2 good things in his 10 or so caps imo

Fair enough, touch harsh I feel.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

HongKongCherry wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:May was 100% the worst back on show on Saturday, as he was the week prior. He was probably the worst England player on show in both games.

This is highlighted a bit by me not rating the lad in the slightest. He's fast but has zero rugby intelligence.

I can't believe you're making me resort to stats but just to show he was far from the worst back http://www.englandrugby.com/trytracker/fixtures/943/2015/20150214/776852/#/keyinfluencers

May has been directly responsible for the loss of two tries, he was the last man and was beat both times. He displays poor judgement and lacks a rugby brain imo. You can't see these things in stats....

Hasn't stopped Haskell gaining plenty of plaudits for his efforts though has it....

And well deserved, has he displayed he lacks a brain? I don't think he has.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:And well deserved, has he displayed he lacks a brain? I don't think he has.

You obviously weren't paying attention when he first made his ascent to the England team.... he's never been known for his nouse, on or off the pitch. I mean, you could argue that it isn't true all you want, but then I could have sworn I saw him attempt to score a nailed on try against Wales by trying to chew his way through the post padding.

I'm something of a May apologist, but I am also one to point out that he does have his weaknesses. Last year it was Nowell who got all the stick for being less than useful as a winger, now apparently, he should be playing instead of May. How fickle people can be. There is a lack of options in that position at the moment - it is up to players like Wade and Yarde to prove that they are good enough to replace the encumbant. Lancaster has his reasons for staying with May - young Beshocked reckons we should stick with him despite May not being Ashton....

Sgt_Pooly wrote:He's done 2 good things in his 10 or so caps imo

Pooly, you really exaggerate when you do not rate a player. Now I have to admit that I wish injuries had not robbed Wade of a chance - but from what I have seen May looks like he could be a better winger than Nowell or Yarde - most recent competitors. For me May did comfortably more than two good things in the last game, let alone his career.

The spirit of the monkey-hangers is alive and well I see

I think there's always and will always be, calls for players not in the team to be (re)instated into the team. The gloss of what they can do will always paint over any flaws and the flaws of those in the team relentless exposed. After the honeymoon period, be it a 10 games or 10 mins, there will be calls for player x,y or z.

Bugger off LT, he's rubbish

There will. In this case though Lancaster seems to have reignited his love affair with Nowell and looks set to pick him because hes better at doing what the coaches tell him to do and is on form. Even if that means spilling the odd high ball.

And least Nowell can kind of tackle

So could Strettle, and everyone hated him for it.