Is Chris Ashton the most underrated winger in Europe?

Now I am sure many of you will say oh look Beshocked is being ridiculous.

Chris Ashton can't tackle etc. Why is it that players like Easter,Cipriani and Haskell are allowed a shot at redemption when in good form yet when Ashton is in good form he's not given the same credit?


Many posters on here seem to believe that the likes of Yarde,Nowell,Rokodiguini and May are far superior to Ashton. I disagree. Only one of them is in as good form and that's Nowell - he's a completely different player to Ashton.

Ashton IMO is a more potent match winner than Nowell - Nowell is the more solid option but he's not going to help destroy sides.

Chris Ashton is a player who has been much improved this season - his kicking for touch has improved, he's more solid under the high ball and his tackling is better. Of course he's also been very influential in key wins against Clermont,Bath and Munster.

It's strange that a winger can hold his own easily against classy rivals in Europe like Zebo,Bowe,Guildford and Huget yet is seen as not good enough for England. He even humiliated Yarde earlier in the season when Yarde strolled back, Ashton gobbled up the ball.

Two seasons ago he skinned Bowe - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A76rLc2TMjI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lIWtDPuNYA - Ashton's highlights

Following the theme of topics which have been done to death, can someone start a thread on whether Gatland was right to drop BOD? Followed quickly by whether Mark Cueto's foot was in, and whether the Rugby Champions Cup is fair to everyone

He's an excellent winger who hasn't reproduced his club form for England in some time. His try scoring record is 2nd to none for a current English winger but he had an extended run in the England team when not on form and was then dropped to offer others a chance. It's not a case of being superior to another player, it just doesn't matter if you're not proving it when you have the chance. As I said in another thread if Ashton isn't scoring and looking dangerous he's going to find it harder to impress than some of the other wingers mentioned as they look much busier.

I think more than anything else Ashton is suffering from the number of quality options we have. He had a good run a few seasons ago and didn't manage to tie down a place and now others are getting their chances. It seems that once you're in the England set up you get a good chance to make your case which I like. That does mean though that if you mess up it is going to be a long while before you get another look.

Ashton's dip in form coincided with Farrells introduction into the team. He (spalsh) had his best games when flood was OH and played Ashton into space with flat (forward) passes.

And skinning Bowe isnt that special. Bowe is a very good player,  with a lot of talents but out and out speed isnt one of them

How about a highlight reel of May's best tries?

beshocked wrote:Now I am sure many of you will say oh look Beshocked is being ridiculous.

Chris Ashton can't tackle etc. Why is it that players like Easter,Cipriani and Haskell are allowed a shot at redemption when in good form yet when Ashton is in good form he's not given the same credit?


Many posters on here seem to believe that the likes of Yarde,Nowell,Rokodiguini and May are far superior to Ashton. I disagree. Only one of them is in as good form and that's Nowell - he's a completely different player to Ashton.

Ashton IMO is a more potent match winner than Nowell - Nowell is the more solid option but he's not going to help destroy sides.

Chris Ashton is a player who has been much improved this season - his kicking for touch has improved, he's more solid under the high ball and his tackling is better. Of course he's also been very influential in key wins against Clermont,Bath and Munster.

It's strange that a winger can hold his own easily against classy rivals in Europe like Zebo,Bowe,Guildford and Huget yet is seen as not good enough for England. He even humiliated Yarde earlier in the season when Yarde strolled back, Ashton gobbled up the ball.

Two seasons ago he skinned Bowe - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A76rLc2TMjI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lIWtDPuNYA - Ashton's highlights

Well, yes a bit - especially since you yourself has said that Lancaster should stick with May....

lostinwales wrote:And skinning Bowe isnt that special. Bowe is a very good player,  with a lot of talents but out and out speed isnt one of them

Yeah Ashton relys completely on speed. Take that away and there isnt much left but a smug face (joking). Bowe isnt that fast but has pretty much everything else.

Three things hes suffering from:

1- Being bobbins for an extended period and losing his place not on the form of other but on his own lack of form. Its one thing to have a limited game but he wasnt even doing the things hes good at well.
2- Lancasterball relying on the centers and forwards to score tries rather than the back 3.
3 - His inability to tackle, on form or not. Again he got exposed because of the way England play under Lancaster, but it is a genuine weakness.
4 - His lack of a kicking game. Again England have looked for at least 2 if not all 3 of their outside backs to be part time fullbacks.
5- There are a lot of other players in the frame. Including other strike wingers if thats what was wanted.


In your eyes hes improved those weak areas and is back to his best. If that is so he will bang on the door, but right now there are guys who are in the core squad and who have been for a while getting their chances. Nowell looks to be the next one.
Bearing in mind how long it took Ashton to get dropped its not somehow grossly unfair that he might have to work and produce for a period of time to get back in. Lancaster may be getting fairly ruthless as it is in dropping May for Nowell.

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:And skinning Bowe isnt that special. Bowe is a very good player,  with a lot of talents but out and out speed isnt one of them

Yeah Ashton relys completely on speed. Take that away and there isnt much left but a smug face (joking). Bowe isnt that fast but has pretty much everything else.

And its an example from 2 years ago

Having a quick look. May tries

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvY5TBa0i7o

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:And skinning Bowe isnt that special. Bowe is a very good player,  with a lot of talents but out and out speed isnt one of them

Yeah Ashton relys completely on speed. Take that away and there isnt much left but a smug face (joking). Bowe isnt that fast but has pretty much everything else.

I actually disagree on this, yes he has buckets of speed but that's not all he has. He has a very good (much improved) understanding of the game and runs some great lines. His support play is right up there as well.

lostinwales wrote:Having a quick look. May tries

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvY5TBa0i7o

Nice splash at 1:32, better than the startled stag he did earlier in the sequence

Pro's
Speed
Lines of running / Support
Confidence

Con's
Tackling / Defence in general
Regardless of his club form...he didn't translate that to international.
Looked uninterested to run the lines and work rate he showed in his early England career. Maybe this was brought around by having Farrell etc at 10 and he didn't see the point in making the effort any more.

I would have no problem with Ashton back in with Ford, Joseph etc.

But he's not underestimated.

He's not the most underrated in England, let alone Europe. Team mate Strettle is probably a better candidate for that title because he seems nowhere near the England squad while Ashton went on tour. Others argue for Sharples, although its questionable whether he's in his best form right now.

Another possibility would be Banahan. Not because he's so good, but because he is often dismissed as a comedy figure but is playing very well at the moment, so the gap between reputation and performance is currently wider than some of his tattoos.

One area Ashton is underrated is his footballing skills. I posted a video here the other day of the try he made in 2010 for Steffon Armitage against the NZ Maori. The ball was kicked ahead and bounced over the left hand touchline. Running at full speed, Ashton kicked the ball on and back into play, keeping both feet in the air so he wasn't out of play himself. It's the sort of skill for which Mark Cueto used to get credit. I see Ashton still doing that for Saracens today.

I think Ashton would relish playing in an England team which makes line breaks. If he'd been on the pitch when Manu made his break in the second tour Test against NZ, I suspect he'd have been in support even from the other wing. He only played six minutes of that match and still scored a try.

Even without Manu in the team - Ashton has only started one England match with his old sparring partner since the 2013 loss to Wales - there are players in the squad now who he could profitably track.

I wouldn't have an issue with his selection but I don't see him as underrated. The other contenders have good claims too, and if one of them fulfils his potential in an England shirt, then Ashton might just be out of luck.

beshocked wrote:Now I am sure many of you will say oh look Beshocked is being ridiculous.

Chris Ashton can't tackle etc. Why is it that players like Easter,Cipriani and Haskell are allowed a shot at redemption when in good form yet when Ashton is in good form he's not given the same credit?

Many posters on here seem to believe that the likes of Yarde,Nowell,Rokodiguini and May are far superior to Ashton. I disagree. Only one of them is in as good form and that's Nowell - he's a completely different player to Ashton.

Ashton IMO is a more potent match winner than Nowell - Nowell is the more solid option but he's not going to help destroy sides.

Surely the point is that Ashton already HAS been given shots at redemption but not translated his excellent club form to England. Lancaster has capped Ashton many times. He's never gone with Cipriani or Haskell (to a lesser extent) unless forced to by injuries. He's playing well for Saracens but no better than he was last time he didn't take his chance at international level. Therefore no reason to think it would be different this time.

On the other hand Haskell is now playing his best club rugby for a long time, and justified his recall with his performance against Wales. This has also been the first chance Lancaster has given to Cipriani (barring the availability crisis in NZ) and Easter.

For what it's worth I don't buy the idea that there's something magical about international rugby that Ashton isn't compatible with, but this close to the world cup it's understandable that Lancaster doesn't want to invest more caps in him given that for whatever reason he hasn't really worked at international level for 3 years now. Haskell, Cipriani and Easter have been in equivalent club form and are only now getting the chances that Lancaster gave to Ashton a long time ago.

If he picks Haskell or Cipriani on the wing then maybe youll have a reason to bleat.

Given the choice with Cipriani was between him and Myler its hardly as if hes stepped over world class willy is it. Wheres the pressure on Haskells spot coming from? Only Croft who has spent most of the last 5 years in hospital.

Like most author's Ashton is taking a bit of time with the sequal to his massively popular 'Rewriting the rules on wing play' no doubt he'll be back some time in the future, though, with a follow up to knock our socks off.

Given his Swandive scoring card to date ( a lot of 9.5s and a host of 10s), I'd say you're being a little disingenuous, shocked, when you say he's underrated in the 'wings' department.  He practically flies and everyone knows it.

Tom Varndell has had years of being one of if not the top try scorer in the league without ever really getting another chance at England.

I think the reality is that wing is a position where there is always a next big thing so if you fluff your chance it can be very hard to force your way back in.

Ashton has improved and has clearly been working on his weak points but some of his attempted 'tackles' are still fresh in my mind and probably in the coaches too.

thomh wrote:[..
For what it's worth I don't buy the idea that there's something magical about international rugby that Ashton isn't compatible with, ...

Lots of stuff to agree with, and Ashton has proved that he can be compatible with international rugby, just not with this team and the way it operates.

Mind sooner or later the video analysts and defence coaches will do for Joseph and we will all be crying out for Barritt back in the centers. Maybe.

Gooseberry wrote:Mind sooner or later the video analysts and defence coaches will do for Joseph and we will all be crying out for Barritt back in the centers. Maybe.

There is a very big dollop of truth in that Gooseberry.... and for every side really.  
If you get a new 'star' - they tend to have a period of 'grace' before the opposition gets enough video evidence to close them down, cut them off at source, heavy hand their 'weaknesses' and pretty much odinaryise them sooner or later.
That player won't have changed his spots and will still be a naturally lethal player if he gets a break- but the chances of those breaks close down as top ranked opposition learns more about his methods and instincts.
So I do always reserve judgement on any new out-of-this-world player until he has a season or three - then the real rating comes in.

Because despite everything he can't tackle, watched him in Cork for the Saxons, looked threatening with ball in hand but had complete turnstile defense which is shocking considering his league background and international experience. For me that was his shot a redemption and it shows he hasn't progressed. Cipriani has gone away with steve black and diamond, kept his celebrity head down, learnt to tackle better and clearance kick quicker, Easter has performed well like he always has week in and out, Ashton still wont tackle. Sames as Varndell one of the most proliflic english club level wingers ever and possibly the fastest ever...huge risk in defense. At International level you cant have any weak links, its a shame because with the space Ford gives his players Ashton would thrive. Nope for me in order its

1)Watson
2)Nowell/Rokodunguni
3)Wade
4)May
5)Yarde
6)Ashton
7)Varndell
8)Strettle

Cowshot are our wing options really that good though?

Gooseberry can't really argue with any of that but sometimes think his tackling isn't actually worse than his rivals like Yarde,Wade and May IMO

Rugby fan I guess I see Ashton as underrated because I think he's still got a lot to offer to England but is being overlooked. I don't think the current wingers are redefining wing play.

Yes you are right - Lancaster probably feels he has given Ashton enough chances but I feel that Ashton has turned a corner now.


I like Strettle but you never hear me clamouring for a recall for Strettle because Strettle is generally outshone by Ashton in European rugby. Plus he's 31 compared to 27.

As for Banahan, yes you are right he has been pretty good this season actually.

Wingers don't age well, Forwards on the other case generally do. Winger is a young mans game mostly bar those where pace is not their main weapon.
Someone like Cuthbert will be cut dry within 5 years.... look how Ben Cohen went from the world's best winger to being on the scrapheap in 2 years.

Ashton I think offers something different in terms of his game reading, I do think he should be around the side because if anything he can teach youngsters a thing or two about tracking and running into space.

Strettle is too weak, too small for test rugby. Raw pace isn't good enough, perhaps it was 25 years ago but not today.

However the question goes, how many chances should a player get? He's had a lot and if you can't cut it time and time again its probably better to get someone else involved.

Haskell I don't think has ever done anything wrong? People don't like him because he's a bit of a meathead and perceived to be a bit arrogant.... yet when he went over to NZ in 2012 he raised a lot of eyebrows, knuckled down and not joking... he would have got into the NZ squad with his performances that year.

Haskell gives away a lot of penalties and his defense if poor. His main strength seems to be plodding around in the loose and making yards due to his size. However, he doesnt offer much else IMO.

GunsGerms wrote:Haskell gives away a lot of penalties and his defense if poor. His main strength seems to be plodding around in the loose and making yards due to his size. However, he doesnt offer much else IMO.

Its a balance really. He's not the smartest chap but sometimes you need meatheads like him in your side. He gets the yards and has impressive turn of pace for a big man. Wood and Robshaw certainly don't compliment each other.

I wouldn't say his defence is poor... but compared to Robshaw etc I agree.

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Haskell gives away a lot of penalties and his defense if poor. His main strength seems to be plodding around in the loose and making yards due to his size. However, he doesnt offer much else IMO.

Its a balance really. He's not the smartest chap but sometimes you need meatheads like him in your side. He gets the yards and has impressive turn of pace for a big man. Wood and Robshaw certainly don't compliment each other.

I wouldn't say his defence is poor... but compared to Robshaw etc I agree.

He was at fault for Webb's try v Wales and he also missed a tackle on the Italy centre for one of his tries. He was also defensively in a bad position.

I actually think he will be dropped for the Ireland game. I can see Wood coming in.

I'd be surprised if he dropped him. Take out Webb's try and he was MOM in Cardiff easy. Italy... I can sort of understand why most teams bar Scotland tune out vs. Italy so its easy to miss tackles. England didn't play well at all in the first 50 mins. Were probably fortuitous that they won so comfortably come the end.
His bulk I think will be needed vs. Ireland. Still not convinced myself over vunipola, still see him as carbon copy of census johnson and his yard gains are minimal. Without Haskell, Vunipola is the only man who carries in the entire pack.
You need all action players in a pack when playing Ireland in Ireland these days. Need guys who will front up... Haskell is that sort of chap.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Haskell gives away a lot of penalties and his defense if poor. His main strength seems to be plodding around in the loose and making yards due to his size. However, he doesnt offer much else IMO.

Its a balance really. He's not the smartest chap but sometimes you need meatheads like him in your side. He gets the yards and has impressive turn of pace for a big man. Wood and Robshaw certainly don't compliment each other.

I wouldn't say his defence is poor... but compared to Robshaw etc I agree.

He was at fault for Webb's try v Wales and he also missed a tackle on the Italy centre for one of his tries. He was also defensively in a bad position.

I actually think he will be dropped for the Ireland game. I can see Wood coming in.

Webb's try was definitely his fault, but from memory I think the Italy try you mention was the result of Attwood missing the first up tackle, and Haskell wasn't able to make the cover tackle

I might be wrong though

Haskell has been immense, its nice to actually have a six who is noticeable on the field, to me Tom wood is completely invisible bar the line out which is the one place he beats Haskell in my book. Haskell will eventually be back warming pine because quite simply Lancs loves Wood, probably from the saxons days together way back. Haskell apart from his ball carrying, tackle rate and turnovers is a leader, he rallies the team, has experience and takes some of the load off Robshaw, just like Dayglo did with Johnson. He does give away penalties from time to time, but less than he used to and its cause he's involved with everything, but i realise fickle fans and media will jump on it and magnify every single mistake he makes. For me at the moment he is one of the first names on the team sheet.

sirtidychris Lancaster must like Wood for a reason - perhaps Wood does well in the tackle stats.

Robshaw has been doing more in the lineout since Wood is not in the team.

Both Billy and Robshaw made more tackles than Haskell vs Italy. I think both made more vs Wales too.

One positive of Haskell is he adds another carrier in the backrow in addition to Billy but I wouldn't say his workrate is as high as his fellow backrowers.

I would rank the backrowers like this so far out of 10:

Vs Wales

Haskell - 8.5
Robshaw - 8
Vunipola -6


Vs Italy

Vunipola 8.5
Robshaw 8
Haskell 6

Robshaw has been the best out of the three so far based on consistency.

Taken the load off Robshaw? No he hasn't - he's taken the load off Billy by being another ball carrier.

fa0019 really? You don't think Haskell has ever done anything wrong? I think he needs a player like Billy or Morgan at 8 as much as they need him.


Sirtidychris you really think Ashton is 6th choice? You don't think that's underrating him a bit?

Bear in mind that Ashton has had his England caps with the so called plodders like Farrell and Barritt, plus a centre who is notorious for not passing the ball, Tuilagi, oh and a full back on the wing....

If Ashton misses a tackle he is lambasted if someone like Watson,Hogg,Brown or North misses a tackle it's swept under the carpet.

The one thing i like about Ashton is his ability to track the ball, be on the shoulder of the player with the ball in hand.

I do agree he did loose some form and dropped out of favour. But he as worked his way back into form, and if Brown is out at full back will Watson move to full back and bring Ashton on the wing?....Or is it being over optimistic too assume that his chance as gone.

Haskell's power in the tackle is brilliant, he knocks opposition players back nearly every time and is very good at holding them up to get the turn over. This is key as most of our other forwards go for quantity over quality so make a lot of tackles but generally lose ground in them each time.

He's probably one of our best players, but like others before him has a reputation (rightly or wrongly) and can't shake it, no matter how well he plays.

He's definitely not stupid though.

yappysnap wrote:Haskell's power in the tackle is brilliant, he knocks opposition players back nearly every time and is very good at holding them up to get the turn over. This is key as most of our other forwards go for quantity over quality so make a lot of tackles but generally lose ground in them each time.

He's probably one of our best players, but like others before him has a reputation (rightly or wrongly) and can't shake it, no matter how well he plays.

He's definitely not stupid though.

Agree. Haskell doesn't make the shere number of tackles that Robshaw does (Quins v Wasps in the RCC excepted), but they tend to have a big impact. He can hold people up in mauls and knock people back in a way that Robshaw doesn't. It's a nice balance.

I doubt Ashton's dive thingies fit well in Lancaster new humble, well behaved England.

lostinwales wrote:Having a quick look. May tries

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvY5TBa0i7o

It doesn't include his best move though https://youtu.be/RGajryagpQ8

Re Ashton it's been 4 years since Ashton was any good at international lebel. He cost Sarries the game at Glaws recently and little has been said about it but there is no way he didn't think he was offside.

fa0019 wrote:Wingers don't age well, Forwards on the other case generally do. Winger is a young mans game mostly bar those where pace is not their main weapon.
Someone like Cuthbert will be cut dry within 5 years.... look how Ben Cohen went from the world's best winger to being on the scrapheap in 2 years.

Ashton I think offers something different in terms of his game reading, I do think he should be around the side because if anything he can teach youngsters a thing or two about tracking and running into space.

Strettle is too weak, too small for test rugby. Raw pace isn't good enough, perhaps it was 25 years ago but not today.

However the question goes, how many chances should a player get? He's had a lot and if you can't cut it time and time again its probably better to get someone else involved.

Haskell I don't think has ever done anything wrong? People don't like him because he's a bit of a meathead and perceived to be a bit arrogant.... yet when he went over to NZ in 2012 he raised a lot of eyebrows, knuckled down and not joking... he would have got into the NZ squad with his performances that year.

Harold Shipman had a great bedside manner, but I wouldn't have wanted him hanging around my Grandmother's retirement home.

FecklessRogue wrote:I doubt Ashton's dive thingies fit well in Lancaster new humble, well behaved England.

Which is another reason why perhaps every time he makes a mistake, people are quick to criticise him.

Because he's a dick.

Feckless Rogue I am not sure if that's meant to be sarcasm or not.

Hartley for example is no saint....

HKC I would rather lose that game to Gloucester than Munster,Clermont or Bath personally but each to their own I guess. That loss to Gloucester doesn't bother me in the slightest. Sometimes you have to lose to not get complacent and that's one that we could afford to lose.

Games like Sale and Wasps away,Exeter and Leicester at home etc. Those are not games Saracens can afford to lose.

thomh pretty sure Robshaw helped hold up an Italian with Twelvetrees which led to a turnover and a try.

I have always liked Robshaw for England as long as he is paired with a big ball carrier at 8 which we do have with Billy and Morgan.

Yappysnap really? I think that Haskell works well because of who he is partnered with.

May display a wider range of celebrations in his clips than Ashton does, does that make him more or less off a dick? You dont see most England wingers celebrating tries in that fashion because so few actually manage to score any under Lancaster. It was the previous man in charge who gave Ashton a bollocking for doing it (and then cracked up when he went and did it again anyway). Id imagine Lancaster would just get in a guru to talk about feelings and valuing the shirt rather than risking getting grass stains off then ask all the players to go off and visualise how they will react when Ashton does a swan dive so they arent taken by surprise.

beshocked wrote:Hartley for example is no saint....

I understand the joke, and we all know Hartley has a disciplinary record of some length. But Hartley is also a tough, grind-it-out, team player, who does a lot of the physical grunt work. These are some of the reason why the Saint's players want him as their captain. Regardless of the persona we see (or choose to see), he is a leader.

Gooseberry wrote:May display a wider range of celebrations in his clips than Ashton does, does that make him more or less off a dick? You dont see most England wingers celebrating tries in that fashion because so few actually manage to score any under Lancaster. It was the previous man in charge who gave Ashton a bollcking for doing it (and then cracked up when he went and did it again anyway). Id imagine Lancaster would just get in a guru to talk about feelings and valuing the shirt rather than risking getting grass stains off then ask all the players to go off and visualise how they will react when Ashton does a swan dive so they arent taken by surprise.

Well, May hasn't resorted to pulling the hair of opposition players yet, so less of a dick i'd say...

Jimpy wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:May display a wider range of celebrations in his clips than Ashton does, does that make him more or less off a dick? You dont see most England wingers celebrating tries in that fashion because so few actually manage to score any under Lancaster. It was the previous man in charge who gave Ashton a bollcking for doing it (and then cracked up when he went and did it again anyway). Id imagine Lancaster would just get in a guru to talk about feelings and valuing the shirt rather than risking getting grass stains off then ask all the players to go off and visualise how they will react when Ashton does a swan dive so they arent taken by surprise.

Well, May hasn't resorted to pulling the hair of opposition players yet, so less of a dick i'd say...

Gooseberry makes a good point about England wingers not scoring very much.  So, I would ask why do we need them at all?  Wingers are generally useless except as waiters.  Why not simply go with 2 more flankers?  Lancaster likes playing people out of position, but is it really out of position if the position isn't used?  Maybe 2 more props?  Perfect.  

The only point I would make is that I don't think players care one way or the other about Ashton's splash dive.

[quote="doctor_grey"]

Jimpy wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:May display a wider range of celebrations in his clips than Ashton does, does that make him more or less off a dick? You dont see most England wingers celebrating tries in that fashion because so few actually manage to score any under Lancaster. It was the previous man in charge who gave Ashton a bollcking for doing it (and then cracked up when he went and did it again anyway). Id imagine Lancaster would just get in a guru to talk about feelings and valuing the shirt rather than risking getting grass stains off then ask all the players to go off and visualise how they will react when Ashton does a swan dive so they arent taken by surprise.

Well, May hasn't resorted to pulling the hair of opposition players yet, so less of a dick i'd say...

Gooseberry makes a good point about England wingers not scoring very much.  So, I would ask why do we need them at all?  Wingers are generally useless except as waiters.  Why not simply go with 2 more flankers?  Lancaster likes playing people out of position, but is it really out of position if the position isn't used?  Maybe 2 more props?  Perfect.  

The only point I would make is that I don't think players care one way or the other about Ashton's splash dive.[/quote]

Well perhaps they don't, but then he hasn't dropped the ball going over the line in front of 80000 England fans or his club faithful yet has he.... as we say in engineering, just because an accident hasn't happened to date, it doesn't mean it wont happen in the future. It might be a different story then. Ah... look, i'm probably being harsh on Ashton. When he first came on the scene, I was really happy with him, went looking for work, scored some great tries - one at Twickenham v Wallabies (mind you, that try was set up by the much maligned Haskell who dug the ball out of a ruck on the England try line - a ball he had no right to get, what short memories some people have eh?). But, you know what, his light faded fast. A defensive liability at worst, he seemed to become less an less useful under Lancaster as he moulded the team in his image. He's had his chance, move on, nothing to see here....

Jimpy wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:May display a wider range of celebrations in his clips than Ashton does, does that make him more or less off a dick? You dont see most England wingers celebrating tries in that fashion because so few actually manage to score any under Lancaster. It was the previous man in charge who gave Ashton a bollcking for doing it (and then cracked up when he went and did it again anyway). Id imagine Lancaster would just get in a guru to talk about feelings and valuing the shirt rather than risking getting grass stains off then ask all the players to go off and visualise how they will react when Ashton does a swan dive so they arent taken by surprise.

Well, May hasn't resorted to pulling the hair of opposition players yet, so less of a dick i'd say...

Gooseberry makes a good point about England wingers not scoring very much.  So, I would ask why do we need them at all?  Wingers are generally useless except as waiters.  Why not simply go with 2 more flankers?  Lancaster likes playing people out of position, but is it really out of position if the position isn't used?  Maybe 2 more props?  Perfect.  

The only point I would make is that I don't think players care one way or the other about Ashton's splash dive.[/quote]

Well perhaps they don't, but then he hasn't dropped the ball going over the line in front of 80000 England fans or his club faithful yet has he.... as we say in engineering, just because an accident hasn't happened to date, it doesn't mean it wont happen in the future. It might be a different story then. Ah... look, i'm probably being harsh on Ashton. When he first came on the scene, I was really happy with him, went looking for work, scored some great tries - one at Twickenham v Wallabies (mind you, that try was set up by the much maligned Haskell who dug the ball out of a ruck on the England try line - a ball he had no right to get, what short memories some people have eh?). But, you know what, his light faded fast. A defensive liability at worst, he seemed to become less an less useful under Lancaster as he moulded the team in his image. He's had his chance, move on, nothing to see here....

So...you are saying once he left Saints it was all downhill?

Doctor grey you don't mind about Hartley's red cards?


Ashton is a team player - it might not seem like that but he does come into the backline and has a few try assists to his name. He's of course a bit of a poacher too but he's not just a bloke who hangs on the wing waiting for the glory pass. He does go looking for work.

For all the criticism of Ashton he's never cost Saracens big matches IMO, in contrast actually he will always hold my respect for making sure Manu didn't make the AP final vs Saracens. Without their main strike runner - the Leicester attack was blunted.

Celebrations are something I am torn on - I like the swallow dive - it shows Ashton is confident - I genuinely don't think he does it to rub it in the opposition's faces though it can be interpreted that way. I can understand it can be seen as disrespectful but celebrations can backfire.

Liam Williams looked like a plonker on the weekend after his non try.

Owen Farrell injured himself last year whilst celebrating a try which was disallowed - if he hadn't been a plonker the try might have stood.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1914XF8afo - this is of course infamous.



Ashton has actually been quite canny with his dives - he keeps the ball very secure. Also he only does a dive when the result is basically in no doubt.


You can watch highlights of the Sarries vs Bath game here - Ashton is prominent -

http://www.saracens.com/sarries-tv/



http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/rugby/chris-ashton-set-to-snub-foreign-interest-to-stay-at-saracens-and-pursue-his-world-cup-dream-10055217.html

Chris Ashton will stay at Saracens.

Mate, I didn't say how I feel about Hartley's disciplinary record. It is his peers, the people he plays with, who want him as their captain.

Castrogivani broke his ribs swan diving a few years back.