Is Chris Ashton the most underrated winger in Europe?

First topic message reminder :

Now I am sure many of you will say oh look Beshocked is being ridiculous.

Chris Ashton can't tackle etc. Why is it that players like Easter,Cipriani and Haskell are allowed a shot at redemption when in good form yet when Ashton is in good form he's not given the same credit?


Many posters on here seem to believe that the likes of Yarde,Nowell,Rokodiguini and May are far superior to Ashton. I disagree. Only one of them is in as good form and that's Nowell - he's a completely different player to Ashton.

Ashton IMO is a more potent match winner than Nowell - Nowell is the more solid option but he's not going to help destroy sides.

Chris Ashton is a player who has been much improved this season - his kicking for touch has improved, he's more solid under the high ball and his tackling is better. Of course he's also been very influential in key wins against Clermont,Bath and Munster.

It's strange that a winger can hold his own easily against classy rivals in Europe like Zebo,Bowe,Guildford and Huget yet is seen as not good enough for England. He even humiliated Yarde earlier in the season when Yarde strolled back, Ashton gobbled up the ball.

Two seasons ago he skinned Bowe - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A76rLc2TMjI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lIWtDPuNYA - Ashton's highlights

Gooseberry wrote:Castrogivani broke his ribs swan diving a few years back.

I would have thought he broke the ground............

doctor_grey wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Castrogivani broke his ribs swan diving a few years back.

I would have thought he broke the ground............

https://youtu.be/4s6GpdCbtyg?t=3m43s

doctor_grey wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Castrogivani broke his ribs swan diving a few years back.

I would have thought he broke the ground............

And it serves him right, props are simply not supposed to score tries. I can understand a front row forward celebrating exhuberently after scoring, after all, its a rarity - wingers on the other hand, are kind of paid to score tries....

Well apparently wings are paid to stop them judging from the comments about dropping May and not picking Ashton. (Also see Varndell)

Gooseberry wrote:Well apparently wings are paid to stop them judging from the comments about dropping May and not picking Ashton. (Also see Varndell)

Going to one extreme you had Visser and Scotland vs the AB's. Visser scored a great try but waved the AB's through for another couple. You need a bit of both.

It was interesting that the Twickenham crowd gave Cipriani a big welcome. I don't think Ashton would get such a big cheer for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, he hasn't been away that long. He started four matches last season, and got a try in a fifth. Secondly, he doesn't have a wow factor. That is, you don't expect him to single-handedly save a game with an individual bit of brilliance. Players like Cipriani and Wade, whether deserved or not, do have that aura.

That may sound a strange thing to say about a man who started his England career with a prolific scoring rate, and a length-of-the-field try against Australia.

In general, though, Ashton is a great man to have when your team is creating chances, rather than someone you expect to conjure up some magic himself. If you make breaks, and Ashton is in your side, you improve your chances of turning those opportunities into points.

This probably means he is a better fit for the team now than he was when Lancaster's England was struggling to find any fluidity in the backs. Our Six Nations were built on a great work ethic and scramble defence, which required Ashton to stay out wide rather than search out the few line breaks we were able to engineer.

The only way he's going to get a chance to show what he can do, though, is if we see some more indifferent performances by our wingers and/or there is a sudden spate of injuries.

if he managed another 4 try performance I think the crowd would be well behind him again, people are practically orgasmic over a guy who scored 2.
As you say though his return at this point wouldnt be any great shakes, its very different from the unfairly dropped Easter refusing to die and Cipriani turning his life around after years in the wilderness, then scoring with his first touch.

For all of them getting the shirt back no doubt meant or would mean a lot, but the story of Easter and Cipriani is much deeper and captures the public imagination more. Its noticeable that Cirpriani though has done everything he can to avoid being seen as milking it, even painfully underplaying a the celebration for his try and managing not to get photographed with a model at fashionable night club this week.

If Ashton was playing well enough to demand selection, not just mooted because the BBC pundits hate May, then I guess there would be a much bigger clamour for his return. And if he hadnt been dropped after a very long period of mediocrity then the internet and Twickers masses would have more faith and excitement in his possible return.

Gooseberry it seems like people have forgotten why the likes of Cipriani and Easter were dropped in the first place.

Cipriani has basically had just 1 good game at international level and gave away numerous chargedowns.

Easter - just lacked the pace and power of an 8 like Billy or Morgan. Also his comments after a poor 2011 RWC campaign were not appreciated.

People have short memories with Ashton - he saved us from a humiliating loss to Scotland in the RWC 2011 with his try and had a good try scoring haul in that competition, he scored a try in the win against NZ. Something that seems to be completely ignored.

Ashton is playing well though.

Rugby fan



Ashton is the kind of winger that if his team is playing well - he will amplify that. Naturally he struggles when his team is under the cosh.

I've seen him help his respective side crush sides too often to write him off -e.g. NZ,Australia,Scotland,Munster,Ulster,Clermont,Leicester.

I don't think all of Ashton's struggles for England are his fault.

People say Ashton doesn't have the X factor but he is a potent match winner who can help put sides to the sword. Not with searing breaks but as a deadly team member who either makes a break then pass for a team mate or who latches onto a grubber or pass from a team mate.

Ashton is a proper team player.

beshocked wrote:

HKC I would rather lose that game to Gloucester than Munster,Clermont or Bath personally but each to their own I guess. That loss to Gloucester doesn't bother me in the slightest. Sometimes you have to lose to not get complacent and that's one that we could afford to lose.

I am sorry Beshocked but that's a nonsensical argument and it appears you have taken my comment not in the manner it was intended. I was neither gloating nor comparing us to your more illustrious competition. My comment on Ashton costing you the game has no bearing on how that effects Sarries' season, rather, as with the intention of the thread, to comment on Ashton's ability. He was within earshot of Doyle to hear advantage over called, he was comfortably 5 meters offside and would have been well aware of this yet persisted with the chase. Regardless of opposition he has cost Sarries the game and cannot escape blame.

And in fairness this argument holds a lot more weight than losing a game due to a broken nose!  

beshocked wrote:Gooseberry it seems like people have forgotten why the likes of Cipriani and Easter were dropped in the first place.

Cipriani has basically had just 1 good game at international level and gave away numerous chargedowns.

Easter - just lacked the pace and power of an 8 like Billy or Morgan. Also his comments after a poor 2011 RWC campaign were not appreciated.

People have short memories with Ashton - he saved us from a humiliating loss to Scotland in the RWC 2011 with his try and had a good try scoring haul in that competition, he scored a try in the win against NZ. Something that seems to be completely ignored.

Ashton is playing well though.

You're right abut Cipriani and Easter's past, but wrong that others have forgotten it. The point is that they're only now getting the second chances based on their club form that Ashton has already had plenty of. Ashton did score against NZ but it was hardly his creation. You can't deny that he has underwhelmed for the vast majority of Lancaster's time in charge, despite being in excellent form for Saracens for pretty much that whole time.

His time will come again, he just needs to keep doing what he is doing.

If he continues on the right path SL will select him again he has already shown that by selecting Easter and Cips unless there is something we are not aware of between him and Ashton.

thomh it wasn't his creation but he ran a great support line and got the reward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuloFGeMY9o

How many times have you seen a game and wished there was a man supporting a break.

Yes Ashton has been underwhelming for England but the team as a whole has been much improved since last year's 6 nations (except for the wings). Ashton hasn't had an opportunity with the likes of Ford,Burrell and Joseph in the backline.

Watson and May are not destroying opposition. It's not as if they are Robinson and Cohen reborn. Too early to label them that.

Watson played well against Wales but his defence wasn't great vs Italy.

My rating - 8.5/10 vs Wales, 5.5/10 vs Italy

May IMO has had two poor matches with two defensive errors in each match.

My rating - 5.5/10 vs Wales, 5/10 vs Italy

When you throw in his indifferent form of the previous 6 nations it's no surprise I have questioned May's place.

If May was playing well and was scoring tries I wouldn't question his place. Watson played well against Wales so despite his indifferent form vs Italy, he's done enough.


HKC my point is in grand scheme a loss to Gloucester isn't the same as let's saying losing to a top 4 rival or an European rugby rival.

If an injury contributes to a loss is it not important?

If Ashton contributes to a significant loss I will be frustated.

E.g. I have been criticising Farrell for his contributions to the losses in the two finals and the game away to Munster. Rhys Gill for his significant contribution loss to Munster away.

I will happily criticise a player irrelevant of whether he is a Saracens player or not.

Do you think I want to criticise May? Of course I don't - I would love him to prove me wrong by scoring a try or two vs Ireland and I wish him all the best. Though of course part of me does like saying I told you so.


I am not against the likes of Haskell,Easter and Cipriani getting second chances - I just want Ashton to get another because I still feel he has a lot to offer England.

I call him underrated because there are some who think Ashton is worse than the likes of Nowell,May,Wade and Rokodiguini.

Till they score as many influential tries and help win as many matches I don't think they can say that.

Ashton got offers from Clermont and Racing Metro according to the evening standard - not bad for a winger who supposedly is not in the same league as Wade,Rokodiguini,May and Nowell.

TightHEAD wrote:If he continues on the right path SL will select him again he has already shown that by selecting Easter and Cips unless there is something we are not aware of between him and Ashton.

Unless his agent successfully hawks hum to a French team. However atm none are willing to meet the salary expectations.

Ashton effectively had his second chance that autumn when Wade and Yarde were going to be the England wings, and both promptly got injured. I think Yarde made a return a couple of games in, but Wade ended up missing most of the season.

Ashton played all the games and did diddly squat, then was out for the following 6 Nations when May and Nowell got a go

BamBam wrote:Ashton effectively had his second chance that autumn when Wade and Yarde were going to be the England wings, and both promptly got injured. I think Yarde made a return a couple of games in, but Wade ended up missing most of the season.

Ashton played all the games and did diddly squat, then was out for the following 6 Nations when May and Nowell got a go

Didn't he get a try vs Argentina? Scored vs New Zealand as a sub in June 2014 too....

I might be wrong, but wasn't that the series when Read and Savea ran riot down his wing in the first half, leaving too much for us to do in the second half?

BamBam wrote:I might be wrong, but wasn't that the series when Read and Savea ran riot down his wing in the first half, leaving too much for us to do in the second half?

Cumulatively, he missed 6 tackles on those two players alone in the first half.

Ashton could have done better but it wasn't all his fault.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljOALSZ4Ao8

For the first try Manu is completely useless and leaves England a defender short. Ashton should have stopped the 9 though.

2nd try is also Manu's fault as well as Eastmonds who allow NZ to burst through. Leaving poor old Ashton exposed. Perhaps he should have kept his line but the break pulled in the English defenders.

3rd try - Yarde misses the tackle

4th try - yet again Yarde

5th try - Yup Yarde again.

I meant the home game mate, the Autumn Internationals the year after we beat them. I'm not even sure if that's the right game tbh, but Jimpy seems to know which game it is

Ashton has had a fair crack of the whip. He s still around and not banished to the wilderness.

And he got a Saxons shot which shows he is still in the thoughts of the coaches.

I don't think Lancaster 'banishes' anyone, so Ashton definitely won't be out.

I see what you are saying beshocked about Watson's lapses against Italy or Yarde's lapses against NZ. But between them they have what 8 caps? They are what 20 and 22? Of course they will make mistakes they are learning.

Ashton is 27 he's very experienced, doesn't he have more caps than Watson, JJ, Burrell and Yarde put together? By now he should have cemented himself but his England appearances have let him down.

Defending Watson, yes he missed a couple but he also switched positions and put in some great last ditch defence. Would I have trusted Ashton to make a round the legs, must stop the man in full flight tackle? No.

Gooseberry wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Castrogivani broke his ribs swan diving a few years back.

I would have thought he broke the ground............

https://youtu.be/4s6GpdCbtyg?t=3m43s

Thanks, mate. This is truly funny!

beshocked wrote:...Didn't he get a try vs Argentina?...

Argentina was definitely not one of his best games. A TMO review of his try might well have seen it disallowed.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiJ8CadRQh4

Perhaps not Rugby fan but he scored a try - Bambam said Ashton did diddly squat (I wouldn't call a try that even if it could have been disallowed).

I have seen tries that should have been disallowed and some non tries that should have been allowed - it's the ones given that ultimately count even if you disagree with the decision.

Swings and roundabouts I guess.

To be fair BS that was about an easy a run in as hes going to get, and he still came about as close as is possible to ballsing up the grounding, its not conclusive form the replay so Ill trust the touch judge on that one but it doesnt half look like he was well off the pitch when the ball touched down despite crossing the line a few meters infield. One case where the splash wouldve been the better option!

Its fishing a bit to start pulling things like that out the bag as evidence that hes being unfairly overlooked.


However I dont think thats what you are really trying to argue. Its just that he is one of the strike wingers who should be in the picture should Lancaster want a strike winger in his side. Which, as a Saxon, he is.
Its also fair to say that the internet in general always wants the man in who hasnt yet been tainted by several years in the shirt. Lancaster has been widely lauded for refusing to decide what his best team is, and getting the players injured the minute it looks vaguely settled...then lauded as a genius for being forced to pick his third choice players.
Last year Burrell was the new old Tindall, and before him Manu was the new SBW...now JJ is the greatest thing since Gusscot invented sliced bread. Im sure we will all hate on him within a few months and be calling out for Catchpole or Chuck Norris next winter. Meanwhile poor old Manu, will get a squad place back and be slagged off on the grounds he only annihilated the all blacks once and didnt win two world cups singlehandedly.

Theres always something better, ask the England cricket captain.

beshocked wrote:Perhaps not Rugby fan but he scored a try - Bambam said Ashton did diddly squat (I wouldn't call a try that even if it could have been disallowed).

I have seen tries that should have been disallowed and some non tries that should have been allowed - it's the ones given that ultimately count even if you disagree with the decision.

Swings and roundabouts I guess.

Well diddly squat may have been harsh, but if we give him credit for the Argentina try, we must also note his turnstile defence that cost us 2 against NZ (which you've ignored)

I don't have anything against Ashton, I just don't think he's good enough for internationals anymore unless Watson/May/Nowell/Wade/Yarde etc are all injured

Gooseberry

I think it's just sometimes people forget what Ashton has done and just focus on his mistakes.

Of course he makes mistakes but no more than others IMO. I guess you could say that about many players - we focus on their errors - I am guilty of that also.

I think Lancaster has done a good job overall but has made a few mistakes that have cost him two potential GSs. Also Andy Farrell and Mike Catt are not two of the best coaches in the country yet somehow they have prominent roles.

Bambam you talk about his turnstile defence - it's no worse than that of Yarde plus we are talking about NZ - the best side in the world.

Struggling to tackle the likes of Savea and Read.... because it's easy for most players right?

NZ are the benchmark sure but they aren't the only team in international rugby.

Ashton is not the only player who misses tackles vs NZ either - he's just the one who gets a bullseye strapped to his chest.

Watch Yarde's tackling vs NZ - just as bad as Ashton if not worse - the difference is that Ashton has a win over NZ under his belt.

I guess the main argument against Ashton is the belief he has had many chances -

a tour to NZ - being his last. Struggling against the best side in the world means he is not good enough to face the likes of Italy,Scotland,Wales and France?

I don't believe that argument - afterall Ashton is a winger who has helped beat the ABs.

Saying that a player is not good for internationals because he struggles vs the best in the world is pretty stupid to be honest. Most people struggle vs the best in the world - it's why they are the best........

Gooseberry wrote:To be fair BS that was about an easy a run in as hes going to get, and he still came about as close as is possible to ballsing up the grounding, its not conclusive form the replay so Ill trust the touch judge on that one but it doesnt half look like he was well off the pitch when the ball touched down despite crossing the line a few meters infield. One case where the splash wouldve been the better option!

Its fishing a bit to start pulling things like that out the bag as evidence that hes being unfairly overlooked.


However I dont think thats what you are really trying to argue. Its just that he is one of the strike wingers who should be in the picture should Lancaster want a strike winger in his side. Which, as a Saxon, he is.
Its also fair to say that the internet in general always wants the man in who hasnt yet been tainted by several years in the shirt. Lancaster has been widely lauded for refusing to decide what his best team is, and getting the players injured the minute it looks vaguely settled...then lauded as a genius for being forced to pick his third choice players.
Last year Burrell was the new old Tindall, and before him Manu was the new SBW...now JJ is the greatest thing since Gusscot invented sliced bread. Im sure we will all hate on him within a few months and be calling out for Catchpole or Chuck Norris next winter. Meanwhile poor old Manu, will get a squad place back and be slagged off on the grounds he only annihilated the all blacks once and didnt win two world cups singlehandedly.

Theres always something better, ask the England cricket captain.

This is right on the money, mate. The media and us, or is is us and the media? In today's world these do merge a bit - clamour for the player who is fresh and new and has not had the temerity to have a bad game.

Guscott did invent sliced bread (read that on the I love me web site, by JG)
Is Chuck Norris England qualified? Must be by residency, and I presume plays all positions at the same time????

I dont think Chuck Norris would make it. He doesn't have Chris Robshaw's work rate.

Chuck Norris would be lethal when he goes up to catch a high ball, roundhouse leading with the studs!

beshocked wrote:...Saying that a player is not good for internationals because he struggles vs the best in the world is pretty stupid to be honest...

Yes it is, but that's not the only count against Ashton. You drew attention to his Argentina performance but that was probably the game which confirmed to Lancaster  he ought to try other options. Ashton was largely ineffective in attack, and almost blew a clear run-in by not getting the ball down. He had already missed out on a try earlier in the match by cutting inside instead of backing himself for the line, which is the same kind of mistake May made.

Here's the rating from The Rugby Blog (The Guardian also scored him a 5

14. Chris Ashton: 5
His stats looked good, and reflected a high work-rate, but there were too many errors and missed opportunities for Ashton to warrant his place in the team next weekend, if a replacement is available. He scored a try (that arguably could have been ruled out had it gone to the TMO), and butchered a one-on-one that he should have finished. He was also stepped far too easily in defence. Better, but not good enough.

http://www.therugbyblog.com/england-v-argentina-england-player-ratings

He wasn't dropped, largely because injuries sidelined his main competition, and this is how he rated against New Zealand in the following match:

Chris Ashton
Average again. One dreadful decision to kick the ball away in New Zealand's 22 will haunt him. You just can't do that. 5 (Telegraph)

Chris Ashton 5/10
Still not going his way, but he can't be faulted for energy and effort. The timing remains elusive, and he ruined one attack with a silly kick, but ruined one of theirs, too, with an intercept. (Guardian)

Chris Ashton: 5
Not terrible but not brilliant either. Once again, plenty of endeavour but little reward to show for it. One aimless grubber kick after a good period of English pressure was a particular lowlight. Defence was better than the previous couple of weeks, however. (The Rugby Blog)

Only Joel Tomkins in the England back line was scored worse than Ashton for that match. The truth is, Ashton got a run in the autumn of 2013 when Lancaster would have preferred to try other players. With that extra lease on life, he made no impression against Australia, looked even worse in attack against the Pumas, and failed to redeem himself against New Zealand. It wasn't his failure against the world's best which saw him dropped, it was the cumulative effect of being no better than average, and arguably below par.

I've already described how Ashton could well fit in with the current squad better than in his previous outings under Lancaster but I don't see the need to rewrite his record in the matches before he got dropped.

He played for the Saxons this year so to my mind it goes:

Current Wings: May + Watson

Squad Cover: Nowell - he's the most likely to come in for injuries or if Watson plays at fb

Extended Cover: Yarde + Ashton - both are equally likely to fill no Nowells squad position, both have experience and defence issues, Ashton the better kicker and smarter, Yarde faster and more powerful.

So Ashton is joint fourth place, not bad at really when you think Watson could easily move to fb, May is not setting the world alight, Nowell is another fb/wing and a bit slow and Yarde has the same issues as Ashton but less experience and a lot poorer kicking game.

Yappysnap I guess most of that is fair but there is no comparison between Yarde and Ashton.

Ashton is a more experienced player and in better form.

I'd have Yarde over Ashton every day of the week and twice on Sundays

There you go.  That's what I keep saying about England.  

Strong point - the number of realistic options in each position
Weak point - the number of realistic options in each position

That contradiction only fully comes into force if the side loses a few games they'd expect to win.  Then, because of all the options floating around, the pressure grows from fans and the media to change the players.  Just change the players and all will be well because there is always a player playing 'better' than the incumbent.  He'll only be playing better in 'club' btw but that never matters.  The options are there so use them is always the demand.

So Ashton falls from grace and leaves the team.  Now we have a few new guys doing the Ashton super stuff that we saw from him when he first exploded into International.  
Time will decide if Ashton drops back into the side.  But of course it'll take fan and media interest (and a loss or two) to bring that about.

But Settled really is a definition England as a side have a lot of trouble getting to - for the very reason of their size and the number of options always being debated at any one time.

Bambam it's not April Fool's day. Be serious.

What has Yarde done of note this season for Quins?

Proving my point that Ashton is underrated.

5 tries for Yarde in European rugby and AP - 3 of them vs LW and 1 vs Castres - two of the worst sides in Europe.

10 for Ashton in European rugby and AP - 2 vs Munster, 2 vs Clermont, 1 vs Bath. 1 vs Quins (when he made Yarde look like a wally).

BamBam wrote:I'd have Yarde over Ashton every day of the week and twice on Sundays

Right now I would not as Yarde looks short of form.

However Ashton's performances for England since 2011 RWC suggest that despite club form he is not good enough all round for international play. Over the last 4 seasons he has bee tested and found wanting. Thus I would look at Wade and Nowell before Ashton. Having the threat of Wade outside Joseph would give scare defenders so much that the Bath man would have more space to run in (which as he passes for England as much as Manu and Barritt is what would happen).

Having said all this - for now I would not drop May. For me he has done appreciably more good than bad in the two matches so far and in a new look lineup it is no surprise that the players with significant experience of playing with Ford (youngs, JJ and Watson) have thrived, while those without (Burrell and May0 have looked less good.

Form goes up and down. Yarde looked great when he first played for England, but is no where near that level now.

Its the same message again and again here, and interestingly enough the same situation with Alex Goode. (great club form not necessarily translating to international)

Interesting to see an article about Chris Pennell hoping for a call up in Brown's absence.

beshocked wrote:Bambam it's not April Fool's day. Be serious.

What has Yarde done of note this season for Quins?

Proving my point that Ashton is underrated.

5 tries for Yarde in European rugby and AP - 3 of them vs LW and 1 vs Castres - two of the worst sides in Europe.

10 for Ashton in European rugby and AP - 2 vs Munster, 2 vs Clermont, 1 vs Bath. 1 vs Quins (when he made Yarde look like a wally).

My opinion that Yarde is a superior player to Ashton does not prove anything

Beating someone to a bouncing ball is hardly making them look like a wally, it was a defensive error, yes, but if anyone knows about being a defensive liability its Ashton

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBr9uTPDQls

Guildford makes a defensive error for the 4th try - you don't think he's to blame? Don't think that's him being a wally?

Of what I remember of the Ashton try when he humiliates Yarde - Ashton hungrily chases the ball, Yarde strolls back and Ashton catches him napping to score. That's pretty poor.


To be honest I think Yarde managed to top Ashton with his defense howlers vs NZ.

That reminds me how well Strettle started the season.

Yardes form has been really poor at Quins. I wouldn't pick him at the moment. But then he's just changed clubs, is playing for a team who are doing terribly (that's nothing to do with him though) and has a completely new gameplan to get used to (if there even is one) that doesn't create much for him.

Ashton should be playing better then him for his club. He's very settled, the gameplan suits him and his team usually dominate the opposition (which has nothing to do with him) giving him plenty if chances.

Yappysnap how long is Yarde going to use that excuse?

That was the one he used for LI. It's easier to shine in a poorly performing team as a player can stand out like Parisse for Italy or Pennell for Worcester.

You can be a good team but doesn't necessarily mean you'll perform.

Look at Burns - he's moved to Leicester yet he's not yet kicked on.

beshocked wrote:
Look at Burns - he's moved to Leicester yet he's not yet kicked on.

He lost form before he moved.
He suddenly found it again (*allegedly) when playing his old chums last week

LondonTiger wrote:

BamBam wrote:I'd have Yarde over Ashton every day of the week and twice on Sundays

Right now I would not as Yarde looks short of form.

However Ashton's performances for England since 2011 RWC suggest that despite club form he is not good enough all round for international play. Over the last 4 seasons he has bee tested and found wanting. Thus I would look at Wade and Nowell before Ashton. Having the threat of Wade outside Joseph would give scare defenders so much that the Bath man would have more space to run in (which as he passes for England as much as Manu and Barritt is what would happen).

Having said all this - for now I would not drop May. For me he has done appreciably more good than bad in the two matches so far and in a new look lineup it is no surprise that the players with significant experience of playing with Ford (youngs, JJ and Watson) have thrived, while those without (Burrell and May0 have looked less good.

Ashton was playing well for England. He then lost form. Rather than dropping him the England management persisted with him making things worse. They then dropped him. Now he has regained his form they will not pick him because of his performances when he was out of form. This is just dull.

This is only one example of England management ignoring form. Were it not for injuries Jonathan Joseph would never had made the team however good his form.

Except that for at least some of the 3 years he was out of form for England, he was in form for Saints and Sarries.

beshocked wrote:Yappysnap how long is Yarde going to use that excuse?

That was the one he used for LI. It's easier to shine in a poorly performing team as a player can stand out like Parisse for Italy or Pennell for Worcester.

You can be a good team but doesn't necessarily mean you'll perform.

Look at Burns - he's moved to Leicester yet he's not yet kicked on.

I think next season will be very important for Yarde, he won't be new then. Quins may not be so terrible and our gameplan might use him better.

He'll need to do better next season.

Dean Ryan:

Word seems to be Jack Nowell is likely to replace Jonny May now the memory of the Gloucester wing’s try against New Zealand does not quite burn so brightly. However, that would mean overlooking the more rounded talents and much improved club form of Chris Ashton.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2015/feb/20/six-nations-dean-ryan-verdict

I think when even a rugby correspondent for one of our national papers notes Ashton's talent, we can put to bed the idea that he is somehow underrated. If he doesn't make the next World Cup squad, that still wouldn't make him underrated. It would put him in the company of players like Austin Healey, Graham Rowntree, Mathew Tait and James Simpson Daniel.

Another of Ashton's strengths is that we know he can take a good punch.