Scarlets v Munster

First topic message reminder :

Only 14 players missing for the Scarlets this weekend.


Scarlets Munster
15. Jordan Williams 15. Felix Jones
14. Harry Robinson 14. Andrew Conway
13. Regan King 13. Keith Earls
12. Hadleigh Parkes 12. Denis Hurley (capt)
11. Michael Tagicakibau 11. Luke O'Dea
10. Steven Shingler 10. Ian Keatley
9. Aled Davies 9. Duncan Williams
1. Phil John 1. Dave Kilcoyne
2. Ken Owens ( 2. Kevin O'Byrne
3. Peter Edwards 3. Stephen Archer
4. Lewis Rawlins 4. Donncha O'Callaghan
5. Johan Snyman 5. Billy Holland
6. Aaron Shingler 6. Dave O'Callaghan
7. James Davies 7. Tommy O'Donnell
8. John Barclay 8. CJ Stander
Replacements
16. Ryan Elias 16. Eusebio Guinazu
17. Rob Evans 17. John Ryan
18. Jacobie Adriaanse 18. BJ Botha
19. George Earle 19. Jack O'Donoghue
20. Rob McCusker 20. Paddy Butler
21. Gareth Davies 21. Neil Cronin
22. Rhys Priestland 22. JJ Hanrahan
23. Adam Warren 23. Ivan Dineen

Sin - there you go with your sweeping again. I DO realise it, I DID explain to people non-rugby fans that technically it was a spot on call. But hey ho keep up the good work eh.

The Welsh problem with Rolland is that he didn't turn a blind eye. At least Tana didn't get any death threats from us.

He doesn't turn a blind eye?

Have him check Bismarck du Plessis tackle on Dan Carter and still issue a yellow in 2013.

The man is blind when he wants to be.

Sin é wrote:

The Saint wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:BREAKING! I just seen a SA ref was in charge of the Stomers v Blues game! Could SA be in on all this as well? The conspiracy grows deeper...

Fupp me, no disrespect but your Irish really are the biggest bunch of tools I have ever dealt with.  People may find it hard to like you because, lets face it never willing to let anything drop.

To be fair they have finally let the whole dropping BOD for an in-form (at the time, long time ago now...) JD2 thing go. Apart from Rodders, who I'm convinced is actually Keith Wood. I understand your frustrations on here with some of these dimwits SS, but you're better than this comment. If necessary just do a Notch by bringing out the red pen and sticking up for your fellow fans even if it does seem biased .

Well maybe its time some Welsh fans got over Sam Warburton correctly getting a red card from Allain Rolland. Isn't that where all this 'Irish refs are cheats' has come from?  

We got over it when clarity on the ruling was provided. Not sure why you're asking me that question.

Funny that when Russell should have received a red card last week, that every non-welsh person complained that a yellow was harsh. Wonder if fans will get over that?

Sin é wrote: At least Tana didn't get any death threats from us.

One could understand if he did get some. What I don't understand is why JD2 got death threats when he ousted BOD in Lions-gate 2013? I guess we'll be here all day at this.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Sin - there you go with your sweeping again.  I DO realise it, I DID explain to people non-rugby fans that technically it was a spot on call.  But hey ho keep up the good work eh.

You are in the minority of one though. I think its pretty serious when a ref gets death threats for a correct decision.

Every Welsh rugby message board you read, if an Irish team wins, its because the 'Irish were cheating' (including the ref).

I notice on Scarlett Fever that someone claims that Munster hate Nigel Owens - could you ever point out to them that Munster (and all Irish teams) LOVE Nigel Owens. He is a great ref.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Fly, you know exactly what I mean.  


Like I say its double standards, its acceptable to send out a sweeping statement about Welsh fans being whingers, yet it is not acceptable to call the Irish tool in a sweeping statement.  Why?  

p.s. I chose vocal over mouthy/opinionated/gobby, maybe I shouldn't have.

Do I?  Do I know what you mean?

You mean I should know your intention is not to insult the entire Irish nation but to take a pot shot at the particular fans here who irk you?  Fine and reasonable.  
Then why couldn't/can't you see the same meaning coming from the other side.  Pot shots directed at 'Welshness' to take personal pot shots at particular fans who irk them?

Then you go on to question the 'double standards' of one side making sweeping statements and then not accepting sweeping statements in return.  You ask 'Why?'

Because such a question might be evidence of treble standards?

I mean that if generalised statements directed at the Welsh in derogative terms becomes offensive to you (and undoubtedly they should do) then why would you cheapen your higher-moral ground by throwing back a sweeping generalised view of Irish posters?  Afterall, if innocent Welsh people get caught up in a generalised assault on their 'Welshness' - then innocent Irish people will get caught up in a generalised sweepingly critical view of them.

So treble standards might be an issue.  


I don't care really though.  Freedom of speech is more important to me than telling someone to shut up because they're 'hurtin' my feelings'.  People can say what they like.  It's for others here to ban opinions - not me.  And if I was in charge of banning opinions, I wouldn't ban a single one

So to get back to the DETAIL - not the sweeping generalities.  

The detail is that some Welsh fans grieve at what they see as constant reffing decisions that seems to always go against them.  Some Welsh fans have alluded to those incidents and games as being all too familiar a sequence to be mere chance.  Some Welsh fans have suggested it's a conspiracy designed by the Irish to prop up the Irish because the Irish RUN the Pro12.  It's there Scarlets - that's what some Welsh fans openly say....and have been saying and insinuating for some years now.  It's there in print, in b&W...the jokes about Irish refs and corruption (sometimes masked as 'inadequate' - but more often called a 'design' imposed on the 'Welsh' by the 'Irish')

So there are the generalities.  The accusations about corruption aren't directed at the other partners in the Pro12...nope.  It has been specifically 'Welsh' posters' making specific implied or outright accusations at specifically the 'Irish' contingent of Pro12 - the IRFU and its refs.

So again........................... is it a surprise that Irish posters would react negatively to such a slur?  Is it a surprise that Irish posters would home in on the main propagators of the corruption theory?
I've asked Chunky time and time again - are the Welsh equal partners in the Pro12 - equally organising the event, the timing, the schedules, the venues, the sponsorship?  And I've asked him IF NOT, THEN WHY NOT?  And I've asked him IF THE WELSH ARE BEING BULLIED BY THE IRISH - WHY DO THEY TAKE IT?

All I'm getting back is that Welsh fans have been 'VOCAL' - vocal in their disgruntlement at how their teams are being treated and mad about the Finals always going to Ireland etc.

That's fans.  I'm not interested in fans opinions.  I hear them here all the time.  I don't need to ask specific questions about them.  I know Welsh fans opinions.  I repeat - the question concerns the men in suits who control Welsh rugby.  Do they sit in Pro12 offices and not question or query or protest against any of the 'wrong' that's been done to them?  Do they just quietly do the bidding of the IRFU?

And again - the final point.  IF the Welsh regions feel cheated on by the systems of the Pro12, and IF they are limited in what they can protest about by their own relationship with the WRU- then that also becomes an EXCLUSIVELY WELSH ISSUE.

Don't blame the Irish for the refs if the WRU or Regions don't put in formal protests.  I want to hear about formal protests not fan's opinions.  

Don't blame the Irish for the Pro12 structures IF the Welsh come to meetings and say nothing.  I want it proven to me that the Welsh representatives say nothing at meetings and don't vote for present structures and media detail.  Again, I don't want to hear fan's opinions on what goes on there, I want confirmation of frustrations by either WRU or the Regions themselves.  

And don't blame the Irish for the bad and strained relations between the Regions and their Union.  If such is the continuing case then that's a matter for the Welsh rugby going public and their organisations.  We're not responsible for any of that.

That's all I've ever said.  It's all I'll continue to say. And I personally will reserve the right to address most of those points continually at Chunky because it is Chunky who attacks everything that moves in a Pro12 context simply because he hates the very idea of it.  His agenda is to get rid of it - period - and therefore his methods are to highlight the 'eternal injustices' and the deceitful institutionalised corruption of the Irish.  It serves his purpose to darken the tone and sew constant 'mistrust'.

Yawn.

The Saint wrote:

Sin é wrote: At least Tana didn't get any death threats from us.

One could understand if he did get some. What I don't understand is why JD2 got death threats when he ousted BOD in Lions-gate 2013? I guess we'll be here all day at this.

Someone threatened to 'break his legs' on twitter.

Davies said: “There was a lot of stuff on Twitter but I tried not to take too much notice of it. I had some good advice from players like Mike Phillips who just told me to ignore it.
“I was just grateful to have been given the opportunity to win the series. I did get a bit of verbal abuse and people wanting to break my legs and stuff. But I didn’t really care.

Rolland couldn't go to Wales to ref a game (loss of income) for a couple of years. Davies played the following season in Ireland.

The Saint wrote:Yawn.

Yep, you hate it when someone addresses everything in the one post.

That's not playing fair, is it.

I should pretend the Welsh have no suits who turn up to meetings. I should play the argumentative game and accept that the Welsh fans control all regional opinions.

Yeah, and JD2 and Gats feelings were hurt. Not willing to accept your lot were out of order then?

SecretFly wrote:

All I'm getting back is that Welsh fans have been 'VOCAL' - vocal in their disgruntlement at how their teams are being treated and mad about the Finals always going to Ireland etc.

That's fans.  I'm not interested in fans opinions.  I hear them here all the time.  I don't need to ask specific questions about them.  I know Welsh fans opinions.  I repeat - the question concerns the men in suits who control Welsh rugby.  Do they sit in Pro12 offices and not question or query or protest against any of the 'wrong' that's been done to them?  Do they just quietly do the bidding of the IRFU?

I've told you time and time again that the welsh regions are powerless to do anything because the celtic accord is run by people that don't reflect their wishes. You choose to ignore it then say I didn't answer the question. I've even told you that PRW have voiced concerns over the broadcast deal. You chose to ignore that too.

Don't blame the Irish for the refs if the WRU or Regions don't put in formal protests.  I want to hear about formal protests not fan's opinions.  

I personally know it to be true that the Welsh regions have sent copies of inadequate pro12 refereeing performances to the authorities previously.

Don't blame the Irish for the Pro12 structures IF the Welsh come to meetings and say nothing.  I want it proven to me that the Welsh representatives say nothing at meetings and don't vote for present structures and media detail.  Again, I don't want to hear fan's opinions on what goes on there, I want confirmation of frustrations by either WRU or the Regions themselves.  

see above. the regions hands are tied because the Irish and until now Roger Lewis are content with keeping their heads held underwater.

His agenda is to get rid of it - period - and therefore his methods are to highlight the 'eternal injustices' and the deceitful institutionalised corruption of the Irish.  It serves his purpose to darken the tone and sew constant 'mistrust'.

cowpat. My agenda is not to get rid of it, but to get out of it.

You lot love it. So I hope you continue to play in it for centuries.

SecretFly wrote:

The Saint wrote:Yawn.

Yep, you hate it when someone addresses everything in the one post.

That's not playing fair, is it.

I should pretend the Welsh have no suits who turn up to meetings.  I should play the argumentative game and accept that the Welsh fans control all regional opinions.

I does make it damn hard to pick exact points to bicker with.

As to the suits etc, I think the long running issues from the dawn of pro rugby up until last night (Roger Lewis standing down come Oct) and the whole circus that will follow, would point to there being plenty of suits in Welsh rugby, and also that the suits that are involved at Union and Regional level are not on the same page on the major issues even now.

It was Gatland who received a picture of somebody hanging, wasn't it? What about Duncan McRae receiving death threats? Still, I'm sure Irish people won't do death threats, much like they'll never boo a kicker.

Scarlet, and do you know what. The soap opera of Welsh rugby will continue with or without Roger Lewis. Only a looper like David Moffett will take that poisoned challenge of a job.

Risca Rev wrote:It was Gatland who received a picture of somebody hanging, wasn't it? What about Duncan McRae receiving death threats? Still, I'm sure Irish people won't do death threats, much like they'll never boo a kicker.

The Irish NEVER boo kickers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NdvuYcvk5k

Risca Rev wrote:It was Gatland who received a picture of somebody hanging, wasn't it? What about Duncan McRae receiving death threats? Still, I'm sure Irish people won't do death threats, much like they'll never boo a kicker.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

I've told you time and time again that the welsh regions are powerless to do anything because the celtic accord is run by people that don't reflect their wishes. You choose to ignore it then say I didn't answer the question. I've even told you that PRW have voiced concerns over the broadcast deal. You chose to ignore that too.

I've told you time and time again - that's your problem.  The Irish part of the Pro12 don't organise or control the Welsh bit.  The Welsh bit is having big family battles of its own.  That's nothing to do with us.  And if the IRFU DID try to get an opinion in on purely domestic Welsh rugby structures, they'd be told pretty damn quickly where to shove their opinions - both by the WRU and the Regions together.  Indeed, that might unite them - briefly.

But the point remains that the Welsh are responsible as a whole (WRU/Regions) for the representatives they bring to Pro12.  IRFU's obligation then is to deal with those representatives.  It does.
Wales is responsible for the representatives it send to Pro12, not us.

Chunky why exactly do you think the Welsh regions are getting shafted by the league? Is it the kick off times? Leinster had to play the Dragons at home at the same time as Wales played in the 6N which resulted in our lowest attendence in years and thus a significant loss of income.

I doubt the IRFU demanded that kick off time...

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Chunky why exactly do you think the Welsh regions are getting shafted by the league? Is it the kick off times? Leinster had to play the Dragons at home at the same time as Wales played in the 6N which resulted in our lowest attendence in years and thus a significant loss of income.

I doubt the IRFU demanded that kick off time...

I am not typing this out for the 20th time. Plenty of threads on it.

SecretFly wrote:

I've told you time and time again - that's your problem.  The Irish part of the Pro12 don't organise or control the Welsh bit.  The Welsh bit is having big family battles of its own.  That's nothing to do with us.  And if the IRFU DID try to get an opinion in on purely domestic Welsh rugby structures, they'd be told pretty damn quickly where to shove their opinions - both by the WRU and the Regions together.  Indeed, that might unite them - briefly.

But the point remains that the Welsh are responsible as a whole (WRU/Regions) for the representatives they bring to Pro12.  IRFU's obligation then is to deal with those representatives.  It does.
Wales is responsible for the representatives it send to Pro12, not us.

As briefly as possible:

The IRFU control the Irish clubs. Therefore they are happy to run a league that suits the Unions. The Scottish too. The Welsh rugby Union doesn't care about the regions so goes along with whatever. So they all pander to whatever the Irish say they want. And the losers are the Welsh because they have the balls to remain independent businesses. The Irish are therefore happy to see the Welsh regions struggle to tread water in any way, shape or form. And everybody else walks on by.

That's without even mentioning the officials.

So its not the league that is the problem its the WRU?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:So its not the league that is the problem its the WRU?

No, it's the Irish.

Control freaks.

Pete330v2 wrote:"So to Sin e and co I will just remind them about throwing stones in glass houses etc, and to posters on the Munster fans forum that I really can't be ars@d to join the site to reply to. Get a life."

A very good example of said glass house, telling others to get a life when it is indeed yourself who should. Oh and grow up and get a grasp of reality. Professional referees for all their failings and idioms do not favour one side against another and if they did they would be reffing schools cup rugby.

So would you care to actually offer an opinion on any of the points raised regarding Phillips performance, possibly just the stamping incident as it was plain to see he did not want to act. Or maybe the general racist tone of the Munster forum, the vitriolic remarks aimed at West Wales on there are even worse than found on the Pontypridd sites were they blame the Scarlet's for their loss of a regional team.

In fact the whole theory of Celtic brothers in arms is made a mockery of on sites like that and increasingly more so on this one too, it is the main reason I rarely bother to post on the site any longer. What's growing in its place is at best a dislike between the sets of fans on either side of the water and at worst is obsession and borders on hatred with some more extreme posters.

My original post as I have said was borne of frustration, do I really believe the IRFU are fiddling results???   Not really no, do I believe the repeated draw games situation is an indicator of match rigging around betting syndicates?? Yes I do, cricket and football have both proven this in their fields, it would be very naïve to think it is not going on in rugby.

The atmosphere in the stadium on Saturday did turn pretty hostile, aimed at all the officials on the field but mainly at the referee, even the South stand that is usually docile bordering on dormant, were on their feet baying hostilities towards Dudley Phillips by midway through the 2nd half.
Had the referee been someone like Patterson or Mitrea then the situation would never have got to that extent, there will always be a little pocket of fans that shout "cheat" or "how much you get ref" at every game regardless of who the team are, or even what the score is, but when its clearly undeserved they are generally either ignored or told to sit down and shut up, last Saturdays performance however was so poor that a substantial number of the crowd that are both knowledgeable and generally silent, other than to cheer the team on or applaud quality play from either team, choose to join in and let Phillips know what they thought of him. I'm not proud of the fact that I was someone who joined in with it myself, after previously requesting on Scarlet fever several times for the regular element to stop doing it, however how anyone can defend his performance as "not bad" is beyond my comprehension.

It will be very interesting to see what sort of welcome the relatively inexperienced young Welsh ref Whitehouse will get in Ulster on Friday night, I am sure he will just receive a round of applause the 1st time he gives a decision against the home side. Or maybe not.

On a side note, what the hell were those horrible day glow green jerseys all about?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

The IRFU control the Irish clubs. Therefore they are happy to run a league that suits the Unions. The Scottish too. The Welsh rugby Union doesn't care about the regions so goes along with whatever. So they all pander to whatever the Irish say they want. And the losers are the Welsh because they have the balls to remain independent businesses. The Irish are therefore happy to see the Welsh regions struggle to tread water in any way, shape or form. And everybody else walks on by.

That's without even mentioning the officials.

There is Nothing that states that Rugby Union in sub-International contest MUST be 'independent' or 'private' Club based.

Nothing in any rules of the actual sport demands that the Ideal delivery of a club game requires Private men wielding private money.

Indeed, it's a misnomer as all sport when it gets to the Professional level becomes 'Unionised' - ie - the 'free-standing privately run businesses' must conform to a platform of rules tying them into common regulations, common penalties, structured fines, common control of negotiating media rights (PRL/LNR etc) and common distribution of earnings.
To say the PRL does not operate effectively as a Union over the AP privately owned clubs - block majority view voting on funding, sponsorship, rule changes etc - is an evasion of the truth.

But again, that's your business how you eventually want control of Regions worked out.  It won't matter to the IRFU or the Scottish Union or the Italians who the Welsh finally choose to represent them at the Pro12 table. Whoever it is - be it the WRU or the Regional Body - it will in effect be another 'Union' with authority to negotiate on behalf of the four Welsh regions.

That's your business how all that pans out.  But you constantly deflect Welsh inner turmoil at us Irish.  I don't buy the deal or the blame.

Risca Rev wrote:It was Gatland who received a picture of somebody hanging, wasn't it? What about Duncan McRae receiving death threats? Still, I'm sure Irish people won't do death threats, much like they'll never boo a kicker.

Interesting that all these incidents happen to have occurred on Lions Tours. Even though Irish teams have had some mighty dust-ups, there is never a word about them. We Irish love a good dust-up! Ever see the Battle of Croke Park (Australia v Ireland Aussie Rules game). None of the Pro Australian players got any death threats despite beating up amateur players who had to go to work the next day in their real jobs.

Those threats could have come from anyone bearing in mind it was the Lions who were playing.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

I've told you time and time again - that's your problem.  The Irish part of the Pro12 don't organise or control the Welsh bit.  The Welsh bit is having big family battles of its own.  That's nothing to do with us.  And if the IRFU DID try to get an opinion in on purely domestic Welsh rugby structures, they'd be told pretty damn quickly where to shove their opinions - both by the WRU and the Regions together.  Indeed, that might unite them - briefly.

But the point remains that the Welsh are responsible as a whole (WRU/Regions) for the representatives they bring to Pro12.  IRFU's obligation then is to deal with those representatives.  It does.
Wales is responsible for the representatives it send to Pro12, not us.

As briefly as possible:

The IRFU control the Irish clubs. Therefore they are happy to run a league that suits the Unions. The Scottish too. The Welsh rugby Union doesn't care about the regions so goes along with whatever. So they all pander to whatever the Irish say they want. And the losers are the Welsh because they have the balls to remain independent businesses. The Irish are therefore happy to see the Welsh regions struggle to tread water in any way, shape or form. And everybody else walks on by.

That's without even mentioning the officials.

Why are the Provinces so different to the Regions in their needs.

I'd imagine that they all have the same aims - be successful and not broke. It just seems that the Provinces are better run than the Regions (with regard to success & support and financially).

Exaxtly Welsh rugby is an organizational mess and somehow it is Ireland fault.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:If Newspapers are to be belived then the Guiness deal is worth a couple of million more at least. Supposedly the Rabo deal was worth basically nothing. Remember there were a few companies bidding for the rights so it would have certainly been a good increase.

This is more Sin e's area. Im sure he could help us here.

Can you give me a link to one of those newspaper snippets?

Thanks.

Still waiting.

Where has the idea come from that the Provinces are to blame for the organisational mess in Welsh rugby? Or are these remarks generally aimed at 1 poster?
This has been done to death but I don't think anyone is under any illusion that the problems lie firmly at the feet of both the WRU and the regions Benefactors/ owners. The average fan doesn't really give a hoot who actually owns the club they support as long as that owner has the best interests of the clubs at heart.
The WRU, otherwise known as Roger Lewis thinks he should have full control of professional rugby in Wales, the problem with this for the fans is most of us don't trust him not to reduce the number of teams even further, the existing owners don't see why they should walk away with nothing after ploughing their own money into these clubs in the form of loans etc, the problem with this for the fans is that none of these benefactors can actually afford to genuinely bankroll a region that is reliant on the WRU for a large chunk of their income.
I personally don't see any solution to this until the MS mortgage is paid off and Lewis retires with his big fat bonus, hopefully then the benefactors can be placated with seats on the WRU in return for letting them take over what with a little luck will be better established regions by then.

Can't find anything with how much the sponsor is worth but the SKY deal gave a significant increase on revenue according to Joe.ie.
"They will show games on Saturdays and according to reports the new deal increases the money the Rabo earns from TV revenue by 50 per cent."

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Can't find anything with how much the sponsor is worth but the SKY deal gave a significant increase on revenue according to Joe.ie.
"They will show games on Saturdays and according to reports the new deal increases the money the Rabo earns from TV revenue by 50 per cent."

Yes that's the broadcast deal. We were told in this thread that newspapers reported Guinness paid a couple of more million than Rabo did to sponsor the league.

I'd like to see those newspaper reports.

2ndtimeround wrote:Where has the idea come from that the Provinces are to blame for the organisational mess in Welsh rugby? Or are these remarks generally aimed at 1 poster?
This has been done to death but I don't think anyone is under any illusion that the problems lie firmly at the feet of both the WRU and the regions Benefactors/ owners. The average fan doesn't really give a hoot who actually owns the club they support as long as that owner has the best interests of the clubs at heart.
The WRU, otherwise known as Roger Lewis thinks he should have full control of professional rugby in Wales, the problem with this for the fans is most of us don't trust him not to reduce the number of teams even further, the existing owners don't see why they should walk away with nothing after ploughing their own money into these clubs in the form of loans etc, the problem with this for the fans is that none of these benefactors can actually afford to genuinely bankroll a region that is reliant on the WRU for a large chunk of their income.
I personally don't see any solution to this until the MS mortgage is paid off and Lewis retires with his big fat bonus, hopefully then the benefactors can be placated with seats on the WRU in return for letting them take over what with a little luck will be better established regions by then.

Clarity and reason.

It's doable folks.

Chunky Norwich wrote:The IRFU control the Irish clubs.

OK

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Therefore they are happy to run a league that suits the Unions.

Fine

Chunky Norwich wrote:
The Scottish too.

Most likely

Chunky Norwich wrote:
The Welsh rugby Union doesn't care about the regions

Very likely. Perhaps there are 2 sides to the story there, but that's none of my business.

Chunky Norwich wrote:
so goes along with whatever.

[departing from reality alert]What? We are departing from reality now. speculation at best.

Chunky Norwich wrote:
So they all pander to whatever the Irish say they want.

We have drifted from the real world to what goes on inside your head now

Chunky Norwich wrote:
And the losers are the Welsh because they have the balls to remain independent businesses.

While I have my sympathies for the position the regions find themselves in they have at least in part contributed to that situation.

Chunky Norwich wrote:
The Irish are therefore happy to see the Welsh regions struggle to tread water in any way, shape or form.

Yeah because we really want to play in a league with sh1t teams who don't even want to play us, and are a major factor in the sh1tness of said league.

Amazing the conclusions you can come to with a short trip out of reality though. I see where the roots of your conspiracy theories stem from

Chunky Norwich wrote:And everybody else walks on by.

Or if they don't walk on by and want to find out anything about it, they get told to fock off, that it's none of their business and they could never understand because they are not Welsh (which may actually be true)

So what are we supposed to do?

Walk on by..... We're konts

Poke our noses in...... we're konts.

Open our eyes in the morning and draw breath......we're konts.

Not seeing a scenario where we could win here mate.

2ndtimeround wrote:Where has the idea come from that the Provinces are to blame for the organisational mess in Welsh rugby? Or are these remarks generally aimed at 1 poster?
This has been done to death but I don't think anyone is under any illusion that the problems lie firmly at the feet of both the WRU and the regions Benefactors/ owners. The average fan doesn't really give a hoot who actually owns the club they support as long as that owner has the best interests of the clubs at heart.
The WRU, otherwise known as Roger Lewis thinks he should have full control of professional rugby in Wales, the problem with this for the fans is most of us don't trust him not to reduce the number of teams even further, the existing owners don't see why they should walk away with nothing after ploughing their own money into these clubs in the form of loans etc, the problem with this for the fans is that none of these benefactors can actually afford to genuinely bankroll a region that is reliant on the WRU for a large chunk of their income.
I personally don't see any solution to this until the MS mortgage is paid off and Lewis retires with his big fat bonus, hopefully then the benefactors can be placated with seats on the WRU in return for letting them take over what with a little luck will be better established regions by then.

I haven't seen too many posts from Welsh posters disagreeing with Chunky - so don't be surprised if we think that is the general view of Irish rugby in Wales. Gwlad is also informative as to how a lot of Welsh rugby view Ireland

If I was Roger Lewis, I wouldn't give the regions another penny because it would be throwing money away. The Regions seem to be incredibly poorly run. They should not be reliant on the WRU to bankroll them. Its the supporters who should be funding them by going to games, buying season tickets and jerseys etc. etc. Thats how the Provinces have to do it.

Sin é wrote: Its the supporters who should be funding them by going to games, buying season tickets and jerseys etc. etc. Thats how the Provinces have to do it.

Doesn't the IRFU pay 28m Euros a year to pro player wages?

The WRU don't bank roll the regions per se, the money paid to the regions by the WRU comes from 2 sources, one is to pay for player release for Wales to be able to put a team on the field which is a business deal not a hand out, the other is the TV revenue money that is rightfully the regions money in the 1st place but the WRU insist it passes through their coffers 1st for various reasons, one of which seems to be to falsely inflate the funding they can claim the regions are provided with.
The only funding coming from the WRU that is not automatically legally the regions money anyway is the subsidy provided to each region toward the costs of running an academy.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote: Its the supporters who should be funding them by going to games, buying season tickets and jerseys etc. etc. Thats how the Provinces have to do it.

Doesn't the IRFU pay 28m Euros a year to pro player wages?

A model you might care to mimic?

Can't have it both ways, Chunky.  Either you want your regions and smaller clubs to survive by getting their hands on more money - perhaps the IRFU way - or you're prepared to see the regions die on the Principle that they are privately run concerns who should not be told what to do by the Union (but who will take any money they can get from that same Union)?

Regions are either stand-alone autonomous entities - taking no money from WRU - or they are under the influence of WRU in return for that money.  You can't just say 'we want more money from the WRU but f**k off in trying to command what we do with it'.  If the private 'owners' haven't the funds to keep a region afloat on their own then they are in truth not the owners - the paymasters are.

2ndtimeround wrote:The WRU don't bank roll the regions per se, the money paid to the regions by the WRU comes from 2 sources, one is to pay for player release for Wales to be able to put a team on the field which is a business deal not a hand out, the other is the TV revenue money that is rightfully the regions money in the 1st place but the WRU insist it passes through their coffers 1st for various reasons, one of which seems to be to falsely inflate the funding they can claim the regions are provided with.
The only funding coming from the WRU that is not automatically legally the regions money anyway is the subsidy provided to each region toward the costs of running an academy.

Then why do the WRU get so much criticism for being the massive cog in the works that dictates whether the Regions are viable or not?

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote: Its the supporters who should be funding them by going to games, buying season tickets and jerseys etc. etc. Thats how the Provinces have to do it.

Doesn't the IRFU pay 28m Euros a year to pro player wages?

A model you might care to mimic?

Can't have it both ways, Chunky.  Either you want your regions and smaller clubs to survive by getting their hands on more money - perhaps the IRFU way - or you're prepared to see the regions die on the Principle that they are privately run concerns who should not be told what to do by the Union (but who will take any money they can get from that same Union)?

Regions are either stand-alone autonomous entities - taking no money from WRU - or they are under the influence of WRU in return for that money.  You can't just say 'we want more money from the WRU but f**k off in trying to command what we do with it'.  If the private 'owners' haven't the funds to keep a region afloat on their own then they are in truth not the owners - the paymasters are.

What a pile of Poopie. The WRU pay for services rendered. i.e - the regions are the suppliers. It's not a "handout".

A handout is something given for free.

SecretFly wrote:

2ndtimeround wrote:The WRU don't bank roll the regions per se, the money paid to the regions by the WRU comes from 2 sources, one is to pay for player release for Wales to be able to put a team on the field which is a business deal not a hand out, the other is the TV revenue money that is rightfully the regions money in the 1st place but the WRU insist it passes through their coffers 1st for various reasons, one of which seems to be to falsely inflate the funding they can claim the regions are provided with.
The only funding coming from the WRU that is not automatically legally the regions money anyway is the subsidy provided to each region toward the costs of running an academy.

Then why do the WRU get so much criticism for being the massive cog in the works that dictates whether the Regions are viable or not?

Because they tried to close them down?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote: Its the supporters who should be funding them by going to games, buying season tickets and jerseys etc. etc. Thats how the Provinces have to do it.

Doesn't the IRFU pay 28m Euros a year to pro player wages?

No.

The current paymasters general been SKY TV!!. Oh feck were all controlled by Murdoch, everything must be his fault.

Chunky Norwich wrote:[

What a pile of Poopie. The WRU pay for services rendered. i.e - the regions are the suppliers. It's not a "handout".

A handout is something given for free.

cowpat...without the WRU, the regions couldn't afford to keep the 'supplies' in the country. The Regions Increasingly can't afford the 'supplies' and have to be subsidised to keep them.

And I'm not hitting at the Welsh. Even us Irish are finding the grind difficult. The money don't spread like it used to in the old days.

We're back to viability. Are the regions viable as independent outfits or are they reliant on subsidies?

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote: Its the supporters who should be funding them by going to games, buying season tickets and jerseys etc. etc. Thats how the Provinces have to do it.

Doesn't the IRFU pay 28m Euros a year to pro player wages?

No.

Why does it say that in the IRFU accounts then?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Then why do the WRU get so much criticism for being the massive cog in the works that dictates whether the Regions are viable or not?

Because they tried to close them down?[/quote]

Because they're trying to make them viable?

SecretFly wrote:
Because they're trying to make them viable?

No, because they were trying to close them down.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

2ndtimeround wrote:The WRU don't bank roll the regions per se, the money paid to the regions by the WRU comes from 2 sources, one is to pay for player release for Wales to be able to put a team on the field which is a business deal not a hand out, the other is the TV revenue money that is rightfully the regions money in the 1st place but the WRU insist it passes through their coffers 1st for various reasons, one of which seems to be to falsely inflate the funding they can claim the regions are provided with.
The only funding coming from the WRU that is not automatically legally the regions money anyway is the subsidy provided to each region toward the costs of running an academy.

Then why do the WRU get so much criticism for being the massive cog in the works that dictates whether the Regions are viable or not?

Because they tried to close them down?

Unfortunately this is correct, Roger Lewis has publicly stated he would like to reduce the number of existing regions. When the Ospreys were facing been wound up the WRU attempted to enter secret negotiations with the Scarlet's to take their players rather than attempt to offer help to what is after all our most successful region. There are the shoots of change sprouting at the WRU but I doubt the organisation will be trusted with the regions until Lewis moves on. I do believe the best long term future for the regions will come from Union ownership but there will have to be some contractual commitment to actually keep them in existence.

.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
Because they're trying to make them viable?

No, because they were trying to close them down.

You can't stay open if you have 'supplies' walking out the door without being paid for.
The regions were losing players and losing earning potential that said players brought with them.
I saw the WRU saying we'll pay you (the regions) to hold on to our supplies. We'll pay you to be the fridge that we'll store our players in until we need them for International.

But nope - that was interference and couldn't be stomached by the 'owners' who felt viability shouldn't come with conditions attached.

There are always conditions attached when money travels from one place to shore up another.

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
Because they're trying to make them viable?

No, because they were trying to close them down.

You can't stay open if you have 'supplies' walking out the door without being paid for.
The regions were losing players and losing earning potential that said players brought with them.
I saw the WRU saying we'll pay you (the regions) to hold on to our supplies.  We'll pay you to be the fridge that we'll store our players in until we need them for International.

But nope - that was interference and couldn't be stomached by the 'owners' who felt viability shouldn't come with conditions attached.

There are always conditions attached when money travels from one place to shore up another.

You're so entrenched in your "Union owned clubs is the best way" mindset, that no amount of reading what me or anyone else types will EVER make you think any other way is possible let alone viable.

It's the Irish way though. I don't blame you personally.