Scarlets v Munster

by Chunky Norwich Fri 20 Feb 2015, 12:24 pm

First topic message reminder :

Only 14 players missing for the Scarlets this weekend.

Scarlets Munster
15. Jordan Williams 15. Felix Jones
14. Harry Robinson 14. Andrew Conway
13. Regan King 13. Keith Earls
12. Hadleigh Parkes 12. Denis Hurley (capt)
11. Michael Tagicakibau 11. Luke O'Dea
10. Steven Shingler 10. Ian Keatley
9. Aled Davies 9. Duncan Williams
1. Phil John 1. Dave Kilcoyne
2. Ken Owens ( 2. Kevin O'Byrne
3. Peter Edwards 3. Stephen Archer
4. Lewis Rawlins 4. Donncha O'Callaghan
5. Johan Snyman 5. Billy Holland
6. Aaron Shingler 6. Dave O'Callaghan
7. James Davies 7. Tommy O'Donnell
8. John Barclay 8. CJ Stander
Replacements
16. Ryan Elias 16. Eusebio Guinazu
17. Rob Evans 17. John Ryan
18. Jacobie Adriaanse 18. BJ Botha
19. George Earle 19. Jack O'Donoghue
20. Rob McCusker 20. Paddy Butler
21. Gareth Davies 21. Neil Cronin
22. Rhys Priestland 22. JJ Hanrahan
23. Adam Warren 23. Ivan Dineen

by SecretFly Tue 24 Feb 2015, 3:08 pm

2ndtimeround wrote:

Unfortunately this is correct, Roger Lewis has publicly stated he would like to reduce the number of existing regions. When the Ospreys were facing been wound up the WRU attempted to enter secret negotiations with the Scarlet's to take their players rather than attempt to offer help to what is after all our most successful region. There are the shoots of change sprouting at the WRU but I doubt the organisation will be trusted with the regions until Lewis moves on. I do believe the best long term future for the regions will come from Union ownership but there will have to be some contractual commitment to actually keep them in existence.

And can I ask you one thing?

What is your specific Region? The one you'd support most.
And if it became WRU owned would your allegiance to it be any less?

Because I think this is where a lot of the friction arises out of. People who have no ownership concerns of their own yet somehow feeling duty bound to protect the 'interests' of current owners and the idea of 'private'.

A region is a region - a club is a club. My region - Leinster - belongs to me. The team belong to me. I don't have a blasted penny invested in it - I don't give a damn about who makes executive money out of it. All that I care about is that it's viable (can afford players and coaches) and that it tries to win things.

Indeed, if it was a strictly 'Private club' I think my sense of belonging and ownership would dwindle bit. I can understand fans wanting their regions to be viable and strong. I can't understand why they seem to insist that viability comes in the guise of 'private ownership'.

by wayne Tue 24 Feb 2015, 3:14 pm

Sin é wrote:
The Saint wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:BREAKING! I just seen a SA ref was in charge of the Stomers v Blues game! Could SA be in on all this as well? The conspiracy grows deeper...
Fupp me, no disrespect but your Irish really are the biggest bunch of tools I have ever dealt with. People may find it hard to like you because, lets face it never willing to let anything drop.

To be fair they have finally let the whole dropping BOD for an in-form (at the time, long time ago now...) JD2 thing go. Apart from Rodders, who I'm convinced is actually Keith Wood. I understand your frustrations on here with some of these dimwits SS, but you're better than this comment. If necessary just do a Notch by bringing out the red pen and sticking up for your fellow fans even if it does seem biased .

Well maybe its time some Welsh fans got over Sam Warburton correctly getting a red card from Allain Rolland. Isn't that where all this 'Irish refs are cheats' has come from?

Sin you need to go back a lot further than 2011 to find where "Irish Refs are cheats" originates, try 1974. Now he really did need to go to Specsavers and generally the Irish Refereeing standard hasn't really improved since that day.

by Sin é Tue 24 Feb 2015, 3:15 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote: Its the supporters who should be funding them by going to games, buying season tickets and jerseys etc. etc. Thats how the Provinces have to do it.

Doesn't the IRFU pay 28m Euros a year to pro player wages?

No.

Why does it say that in the IRFU accounts then?

No. 1 - that 31m last year covers all the operations of the Provinces - not just pro player wages.
No. 2 - the IRFU take all the income from the various competitions the provinces are involved in - and takes a cut from the gate money as well. Last year this income came to 10.3m.

by SecretFly Tue 24 Feb 2015, 3:15 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:

You're so entrenched in your "Union owned clubs is the best way" mindset, that no amount of reading what me or anyone else types will EVER make you think any other way is possible let alone viable.

It's the Irish way though. I don't blame you personally.

Viability!

A team working. That's what I'm entrenched in.

Why does that have to be a 'small bizz man in a sunday suit that has a few pound he wants to invest in a club/region'? I'm entrenched. You're entrenched.

For now (touch wood) one way is working and the other has had tons of problems. You do what you like in Wales but my arguments are coming from a stronger base in realism, given we're both small areas with limited playing resources trying to keep our heads above water.

by Sin é Tue 24 Feb 2015, 3:18 pm

wayne wrote:
Sin é wrote:
The Saint wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:BREAKING! I just seen a SA ref was in charge of the Stomers v Blues game! Could SA be in on all this as well? The conspiracy grows deeper...
Fupp me, no disrespect but your Irish really are the biggest bunch of tools I have ever dealt with. People may find it hard to like you because, lets face it never willing to let anything drop.

To be fair they have finally let the whole dropping BOD for an in-form (at the time, long time ago now...) JD2 thing go. Apart from Rodders, who I'm convinced is actually Keith Wood. I understand your frustrations on here with some of these dimwits SS, but you're better than this comment. If necessary just do a Notch by bringing out the red pen and sticking up for your fellow fans even if it does seem biased .

Well maybe its time some Welsh fans got over Sam Warburton correctly getting a red card from Allain Rolland. Isn't that where all this 'Irish refs are cheats' has come from?

Sin you need to go back a lot further than 2011 to find where "Irish Refs are cheats" originates, try 1974. Now he really did need to go to Specsavers and generally the Irish Refereeing standard hasn't really improved since that day.

How is making a correct call on giving a Welsh Player a Red Card poor refereeing?

by wayne Tue 24 Feb 2015, 3:21 pm

Sin é wrote:
wayne wrote:
Sin é wrote:
The Saint wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:BREAKING! I just seen a SA ref was in charge of the Stomers v Blues game! Could SA be in on all this as well? The conspiracy grows deeper...
Fupp me, no disrespect but your Irish really are the biggest bunch of tools I have ever dealt with. People may find it hard to like you because, lets face it never willing to let anything drop.

To be fair they have finally let the whole dropping BOD for an in-form (at the time, long time ago now...) JD2 thing go. Apart from Rodders, who I'm convinced is actually Keith Wood. I understand your frustrations on here with some of these dimwits SS, but you're better than this comment. If necessary just do a Notch by bringing out the red pen and sticking up for your fellow fans even if it does seem biased .

Well maybe its time some Welsh fans got over Sam Warburton correctly getting a red card from Allain Rolland. Isn't that where all this 'Irish refs are cheats' has come from?

Sin you need to go back a lot further than 2011 to find where "Irish Refs are cheats" originates, try 1974. Now he really did need to go to Specsavers and generally the Irish Refereeing standard hasn't really improved since that day.

How is making a correct call on giving a Welsh Player a Red Card poor refereeing?

Why don't you read what I actually say and then comment on that.

by Chunky Norwich Tue 24 Feb 2015, 3:24 pm

Sin é wrote:

No. 1 - that 31m last year covers all the operations of the Provinces - not just pro player wages.
No. 2 - the IRFU take all the income from the various competitions the provinces are involved in - and takes a cut from the gate money as well. Last year this income came to 10.3m.

Nope.

Page 54
Schedule 3: Professional game costs
Player and management costs = 27.9m Euros

by Sin é Tue 24 Feb 2015, 3:42 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:

No. 1 - that 31m last year covers all the operations of the Provinces - not just pro player wages.
No. 2 - the IRFU take all the income from the various competitions the provinces are involved in - and takes a cut from the gate money as well. Last year this income came to 10.3m.

Nope.

Page 54
Schedule 3: Professional game costs
Player and management costs = 27.9m Euros

OK - lets break that down further. 27.9 - 10.3 = 17.6m (10.3m for particiapation in Chumps Cup & Pro12).
That includes match winning fees etc. for international games, all management of the international team & staff, it pays for David Nucifora who is High Performance Director.

For the 17.6m (divided by 4) the IRFU have full control of everything the Provinces do. For example, Billy Holland has been called into National Camp this week to train - that leaves Munster with one fit lock (DOC) to prepare for the game against Glasgow this week.

(Thats just under £13m sterling!)

Now what do the WRU get for what they contribute to player wages?

by SecretFly Tue 24 Feb 2015, 4:06 pm

Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:

No. 1 - that 31m last year covers all the operations of the Provinces - not just pro player wages.
No. 2 - the IRFU take all the income from the various competitions the provinces are involved in - and takes a cut from the gate money as well. Last year this income came to 10.3m.

Nope.

Page 54
Schedule 3: Professional game costs
Player and management costs = 27.9m Euros

OK - lets break that down further. 27.9 - 10.3 = 17.6m (10.3m for particiapation in Chumps Cup & Pro12).
That includes match winning fees etc. for international games, all management of the international team & staff, it pays for David Nucifora who is High Performance Director.

For the 17.6m (divided by 4) the IRFU have full control of everything the Provinces do. For example, Billy Holland has been called into National Camp this week to train - that leaves Munster with one fit lock (DOC) to prepare for the game against Glasgow this week.

(Thats just under £13m sterling!)

Now what do the WRU get for what they contribute to player wages?

Grief?

by SecretFly Tue 24 Feb 2015, 4:07 pm

...sorry, couldn't resist. You all see how Sin left that there just yearning for a bite!

by Chunky Norwich Tue 24 Feb 2015, 4:09 pm

Sin é wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:

No. 1 - that 31m last year covers all the operations of the Provinces - not just pro player wages.
No. 2 - the IRFU take all the income from the various competitions the provinces are involved in - and takes a cut from the gate money as well. Last year this income came to 10.3m.

Nope.

Page 54
Schedule 3: Professional game costs
Player and management costs = 27.9m Euros

OK - lets break that down further. 27.9 - 10.3 = 17.6m (10.3m for particiapation in Chumps Cup & Pro12).
That includes match winning fees etc. for international games, all management of the international team & staff, it pays for David Nucifora who is High Performance Director.

For the 17.6m (divided by 4) the IRFU have full control of everything the Provinces do. For example, Billy Holland has been called into National Camp this week to train - that leaves Munster with one fit lock (DOC) to prepare for the game against Glasgow this week.

(Thats just under £13m sterling!)

Now what do the WRU get for what they contribute to player wages?

Read this:

The first thing is to layout the structure of Irish Rugby at professional level. It is entirely controlled by the Union. The IRFU own the professional teams. Munster, Ulster, Leinster & Connacht Rugby are all entities it seems who are owned 100% by the IRFU. It is those entities that operate the relevant provincial sides. There are limited companies set up that protect those names, but they are dormant. Those businesses appear to be ‘branches’ of the IRFU.

Reason for arriving at those conclusions? The IRFU accounts. These account for the competition monies for those sides, but unlike the WRU, the outgoings do not go to the four teams, but appear to be spent on players wages (of which more later).

Alongside the rugby sides there, provinces also have Branches that are owned, it seems, by their constituent clubs. The accounts of the branches are not made publically available, but are commented on in the press following AGM report. I have also had a copy of the Leinster Branch Accounts sent to me, which help enormously to understand how professional rugby in Ireland works, and crucially how much money they spend on player wages.

In terms of income, the IRFU appear to account for all the competition monies the 4 provinces get. This totals approximately €11m. The other income of the IRFU appears to derive out of the international game only. Then in schedule 3 to the accounts we are told that player and management costs come to €28.5m. This excludes academy players and coaching support staff (such as U20 coach Mike Ruddock) as they appear to be included in the costs laid out in schedule 4.

So the wage bill for pro players in Ireland is €28.5m, less say €1m for the senior side coaching team.

At the moment in Wales, RRW are asking for £10m between the 4 sides. The four Irish provinces, in 2013 (with similar figures for previous years) received approximately €16.5m over and above competition income. This does give the IRFU MORE control than RRW appear to be happy with, but it does indicate the funding difference.

The remainder of the income for the branch accounts that I have seen for Leinster, states that all other income such as provincial income and ticket monies go through the branch accounts. The Leinster turnover, even without competition monies remember, is over €12m. This is in excess of the top welsh pro team, where competition monies are included.

So if the IRFU pay the players, where does this money go? Well, it seems that the Leinster branch also pay the players (senior ones) to the tune of €2.7m. The coaching staff expense is elsewhere in the accounts.

So, if we stay with Leinster at the moment, if we say the split of the €27.5m between the four provinces is that Connacht get half the other 3. That means that Leinster get the wages of 2/7ths of €27.5m. This is approximately €7.85m. Add in the €2.7m, and you get €10.55m. Or £8.75m. Or more than double the RRW salary cap, and significantly more than the PRL clubs.

I even think it is above the French salary cap.

#foodforthought ’ndy

Conclusions:

1- The Irish provincial sides are not overperforming. They are performing on par with their funding. Maybe even below it.

2- Where the Irish are performing is income generation. The Munster branch turnover is apparently more like €17m.

3- RRW demands for £10m do not seem unreasonable.

4- RRW need to improve their income streams. The WRU should be helping them with this, not hindering them. Part of this would be to empower regions to build relationships with clubs. In Ireland, the branches award significant grants as well as the Union.

by Sin é Tue 24 Feb 2015, 4:32 pm

This seems to agree that the Provinces get 16m Euro over and above competition money.

The author wonders where the money goes?
For starters, Munster have two centres - one in Cork & one in Limerick. They have just built a 26K stadium where they raised most of the money themselves including borrowing 15m from the IRFU.

Leinster have just built a new training centre and Ulster have redeveloped their ground.

Leinster probably have the most disposable cash because they rent the RDS and they have use of the Aviva for a couple of big games every year (which by the way, the IRFU take a cut of - when Leicester played Leinster in the QF of the Heineken Cup, Leicester made more money out of it than Leinster).

And Connacht is now on equal funding (if not more) than the rest of the provinces.

By the way, the IRFU pay all Provincial players a set amount. The Provinces can then top up certain players. For example, the IRFU might have paid Doug Howlett 80K, and Munster would top his wage up with another 200K.

Finally, of course Munster would have a big turnover. Its owns a brand new 26K stadium and a redeveloped one in Cork (which is being officially opened this weekend). Not everything is invested in player wages which is probably what the Welsh Regions would do.

by 2ndtimeround Tue 24 Feb 2015, 5:01 pm

Secrftly. My region are the Scarlet's, I have no interest in who actually owns them, only that whoever controls the club puts the best interests of the club's longevity and success before any personal agenda, with the correct people in charge of the WRU I would love to see Wales adopt a similar model to the IRFU'S but would not want to see any future Chief Exec of the WRU gain the kind of untouchable authority that Lewis has managed to aqquire.
On a positive note I have just heard Roger Lewis will be stepping down after this years world cup. Light at the end of the tunnel indeed. Very Happy

by Sin é Tue 24 Feb 2015, 5:08 pm

I'd say Lewis has an impossible job. Welsh rugby is chaotic. You need a very strong character to run it. The admin version of Gatland would probably suit (i.e., lay down the law and take no Poopie).

by SecretFly Tue 24 Feb 2015, 5:12 pm

Sin é wrote:I'd say Lewis has an impossible job. Welsh rugby is chaotic. You need a very strong character to run it. The admin version of Gatland would probably suit (i.e., lay down the law and take no Poopie).

Moffett????

Oh please let Moffett come back for some more pantomime.

No, I don't want him to ruin Welsh rugby. But I'd just love to see him come back and put his very distinctive hat in the ring. He was a lot of entertainment last year with his Youtubing and shameless self-promotion stints. Let him fail again, but let him entertain for the duration.

by ScarletSpiderman Tue 24 Feb 2015, 5:17 pm

Sin é wrote:I'd say Lewis has an impossible job. Welsh rugby is chaotic. You need a very strong character to run it. The admin version of Gatland would probably suit (i.e., lay down the law and take no Poopie).

Welsh rugby was arguably less chaotic when he took the reigns than it is now. And depending on how you look at things Roger's reign has either been hugely successful and seen championships and debts cleared, or a huge flop seeing the grass roots of the game being killed off, with a number of village teams having to close and/or age grade sides being culled.

I'd say that Roger is the admin version of Gats a real marmite person, with very good/bad arguments about their success.

by The Saint Tue 24 Feb 2015, 5:20 pm

And the numbers at age grade were already quite low before that.

by 2ndtimeround Tue 24 Feb 2015, 5:38 pm

It was Moffett that formed the regions and started the chaos, something needed to be done at the time to make Welsh Rugby competitive again, in hindsight it was done badly for the club level game but arguably formed the foundations of the successful national team.
Lewis's claims to success are also at national level in employing Garland and supposedly strengthening the financial position of the WRU during his tenure, I guess we will find out more about the accounting after he goes and a new CEO comes in, aka Tesco and Dave Lewis taking over, we all know the rest of that story.
With luck whoever takes over will look more at the game from grass roots up and re-invigorate the Welsh love for Rugby as a sport rather than solely target the entertainment market. A well attended Millennium stadium is a must to fund the game in Wales but the future of the game has to take priority over executive bonuses and Barclays bank.

by Sin é Tue 24 Feb 2015, 5:42 pm

Its professionalism that has destroyed amateur rugby, not Lewis. The amateur game isn't going too well in Ireland either.

by Cardiff Dave Tue 24 Feb 2015, 5:56 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:I'd say Lewis has an impossible job. Welsh rugby is chaotic. You need a very strong character to run it. The admin version of Gatland would probably suit (i.e., lay down the law and take no Poopie).

Moffett????

Oh please let Moffett come back for some more pantomime.

No, I don't want him to ruin Welsh rugby. But I'd just love to see him come back and put his very distinctive hat in the ring. He was a lot of entertainment last year with his Youtubing and shameless self-promotion stints. Let him fail again, but let him entertain for the duration.

Did he fail though last time around with regards to today's news?
Certainly was entertaining when he unexpectly appeared out of the ether and the youtube stuff was often cringeworthy. Yeah he didn't get the job as chairman, but was that his real objective? I'm not so sure it was actually. He rattled cages that needed rattling and it worked.

by ScarletSpiderman Tue 24 Feb 2015, 5:57 pm

Sin, without the kids playing every Sunday lunchtime there will be no future for the professional game. If age grade teams (I mean like under 8s up to youth) are allowed to disappear due to lack of interest from the top, the future is going to be pretty bleak.

by 2ndtimeround Tue 24 Feb 2015, 6:03 pm

What Lewis has done is starve them of funding and damage interest in the game with his insistence of arguing everything in public, he tried his best to stop the Regions building links with the smaller clubs for fear of the regions gaining voting power on the exec committee and thereby loosening his grip on the game overall.
We have had the 4 regions in place for almost 12 years now, sufficient time for them to have built strong link and support networks with the smaller clubs around each region, something that would of helped the regions develop an Identity as well as generating interest in the game at grass roots level, this has been prevented, as have other revenue generating opportunities like allowing the regions to play mid week games against International touring sides.
He can't go soon enough IMHO.

by SecretFly Tue 24 Feb 2015, 6:07 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Did he [Moffett] fail though last time around with regards to today's news?
Certainly was entertaining when he unexpectly appeared out of the ether and the youtube stuff was often cringeworthy. Yeah he didn't get the job as chairman, but was that his real objective? I'm not so sure it was actually. He rattled cages that needed rattling and it worked.

Oh I'm not really concerned about the detail, Dave.

That's for the Welsh really. But I'm just talking about my sense of the man. Seldom have I seen a bigger ego (apart from mine Wink

) in operation than the constant stunt-a-day "It's Me again!" circus that Moffett engaged in.

I enjoyed it on a superficial level as an outsider looking in. He might indeed be a bright business spark but nope, I'd steam roll over that pompous self aggrandising personality of his.

by Cardiff Dave Tue 24 Feb 2015, 6:08 pm

2ndtimeround wrote:It was Moffett that formed the regions and started the chaos,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_of_regional_rugby_union_teams_in_Wales

by 2ndtimeround Tue 24 Feb 2015, 6:29 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
2ndtimeround wrote:It was Moffett that formed the regions and started the chaos,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_of_regional_rugby_union_teams_in_Wales

Yes I know all that, I'm missing your point?
Moffett was the man in charge of it all regardless of who argued what case, the whole case was handled purely from a position of weak leadership and when he then seized the opportunity to close the Celtic Warriors purely to enable him to achieve his personal target of 4 teams he created a rift that will possibly last for generations. Had the WRU taken over the Warriors franchise themselves instead of closing it they would of already been 1 step closer to the more recent objective of mimicking the IRFU model and would of not of alienated an important rugby heartland in the process.
I don't believe for a minute that Wales is not a big enough nation to support 6 teams with the right marketing and atmosphere been created.
Ireland has 4 and Rugby Union has far more competition out there from other sports than Wales does.

by Sin é Tue 24 Feb 2015, 6:31 pm

2ndtimeround wrote:What Lewis has done is starve them of funding and damage interest in the game with his insistence of arguing everything in public, he tried his best to stop the Regions building links with the smaller clubs for fear of the regions gaining voting power on the exec committee and thereby loosening his grip on the game overall.
We have had the 4 regions in place for almost 12 years now, sufficient time for them to have built strong link and support networks with the smaller clubs around each region, something that would of helped the regions develop an Identity as well as generating interest in the game at grass roots level, this has been prevented, as have other revenue generating opportunities like allowing the regions to play mid week games against International touring sides.
He can't go soon enough IMHO.

Starve who of funding? The Regions or the Amateur clubs?

Why do you have a problem with arguing everything in public. Is there something to hide?

by Cardiff Dave Tue 24 Feb 2015, 6:41 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:

Did he [Moffett] fail though last time around with regards to today's news?
Certainly was entertaining when he unexpectly appeared out of the ether and the youtube stuff was often cringeworthy. Yeah he didn't get the job as chairman, but was that his real objective? I'm not so sure it was actually. He rattled cages that needed rattling and it worked.

Oh I'm not really concerned about the detail, Dave.

That's for the Welsh really. But I'm just talking about my sense of the man. Seldom have I seen a bigger ego (apart from mine ) in operation than the constant stunt-a-day "It's Me again!" circus that Moffett engaged in.

I enjoyed it on a superficial level as an outsider looking in. He might indeed be a bright business spark but nope, I'd steam roll over that pompous self aggrandising personality of his.

Neither are many Welsh supporters either which is a shame.
I disagree with your view on Moffett. Never struck me that way and the fundamental difference between Dodger and Moffett is that the latter voluntarily put himself in the firing line. Dodger on the other hand has been almost untouchable and any communication was seemingly orchestrated. What Welsh rugby is crying out for is openness and transparency. Then we Welsh can at last stop complaining and bickering. There again, where's the fun in that?

by Nachos Jones Tue 24 Feb 2015, 6:49 pm

I am currently unable to access any information on the Williams stamping incident. Has he been cited for it? I imagine he could see a couple of weeks ban for it.

by 2ndtimeround Tue 24 Feb 2015, 6:54 pm

Starve who of funding? The Regions or the Amateur clubs?

Why do you have a problem with arguing everything in public. Is there something to hide?[/quote]

the amatuer clubs.

the fact that joe public dont actually give a toss about the politics of the game, only what happens on the field.

by Cardiff Dave Tue 24 Feb 2015, 6:56 pm

2ndtimeround wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
2ndtimeround wrote:It was Moffett that formed the regions and started the chaos,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_of_regional_rugby_union_teams_in_Wales

Yes I know all that, I'm missing your point?

Very probably. Anyway, best dicuss this elsewhere on a more appropriate thread.

by Sin é Tue 24 Feb 2015, 6:59 pm

2ndtimeround wrote:

Starve who of funding? The Regions or the Amateur clubs?

Why do you have a problem with arguing everything in public. Is there something to hide?

the amatuer clubs.

the fact that joe public dont actually give a toss about the politics of the game, only what happens on the field.[/quote]

Were they using the funds to pay players?

by ScarletSpiderman Tue 24 Feb 2015, 7:00 pm

Sin é wrote:
2ndtimeround wrote:What Lewis has done is starve them of funding and damage interest in the game with his insistence of arguing everything in public, he tried his best to stop the Regions building links with the smaller clubs for fear of the regions gaining voting power on the exec committee and thereby loosening his grip on the game overall.
We have had the 4 regions in place for almost 12 years now, sufficient time for them to have built strong link and support networks with the smaller clubs around each region, something that would of helped the regions develop an Identity as well as generating interest in the game at grass roots level, this has been prevented, as have other revenue generating opportunities like allowing the regions to play mid week games against International touring sides.
He can't go soon enough IMHO.

Starve who of funding? The Regions or the Amateur clubs?

Why do you have a problem with arguing everything in public. Is there something to hide?

Starve everyone of funding by repaying the stadium debt beyond the necessary.

The issue with arguing in the media, is that if one side of the debate holds leverage over some of the media (I.e. Tv deals, agreements to exclusives etc) and the other side of the argument don't, the whole poop storm can be spun quite easily. And that leads to people who believe they are well read and versed on the situation, when in truth they know very little of the real non spun facts.

by Sin é Tue 24 Feb 2015, 7:05 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Sin é wrote:
2ndtimeround wrote:What Lewis has done is starve them of funding and damage interest in the game with his insistence of arguing everything in public, he tried his best to stop the Regions building links with the smaller clubs for fear of the regions gaining voting power on the exec committee and thereby loosening his grip on the game overall.
We have had the 4 regions in place for almost 12 years now, sufficient time for them to have built strong link and support networks with the smaller clubs around each region, something that would of helped the regions develop an Identity as well as generating interest in the game at grass roots level, this has been prevented, as have other revenue generating opportunities like allowing the regions to play mid week games against International touring sides.
He can't go soon enough IMHO.

Starve who of funding? The Regions or the Amateur clubs?

Why do you have a problem with arguing everything in public. Is there something to hide?

Starve everyone of funding by repaying the stadium debt beyond the necessary.

The issue with arguing in the media, is that if one side of the debate holds leverage over some of the media (I.e. Tv deals, agreements to exclusives etc) and the other side of the argument don't, the whole poop storm can be spun quite easily. And that leads to people who believe they are well read and versed on the situation, when in truth they know very little of the real non spun facts.

What do the amateur clubs want the money for though? Is it to pay amateur players?

I'm surprised that some of the media wouldn't be fair. After all, its Joe Public the media are catering to, not Lewis.

Just for the record, the IRFU have paid off their part of the Aviva (about 80m) in about 2 years. They have loaned the stadium company 35m (because their partners in the stadium (FAI) are very badly managed).

by Sin é Tue 24 Feb 2015, 7:14 pm

Nachos Jones wrote:I am currently unable to access any information on the Williams stamping incident. Has he been cited for it? I imagine he could see a couple of weeks ban for it.

Just checked the PRO12 site and there is no mention of any citing.

For the record - the Citing Commissioner was Aurwel Morgan (WRU).

by Nachos Jones Tue 24 Feb 2015, 7:17 pm

Sin é wrote:
Nachos Jones wrote:I am currently unable to access any information on the Williams stamping incident. Has he been cited for it? I imagine he could see a couple of weeks ban for it.

Just checked the PRO12 site and there is no mention of any citing.

For the record - the Citing Commissioner was Aurwel Morgan (WRU).

Ok cheers Sin é. I think he will be lucky to escape a citing myself. It wasn't a violent act but the intention was there, soft as it was, it was stupid.

by Cardiff Dave Tue 24 Feb 2015, 7:33 pm

Sin é wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Sin é wrote:
2ndtimeround wrote:What Lewis has done is starve them of funding and damage interest in the game with his insistence of arguing everything in public, he tried his best to stop the Regions building links with the smaller clubs for fear of the regions gaining voting power on the exec committee and thereby loosening his grip on the game overall.
We have had the 4 regions in place for almost 12 years now, sufficient time for them to have built strong link and support networks with the smaller clubs around each region, something that would of helped the regions develop an Identity as well as generating interest in the game at grass roots level, this has been prevented, as have other revenue generating opportunities like allowing the regions to play mid week games against International touring sides.
He can't go soon enough IMHO.

Starve who of funding? The Regions or the Amateur clubs?

Why do you have a problem with arguing everything in public. Is there something to hide?

Starve everyone of funding by repaying the stadium debt beyond the necessary.

The issue with arguing in the media, is that if one side of the debate holds leverage over some of the media (I.e. Tv deals, agreements to exclusives etc) and the other side of the argument don't, the whole poop storm can be spun quite easily. And that leads to people who believe they are well read and versed on the situation, when in truth they know very little of the real non spun facts.

What do the amateur clubs want the money for though? Is it to pay amateur players?

I'm surprised that some of the media wouldn't be fair. After all, its Joe Public the media are catering to, not Lewis.

Just for the record, the IRFU have paid off their part of the Aviva (about 80m) in about 2 years. They have loaned the stadium company 35m (because their partners in the stadium (FAI) are very badly managed).

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/warren-gatland-roger-lewis-join-3016088
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-31600635

by 2ndtimeround Tue 24 Feb 2015, 7:36 pm

Sin é wrote:
2ndtimeround wrote:

Starve who of funding? The Regions or the Amateur clubs?

Why do you have a problem with arguing everything in public. Is there something to hide?

the amatuer clubs.

the fact that joe public dont actually give a toss about the politics of the game, only what happens on the field.

Were they using the funds to pay players?

I dont actualy know that one tbh but I know clubs are struggling with things like pitch fees, referee costs, transport costs due to WRU restructuring of leagues, etc. The small clubs also seem to feel they are been starved to support the Regions! Go figure eh, thats the mess that the WRU have presided over for far to long, the buck has to stop at the top.
[/quote]

by Sin é Tue 24 Feb 2015, 8:58 pm

So, there are probably too many clubs for them all to be sustainable. It would be absolutely mad if the WRU were propping up clubs for running costs, whatever about giving infrastructure grants towards making the clubs sustainable (for example, clubhouse development so that the club can make money on the bar etc, provide a sports facility for the local community).

by Cardiff Dave Tue 24 Feb 2015, 9:15 pm

Sin é wrote:So, there are probably too many clubs for them all to be sustainable. It would be absolutely mad if the WRU were propping up clubs for running costs, whatever about giving infrastructure grants towards making the clubs sustainable (for example, clubhouse development so that the club can make money on the bar etc, provide a sports facility for the local community).

And too many WRU CEOs on £340k I guess.
U stands for Union btw. I'm thinking coal now.

by Sin é Tue 24 Feb 2015, 9:31 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Sin é wrote:So, there are probably too many clubs for them all to be sustainable. It would be absolutely mad if the WRU were propping up clubs for running costs, whatever about giving infrastructure grants towards making the clubs sustainable (for example, clubhouse development so that the club can make money on the bar etc, provide a sports facility for the local community).

And too many WRU CEOs on £340k I guess.
U stands for Union btw. I'm thinking coal now.

That is the going rate for a CEO of a multi-million business. Thats the kind of remuneration people with ability expect.

I don't get what you are talking about in your 2nd sentence.

by ScarletSpiderman Tue 24 Feb 2015, 10:21 pm

Sin é wrote:
Nachos Jones wrote:I am currently unable to access any information on the Williams stamping incident. Has he been cited for it? I imagine he could see a couple of weeks ban for it.

Just checked the PRO12 site and there is no mention of any citing.

For the record - the Citing Commissioner was Aurwel Morgan (WRU).

I can't even find a video of the stamp online, well expect on the highlights from scrum v where it can be seen on the tmo screens when they mention hawkeye (they didn't even shown either card on the highlights )

by Chunky Norwich Wed 25 Feb 2015, 10:06 am

SecretFly wrote:

What is your specific Region? The one you'd support most.

Scarlets

And if it became WRU owned would your allegiance to it be any less?

Yes

by Chunky Norwich Wed 25 Feb 2015, 10:12 am

Sin é wrote:

Finally, of course Munster would have a big turnover. Its owns a brand new 26K stadium.

Munster own that stadium?

How much of the 9m Euros they owe the IRFU have they paid back?

by SecretFly Wed 25 Feb 2015, 10:42 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote:

Finally, of course Munster would have a big turnover. Its owns a brand new 26K stadium.

Munster own that stadium?

How much of the 9m Euros they owe the IRFU have they paid back?

Munster are either owned by the organisation that organised funding for the Stadium... or they're not. It's a continuing circle. The IRFU owe themselves the money and will find arrangements to pay themselves back.

Now how much every year do Scarlets get from a company (WRU) that 'doesn't' own them? And do they pay any of it back?

by SecretFly Wed 25 Feb 2015, 10:43 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

What is your specific Region? The one you'd support most.

Scarlets

And if it became WRU owned would your allegiance to it be any less?

Yes

There you go. Welcome to the 'entrenched' club. I had a seat kept warm for you.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 25 Feb 2015, 10:50 am

SecretFly wrote:

Munster are either owned by the organisation that organised funding for the Stadium... or they're not. It's a continuing circle. The IRFU owe themselves the money and will find arrangements to pay themselves back.

The arrangement is 100,000 Euros a year. Nice deal.

Now how much every year do Scarlets get from a company (WRU) that 'doesn't' own them? And do they pay any of it back?

"Get" or "earn" ?

by Chunky Norwich Wed 25 Feb 2015, 10:52 am

SecretFly wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

What is your specific Region? The one you'd support most.

Scarlets

And if it became WRU owned would your allegiance to it be any less?

Yes

There you go. Welcome to the 'entrenched' club. I had a seat kept warm for you.

That's like saying because you don't want the goverment to take over ownership of your house and your car, you're position is "entrenched". Of course it's bloody entrenched. You earned your house and your car.

by SecretFly Wed 25 Feb 2015, 11:04 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

Munster are either owned by the organisation that organised funding for the Stadium... or they're not. It's a continuing circle. The IRFU owe themselves the money and will find arrangements to pay themselves back.

The arrangement is 100,000 Euros a year. Nice deal.

Now how much every year do Scarlets get from a company (WRU) that 'doesn't' own them? And do they pay any of it back?

"Get" or "earn" ?

Well what are they earning? Going by the horror stories over the last number of years about poor attendances and old club time rememberers not attending Regional matches on principle because of 'entrenched' positions - I'd say most of it is 'Get'?

Besides - I think Munster and Leinster have been 'earning' rather than 'getting' quite a packet the hard way over the last decade. Again it's a circle, Chunky. Even if someone pays for your players...those players have to pay for themselves by working their buts off to win things.

by Chunky Norwich Wed 25 Feb 2015, 11:08 am

SecretFly wrote:
Well what are they earning? Going by the horror stories over the last number of years about poor attendances and old club time rememberers not attending Regional matches on principle because of 'entrenched' positions - I'd say most of it is 'Get'?

Then you'd be wrong wouldn't you. Wales have more access to their international players than any other test side in the world. That comes at a price.

Even if someone pays for your players...those players have to pay for themselves by working their buts off to win things.

No idea what you mean here. Not every club can win everything all the time.

by SecretFly Wed 25 Feb 2015, 11:11 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

What is your specific Region? The one you'd support most.

Scarlets

And if it became WRU owned would your allegiance to it be any less?

Yes

There you go. Welcome to the 'entrenched' club. I had a seat kept warm for you.

That's like saying because you don't want the goverment to take over ownership of your house and your car, you're position is "entrenched". Of course it's bloody entrenched. You earned your house and your car.

You earned nothing. Unless you're very special and have an as yet undeclared vested interest in the financials of Scarlets - then nope, you haven't earned a penny. You're a fan. You pay your money and watch the movie.

BTW................ how much of the car do you own? Or the house? Government didn't take their cut? You don't pay your tax on your car and you pretty quickly can't drive it. Government don't tell you where to park it and where not to drive it? Government don't take a slice of anything you add to it or put into it to make it move?

Don't give me that crap about Private V Public. We're all in a Publically owned environment if we live and breathe anywhere on this planet - and that includes the Antarctic - they pay their taxes there too Wink

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