Tonights Action SPOILERS

First topic message reminder :

Two Brits involved in world title fights tonight then;

Martin Murray vs GGG on C5, Hughie Fury on the undercard as well. Paul Smith vs Abraham on Sky with David Price and Josh Warrington on the undercard as well.

Who's everyone watching?

it passes the time

Although he did make me laugh the other day when he was poking fun at himself over mixing you and AdamD up.

Show's he's still thinking about everyone over her

Let us hope Lemiuex lands something big at some point Haz, one thing is for certain he won't be standing up to too much punishment.

AdamT wrote:Haz Floyd has fought plenty of genuine contenders over the years. He has had the luxury of picking his fights now through proving himself.

Perhaps GGG can do the same when he beats loads of champs over the next decade and remain unbeaten.

Never fought a killer, though. If he wouldn't fight a red-hot Pacquiao, he wouldn't have fought a red-hot Golovkin either.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Let us hope Lemiuex lands something big at some point Haz, one thing is for certain he won't be standing up to too much punishment.

Golovkin is hittable - and no-one is infallible. Could be a great short battle.

Dipper Brown wrote:Haz - I don't see why Cotto should fight Murray. Murray's just fought another titlist and lost. He previously fought Martinez and lost and fought out a draw with Sturm. You and many others can argue he was hard done by and I'd agree he was no disgrace in any of those but the facts are he's had 3 title shots and didn't win one. So he's not getting a shot at the lineal champion and I don't think Cotto owes it to him.

Cotto GGG a different story.

GGG Floyd is a non starter. Floyd holds the belt at 154 but is operating at 147 and is fighting the fight everyone wants down there. GGG is a career middleweight who's always fought at 160 in the pros. Floyd is hardly avoiding him.

I'm no Floyd fan but you'd swear some would only be happy if he fought everyone, in every division at the same time!

Cotto won't fight Murray - it was hypothetical. Murray is more than likely done anyway. He took an epic hiding.

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Let us hope Lemiuex lands something big at some point Haz, one thing is for certain he won't be standing up to too much punishment.

Golovkin is hittable - and no-one is infallible. Could be a great short battle.

Worded that badly, meant Lemiuex won't stand up to too much punishment, we're unsure about Golovkin thus far.

If the sparring stories are true Gennady would put Liston on the back foot!

hazharrison wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:In fairness Murray is a top 3 p4per.......

He must be because Haz thinks the 4th best one is crap now Mayweather is fighting him !!

I've never said Pacquiao was "crap".

I fancy Murray (well the Murray before last night) would have been too big and just skilled enough to see off Cotto and Canelo.

He's a big middle, but does he use that size to his advantage? Not really in the fights I've seen. We really need to see Cotto at middle again, to see how good he was compared to how bad martinez was, as it looked a  bit of both to me. Its possible murray's too big for him to get close to, but p4p cotto is in a different league as a fighter. On balance, I'd pick cotto and alvarez to beat him pretty comfortably to be honest.

You're unlikely to see Cotto fight a middleweight again. Murray too big, too strong and skilled enough to overcome Cotto.

I'm not talking P4P (yawn) - I mean at middleweight.

I know you meant at middleweight. I said on balance I think cotto would beat him despite the size difference on account of the fact murray isn't as good a fighter and doesn't use his size and alleged strength to his advantage.

Cotto no credit for splattering half dead martinez. Murray loads of credit for losing to half dead martinez. I thought sturm beat him comfortably too. Loads of respect for his heart and resilience but bit of a solid plodder in my book.

Cotto can fad in fights if he is not getting on top. He will battle intensely for round after round but then something switches of. Murray would go 12 rounds with Cotto but he doesn't have enough to deter or break Cotto. Class would tell if they fought in my opinion.

I judge boxing ability as 'the extent one can hit without being hit'. I deem fighting ability 'as the attributes required to win in the ring, which are separate from boxing abilty"

Using those criteria I think Golovkins boxing ability is over sold in some quarters.

Golovkin has power and chin, and it is these two things, combined, which facilitate his ability to cut the ring off, i.e. a boxer feels his power and goes on his bike - Golovkin then proceeds to walk his man down, taking more blows than I feel is necessary.

Once he has his man where he wants him, he keeps him pinned with subtle movements while maintaining perfect balance - he always has the perfect foundation from which to get leverage on his shots, at moments notice, when an opening presents itself. However, again his chin and power contribute to his ability to be patient and pin....

GGG's power is such, that when he's flurrying, his opponent MUST cover up and not throw for risk of getting knocked out. However, even when GGG is not throwing punches, his opponents, when their back is on the ropes, are reluctant to throw for fear of being countered - because the counters will be bomb's due to his excellent balance.

In total, whether GGG is throwing or not, his opponents are somewhat reluctant to throw - this allows Golvokin to be patient and look for openings, which increases his accuracy. It also gives him the time to adjust his feet to maintain his balance and throw the bombs (be they counters or not). At the same time the confidence he has in his chin contributes to his composure, which further increases his ability to concentrate on finding the openings.

What he does he does well but i don't regard it as boxing ability within the confines of the definition provided.

His attributes (power, chin, balance, composure) allow him to win in a boxing ring, and his vast experience has allowed him to get his tactics right. Though his tactics, basically walk a man, cut the ring off, look for openings, take a couple, and don't waste shots, doesn't require great boxing IQ.

Boxing IQ, for me at least, is the ability to adapt tactics to suit the opponent - not to do the same thing over and over because it works, which is what we've seen from GGG, though this is no fault of his.

GGG has great fighting ability....and it's mixed with good technique, too (except for that weird overhand chopping hook he throw's? how has he not damaged his rotator cuff?)

I'd like to see him stay at MW...there are fights to be made:Lee/Quillin, Cotto, and I believe Korobov can come again.

I think some people only want to see him move up because they want to see him beat.

I've noticed in the past that while Golovkin gets hit he rarely gets hit clean with a flush shot. His reflexes are quite good and he uses small head movements when feinting and when rolling with a punch.   He didn't have a lot of respect for murray's power last night.

Interesting perspective fingers. On another thread, groves, after sparring with him, said you had to have the courage to throw with him to beat him.

As you say, I think opponents are too scared to let their hands go.

Can't speak for others, I don't want him to go up in weight to see him lose... I just want to see close competitive fights or at least, one where the result is in doubt.

milkyboy wrote:Interesting perspective fingers. On another thread, groves, after sparring with him, said you had to have the courage to throw with him to beat him.

As you say, I think opponents are too scared to let their hands go.

Can't speak for others, I don't want him to go up in weight to see him lose... I just want to see close competitive fights or at least, one where the result is in doubt.

I think that's what a lot of people want given its a particularly poor MW division with a career LWW/WW ruling the roost. Cotto only went to LMW as WW was so stacked.

If I were Harrison, personally I'd have been seriously considering pulling Murray out anywhere from the end of round eight onwards. The fight had long since become unwinnable by then - fair enough if your guy is receiving a lesson in the sweet science, but when he's getting a methodical beat-down in what is all one-way traffic, I think a chief second needs to show a bit more concern than that. It was all a bit pointless from that stage onwards.

Interestingly, I saw Chavez-Rosario mentioned earlier as a way of suggesting that Harrison was right to let things go on - oddly enough, I don't particularly think that was any more of a one-sided and cringe-worthy beat down than last night. Rosario at least can claim to have maybe won a round in that fight, and wasn't getting dumped on his backside multiple times, either. One and the same for me, with both contests being domination for seven rounds or so and becoming pointless exercises afterwards. There's a chance of course that last night's shellacking won't have any long-lasting effect on Murray, but I'd have preferred to see Harrison remove that possibility completely by calling the fight. But that's just me.

I'd expect Golovkin to start as favourite with the bookies if the Froch fight ever got made, which it almost certainly won't. But there are a lot of contrasting views flying around, all of which have logic and truth in them, which shows what an intriguing fight it'd be.

I certainly don't buy in to the idea that Froch would or could approach the fight with no concern for Golovkin's power. Froch is a few things, but he's not stupid. He knew well enough to take as few risks as possible against Abraham, for instance, and having cited Abraham as the hardest puncher he's faced it's no surprise that Froch didn't want to stand and have a shoot out in that one. I suspect he'd be trying to implement a similar gameplan against Golovkin - Froch doesn't like chasing as he's not the quickest, but he wouldn't have to go looking for Golovkin in any case, and he's not a particularly great inside fighter either. I think he'd want to keep the fight at mid range where he could use his reach and jab as well as his underrated (and sometimes underused) combination punching to contain Golovkin's forward march.

Golovkin's head movement coming in can be a bit sloppy and in recent fights he's seemed less interested in defence than he used to be. Maybe it's because he simply didn't think he'd need it against the guys he's been fighting (and given how dominant he's been, maybe there's some truth in that) or maybe his defence just isn't all that hot, but if he doesn't use his jab and some movement going after Froch he'll encounter plenty of problems. Froch's defence has never been owt to get excitied over, of course, but occasionally he has shown that he can put together a disciplined game plan. If Froch can get his jab established then Golovkin might have a hard time initiating the exchanges and getting in to range to let his shots go as much as he'd like even if he's the one moving forward, ala Abraham.

With regards to Golovkin's ability to deal with the additional weight and strength of a Super-Middle like Froch....It's guesswork, really. He doesn't look like the kind of guy who is custom-built to travel up in weight, but neither did Pacquiao. It probably surprised a lot of people to see the 'feather fisted' and 'runner' Ward pushing Froch back and dominating the inside exchanges, for instance, so it's not a given that Froch's physicality would bully GGG.

I think it would be wise for both men, if any fight was seriously proposed between them, to have a warm up first - Golovkin to see how he gets on against a top ten 168 pounder and to get acclimatised to the division, and Froch to dust off the cobwebs; he's 38 later this year and if he ever does step back in the ring, it'll be after more than a year of inactivity since the Wembley show. Not the best circumstances to be taking a fight over probably the best fighter he'd have fought apart from Ward. But as I and most others have said already, suspect that one will always remain a fantasy, and with Ward's career still pretty dormant there's no guarantee that Golovkin is going to get a mouth-watering, huge money fight any time soon even if he does try his hand at Super-Middle.

Interesting post above by the way, 3fingers. Made for good reading mate.

milkyboy wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:In fairness Murray is a top 3 p4per.......

He must be because Haz thinks the 4th best one is crap now Mayweather is fighting him !!

I've never said Pacquiao was "crap".

I fancy Murray (well the Murray before last night) would have been too big and just skilled enough to see off Cotto and Canelo.

He's a big middle, but does he use that size to his advantage? Not really in the fights I've seen. We really need to see Cotto at middle again, to see how good he was compared to how bad martinez was, as it looked a  bit of both to me. Its possible murray's too big for him to get close to, but p4p cotto is in a different league as a fighter. On balance, I'd pick cotto and alvarez to beat him pretty comfortably to be honest.

You're unlikely to see Cotto fight a middleweight again. Murray too big, too strong and skilled enough to overcome Cotto.

I'm not talking P4P (yawn) - I mean at middleweight.

I know you meant at middleweight. I said on balance I think cotto would beat him despite the size difference on account of the fact murray isn't as good a fighter and doesn't use his size and alleged strength to his advantage.

Cotto no credit for splattering half dead martinez. Murray loads of credit for losing to half dead martinez. I thought sturm beat him comfortably too. Loads of respect for his heart and resilience but bit of a solid plodder in my book.

Cotto's record post welterweight is sketchy to put it mildly. Austin Trout handled him fairly comfortably not too long ago.

Murray looked huge next to Golovkin - he'd be even bigger against Cotto. Cotto simply isn't big enough to impose himself on Murray.

Cotto much the better boxer but too small to make it count here.

I do find it amusing that everyone is saying that GGG must go up a division and fight Froch/Ward/Abraham. Why? He's a small-ish middleweight and doesn't look like he'd have the frame anyway. On the flip side there are those saying he can make 154, which makes an absolute mockery of the 168 suggestions.

Nobody gave Hagler a hard time for not going up a weight division - he's rated as one of the best ever middleweights - yet they also use it as a stick to beat Mayweather/Cotto/Pacquiao with. Make your mind up people! What we have here is a rough diamond - he's an exciting middleweight with excellent offensive capabilities who has yet to be put under serious pressure. Let him continue his destructive trail through the middleweight division and let's enjoy watching him do it.

Posters on here are always crying out for exciting fights and decent fighters. Now we've got one, nobody wants to let him do what he's good at - beating up middleweights!

I guess it depends if you think beating up mediocre middleweights is exciting mr b.

People are just talking as fans about fights we'd like to see. Golovkin's management team have said historically he could make 154, and they've also called out froch at supermiddle. In the modern world of 'advanced nutrition' if they're happy fighting from 154-168 them why shouldn't anyone else be if the more exciting/competitive  fights are at 168.

Dwight qawi was a 5'5 light heavy and a very competitive cruiser, ggg is shorter than average for a super middle, but similar to benn Eubank etc. and not really a noticeably smaller frame. I'd probably fear more for him drained at 154 than at 168 personally, but I guess its down to his team to know his physical limitations.

Whichever if he can find some exciting fights at 160, great. If not I'd prefer him to look elsewhere.

Mr Bounce wrote:I do find it amusing that everyone is saying that GGG must go up a division and fight Froch/Ward/Abraham. Why? He's a small-ish middleweight and doesn't look like he'd have the frame anyway. On the flip side there are those saying he can make 154, which makes an absolute mockery of the 168 suggestions.

Nobody gave Hagler a hard time for not going up a weight division - he's rated as one of the best ever middleweights - yet they also use it as a stick to beat Mayweather/Cotto/Pacquiao with. Make your mind up people! What we have here is a rough diamond - he's an exciting middleweight with excellent offensive capabilities who has yet to be put under serious pressure. Let him continue his destructive trail through the middleweight division and let's enjoy watching him do it.

Posters on here are always crying out for exciting fights and decent fighters. Now we've got one, nobody wants to let him do what he's good at - beating up middleweights!

It's a symptom of the mess boxing is in these days. Fighters aren't permitted to fight in one division - the lack of coherence (in terms of the champion/challenger structure) leaves TV execs scratching their heads. They look to match "names" instead, regardless of weight.

This has left fans (especially new fans who've grown up in this mess) brainwashed into thinking every fighter has to be a multi-weight "champion" in order to be a good fighter. What we're actually left with is a boat load of mismatches and paper titlists.

I agree: Golovkin looks like a middleweight and no more. At 32, he's simply not going to grow any bigger (unless he takes the "conditioner/ripped fuel" route).

Saying that, I'm keen to see him in a competitive fight. Maybe Quillin will change his tune once he gets past Lee. Maybe Alvarez or Cotto will take him on (although I'm not sure how competitive those fights are).

But you've said it yourself, Bounce - fans want exciting fights.

I agree with you that Golovkin doesn't necessarily have to move up to Super-Middle as he clearly wants to establish a GGG era at Middleweight and the onus should be on the 'real' (!) champion Cotto (or Alvarez if he were to usurp Cotto as the lineal champion at 160) to fight him rather than Golovkin just shrugging his shoulders and accepting this outright avoidance of him. But regardless of how much the fans want it or how hard Golovkin campaigns for it, if Cotto simply doesn't fancy it then what can Golovkin do?

He's been beating up Middleweights for a long time now and fans have been pretty happy with it, but while his style is exciting, the actual fights since the Ouma one (which people forget was a life and death struggle for Golovkin) haven't been that exciting in themselves, as he's seldom had to get out of first gear and there's been a sense of inevitibility about the results as soon as the fights have been signed. I don't know about you, but I haven't really been excited before Golovkin's fights with Macklin, Adama, Geale, Rubio etc - more just intrigued as to how quickly he'll stop them, which punch it'll be etc. Obviously that's a testament to Golovkin's dominance and quality at Middleweight, so not a knock against him, but it's understandable that people want to see him in more competitive match ups regardless of it being his fault or not.

Lemeiux could be interesting with a bit of luck, and there's the winner of Quillin-Lee which would be a worthwhile addition to his ledger, but outside of that he's pretty much exhausted every option at Middleweight which anyone would care about. I've got no problem at all with people staying in one division and clearing it out if there are exciting fights available there and / or the division next up from them doesn't really offer any incentive to go there or offer an improvement in opposition, but that doesn't particularly apply in Golovkin's case right now.

Ward or Froch would be mouth-watering fights. Even someone like Degale, if he can win the IBF belt, would bring a more interesting dimension and challenge than the Murrays and Stevens' of the world with his added weight, speed and unorthodoxy. Plenty of fighters (from all eras) have shown that other guys apparently being 'too big' for you doesn't matter if you're 'too good' for them. We know that Golovkin is a cracking fighter, but I want to see if he's a really great one. Staying at Middleweight is unlikely to give us the answer to that, but moving up 8 lb might just.

88Chris05 wrote:But you've said it yourself, Bounce - fans want exciting fights.

I agree with you that Golovkin doesn't necessarily have to move up to Super-Middle as he clearly wants to establish a GGG era at Middleweight and the onus should be on the 'real' (!) champion Cotto (or Alvarez if he were to usurp Cotto as the lineal champion at 160) to fight him rather than Golovkin just shrugging his shoulders and accepting this outright avoidance of him. But regardless of how much the fans want it or how hard Golovkin campaigns for it, if Cotto simply doesn't fancy it then what can Golovkin do?

He's been beating up Middleweights for a long time now and fans have been pretty happy with it, but while his style is exciting, the actual fights since the Ouma one (which people forget was a life and death struggle for Golovkin) haven't been that exciting in themselves, as he's seldom had to get out of first gear and there's been a sense of inevitibility about the results as soon as the fights have been signed. I don't know about you, but I haven't really been excited before Golovkin's fights with Macklin, Adama, Geale, Rubio etc - more just intrigued as to how quickly he'll stop them, which punch it'll be etc. Obviously that's a testament to Golovkin's dominance and quality at Middleweight, so not a knock against him, but it's understandable that people want to see him in more competitive match ups regardless of it being his fault or not.

Lemeiux could be interesting with a bit of luck, and there's the winner of Quillin-Lee which would be a worthwhile addition to his ledger, but outside of that he's pretty much exhausted every option at Middleweight which anyone would care about. I've got no problem at all with people staying in one division and clearing it out if there are exciting fights available there and / or the division next up from them doesn't really offer any incentive to go there or offer an improvement in opposition, but that doesn't particularly apply in Golovkin's case right now.

Ward or Froch would be mouth-watering fights. Even someone like Degale, if he can win the IBF belt, would bring a more interesting dimension and challenge than the Murrays and Stevens' of the world with his added weight, speed and unorthodoxy. Plenty of fighters (from all eras) have shown that other guys apparently being 'too big' for you doesn't matter if you're 'too good' for them. We know that Golovkin is a cracking fighter, but I want to see if he's a really great one. Staying at Middleweight is unlikely to give us the answer to that, but moving up 8 lb might just.

Good summation

I think you have to also factor in GGG's age.............He's not winning the title at 21 like Duran or 23 like Leonard he's going to be 33 soon !!....

The way he was blowing after 8 on Sat night...........We'll see how he blows at 35 against a shifty boxer at a good pace......The tank is one of the first things to go......Only have to look at the decline in Mayweather's work rate...

Everyone accepts he's the man at middle and beating Saunders, Quillen, Lee types won't cement anything but they will add another year to an aging tank...

Time is now to get those two or three legacy building wins and perhaps a Top 20/30 slot.............

Because against good, big 168 pounders at 36...............It ain't gonna happen !!

88Chris05 wrote:But you've said it yourself, Bounce - fans want exciting fights.

I agree with you that Golovkin doesn't necessarily have to move up to Super-Middle as he clearly wants to establish a GGG era at Middleweight and the onus should be on the 'real' (!) champion Cotto (or Alvarez if he were to usurp Cotto as the lineal champion at 160) to fight him rather than Golovkin just shrugging his shoulders and accepting this outright avoidance of him. But regardless of how much the fans want it or how hard Golovkin campaigns for it, if Cotto simply doesn't fancy it then what can Golovkin do?

He's been beating up Middleweights for a long time now and fans have been pretty happy with it, but while his style is exciting, the actual fights since the Ouma one (which people forget was a life and death struggle for Golovkin) haven't been that exciting in themselves, as he's seldom had to get out of first gear and there's been a sense of inevitibility about the results as soon as the fights have been signed. I don't know about you, but I haven't really been excited before Golovkin's fights with Macklin, Adama, Geale, Rubio etc - more just intrigued as to how quickly he'll stop them, which punch it'll be etc. Obviously that's a testament to Golovkin's dominance and quality at Middleweight, so not a knock against him, but it's understandable that people want to see him in more competitive match ups regardless of it being his fault or not.

Lemeiux could be interesting with a bit of luck, and there's the winner of Quillin-Lee which would be a worthwhile addition to his ledger, but outside of that he's pretty much exhausted every option at Middleweight which anyone would care about. I've got no problem at all with people staying in one division and clearing it out if there are exciting fights available there and / or the division next up from them doesn't really offer any incentive to go there or offer an improvement in opposition, but that doesn't particularly apply in Golovkin's case right now.

Ward or Froch would be mouth-watering fights. Even someone like Degale, if he can win the IBF belt, would bring a more interesting dimension and challenge than the Murrays and Stevens' of the world with his added weight, speed and unorthodoxy. Plenty of fighters (from all eras) have shown that other guys apparently being 'too big' for you doesn't matter if you're 'too good' for them. We know that Golovkin is a cracking fighter, but I want to see if he's a really great one. Staying at Middleweight is unlikely to give us the answer to that, but moving up 8 lb might just.

Froch has already turned the fight down - I'm not sure why he keeps creeping into the argument (same deal with Ward and Chavez, really - how many times have those two actually fought in the past couple of years?). As cool as a Froch fight would be, Froch isn't going to take it.

I find Golovkin exciting as he comes to fight and is constantly seeking a knockout. He's an exciting fighter. I'm always buzzing ahead of his fights (rare these days).

I think Golovkin can beat all of the super middleweights (I used to think Ward would grapple him to death but after seeing GGG's work in the clinches, I don't think that happens) but he probably wouldn't be as effective as he is at 160. I'd rather see him preside over an era of domination there (as Ward was beginning to at 168 before he went into the garage).

Did Golovkin tell Murray he's a good boy? Having watched the fight again, I think there is a case for saying Golovkin was a little careless. He's gotten incrementally more reckless in his search for knockouts. Tough to say whether this is because Golovkin is assimilating more and more "Mexican Style" in his game (ie he knows there's only one way he's gaining a crowd), or because he's seen what they have and decided his opposition don't deserve him sticking to the fundamentals.

hazharrison wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:But you've said it yourself, Bounce - fans want exciting fights.

I agree with you that Golovkin doesn't necessarily have to move up to Super-Middle as he clearly wants to establish a GGG era at Middleweight and the onus should be on the 'real' (!) champion Cotto (or Alvarez if he were to usurp Cotto as the lineal champion at 160) to fight him rather than Golovkin just shrugging his shoulders and accepting this outright avoidance of him. But regardless of how much the fans want it or how hard Golovkin campaigns for it, if Cotto simply doesn't fancy it then what can Golovkin do?

He's been beating up Middleweights for a long time now and fans have been pretty happy with it, but while his style is exciting, the actual fights since the Ouma one (which people forget was a life and death struggle for Golovkin) haven't been that exciting in themselves, as he's seldom had to get out of first gear and there's been a sense of inevitibility about the results as soon as the fights have been signed. I don't know about you, but I haven't really been excited before Golovkin's fights with Macklin, Adama, Geale, Rubio etc - more just intrigued as to how quickly he'll stop them, which punch it'll be etc. Obviously that's a testament to Golovkin's dominance and quality at Middleweight, so not a knock against him, but it's understandable that people want to see him in more competitive match ups regardless of it being his fault or not.

Lemeiux could be interesting with a bit of luck, and there's the winner of Quillin-Lee which would be a worthwhile addition to his ledger, but outside of that he's pretty much exhausted every option at Middleweight which anyone would care about. I've got no problem at all with people staying in one division and clearing it out if there are exciting fights available there and / or the division next up from them doesn't really offer any incentive to go there or offer an improvement in opposition, but that doesn't particularly apply in Golovkin's case right now.

Ward or Froch would be mouth-watering fights. Even someone like Degale, if he can win the IBF belt, would bring a more interesting dimension and challenge than the Murrays and Stevens' of the world with his added weight, speed and unorthodoxy. Plenty of fighters (from all eras) have shown that other guys apparently being 'too big' for you doesn't matter if you're 'too good' for them. We know that Golovkin is a cracking fighter, but I want to see if he's a really great one. Staying at Middleweight is unlikely to give us the answer to that, but moving up 8 lb might just.

Froch has already turned the fight down - I'm not sure why he keeps creeping into the argument (same deal with Ward and Chavez, really - how many times have those two actually fought in the past couple of years?). As cool as a Froch fight would be, Froch isn't going to take it.

I find Golovkin exciting as he comes to fight and is constantly seeking a knockout. He's an exciting fighter. I'm always buzzing ahead of his fights (rare these days).

I think Golovkin can beat all of the super middleweights (I used to think Ward would grapple him to death but after seeing GGG's work in the clinches, I don't think that happens) but he probably wouldn't be as effective as he is at 160. I'd rather see him preside over an era of domination there (as Ward was beginning to at 168 before he went into the garage).

He's a small middleweight and ward is a big super middle..........

It's a big leap of faith based on what ??????????????????????????????????????

HE HASN'T BEATEN ANYBODY !!

I just want to see the best fight the best, staying at middleweight when there are better boxers at 168lbs isn't going to improve his standing. Dominating a division is over rated when the meaningful fights aren't there.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:But you've said it yourself, Bounce - fans want exciting fights.

I agree with you that Golovkin doesn't necessarily have to move up to Super-Middle as he clearly wants to establish a GGG era at Middleweight and the onus should be on the 'real' (!) champion Cotto (or Alvarez if he were to usurp Cotto as the lineal champion at 160) to fight him rather than Golovkin just shrugging his shoulders and accepting this outright avoidance of him. But regardless of how much the fans want it or how hard Golovkin campaigns for it, if Cotto simply doesn't fancy it then what can Golovkin do?

He's been beating up Middleweights for a long time now and fans have been pretty happy with it, but while his style is exciting, the actual fights since the Ouma one (which people forget was a life and death struggle for Golovkin) haven't been that exciting in themselves, as he's seldom had to get out of first gear and there's been a sense of inevitibility about the results as soon as the fights have been signed. I don't know about you, but I haven't really been excited before Golovkin's fights with Macklin, Adama, Geale, Rubio etc - more just intrigued as to how quickly he'll stop them, which punch it'll be etc. Obviously that's a testament to Golovkin's dominance and quality at Middleweight, so not a knock against him, but it's understandable that people want to see him in more competitive match ups regardless of it being his fault or not.

Lemeiux could be interesting with a bit of luck, and there's the winner of Quillin-Lee which would be a worthwhile addition to his ledger, but outside of that he's pretty much exhausted every option at Middleweight which anyone would care about. I've got no problem at all with people staying in one division and clearing it out if there are exciting fights available there and / or the division next up from them doesn't really offer any incentive to go there or offer an improvement in opposition, but that doesn't particularly apply in Golovkin's case right now.

Ward or Froch would be mouth-watering fights. Even someone like Degale, if he can win the IBF belt, would bring a more interesting dimension and challenge than the Murrays and Stevens' of the world with his added weight, speed and unorthodoxy. Plenty of fighters (from all eras) have shown that other guys apparently being 'too big' for you doesn't matter if you're 'too good' for them. We know that Golovkin is a cracking fighter, but I want to see if he's a really great one. Staying at Middleweight is unlikely to give us the answer to that, but moving up 8 lb might just.

Froch has already turned the fight down - I'm not sure why he keeps creeping into the argument (same deal with Ward and Chavez, really - how many times have those two actually fought in the past couple of years?). As cool as a Froch fight would be, Froch isn't going to take it.

I find Golovkin exciting as he comes to fight and is constantly seeking a knockout. He's an exciting fighter. I'm always buzzing ahead of his fights (rare these days).

I think Golovkin can beat all of the super middleweights (I used to think Ward would grapple him to death but after seeing GGG's work in the clinches, I don't think that happens) but he probably wouldn't be as effective as he is at 160. I'd rather see him preside over an era of domination there (as Ward was beginning to at 168 before he went into the garage).

He's a small middleweight and ward is a big super middle..........

It's a big leap of faith based on what ??????????????????????????????????????

HE HASN'T BEATEN ANYBODY !!

Ward isn't a big super middle - that's his reasoning for not moving to 175. Ward will start favourite but I think the gap has narrowed. If Ward can't hold him inside (which I don't think he can), he'll have to fight one hell of a fight to outpoint him from range.

kingraf wrote:Did Golovkin tell Murray he's a good boy? Having watched the fight again, I think there is a case for saying Golovkin was a little careless. He's gotten incrementally more reckless in his search for knockouts. Tough to say whether this is because Golovkin is assimilating more and more "Mexican Style" in his game (ie he knows there's only one way he's gaining a crowd), or because he's seen what they have and decided his opposition don't deserve him sticking to the fundamentals.

He definitely did. He moved into range and allowed Murray to lead in order to try and counter with a massive shot. He's under pressure to keep the knockouts coming (pretty sure he could have cruised to a points win having taken far less punches).

Ward is bigger, taller, longer reach, has more nous......Is awkward and he's ten times better than anything this guy has beat.........

Murray, Macklin, Geale.......Just aren't that good I'm afraid...........

Anybody imagine what a Eubank, Benn, Graham would have done to these guys...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Ward is bigger, taller, longer reach, has more nous......Is awkward and he's ten times better than anything this guy has beat.........
Murray, Macklin, Geale.......Just aren't that good I'm afraid...........

Anybody imagine what a Eubank, Benn, Graham would have done to these guys...

Correct. That doesn't mean Golovkin can't beat him - there's not a lot in it physically.

Ward has fought once in two and a half years. Glovkin fights regularly. He's sharp, savvy and pressures fighters like no-one I've seen since Chavez. He's the puncher and Ward's been down (quite heavily) before.

It would be a great fight.

I reckon Frampton could bang out Uchiyama at 130.................

After all he looks good against 122 pounders..........

Haz just temper your enthusiasm mate until he beats someone decent.......

Put Murray on a fab 5 list with Benn, Eubank, Collins and Watson.........at middle he finishes last....

Put Ward on it at 168 and he finishes Top !!

Murray is second or third at a talent less weight...........

Calzaghe is slightly overrated by some but he would absolutely school GGG at 168 if he were around now. I honestly think Ward could beat him quite comfortably as well.

GGG is a good exciting fighter but I do not think he would be near as effective up a weight class. I'm sure he would still have power but he would also be taking shots from bigger men as well.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I reckon Frampton could bang out Uchiyama at 130.................

After all he looks good against 122 pounders..........

Haz just temper your enthusiasm mate until he beats someone decent.......

Put Murray on a fab 5 list with Benn, Eubank, Collins and Watson.........at middle he finishes last....

Put Ward on it at 168 and he finishes Top !!

Murray is second or third at a talent less weight...........

Ok. You let me know when I can have an opinion on Golovkin. As soon as you give me the green light I'll post one up again.

Would the middleweight version of Nigel Benn have been able to push Martinez like Murray managed? Nigel's my boy but I'm not confident he could have - he'd have gassed at 160.

I like Murray against Collins, also. Overrated for me.

AdamT wrote:Calzaghe is slightly overrated by some but he would absolutely school GGG at 168 if he were around now. I honestly think Ward could beat him quite comfortably as well.

GGG is a good exciting fighter but I do not think he would be near as effective up a weight class. I'm sure he would still have power but he would also be taking shots from bigger men as well.

I strongly doubt anyone "absolutely schools" Golovkin unless he loses his desire (which seems unlikely). The fact you're having to compare him to the best two super mddleweights of the past decade (when he's a middleweight) says a lot.

Benn would have destroyed that version of Martinez, he was done and Murray gets too much credit despite not cementing the win.

Benn and Eubank on song also knock out Murray.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Benn would have destroyed that version of Martinez, he was done and Murray gets too much credit despite not cementing the win.

Benn and Eubank on song also knock out Murray.

As a middleweight, Benn had difficulty fighting 12 rounds (he cut so much weight he was devastating early but faded late). The only fight where he fought an ordered game plan (at 160) was Doug DeWitt - who was little more than an iron-jawed punching bag.

I'm not sure that would have been enough against Martinez (the version Murray arguably beat).

Benn became a much better fighter at 168.

I doubt he'd have needed more than a few rounds to finish things, this wasn't a version of Martinez anywhere near his best, he was awful that night.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I doubt he'd have needed more than a few rounds to finish things, this wasn't a version of Martinez anywhere near his best, he was awful that night.

If Murray can have one regret It's not being more positive against Sergio............

Certainly up on offer that night Martinez !!..........

I didn't disagree with the Sturm decision either.........

Wouldn't pick Sturm to beat any of the Big Brit four either !! or five If you include Herol...

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I doubt he'd have needed more than a few rounds to finish things, this wasn't a version of Martinez anywhere near his best, he was awful that night.

He was flat and had to contend with a broken hand but still managed to turn on the style down the stretch. I think he'd have tired Benn out (the middleweight version).

To be honest though Haz it's a redundant effort to try to debate with a guy who thinks Manny is a pointless win for Mayweather because he's a 3-1 favorite.........

Yet Murray who was a bigger underdog and ten times crapper is a quality win .........

Don't you think it's redundant debating with someone like that ?????????????

I'd like to see GGG fight Quillin before moving up. Quillin can box and hits hard and that's the sort of fighter that could make it interesting against GGG.

Doubt he'd want the fight and may be overrating him a tad but I think he's the best of what's left and style wise might be a good watch.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:To be honest though Haz it's a redundant effort to try to debate with a guy who thinks Manny is a pointless win for Mayweather because he's a 3-1 favorite.........

Yet Murray who was a bigger underdog and ten times crapper is a quality win .........

Don't you think it's redundant debating with someone like that ?????????????

I haven't claimed Pacquiao is a pointless win - merely that Floyd is an overwhelming favourite (and so Floyd fans need not worry about their hero losing his zero). Pacquiao - even now - will probably register as Floyd's most challenging opponent.

The obsession with Floyd is quite wearing. You drag him into every single debate hoping we'll all agree with your myopic view on him.

RanjitPatel wrote:I'd like to see GGG fight Quillin before moving up. Quillin can box and hits hard and that's the sort of fighter that could make it interesting against GGG.

Doubt he'd want the fight and may be overrating him a tad but I think he's the best of what's left and style wise might be a good watch.

Here's what's left:

•Miguel Cotto, who beat Martinez to earn the lineal title.
•Andy Lee, who knocked out Matt Korobov for the WBO title.
•Peter Quillin, who will fight Lee in April.
•Hassan N'dam N'jikam, who routed Curtis Stevens in October.
•David Lemieux, who is in talks to face N'dam later this year.

So, likely Cotto, Quillin and Lemieux. Frustratingly, Lee and N'dam N'jinkam are more likely to sign for the fight.

Perhaps HBO can throw some dough at Cotto (if he decides to keep the WBC belt).

I just want to see him fight someone decent.........

Instead of brave..... limited types........

Geale lost to Barker............
Macklin lost to Sturm and Sergio..........
Murray lost to and drew with Macklin's conquerors..........

Living in a perverse world when someone slags off unbeaten number 1 at 154 Alvarez..............and lauds these wins to the hilt !!........

When ever GGG has even beat someone as good as an undefeated Corrales or multi times world champs like shane and Oscar then I will give him the same hype.

As I have mentioned previously, Ward beats him easily if he is as good as he was before the long layoff.

Even in his advancing years I still think Froch would stand a chance too.

hazharrison wrote:I like Murray against Collins, also. Overrated for me.

I think Murray and Collins are a similar kind of level overall. Collins gets a bit of a raw deal in terms of how he's remembered in comparison to Eubank and Benn, though, and I'd give him an edge over Murray in terms of performing at a high level.

Benn was definitely badly over the hill by 1996 when Collins beat him twice, to be fair, but his pair of wins over Eubank the year before are better than a lot of people want to admit. The way some talk, you'd think Eubank was a decrepit old man and a shadow of a formerly great fighter. He certainly wasn't as dangerous a man as he was pre-Watson, but almost four years had elapsed between that and the Collins fights and he'd spent those four years fighting basically the same way he approached Collins, which was still good enough to draw with Benn, get a good result in Germany against Rocchigiani etc. Eubank was sleep-walking for eight rounds against Collins in the first fight before coming on very strong at the end, by which time Collins wasn't getting much of a look in - but Collins was still a deserved winner. Maybe it comes with the caveat that Eubank contributed to his own downfall and effectively lost it as much as Collins won it, but Collins gave him the rematch and came out on top again with no such mitigating factors.

Murray got a just about fair enough draw with Sturm and lost a contentious one to a faded Martinez, which collectively isn't that much different to Collins losing a very, very narrow one to Johnson (surprisingly good fight which Reggie only just got home in) and coming up a little short against a faded Kalambay, give or take, although I'd certainly put Johnson at a higher level than Sturm. Murray's loss to Martinez and Collins' loss to Kalambay could both possibly be classed as decent opportunities missed out on, considering that they were getting those guys at a decent time and given what a similarly faded, blown up Cotto and a relatively average Pyatt were able to do with Martinez and Kalambay respectively not long after those fights. But when you compare who Collins was fighting in 1992 compared to who Benn and Eubank were feasting on at the time, it's easy to feel a bit of sympathy for the Irishman.

I think both Murray and Collins are primarily durable, fit lads who maximise their ability - just that Murray is the neater, more organised boxer of the pair whereas Collins was the more aggressive, tenacious of the two. But neither are particularly skilled or inspiring.

I would pick Collins, though I am Irish so probably some what biased to be honest!

hazharrison wrote:

RanjitPatel wrote:I'd like to see GGG fight Quillin before moving up. Quillin can box and hits hard and that's the sort of fighter that could make it interesting against GGG.

Doubt he'd want the fight and may be overrating him a tad but I think he's the best of what's left and style wise might be a good watch.

Here's what's left:

•Miguel Cotto, who beat Martinez to earn the lineal title.
•Andy Lee, who knocked out Matt Korobov for the WBO title.
•Peter Quillin, who will fight Lee in April.
•Hassan N'dam N'jikam, who routed Curtis Stevens in October.
•David Lemieux, who is in talks to face N'dam later this year.

So, likely Cotto, Quillin and Lemieux. Frustratingly, Lee and N'dam N'jinkam are more likely to sign for the fight.

Perhaps HBO can throw some dough at Cotto (if he decides to keep the WBC belt).

I can't see Roach and Cotto ever agreeing to fight GGG. Doubt they'd even see it as an option.

Quillin beats Lee then that's the fight for GGG. Hopefully Cotto has vacated and gone back down by then so it could be a unification of sorts. Hopefully there's a new star/s on the way up at middleweight as it doesn't look to good for Golovkin to make a career at the weight at the moment. I think he should wait until September to see what happens with Cotto and then decide about moving. He could have a fight at 168 in the meantime.

I just want to add that I'm not a big fan of Quillin but when I thought about who's left at the weight then he seemed the best fit style wise. May be wrong but the others I'd guess would all get walked through and blitzed early.

RanjitPatel wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

RanjitPatel wrote:I'd like to see GGG fight Quillin before moving up. Quillin can box and hits hard and that's the sort of fighter that could make it interesting against GGG.

Doubt he'd want the fight and may be overrating him a tad but I think he's the best of what's left and style wise might be a good watch.

Here's what's left:

•Miguel Cotto, who beat Martinez to earn the lineal title.
•Andy Lee, who knocked out Matt Korobov for the WBO title.
•Peter Quillin, who will fight Lee in April.
•Hassan N'dam N'jikam, who routed Curtis Stevens in October.
•David Lemieux, who is in talks to face N'dam later this year.

So, likely Cotto, Quillin and Lemieux. Frustratingly, Lee and N'dam N'jinkam are more likely to sign for the fight.

Perhaps HBO can throw some dough at Cotto (if he decides to keep the WBC belt).

I can't see Roach and Cotto ever agreeing to fight GGG. Doubt they'd even see it as an option.

Quillin beats Lee then that's the fight for GGG. Hopefully Cotto has vacated and gone back down by then so it could be a unification of sorts. Hopefully there's a new star/s on the way up at middleweight as it doesn't look to good for Golovkin to make a career at the weight at the moment. I think he should wait until September to see what happens with Cotto and then decide about moving. He could have a fight at 168 in the meantime.

I just want to add that I'm not a big fan of Quillin but when I thought about who's left at the weight then he seemed the best fit style wise. May be wrong but the others I'd guess would all get walked through and blitzed early.

Quillin's certainly talented. I'm just not sure what his situation is with Haymon.

What I saw was GGG produce a solid performance against a very durable opponent and win in convincing fashion. Murray had limited success but I don't think GGG feared his power and was happy to take a few to get his shots off.

I've always considered myself a bit of digger so it's gutting that Murray is considered a powder puncher when I could only beat on points a lad he stopped in the third.

I'll put it down to his superior fitness combined with my love of XTC, cigarettes and alcohol.

3fingers wrote:

I'll put it down to his superior fitness combined with my love of XTC,

Skylarking is a great album.