France vs Wales

First topic message reminder :

15. Halfpenny, 14. Williams, 13. Davies, 12. Roberts, 11. North, 10. Biggar, 9. Webb, 8. Faletau, 7. Warburton(c), 6. Lydiate, 5. Charteris, 4. AWJ, 3. Lee, 2. Baldwin, 1. Jenkins.
Replacements: Richard Hibbard (Gloucester), Paul James (Bath), Aaron Jarvis (Ospreys), Bradley Davies (Wasps), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Mike Phillips (Racing Metro), Rhys Priestland (Scarlets), Scott Williams (Scarlets).

Some changes to in the pack to counter the France scrum and lineout drive threat - Baldwin to start is a bold call though. Our bench is better this week, apart from the replacement halfbacks.



France team announced:
Dulin - Huget, Lamerat, Fofana, Guitoune - (o) Lopez, (m) Parra - Le Roux, Chouly, Dusautoir (cap) - Maestri, Taofifenua - Slimani, Guirado, Ben Arous.

Subs: Kayser, Debaty, Atonio, Suta, Goujon, Tillous-Borde, Tales, Bastareaud.

mystiroakey wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Knowing France they will hammer England and then go on to win the RWC.

That doesn't add up. But ok.

With France, it never needs to It certainly didn't add up last time (WC).

They have never won a World Cup. But england are the team that it didn't really add up in 2007.

People need to stop this urban myth about france. They are just a standard team that is a bit inconsistent and at best 4th in the NH. England gifted them last years game.. 

Even if you believe in this magical French team that can do anything on any random occasional, can anyone see them crushing england and winning the World Cup. I can't rememebr either ever happening..

mystiroakey wrote:They have never won a World Cup. But england are the team that it didn't really add up in 2007.

People need to stop this urban myth about france. They are just a standard team that is a bit inconsistent and at best 4th in the NH. England gifted them last years game.. 

Even if you believe in this magical French team that can do anything on any random occasional, can anyone see them crushing england and winning the World Cup. I can't rememebr either ever happening..

It doesn't matter what they are.  It's what they do.  And in terms of NH consistency in the World Cup, France are it.  It doesn't matter how they do it or have done it, they've had a good run at it - without winning it.  And last time, they played so badly they should never have expected to get out of their pool - but instead they got to a white knuckle ride final with the ABs.

So it doesn't matter what people think, oakey.  It doesn't matter if they're underrated or overrated.  It doesn't matter what urban myths are on the go.  
It's what they do that matters.  And that can still be a high degree of the erratic.
Crushing England? - No.
Beating England - well they did last year.

First chance to get on since the game yesterday so here goes:

First I am never afraid to admit when wrong and Jenkins and North both proved me wrong which is what I wanted.

Jenkins' scrummaging was much improved probably helped by the efforts of Baldwin and Charteris.

North got involved more and went looking for work a lot more than he has done of late, though think he could have made more of one of his chances when he cut in rather than staying on the outside.

The whole performance was a hell of a lot better than the last two games and the changes helped that (though Williams was quiet), Baldwin helped improve our lineout whilst Charteris done what he was picked to do spoil and be a total nuisance.

I though Roberts was fantastic in 1st half and given the way he ran its no surprise he faded a bit in the 2nd. JD had one of his best games for sometime and carried really well and run some good lines.

I wouldn't make any changes for Ireland but the one area which still frustrates me is the way we start tournaments slow and end chasing things. I know Gatland says we improve once he has the players for longer but he has access to most the players for longer than any other coach has had in the past.

Come the WC we have to hit the ground running, I know we have Uruguay first up but in a group that I still think will be decided on points we need to make sure we get as many points against them as we can rather than just get the win.

mystiroakey wrote:They have never won a World Cup. But england are the team that it didn't really add up in 2007.

People need to stop this urban myth about france. They are just a standard team that is a bit inconsistent and at best 4th in the NH. England gifted them last years game.. 

Even if you believe in this magical French team that can do anything on any random occasional, can anyone see them crushing england and winning the World Cup. I can't rememebr either ever happening..

?

Yes, of course, they're France. That's the whole point, no oner team can be so truculent one day and imperious the next. Long may it continue

Winning the Championship is back on!

Just need to beat Ireland by 10 and Italy by 40-50. No issues.

JDizzle wrote:Winning the Championship is back on!

Just need to beat Ireland by 10 and Italy by 40-50. No issues.

What if England put a shed load on Scotland though

Can't see it. Scotland have defended reasonable well, and they'll be keen to bounce back from yesterday.

In all seriousness though, I don't see us winning the title. I don't see us beating Ireland, they have our number, and even if we did I don't think we'll get the points needed. A man can dream though.

JD,

I wouldn't be totally surprised if we beat Ireland but like you I just don't think we will get enough points in the bag to win on points.

We have Itlay as first game on super Saturday so the other teams playing after us will know what they have to do etc.

What if Scotland and France take a couple more wins?

Yeah................ what if Italy take a couple of more wins? Stranger things have happened.

I can see us struggling out in Italy. It's happened before and, regardless of a decent win over a poor French team, we're still not firing on all cyclinders. 

Ireland for me will be incredibly hard. Potentially a close and nervy game. But this year my gut tells me Ireland. And then Italy away will be tough.

I'll tell you what.  This is the best deal I can give you Welsh guys.  
We play England in your Pool of the WC - we seem to get a better shot at them than you guys lately.  And in return for that, you play France in our pool, as you seem to seriously have their number



Now that's the best I can do.  Oh, and if we agree - we also agree to call it a day in 6N and 'not play no more' to keep all our best players fit enough to f**king well Play in a bloody World Cup in the first place!

Deal! 

Now that's a World Cup format for the future - trading pool groups! The top 20 (or how ever many there are) qualify and then starts a big free for all where everyone gets to trade places with each other. A bit like a football transfer window. Everyone trying to leg it from the ABs at close of play on 'transfer deadline day'. Sky Sports to televise live outside the training grounds of the international teams. Gatland to stop for a chat out of his car window, Harry Redknapp style!

Chuffed with the win. The team surprised me in the lineouts and rolling maul, much improved.

Glad that a lot of people can eat there own words about our scrum seing as it was dead certain that wales were going to get 'smashed' in the scrum. Samson Lee and Gethin were great together, not just in the scrum but around the park. Yet again Gethin proves he still has a lot more gas in the tank and is still a strong scrummager.

Alyn wyn and roberts were again awesome. Alyn Wyn's work rate ridiculous and Roberts was at his best in defense and ball carrying.

Irish up next and even though we played well, I don;t think the Irish had a weakness in their game against England. They were outstanding and are looking like a very very hard team to beat. Their depth and impact off the bench is also a worry seeing as we have none.

Jhamer25 wrote:Chuffed with the win. The team surprised me in the lineouts and rolling maul, much improved.

Glad that a lot of people can eat there own words about our scrum seing as it was dead certain that wales were going to get 'smashed' in the scrum. Samson Lee and Gethin were great together, not just in the scrum but around the park. Yet again Gethin proves he still has a lot more gas in the tank and is still a strong scrummager.

Alyn wyn and roberts were again awesome. Alyn Wyn's work rate ridiculous and Roberts was at his best in defense and ball carrying.

Irish up next and even though we played well, I don;t think the Irish had a weakness in their game against England. They were outstanding and are looking like a very very hard team to beat. Their depth and impact off the bench is also a worry seeing as we have none.

I've always been a Jenkins fan, but I often criticise him in the scrum without really knowing the ins and outs. He seems marmite with refs. Seems to yo yo each week between penalised and dominant. How much do you think he needs a good hooker and 2nd row? I know very little about the scrum but the obvious difference was Baldwin and The Roof Inspector Charteris. Could they take some credit for Jenkins' reversal in fortune (someone else mentioned it earlier too)? I imagine some LH props can hold their own regardless of hooker and 2nd row? Do some (like Gethin) need additional support?

I thought Charteris was in great form, whether he shored up the scrum line and maul is debateable but he earned his selection. I would have him and AWJ as first choice locks.

Any news on Warburton?

I have been one of Jenkins' harshest critics for sometime now, I think he has been fantastic in years gone by and was quite rightly one of if not these best around in his prime.

The reason I slated him was of late and certainly in first 2 games his scrummaging, which for me is his primary job was poor at best but he proved on Saturday he can still cut it and I am more than happy to eat my words and be proved wrong. I wonder how much it was aided by the selection of Baldwin and Charteris?

What i do struggle with about Jenkins as with Wales is that he takes a few games to get fully up to speed which as I have said before we can't keep doing, we need to hit the ground running from the off and definitely in the WC.

maestegmafia wrote:I thought Charteris was in great form, whether he shored up the scrum line and maul is debateable but he earned his selection. I would have him and AWJ as first choice locks.

Any news on Warburton?

Maes,

I think Charteris done what he was asked to do and that was to be a complete and utter nuisance in the lineout and the maul which he was. What I also liked was on a few occasions you could see him ask the ref was he ok to try and challenge for the ball in the maul rather than just blindly go in and get pinged etc.

Paul James ruled out for rest or tournament still awaiting news on Biggar and Warburton.

With Rob Evans in the squad anyway I would expect to see him step onto the bench and its a great chance for him, if they are to call anyone else into the squad whose next in line, Bevington I guess is it.

Phil Price?!

Griff wrote:Phil Price?!

Is he on the radar though Griff? Don't rate Bevington but he has had some involvement with the squad in the past.

Just a joke really. Don't think we'll ever see a Dragons prop in the Wales set up. Dee at hooker though, maybe.

So probably Bevington. Any expats that could step in and step up? What about Whatshisface at Saracens? LH or TH???

Griff wrote:Just a joke really. Don't think we'll ever see a Dragons prop in the Wales set up. Dee at hooker though, maybe.

So probably Bevington. Any expats that could step in and step up? What about Whatshisface at Saracens? LH or TH???

Rhys Gill, yeah he's a loose head and has played well in his few caps but not sure how much game time he has had after coming back from a nasty leg break plus he dropped down pecking order behind Mako as well.

Sam Hobbs.

Bevington has played two games since returning.

Griff wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:Chuffed with the win. The team surprised me in the lineouts and rolling maul, much improved.

Glad that a lot of people can eat there own words about our scrum seing as it was dead certain that wales were going to get 'smashed' in the scrum. Samson Lee and Gethin were great together, not just in the scrum but around the park. Yet again Gethin proves he still has a lot more gas in the tank and is still a strong scrummager.

Alyn wyn and roberts were again awesome. Alyn Wyn's work rate ridiculous and Roberts was at his best in defense and ball carrying.

Irish up next and even though we played well, I don;t think the Irish had a weakness in their game against England. They were outstanding and are looking like a very very hard team to beat. Their depth and impact off the bench is also a worry seeing as we have none.

I've always been a Jenkins fan, but I often criticise him in the scrum without really knowing the ins and outs. He seems marmite with refs. Seems to yo yo each week between penalised and dominant. How much do you think he needs a good hooker and 2nd row? I know very little about the scrum but the obvious difference was Baldwin and The Roof Inspector Charteris. Could they take some credit for Jenkins' reversal in fortune (someone else mentioned it earlier too)? I imagine some LH props can hold their own regardless of hooker and 2nd row? Do some (like Gethin) need additional support?

The thing with Gethin is he is a powerful scrummager but not as strong as the likes of Ayerza, Paul James, Corbisiero who rely on a lot of their core strength and leg drive to stay square in the scrum (Gethin has Chicken Legs compared to most props) which is why he then rely's a lot on his technique when up against strong tight heads like Slimani and Cole. I watched the rugby club the other night with Adam Jones and he was brilliant; It's a really good segment to watch. Adam describes the two main ways a looshead will scrummage. Gethins has a wide stance when he scrummages and loosens his bind from his so he can work on the tightheads chest. Loosheads who use this approach do risk a lot more of being penalised though because when they do get a nudge on their tight head it can be seen as not driving straight or with stronger tightheads like Adam Jones was will just Power through the loose bind and put a lot of pressure on the Hooker and when that does happen the loosehead will try and call for a reset by dropping their bind but when the loosehead gets the shove on the tight head, the tight head then tend to drop their outside shoulder which will also cause the scrum to collapse and this is what we see more and more of in todays game and why a lot of the time it has become a 50/50 call
But i find a lot of referees have different interpretations on a scrum especially the french and southern hemisphere refs which really frustrates me and is a big reason for the inconsistent calls at scrum time; yes a lot of the blame is on the props but the call on who is at fault can be completely different from one ref to another.
A strong Hooker who knows who their targeting in the scrum can do as much damage and their props as long as the props are able to do their own job. Baldwin was great in the scrum becuase he and Gethin isolated their main scrummaging threat (Slimani) as Gethin came across his chest on the one side and Baldwin worked on the others side of Slimani by driving through on him. Baldwin was brilliant all game where as Hibbard to me has looked like dead weight the first two games so yea he did add a lot to the scrum. Charteris not so much because Jake ball is a good scrummaging lock and works in tandem with Samson Lee at the Scarlets and both have helped transform the scarlets scrum into a weapon where before them it was a liability. So I personally think Jake Ball adds more to a scrum than Luke but Luke completely justified his selection in the Line outs.

Jhamer,

The scrum as whole went better with Baldwin and Charteris so it's a tough call I think and certainly feel its harsh on Ball to have been dropped all together.

I'm hoping Jake will be back on the bench for Ireland. Gatland has a Bit of a Phillip Saint Andre moment by dropping him all together because it makes him wonder what he has done wrong when Gatland himself said he has done nothing wrong. Jake could be a good impact player but Alyn Wyn and Charteris should start for the rest of the championship.

I'd love to see Rhys Gill come in as cover now, we need him back playing in Wales, watched him few weeks ago when he played a giant South African Bulls pack and he destroyed his opposite number (Werner Kruger) . Also i've been hearing Tomas Francis has been destroying scrums of late in the the premiership; when i've seen him myself I have been really impressed but im hearing more and more of him. I really hope we cap him soon because he looks very promising

Francis destroyed Dragons scrum t'other week, albeit we had a tighthead playing loosehead which doesn't really help matters.