South Africa's RWC Chances hit?

" South Africa rugby to include seven non-white players"
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All 23 man squads from now on must include seven non-white players, including at least two black africans. According to the article, for SA's last test the "Beast" was the only Black African. Could have sworn Lwazi Mvovo would also count.

Any way how close to complying with this regulation have recent squads been?

In the last test against Wales

Black African starters

Mtawarira
Mvovo
Mahoje

Cape Coloured

Hendricks
De Allende

Not sure who were subs not used. Will certainly hit their chances though.

Its fine if chaps like Habana, Hendricks and Mtawarira are fit but what happens if they are not? Then you really start to scrape the barrel in terms of talent and its then that the rule will truly hurt.

They will lose test matches over this, that is undeniable.

Will world rugby take a stand on this, will they hell.

I think it's a bad way to go. Not good for the side, but also does nothing for racial equality. Only there for the quota makes them look like second raters who need help. People like Chester Williams and Bryan Habana show that if they are good enough they will get picked.

fa0019 wrote:Will world rugby take a stand on this, will they hell.

Im pretty sure these kind of quotas are against Olympic regulations which could have an impact.

Post-Apartheid there may have been a need for something like this but not today, from the little I read about this when it was first mooted the consensus was that its not a lack of non whites playing the game but a lack of investment in structures, facilities and coaching to develop the players from government and union level.

Habana only counts as non-white not black african. Mtawarira has nothad the best injury/fitness record.

goes a lot further than that Marty I agree.

Without trying to push this into too much of a racial topic.... rugby is a game of extremes.
You'd be hard picked to find a springbok who isn't over 6'0. Bryan Habana and a few scrumhalves. That's it.
White South Africans on average are 5'11 in height. Black South Africans on average are 5'5 in height.

When you see cape coloured sides in club rugby you hardly ever see a guy over 6ft. They're all 5'9 tall, 5'9 wide.

Improve the diet of the masses, improve the healthcare and you'll see more Africans coming through. Also Coloured and Whites pick up the game from 5. Black Africans prefer soccer overall and don't pick up the game as early. Its quite a big deal.

LondonTiger wrote:Habana only counts as non-white not black african. Mtawarira has nothad the best injury/fitness record.

The non funny thing is... its chaps like Habana who are the most discriminated in South Africa.

During Apartheid it was

Whites

----------------
Coloured
Indian
Africans

Post Apartheid its

African
--------------------
Coloured
Indian
-----------------------
White

Cape Coloured and Indians get a little bit of preferential treatment but not much and nothing in comparison to Africans. They were discriminated in the past and discriminated now. It really shows when you see that the majority of Cape Coloureds vote for the old white parties rather than the African parties in politics. Things are not that much better for them now then it was under white rule.

Here are the non white players who have played for the Springboks since 2012

Black African
T Mtawarira - regular starter
TN Nyakane - regular bench
S Kolisi - have fallen out of favour, doesn't make the starting line up for WP
TS Mohoje - Regular starter last year, not good enough work rate
LN Mvovo - average at best
M Ralepelle - banned

Coloured players
BG Habana - regular starter
JPR Pietersen - regular starter
Z Kirchner - dropped
GG Steenkamp - too old, too slow
C Hendricks - regular last year, questions about his defence
BA Basson - dropped
JL de Jongh - too small according to Meyer
D de Allende - debuted last year, will become a regular feature
N Carr - Debuted last year, excellent player
ET Jantjies - dropped
GG Aplon - left SA because Meyer thinks he is too small.

SO I suspect there will be at least 3 Black African players in the 31 man squad, Beast, Trevor, Oupa. Here Oupa needs to up his work rate significantly to get to international standard.

I suspect at least 7 coloured players.

Bryan Habana, JP Pietersen, Nizaam Carr, Damien de Allende, Cornal Hendricks, these guys have satisfied Meyer, but we short 2.

Problem is BB is that a lot of those players play in the same position.

Its the old PDivvy and his 75 players comment. Their may be 75 ACI players good enough to play for the boks... but if they're all wingers there are only 5 spots for them in a 30 man squad.

Mvovo
Habana
Pietersen
Kirchner
Hendricks
Basson
Aplon

Well I remember chatting about this and how it might impact on South African chances months ago.

Anyway.  It's a very sticky area though.

When does positive discrimination actually just hold its hand up and confess to being just plain old ordinary negative discrimination?

'Positive' discrimination I find to be a very questionable philosophy.

Black?
Coloured?
White?
Caucasian?
Indian?

What about just 'South African' without the colour or lack of it being recognised at all?

Formally colour coding versions of Nationhood only serves to keep the distinctions alive. The best way to approach the problem is to address it as a class issue.  There are South Africans of certain classes and in some regions that don't have the chances to participate as fully in rugby as others do, rather than addressing those divisions on racial grounds.

SecretFly wrote:What about just 'South African' without the colour or lack of it being recognised at all?

Not going to happen, the ANC use issues like this to benefit them and their agendas.

fa0019 wrote:Problem is BB is that a lot of those players play in the same position.

Its the old PDivvy and his 75 players comment. Their may be 75 ACI players good enough to play for the boks... but if they're all wingers there are only 5 spots for them in a 30 man squad.

Mvovo
Habana
Pietersen
Kirchner
Hendricks
Basson
Aplon

Well PDV is talking shyte, he has his own agendas trying to get a decent coaching job.

There aren't 75 ACI players good enough to play for the Boks, maybe for Namibia, but not for us.

The reality is when these quotas come effective it will influence our world ranking without a doubt. And there is little we can do about it.

Biltong wrote:

SecretFly wrote:What about just 'South African' without the colour or lack of it being recognised at all?

Not going to happen, the ANC use issues like this to benefit them and their agendas.

Similar to Kirchner and Argentina and "the Malvinas" question. Whenever she gets in trouble.... out comes "the Malvinas" card and all of a sudden people forget what a crook she is.

Same with race and SA.

Blackouts.... "its all due to the apartheid government last in power 21 years ago".

Biltong wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Problem is BB is that a lot of those players play in the same position.

Its the old PDivvy and his 75 players comment. Their may be 75 ACI players good enough to play for the boks... but if they're all wingers there are only 5 spots for them in a 30 man squad.

Mvovo
Habana
Pietersen
Kirchner
Hendricks
Basson
Aplon

Well PDV is talking shyte, he has his own agendas trying to get a decent coaching job.

There aren't 75 ACI players good enough to play for the Boks, maybe for Namibia, but not for us.

The reality is when these quotas come effective it will influence our world ranking without a doubt. And there is little we can do about it.

75 was a little high I agree

But wouldn't you agree that he was badly misquoted in the press concerning this comment? Most journalists "forgot" to add his last comment (that they were all wingers and therefore only a handful could be selected at any one time).

Biltong wrote:

SecretFly wrote:What about just 'South African' without the colour or lack of it being recognised at all?

Not going to happen, the ANC use issues like this to benefit them and their agendas.

Well apartheid is still churning then.

The sickening thing is not so much distinctions between Black South Africans and White South Africans - that's an age old story that involves colonialism and imperialism and oppression and land rights etc etc.  It's history.  Feuds will be feuds.

But then the newer distinction based on skin colour/mixed lineage that are so readily officially adopted are much more frightening.  I mean its a sick joke that a player like Habana gets talked about in terms of 'quotas' and gets defined under those quotas (not through his ability) in terms of him not being 'Black' but being 'non-white'.

Hmmm, how to squeeze Habana in????  Will we term him Black or would we have more success calling him 'non-white'?????  If it wasn't so serious it would be funny.

LondonTiger wrote:" South Africa rugby to include seven non-white players"
Click Here

All 23 man squads from now on must include seven non-white players, including at least two black africans. According to the article, for SA's last test the "Beast" was the only Black African. Could have sworn Lwazi Mvovo would also count.

Any way how close to complying with this regulation have recent squads been?

Doesnt seem quite right to categorise people by colour. I understand what they are trying to do and the motivation for it is coming from a good place but perhaps the SARU should not volunteer so much information on it as it does smack of labelling people.

Imagine someone looking at you and then telling you that you qualify for a quota based on how you look I think that would make me feel really uneasy.

fa0019 wrote:

Biltong wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Problem is BB is that a lot of those players play in the same position.

Its the old PDivvy and his 75 players comment. Their may be 75 ACI players good enough to play for the boks... but if they're all wingers there are only 5 spots for them in a 30 man squad.

Mvovo
Habana
Pietersen
Kirchner
Hendricks
Basson
Aplon

Well PDV is talking shyte, he has his own agendas trying to get a decent coaching job.

There aren't 75 ACI players good enough to play for the Boks, maybe for Namibia, but not for us.

The reality is when these quotas come effective it will influence our world ranking without a doubt. And there is little we can do about it.

75 was a little high I agree

But wouldn't you agree that he was badly misquoted in the press concerning this comment? Most journalists "forgot" to add his last comment (that they were all wingers and therefore only a handful could be selected at any one time).

FA, I a going to be very honest with you, prior to the RWC in 1995, I thought to myself we will have one chance to win the RWC and at most 2 chances, I expected the ANC to enforce quotas be it officially or unofficially, through the years that has been the case, I can list you a number of players who were dropped for inferior non white players, but I just let it be as I knew transformation was inevitable, much like everything happening in SA currently.

My hope was that enough non white players would take up the game and become international quality so that we could continue to be a force in world rugby.

We have now reached that point where the ANC is no longer subtle about it, and demand quotas.

I knew this day would eventually come, and therefor when we won the 2007 RWC for the second time, I was satisfied that at least we have our name on the trophy so even if our rugby went down the toilet there after that cannot be taken away from us.

In future I will still support the Boks, I will just have to learn to lower my expectations of them.

I find it a sad state of affairs that this is being forced upon the team. Whatever happened to picking the best person for the job no matter what they look like etc.
It will cause tension amongst the team as people will feel some of the non whites are only in there to fill the quota. Also there will be white players who will feel discriminated against as they might not make the boks squad now as they have been replaced by someone purely to fill a quota and tick a box.
It should be whoever is the best player gets picked, whether that be 15 white players, 15 black players or whatever.

SA are still ranked 2nd in the world. Cant be that bad.

Biltong wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Biltong wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Problem is BB is that a lot of those players play in the same position.

Its the old PDivvy and his 75 players comment. Their may be 75 ACI players good enough to play for the boks... but if they're all wingers there are only 5 spots for them in a 30 man squad.

Mvovo
Habana
Pietersen
Kirchner
Hendricks
Basson
Aplon

Well PDV is talking shyte, he has his own agendas trying to get a decent coaching job.

There aren't 75 ACI players good enough to play for the Boks, maybe for Namibia, but not for us.

The reality is when these quotas come effective it will influence our world ranking without a doubt. And there is little we can do about it.

75 was a little high I agree

But wouldn't you agree that he was badly misquoted in the press concerning this comment? Most journalists "forgot" to add his last comment (that they were all wingers and therefore only a handful could be selected at any one time).

FA, I a going to be very honest with you, prior to the RWC in 1995, I thought to myself we will have one chance to win the RWC and at most 2 chances, I expected the ANC to enforce quotas be it officially or unofficially, through the years that has been the case, I can list you a number of players who were dropped for inferior non white players, but I just let it be as I knew transformation was inevitable, much like everything happening in SA currently.

My hope was that enough non white players would take up the game and become international quality so that we could continue to be a force in world rugby.

We have now reached that point where the ANC is no longer subtle about it, and demand quotas.

I knew this day would eventually come, and therefor when we won the 2007 RWC for the second time, I was satisfied that at least we have our name on the trophy so even if our rugby went down the toilet there after that cannot be taken away from us.

In future I will still support the Boks, I will just have to learn to lower my expectations of them.

As long as the current state of affairs remains I think you are right. I think there is hope but its perhaps 15-20 years off and by then it could be too late for the springboks. If the boere are decimated then nothing will be able to replace them.

I certainly think in 10 years time the bokke will be lucky to hold onto a top 5 world ranking unless the tide changes.

GunsGerms wrote:SA are still ranked 2nd in the world. Cant be that bad.

For how much longer is the question though

It is all the wrong way around. The best way to improve the 'balance' is surely to put money into the development of non white players. Applying quotas at the end is a cheap and nasty way of doing things that doesn't make for good teams.

All it does is allow the politicians to pretend to be doing something about it without spending any money.

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:SA are still ranked 2nd in the world. Cant be that bad.

For how much longer is the question though

I dont think it is possible for any 6 nations teams to overtake them during the six nations so it will depend on how the WC goes and I cant see them losing 2nd spot in the WC either as they should really make the semis. Can only see them consolidating 2nd spot in the rugby championship too.

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:SA are still ranked 2nd in the world. Cant be that bad.

For how much longer is the question though

I dont think it is possible for any 6 nations teams to overtake them during the six nations so it will depend on how the WC goes and I cant see them losing 2nd spot in the WC either as they should really make the semis. Can only see them consolidating 2nd spot in the rugby championship too.

All you have to do to look good is to be better than the opposition. *sigh...

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:SA are still ranked 2nd in the world. Cant be that bad.

For how much longer is the question though

I dont think it is possible for any 6 nations teams to overtake them during the six nations so it will depend on how the WC goes and I cant see them losing 2nd spot in the WC either as they should really make the semis. Can only see them consolidating 2nd spot in the rugby championship too.

All you have to do to look good is to be better than the opposition. *sigh...

A quota of good lookers and uglies? Yeah. Yeah, has a reasonable ring to it. Afterall, its a professional game now and sponsorship is an important part. You don't attract the right kind of sponsors if too many of your players are ugly

lostinwales wrote:It is all the wrong way around. The best way to improve the 'balance' is surely to put money into the development of non white players. Applying quotas at the end is a cheap and nasty way of doing things that doesn't make for good teams.

All it does is allow the politicians to pretend to be doing something about it without spending any money.

Spot On

What about a quota on weight and height to cut down the growing concussion concerns?

SecretFly wrote:
A quota of good lookers and uglies?  Yeah.  Yeah, has a reasonable ring to it.  Afterall, its a professional game now and sponsorship is an important part.  You don't attract the right kind of sponsors if too many of your players are ugly

England seems to do alright.

GunsGerms wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
A quota of good lookers and uglies?  Yeah.  Yeah, has a reasonable ring to it.  Afterall, its a professional game now and sponsorship is an important part.  You don't attract the right kind of sponsors if too many of your players are ugly

England seems to do alright.

Well Pet Food sponsorship is I suppose okay in a dog loving nation. "Marler, Marler! Come here boy. Heel. Heel. HEEL!!! Down Boy!!!!!! Down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Call the Ambulan..........................................................................

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:SA are still ranked 2nd in the world. Cant be that bad.

For how much longer is the question though

Assuming no injuries, what would SA's best Matchday 23 look like for their first RC fixture in Brisbane assuming no quota?

Then what would it look like if it had to have two black africans and 5 other non whites?

GunsGerms wrote:

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:SA are still ranked 2nd in the world. Cant be that bad.

For how much longer is the question though

I dont think it is possible for any 6 nations teams to overtake them during the six nations so it will depend on how the WC goes and I cant see them losing 2nd spot in the WC either as they should really make the semis. Can only see them consolidating 2nd spot in the rugby championship too.

Will not happen, but if England win by 15 points on Sunday they would move within 1/2 a point of SA. (A similar win for Ireland, being at home, still leaves them 2 points behind). If England then went on to win the GS they would overtake SA.


If SA are forced to pick players not good enough I can see them losing all their away matches in the RC quite easily, as well as at home to NZ (is it a full set of games?).

You can't look at the RC where it will be affected, you need to look at the RWC and beyond to 2019 when half the team has to be non white.

So the changes will come next year when players are going to retire.

There are no non white players to replace Habana, Pietersen, Beast.

Of the non white players I mentioned the only ones I believe can become star quality players are Nizaam Carr, Damien de Allende and maybe Cornall Hendricks.

Staggering really, they have sought to replace Apartheid with Positive Action.

Quotas never work, even in a country with such a horrific legacy. Not sure Nelson Mandela would approve either and it may really affect the Boks chances if they use racial profiling to pick players.

On the other hand, in a few years I can see a natural emergence of more black players in the Bok side as grassroots rugby brings more on and that is an awesome prospect. Sadly though this could also mean the alienation of some Bok fans, which for rugby's sake is a pity, but perhaps constructively deselecting some elements is what SA rugby needs.

The times are a changin'

It might take a full generation for non-white / black players base to increase in terms of quality and quantity but it should happen eventually. One generation is long so I have a lot of sympathy for BB point about settling for the 2 world cups won and lower its expectation for a while..
Alternatively we send over your ways clones if Bastareaud, Dusautoir or Fofana!

And we can contribute some Polynesians to the cause.

Thanks for the offer guys, but we need to sort this out ourselves.

Majestic83 wrote:I find it a sad state of affairs that this is being forced upon the team. Whatever happened to picking the best person for the job no matter what they look like etc.
It will cause tension amongst the team as people will feel some of the non whites are only in there to fill the quota. Also there will be white players who will feel discriminated against as they might not make the boks squad now as they have been replaced by someone purely to fill a quota and tick a box.
It should be whoever is the best player gets picked, whether that be 15 white players, 15 black players or whatever.

Agree 100%.