Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread VII

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

Ye Olde Banter:

https://www.606v2.com/t48240-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread
https://www.606v2.com/t51313-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-ii
https://www.606v2.com/t53119-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-iii
https://www.606v2.com/t54519-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-iv
https://www.606v2.com/t55409-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-v-the-fun-continues
https://www.606v2.com/t56913p950-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-vi-banter-boogaloo

A. Edinburgh
   

1. League Results

Fri 5 Sep: Munster Rugby 13 - 14 Edinburgh Rugby

Fri 12 Sep: Edinburgh Rugby 13 - 14 Connacht Rugby

Sun 21 Sep: Ospreys 62 - 13 Edinburgh Rugby

Fri 26 Sep: Edinburgh Rugby 20 - 20 Scarlets

Fri 3 Oct: Ulster Rugby 30 - 0 Edinburgh Rugby

Sat 11 Oct: Edinburgh Rugby 24 - 10 Newport Gwent Dragons

Fri 31 Oct: Leinster Rugby 33 - 8 Edinburgh Rugby

Sun 23 Nov: Edinburgh Rugby 28 - 13 Cardiff Blues

Sat 29 Nov: Zebre 18 - 10 Edinburgh Rugby

Fri 19 Dec: Edinburgh Rugby 48 - 0 Benetton Treviso

Sat 27 Dec: Glasgow Warriors 16 - 6 Edinburgh Rugby

Fri 2 Jan: Edinburgh Rugby - 20 - 8 Glasgow Warriors

Fri 9 Jan: Connacht Rugby 13 - 16 Edinburgh Rugby

Fri 13 Feb: Edinburgh Rugby 24 - 16 Ospreys

Fri 20 Feb: Edinburgh Rugby 17 - 20 Ulster Rugby

Sun 1 Mar: Cardiff Blues 21 - 15 Edinburgh Rugby

2. European Results

17/10/14: Bordeaux-Begles 13 - 15 Edinburgh Rugby

24/10/14: Edinburgh Rugby 25 - 17 Lyon

7/12/14: Edinburgh Rugby 25 - 13 London Welsh

14/12/14: London Welsh 6 - 24 Edinburgh Rugby

17/01/2015: Lyon 21 - 19 Edinburgh Rugby

23/01/2015: Edinburgh Rugby 38 - 20 Bordeaux-Begles

B. Glasgow


1. League Results

Sat 6 Sep: Glasgow Warriors 22 - 20 Leinster Rugby

Sun 14 Sep: Cardiff Blues 12 - 33 Glasgow Warriors

Sat 20 Sep: Newport Gwent Dragons 13 - 33 Glasgow Warriors

Fri 26 Sep: Glasgow Warriors 39 - 21 Connacht Rugby

Sun 5 Oct: Benetton Treviso 23 - 40 Glasgow Warriors

Sat 11 Oct: Ulster Rugby 29 - 9 Glasgow Warriors

Fri 31 Oct: Glasgow Warriors 17 - 9 Benetton Treviso

Fri 21 Nov: Scarlets 19 - 9 Glasgow Warriors

Sun 30 Nov: Glasgow Warriors 19 - 15 Newport Gwent Dragons

Sat 20 Dec: Glasgow Warriors 21 - 18 Munster Rugby

Sat 27 Dec: Glasgow Warriors 16 - 6 Edinburgh Rugby

Fri 2 Jan: Edinburgh Rugby 20 - 8 Glasgow Warriors

Fri 9 Jan: Glasgow Warriors 22 - 7 Scarlets

Sun 15 Feb: Zebre 10 - 54 Glasgow Warriors

Sat 21 Feb: Glasgow Warriors 19 - 16 Ospreys

Sat 28 Feb: Munster Rugby 22 - 10 Glasgow Warriors

2. European Results

18/10/14: Glasgow Warriors 37 - 10 Bath Rugby

25/10/14: Montpellier 13 - 15 Glasgow Warriors

7/12/14: Toulouse 19 - 11 Glasgow Warriors

13/12/14: Glasgow Warriors 9 - 12 Toulouse

18/01/2015: Glasgow Warriors 21 - 10 Montpellier

25/01/2015: Bath Rugby 20 - 15 Glasgow Warriors

[RDW]

Ah I see.

Does anyone know how much the 7s squad costs a year? Also, I'm assuming it would still be partially funded from prize money just for taking part?

[Majestic83]

Sevens was invented in Scotland, there is a thriving scene here in the club game, unlike most parts of the world. It is part of our heritage and it would be very irresponsible to walk away from it.

I saw this only semi-facetiously. Sectarianism, a god awful diet, Alex Salmond and Glasgow are all part of our heritage but, let's be honest, we wouldn't (or didn't!) want to keep any of them.  I know what you are saying but the likes of the guys you mentioned might gain more for playing development games against e.g. English academy sides, Pro12 development sides, using the money for travel that would otherwise have been spent on flying the 7s squad round the world on a jolly

The English academy sides wouldn't be interested in playing games against an Edinburgh or Glasgow development side on a regular basis. The English academies have their league in place with the Aviva "A" league. We get the odd game against Sale and Newcastle normally but because they are just friendlies they often don't use their main academy players and trial potential players so don't get the same intensity from them.
I suggested a while ago about a pro 12 "A" league but the Irish fans especially didn't think it would be a goer as the Irish players not involved in playing for their province play for their club teams regularly and wouldn't be interested in setting up an "A" league, also added to that the expense as well of additional teams travelling they felt it would be too much of a money drain for no real benefit to them.

I am in the pro 7s camp. The 7s team has been misused over the years by Steve Gemmill who thought it was a bit of a lads holiday and took his mates on tour instead of developing the younger players.
There is now a coach in place who is making a positive change and developing young players who will get a huge benefit from the experience. The likes of Chris Dean, Damian Hoyland, Alex Glashan aren't ready for XVs just yet but the experience they will have gained over the last year or 2 will have them ready for next season.
The 7s team needs to be used as a way to develop the good young talent who aren't quite ready enough to play xvs with a few experienced 7s specialists to guide them.
The 7s performances have been greatly improved this year and I think will get better if they are fully supported.
I think a lot of the funding for the 7s team comes from Sports Scotland so not sure the SRU actually have to invest a huge amount to the team.

[BigGee]

Sean Cox retiring from LI at the end of the season, going to work in finance.

Was a decent player for Edinburgh, while never really being big enough to be a top class second row, he certainly did not lack in attitude. I will always remember him squaring up to Shontayne Hape in Edinburgh's Euro run a few years back.

Good luck to him for the fuure.

[Majestic83]

With the possible axing of the 7s team, calls for the money to go towards a 3rd pro team. What players from the Scottish club game do people think would be able to step up if a new 3rd team was introduced in the near future?

[Weegie Wizard]

If the decision is between the 7s and the Reds then it is a no brainer. Especially if the main benefit of the 7s is meant to be developing young players. I'm not sure how much but there will be quite a bit of cost difference between the 2 so it isn't as straight forward as we would like.

Some things are worth spending money on.

In terms of players, I'm only really familiar with the Hawks and the answer is probably not many, but then they have not had the best season. In reality, the squad would need to consist of about a dozen Edinburgh & Glasgow squad players, as many u20s as look worthwhile and a few exile/imports to fill the gaps.

Does anyone actually know (or give an informed stab at) the funding figures needed for a pro team assuming gate receipts from 3-4k per game?

[RDW]

5 million a year has been quoted in the past. You can get it from the SRU annual financial statement if anyone can be hooped trawling through that...

[Majestic83]

I'm sure Edinburgh and Glasgow's budget is between 4 & 5 million each. I don't think that is just on players wages, I think that is for everything to run the 2 teams.

I definitely agree a 3rd team is worth spending the money on and think there are more than enough players capable of filling a 3rd team without taking away too many from Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Same on the coaching front there are definitely some very good Scottish coaches who could coach the team.

[Majestic83]

Been taking it easy this afternoon at work so came up with this as a potential squad. The foreign players are just players of the calibre that I would target.
FB
S MacColl, R Robinson,R Fergusson(Ayr)
Wings
J McNicholl, M Russell, D Smith, R Nairn, M Doneghan
Centres
D Taylor , H Jones, K Linnett, T Taylor, P Kelly(Scotland U20s), J Johnstone
Fly Halfs
R Jackson, L Millar, H Leonard, B Kinghorn(Scotland U18s(EDP)
Scrum half
C Cusiter, S Steele , G Horne, B Colvine(Melrose)

Forwards
Props
G Shiells, K Traynor , G Hunter, M Low, N Fraser(north harbour rays), D Rae, S Cessford(Heriots), B Tameifuna,M McCallum(Aberdeen Grammar)
Hookers
F Brown, J Hilterbrand, A Walker, C Davies(Boroughmuir)
Locks
O Atkins, J Hamilton, A Crammond(Toulon, A Sinclair(Albi), N Patrick(Plymouth), L Carmichael(Melrose)
Back Row
J Hill (Heriots), J Beattie , K Murphy(Brive), C Templeton (Ayr), A Thompson , H Blake , C Reid(Accies), J Hardie.

[RDW]

That's all fair and well but how many of those would actually sign, or be able to be signed in time for even the 2016-2017 season?

On paper everything looks rosy but it will be an incredibly difficult job to start a competitive 3rd pro team, and it will take a hell of a lot of money.

That team would probably finish bottom of the Pro 12 for a good few seasons, and that is assuming you'd get all the players mentioned!

Why would a SR player want to come to a brand new Pro team that is likely to get pumped every week?

[Majestic83]

That's all fair and well but how many of those would actually sign, or be able to be signed in time for even the 2016-2017 season?

On paper everything looks rosy but it will be an incredibly difficult job to start a competitive 3rd pro team, and it will take a hell of a lot of money.

That team would probably finish bottom of the Pro 12 for a good few seasons, and that is assuming you'd get all the players mentioned!

Why would a SR player want to come to a brand new Pro team that is likely to get pumped every week?

Of course it would be a struggle and a lot of hard work. That squad was just an example of the potential is out there.
Rome wasn't built in a day so it would take a while to get them competing week in week out.
I think a 3rd team could be competitive fairly quickly with the right type of players and coaches.
Players would come to a new team for all different reasons. Chance to play more regular rugby would be one, money would also be a factor as well. Playing in Scotland would be another factor as obviously the Scotland coaches do prefer to pick players plying their trade over here.

[Weegie Wizard]

We need to work on the assumption that any 3rd team will struggle to finish above the Italians for the first couple of years at least. The head count above is about right but almost half those guys would be EDP players so there will need to be quite a few more proper players.
It will also take a silly amount of discussions with the Irish and arguing with the Welsh to get another team in there. Best get cracking.

[RDW]

The other thing to consider is how much support a new pro team in Aberdeen would get if they were getting pumped week in week out.

Aberdeen has some good rugby clubs but it definitely couldn't be described as a rugby city.

It won't help building a fanbase if you're shipping 50 points every week.

And wizard raises a good point - there's no guarantee the other Pro 12 clubs would let them in! They might be quite against it in fact given the already busy season. So where would they play?

[Weegie Wizard]

I think the most realistic way we will get another team is if the Italians pack it in for their own league set up. I think we would get one more with another going to north Wales.

[BigGee]

I suspect the reality if the sevens folds is no third team and no sevens team!

We would all like a third team, but it is just a pipe dream at the moment, not having a league to play in, being the first of many problems to overcome. I agree that the only hope for a place is for the Italians to drop out, which is not beyond the realms of possibility, particularly if they do not improve their standards over the next few seasons, but it is certainly not on any agenda at the moment.

Then we just have the minor details of funding it, finding somewhere for it to play and getting some people to support it.Easy really!

[RDW]

Baws - Scarlets kick a late penalty to win away to Zebre.

Connacht lose at home but get a bp.

[GLove39]

Right the information I'm about to impart may test the swear filter to it's limits! But here goes...

During the Melrose 7s today, there was some chat about the national side. And Scott Hastings revealed that before the plate match against New Zealand, Scott Johnston went into the changing room and dropped the funding bomb on the players!
I'm imagining it went something like this, "G'day my possums, best of luck with match, ohhh and just wanted to say that all bar 1 of you will soon been out of contract. Toodle pip".

[IanBru]

I was genuinely shocked when I heard John Beattie say that about Rab C, and he has definitely shifted in my estimation from village idiot to High Priest of all B*stardom (a position formerly held jointly by Kelvin McKenzie and the IT guy at my last job).

Assuming Beattie is right, it was at least refreshing to see the elder statesmen of the Scottish game (Beattie and Hastings Jr) being so open in their criticism of the system under Rab C.

The only way for me to calm down was to listen to John Coltrane's 'Live at the Village Vanguard' on a continuous loop.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Bru - missed you on Friday night - did you make the Scout Hut ?

[jimbopip]

RDW, I try to watch the Luvvies. I really do. But after the rich fare they serve up at Scotstoun...

Tonks will be in the mix but that's a mix that looks like having Frodo as first choice scrum half FFS.

I was at Twickenham watching both Scott (12) and Tonks fail to stand in for Alex Dunbar. We would have been better served , defensively, having Richie V in the first 40 as he would at least have tackled Joseph once in a while. Hornee in the second 40  would have been able to get us out of our half of the pitch. Actually with the service Frodo the Ponderous was giving the love child of Barry John and Stephen Larkham would have struggled to get us moving.

Oh my poor unloved eastern brethren, I just finished watching the Luvvies make Munster seconds look good. They were there for the taking but a complete lack of creativity/ penetration from 10 back let them off the hook.

After the breathtaking display from Hornee Furra Linee on Friday night Tonks will now be secondthird choice utility back behind Horne and Richie V. Fifth choice 10 behind Dancer, Meatball, Rhuaridh (even on one leg) and Horne. He's only fifth choice because Richie V hasn't shown us how brilliant he is at 10, yet.

p.s. Grayson Perry: might take us a couple of seasons to make him world class but Toonie loves a challenge.

[TJ]

Jimbo - something funny in the water over on the west? Or is it the buckie talking?

[RDW]

Obviously weren't watching too closely because Tonks was playing 15 with Cuthbert still injured!

I'm not sure you could class that as Munster 2nds either but lets not have facts getting in the way...

[jimbopip]

RDW, yes I am cogniscant of the fact that Heathcoat was at 10 and Tonks at 15 but....
The Luvvies pack were really strong and were pushing Munster back in the early stages, the backs were given plenty of ball and then... Well nothing actually, other than constantly kicking away possession.
All that happened then was that Munster grew in confidence once they realised that the Luvvies backs were intent on proving the old proverb about their inability to score in Brotheltown with a £50 note tied to their manly parts.
While I appreciate that Tonks was covering for Cuthbert at 15 you still have a coach deciding that on balance the team is better with Heathcoat at 10. My definition of a really good player is, partly, that you want to keep him in his position because what you lose by bringing in the next best is more than you gain by moving him. Obviously Hornee and Richie V are exempt from this on the grounds of (a) hat-tricks (b) being world class and (c) the Tombola is never wrong.

[RDW]

Solomons obviously thinks the drop off between heathcoat and Tonks at 10 is less than Tonks and Brown at 15 - rightly or wrongly.

I really like Horne but we've been here many times before with him - playing really well at club level but that doesn't transfer to international level with the reduced space and better defences that come with it.

So there really isn't much in it, and both have their flaws, but I'd be happy with either being included in the squad.

[jimbopip]

Agreed on Solomons' decision making, but in attacking terms that performance was dire. You had the Munster scrum under all sorts of pressure and lots of possession but the lack of imagination and ambition behind the scrum was criminal.
You watch them more closely than I can bring myself to... was that the best they can do? Or are they simply following orders?

[RDW]

Completely agree - last night we went back to the bad old days from the start of the season when our only tactic seemed to be aimless kicking.

There were two main reasons for it - Strauss playing and HidalgoClyne not. Strauss is a creativity black hole, and Hidalgo-Clyne is the absolute heartbeat of the team. As such there was no zip in our attack play. The Munster defence was ferocious too.

Heathcoat is a conservative player at 10 too.

[TJ]

Edinburgh have played much better than that this season. I think the unstoppable Munster lineout and maul just took the wind out of the sails of the edinburgh players. I think they remain a bit soft / brittle mentally. Injures in key places did not help at all as well

In the first half Edinburgh did do some decent stuff in the backs but it was not a day for running rugby. Wet and cold.

I hate POC. the bugger has such skills and leadership. He should be made to play with his bootlaces tied together.

[BigGee]

Well Dragons just beat Leinster, who only got a point. Surely that is them out of the play offs now!

As I said earlier Dragons going to be no push over for Edinburgh next weekend.

[jimbopip]

Yes Gee. Ladyboys can only each 68 points now. So three losing bonus points puts Glasgow in the play offs.
Personally I want Ulster to finish third or fourth. A home semi and then final would make tm almost impossible to beat.

Also, do the weekends results mean Bru will be eligible to join the Vienna Boys' Choir?

[RDW]

Absolutely - let's hope it took too much out of them with a 5 day turnaround!

[RDW]

Always worth noting they're only 6 points behind us now too - there's no guarantee we'll even finish 7th!

[BigGee]

The Dragons look like they have come a long way from the shambles of the past couple of season. Be very careful Edinburgh!

[GLove39]

Caught the second half from the Dragons. Very impressive from the men of Gwent. Coming back from 14 points down and scoring some cracking tries too.
Are they now favourites for Friday?

[TJ]

One thing with Edinburgh - what I feared has come to pass. Playing in the micky mouse cup has distracted them from the league and they will now not finish in the euro cup positions. Edinburgh do not have the playing resources to play on two fronts. should have played a second team in the micky mouse cup

[IanBru]

Bru - missed you on Friday night - did you make the Scout Hut ?

Sorry chief, I didn't get there. Arrived about 30 seconds before kickoff, then went for drinks with my cousin in the city centre. I'll definitely be there for the Ulster match - planning on making a day of it in Glasgow.

Also, do the weekends results mean Bru will be eligible to join the Vienna Boys' Choir?

Jim, you're assuming that my pitch-perfect tone and skill with sight-reading hasn't qualified me already?

In all seriousness, Eastern cousins, if you could sort your chaps into something half-way resembling a rugby team, I'd be ever so grateful. I can just picture Jimbo, Schitz and Chris Fusaro turning up at my door in Jesmond with a bottle of medicinal brandy and some gelding shears.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Good man Bru - see you on Sat 16 dude. May be a belter but then they all are now.

As for the above and all things MFL, that was a feeble effort (to quote the BBC) yesterday by The Luvvies. Truly pathetic. 10-15 were all rank rotten. Felt sorry for the forwards tbh and the SH to a degree. Clearly a team with no heart and no ambition whatsoever.

[funnyExiledScot]

If only heart and ambition were all that were lacking. Skill, structure and stamina also had 40 minutes off. We need to bounce back by beating the Dragons and taking 5 points off Zebre.

Hopefully those Word Class soap dodgers with Peter Horne (the new Tim Horan??) pulling the strings can beat Connacht for us.

[cp10]

That was a bit of a regression. Back to last seasons performance. Paid the price for having a lack of ball carriers in the forwards. Grants not going to make yards as a 6 and when Denton went off they were always going to struggle. It wasn't until McInally came on that we had a carrier but by that time any momentum (read Townsend's article) was gone.

Backs will always look poor if given back foot ball off the forwards. The old rugby cliché - forwards win matches backs by home much.

[jimbopip]

Glasgow now need one win to guarantee a play off. Three wins will see us with a home tie.
However, Connacht away will not be easy. They are probably the most improved side in the league and any win there will be hard earned.
Similarly, Ospreys away will be very tough. They can still get a home semi so will be going flat out I should imagine.
Which brings us to the last match: against Ulster.
I'm hoping we are ten points better off by then and the Red Hand Gang are unable to overtake us at the top. A nice easy afternoon to round off the season, thank you very much.However, we could just as easily be no points better off and desperately needing 5 points to avoid a Ravenhill semi. That would be a real test of character as a defeat would make it very difficult to make the final.
Let's hope Toonie puts out his best 15 against Connacht and then we all sleep just a little bit easier.

p.s. Bru, Schiz I think I'll pass on the Ulster game in the hope that I'm saving my pennies for the home semi.

[RDW]

Someone on the 606 Facebook page is saying Hogg is off to Leicester - surely that is complete Love sacks given he's contracted to 2017?

[jimbopip]

RDW, that is just not funny. Stop it. Just stop it.

[RDW]

Looking into it he seems to be putting 2+2 together and making 37.


In other news - just seen that Matt Scott is out for the rest of the season having undergone shoulder surgery.

How many games has he managed this season?

He'sbecoming the new Simon Taylor unfortunately.

[EWT Spoons]

Was it not his shoulder he was out for previously?

[RDW]

Yep.

No announcement from Edinburgh but RBS Scottish rugby have posted it.

[EWT Spoons]

brilliant.

If he's out for the rest of the season, he's probably going to be a doubt for the WC.

[jimbopip]

So no Dunbar and no Matt Scott (12).
Let's hope Toonie gives lots of game time to Richie V and Sandy Lyle over the next 3-5 games.
Mind you , playing outside Frodo the Ponderous it wont make much difference.

[RDW]

Doesn't matter - we've got world class triple H (hatrick-hero-Horne) to fill in!

[jimbopip]

Ah, you are beginning to see the light.
So 9. Henners
10. Dancer
12 Hornee Furra
13.
14. Tennessee Tam
15. Hogg
You are right we might have a decent three quarters line for the world cup yet.

[RDW]

That midfield lining up against the South African and Samonan beasts would come with an 18 rated certificate.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Ah, you are beginning to see the light.
So  9. Henners
    10. Dancer
    12 Hornee Furra
    13.
    14. Tennessee Tam
    15. Hogg
You are right we might have a decent three quarters line for the world cup yet.

Matt Scott and Visser tackle like Schalk Burger in comparison to Horne.

Not exactly the most physical defensive line up.

[RDW]

Matt Scott injury confirmed:

Following an injury to his left shoulder, sustained during the final game of the RBS 6 Nations, centre Matt Scott underwent surgery last week.

It had been hoped that Matt would be able to manage his injury conservatively but following consultation with specialists at Spire Murrayfield the decision to perform an investigative arthroscopy was taken. This resulted in him requiring a further surgical procedure to help deal with his shoulder complaints.

Matt will now continue with his rehabilitation programme with the Edinburgh Rugby medical team and will be unavailable to play for Edinburgh for the rest of the season.

Everyone at the club wishes Matt all the best with his recovery.

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