Whither England?

First topic message reminder :

This topic is for comments on where England go from here for the rest of the six Nations (and even beyond). I appreciate there are existing topics on an autopsy of the Dublin match, what should have to Lancaster, and also a player's rating for the match, but this is more looking at what happens next from an England team perspective. Please comment if you wish

GunsGerms wrote:England weren't effective as they usually are at the breakdown because Ireland didnt play to their strengths.

By box kicking a lot the breakdown points tended to be far apart the the England pack had to cover more ground often going backwards. The back three in particular are all big lumps and struggled to make up the extra ground. Robshaw in particular seemed to arrive late to a few key rucks. The Irish back row and front row are much more dynamic and cover the ground easier IMO.

That's s really good observation Guns, and some great tactical planning by Schmit. I have to admit that I was expecting England to own the breakdown when I saw the squad announced because I thought the Irish back row was underpowered and undersized. I was so wrong. England's back row and locks looked tired from covering all that ground.

It really wasn't a very surprising tactic or outcome, particularly given the absence of Lawes, Launchbury and Wood.  The signs were clear in the Wales and Italy games.

After Wales

hawalsh wrote:we were exposed far too many times by the lack of speed and numbers, which seemed to be lack of pace from our pack or too many hanging back for the next phase.  That may not be too bad a problem against a number of sides in the championship but if it continues will be manna for Ireland in Dublin with their SH like speed and precision over the tackled player.  Players will have to get round the park even more in that game

After Italy

hawalsh wrote:I was really disappointed with the forward effort in terms of workrate and effectiveness

Against Ireland's defence and speed & precision at the breakdown the squad will really have to up their intensity and determination to run themselves into the ground supporting every aspect of play if they're to stand a chance

For both the breakdown and the lineout it's a shame that Lawes' & Wood's availability is a few weeks late to maybe have made some sort of difference in Dublin.  Should we see changes in reaction to the last game that timing will seem even more unfortunate in that the Scotland game is one where I'd actually back our lumpier back 5 to be more effective.

kingelderfield wrote:I could live with 36, however messed around/up he is by form and selection - I would like to see Eastmond given a go for 2 reasons;

it gives us the opportunity to see if the Bath backline; Ford, Eastmond & Joseph can do it together at international level (combinations etc.) and,

with respect its against Scotland at Twickenham which is a better opportunity than Ireland in Dublin

Hard lines Brad Barritt.

Time to give Eastmond his head me thinks?

Would be an opportunity to get Slade on the bench whoever of Twelvetrees or Eastmond starts.

England will be stronger for the loss. They've actually benefitted from it and I'm glad for the loss. Ireland on the other hand will know they were lucky and not have any where to go.

If losses were wins sometimes, then this was one.

Looks like Croft is injured which makes Woods return to the 23 a given even if he doesnt make the 15

TheRugbyMaster wrote:England will be stronger for the loss. They've actually benefitted from it and I'm glad for the loss. Ireland on the other hand will know they were lucky and not have any where to go.

If losses were wins sometimes, then this was one.

Ireland were not lucky. Not in the least. They might not be able to repeat that level of performance too often, and despite what they have said they haven't shown an extra gear, yet. But they are very tough opposition.

What was Barretts injury?

yappysnap wrote:What was Barretts injury?

medial ligament they said

Whither England?

Can yis get any whither? Don't be such perfectionists. The bluely whithe maybe looks good when you come out first but it never lasts. Don't be getting hung up on the colour - it's the game that needs attention!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would be an opportunity to get Slade on the bench whoever of Twelvetrees or Eastmond starts.

I don't think Lancaster et al have the nous or plums to make such a call - but I back the ambition of your call

kingelderfield wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would be an opportunity to get Slade on the bench whoever of Twelvetrees or Eastmond starts.

I don't think Lancaster et al have the nous or plums to make such a call - but I back the ambition of your call

Wow, I'm truely amazed.

Sorry for Barrett but it would be interesting to try either Eastmond with Ford and Joseph or give Slade a chance.

I rather imagine Lancaster will circle the wagons, and we will see Twelvetrees.  I would prefer to see England be a bit ambitious.

On the topic of Goode, who is likely to be replaced, I feel maybe fullback is not his best position.  He is a very good footballer (slightly short of pace) who has been put at fullback by Saracens.

TheRugbyMaster wrote:England will be stronger for the loss. They've actually benefitted from it and I'm glad for the loss. Ireland on the other hand will know they were lucky and not have any where to go.

If losses were wins sometimes, then this was one.

Hahahahaha. This is a funny post. If ever a game had nothing to do with luck than this was one.

Is Burrell out for this game then? If not, I don't really see why we'd drop him?

BamBam wrote:Is Burrell out for this game then? If not, I don't really see why we'd drop him?

I think there is some doubt over a hamstring. He hasn't exactly replicated his form of a year ago so we might be seeing a change regardless

Thomas is also injured, so tighthead cover will be Wilson Brookes PDJ Scott Wilson Collier Mercey .....umm are there any fit England tightheads playing in the Premiership aside from Cole?

Gooseberry wrote:Thomas is also injured, so tighthead cover will be Wilson Brookes PDJ Scott Wilson Collier  Mercey .....umm are there any fit England tightheads playing in the Premiership aside from Cole?

Balmain?

What about Francis of Exeter - is he a tight head.

cb wrote:What about Francis of Exeter - is he a tight head.

That'll upset the Welsh

Reading the Sunday Times yesterday (and yes I am aware that Stephen Jones is a major WUM) they commented on when was the last time an England selection made you excited? Scotland at home is a good time to do just that. Slade in for Burrell and Wade for Watson. I think it would be worth seeing.

lostinwales wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Thomas is also injured, so tighthead cover will be Wilson Brookes PDJ Scott Wilson Collier  Mercey .....umm are there any fit England tightheads playing in the Premiership aside from Cole?

Balmain?

Cooper-Wooly or whatever his name is hasnt been playing either (injured?), so as ridiculous a suggestion as Balmain sounds they might now have a choice other than to ruin Tigers completely

Harlequins Kyle Sinckler would be fun to watch, before he gets carded.

I think it was just a 1 week ban?

Tighthead. According to the Beeb Francis is training with Wales. So we are potentially down to a very short list for the subs bench.

Funny to think of the players who, under Johnson, looked like they would be part of our experienced core at the 2015 World Cup, but who may not feature now.

Croft and Foden might be crocked and/or unable to get games to show their stuff before the Cup. Delon Armitage took himself off to France, while Ashton is on the fringe. Those four alone have around 140 caps between them - more if you add in Croft's Lions appearances. Flood is in France but might have found himself in Ashton's position anyway. Still, that's another 60 caps.

Australia, of course, are doing without Giteau's 90-odd caps - and did so at the last tournament - so its not unique to England. I do wonder, though, whether our form World Cup squad is going to look even lighter on overall experience than we might have expected a few years back. I also wonder whether that concerns our coaches.

lostinwales wrote:Tighthead. According to the Beeb Francis is training with Wales. So we are potentially down to a very short list for the subs bench.

Oh we have to pick Francis, just for comedy value! Can we start an online petition? They have just about got over Morgan now but that would be a corker.

I think Barritt out is a blow.

None of the 12s have looked remotely interesting this 6n and id far rather have Barritts defensive leader, power game and consistency.

We always have PDJ at TH?

I think Scotland will beat us on the weekend.

Really? I can't see Scotland getting to within 10 personally. I also don't see Barritt as a hude loss. He's about as good as Twlevetrees and Eastmond but specialises in defence and it won't be that much needed this weekend. He wouldn't have changed the result of Ireland either.

It's Barritt that is injured, Barrett plays for NZ.

Against Ireland Barritt would have been hugely useful. That's hindsight for you though.

Scotland really shouldn't be so tough for our forwards, so with more front foot ball Brad is the last 12 we want in there, all he is is a glorified flanker.

I'd prefer 36, he's pleated well when he comes off the bench, I think Ford and Joseph really compliment him as they're similar to his preferred club mates in those positions. He can then relax a little and just hold that axis together.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/sixnations/11460919/Billy-Twelvetrees-the-most-frustrating-player-in-England.html

A good article, and sums up how I think a lot of England fans feel about 36. 

Shame for Barritt, but I'm, not sure how big a blow it is to be missing him. He definitely would have been an upgrade on Burrell against Ireland, but I'm excited by the prospect of Slade being in camp for Scotland preparation.