AP Round 17

First topic message reminder :

Apologies for delay.

Points Situation

60 Northampton
48 Saracens, Exeter, Wasps
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47 Bath, Leicester
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43 Sale
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35 Gloucester, Harlequins
28 London Irish
24 Newcastle
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1 London Welsh



Fixtures

Fri 6th Mar 15

19:45 BATH RUGBY  v   SALE SHARKS Recreation Ground BT Sport

Bath have failed to win a match since the 6Ns started, and have won just one of their five AP matches in 2015. This bad run of form has led them to drop from a safe 2nd in the table to outside the top 4. While they have perhaps the easiest run in of any of the sides pushing for the play-offs, they need to start winning soon. Would they wish to face Sale, who beat them at the Rec last season? Perhaps not. Sale are at full strength, while Bath have real issues with Ford away. Homer has to start kicking his goals and DeVoto has to give Eastmond time and space. while I look forward to the first collision between Burgess and Leota, it is the back row match up that really interests me. Bath have recalled Garvey and moved Fearns to no8 creating a massive back row. Sale however have countered by recalling Seymour for Beaumont and effectively fielding 3 guys comfortable at openside. Bath should win, Sale with Cipriani looking to impress will not lie down.


Sat 7th Mar 15

15:00 EXETER CHIEFS  v   LONDON WELSH Sandy Park
Chiefs to move back to second in the table.

15:00 HARLEQUINS  v   LONDON IRISH Twickenham Stoop
Irish will really fancy this match. Quins, like bath, have yet to win during the 6Ns. they created plenty of chances last week against Saints but failed to score the points they should and were outmuscled by the table toppers. London Irish have struggled up front at times and certainly in the games against my team lacked fluency behind the scrum. However they do, like Quins, look to play at a high temp and if the conditions are good we may have a free-flowing game with lots of breaks and lots of errors.


15:15 GLOUCESTER RUGBY  v   NORTHAMPTON SAINTS Kingsholm BT Sport Preview
Saints have not been playing well, but have been grinding out wins. Glaws coudl expect to see Hibbard and Laidlaw available and will provide a threat. With Lawes, Corbs and Wood all looking to show form and fitness I just expect Saints to power through this.



Sun 8th Mar 15

14:00 WASPS  v   SARACENS Ricoh Arena BT Sport
Shoudl be fascinating. Simplistically this can be viewed as Wasps attack against Saracens defence. Saracens have not been in great form, and have lost a lot of games away from home. To win this they need to deny Wasps any space and force them, into pushing things from behind the gainline. The tackling of the back row will be crucial as they look to stem Hughes and Johnson. Wasps could have the edge at scrum time, which will make Sarries job even harder, but Sarries need to make this a physical armwrestle. Both teams are proficient at the driving maul, so defensive tactics at line-out time could be intriguing.


15:00 NEWCASTLE FALCONS  v   LEICESTER TIGERS Kingston Park
This is the easiest of Tiger's three remaining away fixtures and one they simply have to win. Falcons are much improved from the team we saw at Welford Road and are now scoring tries against the best defences. I woudl certainly not put Tigers up as among the best defence - yet strangely no team has conceded less tries than them. Scoring tries has been a real issue in theg League, so for me it has been heartening to hear Falcons fans bemoaning their defence. Can Falcons pack provide sufficient platform for their exciting backs to prosper?

Bell

Typical bloody Falcons! Tigers defence has been strong, another gsme I'm gutted to lose!

GeordieFalcon wrote:We've given this away.

Lucky lucky tigers.

you make your own luck!

TMO on another potential Leicester Try

That is probably a try, but cameras will not confirm I reckon

No try given.

Scrum Leicester

Sgt ....another game we SHOULD NOT HAVE LOST.
Story of the season.

Nathan, yes you do....we should have been out of sight by half time. That's our problem this season.

I'm not watching the game so can't answer this but is that due to errors from the falcons or the tigers defence?

Leicester win and go up to 5th

Falcons will have to look atthe 3rd 1/4 where they dominated but failed to score.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sgt ....another game we SHOULD NOT HAVE LOST.
Story of the season.

Nathan, yes you do....we should have been out of sight by half time. That's our problem this season.

But for our errors we could have had some tries in the first half, so out of sight is an exagerration. The problem was the 20 minutes after half time when you dominated us and failed to score.

Tigers scrum has been poor since the new boys came on.

Our set piece has struggled but we've played some lovely attacking rugby. Again we've left too many points out there but a good performance.

Well done Tigers but I doubt you'll be troubling the top sides this year, this is not a great Leicester side by any means.

Nathan,

OUr inability to finish all the chances we created. Its been a constant this season.
For all our backline is a country mile ahead of where it was...we aren't taking advantage by actually scoring.

Also our scrum is poor. We are competing with every team with a scrum that's going backwards. Once we get that fixed in the summer...we'll be a different proposition.

Absolutely gutted to have lost that game!

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sgt ....another game we SHOULD NOT HAVE LOST.
Story of the season.

Nathan, yes you do....we should have been out of sight by half time. That's our problem this season.

But for our errors we could have had some tries in the first half, so out of sight is an exagerration. The problem was the 20 minutes after half time when you dominated us and failed to score.

I can't really recall you threatening in the 1st LT, we should have been 15pts up. Youre right though, pressure not turned into points means little, we need to finish off games, it's been out major issue all season.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Tigers scrum has been poor since the new boys came on.

Our set piece has struggled but we've played some lovely attacking rugby. Again we've left too many points out there but a good performance.

Well done Tigers but I doubt you'll be troubling the top sides this year, this is not a great Leicester side by any means.

and yet we're still up there with the top sides...

nathan wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Tigers scrum has been poor since the new boys came on.

Our set piece has struggled but we've played some lovely attacking rugby. Again we've left too many points out there but a good performance.

Well done Tigers but I doubt you'll be troubling the top sides this year, this is not a great Leicester side by any means.

and yet we're still up there with the top sides...

Yea you've certainly fought you're way up the table. I just think Bath, Saints are well ahead of you at the minute.

Agree not a vintage Tigers team this season. Im just gutted we lost that game....yet again.

We must get that sorted for next season.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

nathan wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Tigers scrum has been poor since the new boys came on.

Our set piece has struggled but we've played some lovely attacking rugby. Again we've left too many points out there but a good performance.

Well done Tigers but I doubt you'll be troubling the top sides this year, this is not a great Leicester side by any means.

and yet we're still up there with the top sides...

Yea you've certainly fought you're way up the table. I just think Bath, Saints are well ahead of you at the minute.

Bath yes, Saints at the moment, no.

I fear a real pummelling in our next away game.

Hope we do the double over Chiefs before then.


As to Falcons, made real progress this season. No Fury or Godawful has helped the backs and their work at the breakdown is excellent. Set-piece still a disaster though. Scrums were not the feature I would have hoped for, but Falcon's lost a sizeable number of big line-outs.

Happy to agree to disagree Nathan.

Well TBh our record against the 5 sides around us is around 50/50

Lost to saints away, Bath away
Beaten Exeter away, Wasps home, Bath home
Drawn to sarries (Home)

If we can get Youngs, Cole and potentially Manu, Allen and Slater we stand a good chance.

formerly known as Sam wrote:What happened to Noakes Ozzy?  He was supposed to be adding the tactical play to compliment Geraghty's attacking skills. He seems to have vanished and Goode is being brought in instead.

Noakes picked up an injury and has struggled to get back into the side since. I get the impression that Delaney isn't keen on him, having said that, Shane has done ok at 10 since the turn of the year. Goode will be a good signing on a 1 year deal. I would go as far as saying that had he been at 10 for us yesterday we would have won the game.

Well Oz he started well for Wasps today but couldn't help turn it around when Sarries turned it on.

Not seen the Tigers game but I'll take an away win in whatever form given the players we are missing. Sgt the replacement props never do quite as well for Tigers mainly because Rizzo is no Ayerza. There's a huge difference when Marcos is on the pitch this year. There's no better loose head at the moment.

Rugby Fan wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Two great tries by Wasps.

Just about to write the same. Wonderful to watch.

Ok, Wasps were naive, and knackered, shorn of a number of their squad through injury etc.(and Andy Goode is a fat lazy unfit couldn't catch a cold had a tough day at the office sort of thing), but it has to be said, regardless of how admirably drilled and 'professional' Saracens are/were, they play a really awful game of rugby.

Steve Hansen was heard to say somthing like the game of rugby is becoming boring, I wonder if he's ever watch Saracens?

Their strap line was always 'there's somthing special happening at Saracens', well maybe there was, but today whatever it was took a right good kicking!

Sarries are pragmatic and missing several of their more adventurous players. They did score some tries they just played in the right areas and got that suffocating defence of theirs going in the second half.

There was a certain symmetry about the Gloucester-Saints and Wasps-Saracens games. Both Gloucester and Wasps scored two bright early tries. TV then interviewed the coaches who were delighted, but stressed it was still early on in the game. Sure enough, Saints and Saracens both came back, with Saracens doing enough to get the win.

Gloucester and Wasps didn't have unassailable leads but both should have been smarter about the way they played once they got them. Wasps were particularly poor in conceding three points while they had a one man advantage for ten minutes during the second half.

You just knew Sarries would come back into it and you knew how, scrum and maul penalties. And bingo that's how they did it.

Depressing to watch for the neutral but I'm sure they're happy.

Stats from the Falcons/Tigers game interesting. Possession obviously wrong as it gives Falcons 100% in first half and tigers 100% in second.

http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/232105.html


Shows that both teams ran a long way, made a lot of clean breaks and beat a lot of defenders, but turned over the ball a hell of a lot.

LondonTiger wrote:Stats from the Falcons/Tigers game interesting. Possession obviously wrong as it gives Falcons 100% in first half and tigers 100% in second.

http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/232105.html


Shows that both teams ran a long way, made a lot of clean breaks and beat a lot of defenders, but turned over the ball a hell of a lot.

Reading those stats and without watching the game, it doesn't sound like Tigers were completely outplayed as mentioned previously

nathan wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Stats from the Falcons/Tigers game interesting. Possession obviously wrong as it gives Falcons 100% in first half and tigers 100% in second.

http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/232105.html


Shows that both teams ran a long way, made a lot of clean breaks and beat a lot of defenders, but turned over the ball a hell of a lot.

Reading those stats and without watching the game, it doesn't sound like Tigers were completely outplayed as mentioned previously

All in the eye of the beholder.

I thought we created as much in the first half as they did, but coughed the ball up in their 22 far too often. One attack broke down 5m from their line, Catterick hacked clear and they eventually ended up with a lineout 5m from our line.

First 20 minutes of the second half we were completely under the cosh - but Falcons failed to score when they should have done. Sinotti for all his good running butchered a couple of chances by gosawful support running, especially following a Catterick break. Felt we dominated the last 20 minutes.

Falcons could easily have won the game, and would not have been undeserved. Equally with more precision we could have won by more than we did.

Stats assist but you can't beat watching a game.

Our scrum was mullered for 50/60mins yet it looks pretty even there. I'd also say we had more try scoring oppertunities but yet again we failed to finish these off.

Our tackling in the 2nd half was poor in midfield I thought .

Close game either way, not too much between the sides.

Sounds like a lot of teams are struggling to turn possession into points this season.

Nearly all the teams directly below the top four seem to spend a lot of time with the ball but don't do enough with it. I guess it's partly down to how good the top sides are but even against the weaker teams tries are getting scarce.

Have attacks gone backwards this season compared to last or am I just looking back with rose tinted glasses?

Our attack is 100000% better than last season Yapp

True but then that isn't too tough is it...

... Just changing your 10 probably made it 9999% improved

We make far too many mistakes when we have the ball. Look good running it until we are ijn the opposition 22 wwhen we seem to revert to boshing it. On Sunday we were turned over 11 times in the Falcons 22, usually due to either knock on in contact or running away from the support and penalised for holding on.

I have seen similar from Quins. I think it is that opposition defences tighten up when close to their line and attacks panic.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Stats assist but you can't beat watching a game.

Our scrum was mullered for 50/60mins yet it looks pretty even there. I'd also say we had more try scoring oppertunities but yet again we failed to finish these off.

Our tackling in the 2nd half was poor in midfield I thought .

Close game either way, not too much between the sides.

Apart from 6 league positions....

Although I would agree that Saints are a class above the rest this year and are almost certainly out of sight, but the likes of Bath, whilst playing nice rugby on the face of it aren't exactly head and shoulders above Tigers. So.... this mediocre/far from vintage Tigers side, that have struggled with over 20 injuries to the squad at times and international call ups are still 5th and just 2 points off second place in the league...

Jimpy wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Stats assist but you can't beat watching a game.

Our scrum was mullered for 50/60mins yet it looks pretty even there. I'd also say we had more try scoring oppertunities but yet again we failed to finish these off.

Our tackling in the 2nd half was poor in midfield I thought .

Close game either way, not too much between the sides.

Apart from 6 league positions....

Although I would agree that Saints are a class above the rest this year and are almost certainly out of sight, but the likes of Bath, whilst playing nice rugby on the face of it aren't exactly head and shoulders above Tigers. So.... this mediocre/far from vintage Tigers side, that have struggled with over 20 injuries to the squad at times and international call ups are still 5th and just 2 points off second place in the league...

I fail to see what league position has to do when evaluating a game. For much of the game you'd have been hard pushed to pick the higher placed team. If anything Falcons played with more freedom and played the better attacking rugby.

As I said, they was little between the sides.

All teams get injuries, suck it up, that's not an excuse.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Stats assist but you can't beat watching a game.

Our scrum was mullered for 50/60mins yet it looks pretty even there. I'd also say we had more try scoring oppertunities but yet again we failed to finish these off.

Our tackling in the 2nd half was poor in midfield I thought .

Close game either way, not too much between the sides.

Apart from 6 league positions....

Although I would agree that Saints are a class above the rest this year and are almost certainly out of sight, but the likes of Bath, whilst playing nice rugby on the face of it aren't exactly head and shoulders above Tigers. So.... this mediocre/far from vintage Tigers side, that have struggled with over 20 injuries to the squad at times and international call ups are still 5th and just 2 points off second place in the league...

I fail to see what league position has to do when evaluating a game. For much of the game you'd have been hard pushed to pick the higher placed team. If anything Falcons played with more freedom and played the better attacking rugby.

As I said, they was little between the sides.

All teams get injuries, suck it up, that's not an excuse.

So what's Falcons' excuse for being garbage then?

I'm not making excuses either, I'm saying that DESPITE all the injuries and call ups, Tigers are only 2 points off 2nd place (so Bath clearly aren't that far ahead are they?) and 6 places above Falcons who apparently, are scoring more tries than their opposition but losing. Tigers, by the way, are averaging 1.8 tries a match, which is woeful. Yet, here we are.... and an LV cup semi-final next week too.

I'm glad all Tigers fans aren't like you......

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm glad all Tigers fans aren't like you......

PMSL....

How does it go? 'Suck it up'?

Yawn.......

There really is something to be said for winning gracefully.

Margin_Walker wrote:There really is something to be said for winning gracefully.

As a London Irish fan, you don't realise how hard that is to do.

Pah, I remember when we used to win games.

Just...

Welly wrote:

Margin_Walker wrote:There really is something to be said for winning gracefully.

As a London Irish fan, you don't realise how hard that is to do.

Fear not, there's talk of ring fencing the league, I'm sure it will happen sooner or later. The likes of LI and Falcons need no longer look over their shoulders...

Sgt Pooly unfortunately it's the wins that are counted whether allegedly deserved or not

You can make 20 breaks, beat 50 defenders but if you don't score the 5 points, 2 pointers and 3 pointers you'll lose the game obviously!

Some sides are quite clearly more naive and less streetwise.

Don't need to be a rocket scientist to know who the streetwise teams are and who the more naive ones are. Just take a look at the AP table!

Newcastle are still in the rebuilding stage I guess - London Welsh have given them this development season but more will be expected from you next season.

Every side has their injuries and absentees. Some just deal with them better than others and some shout about it more than others.

I'm certainly not complaining about the result Beshocked, we played well but failed to convert our numerous chances.

Yea some do like to bleat more than others about injuries.

beshocked wrote:Sgt Pooly unfortunately it's the wins that are counted whether allegedly deserved or not

You can make 20 breaks, beat 50 defenders but if you don't score the 5 points, 2 pointers and 3 pointers you'll lose the game obviously!

Some sides are quite clearly more naive and less streetwise.

Don't need to be a rocket scientist to know who the streetwise teams are and who the more naive ones are. Just take a look at the AP table!

Newcastle are still in the rebuilding stage I guess - London Welsh have given them this development season but more will be expected from you next season.

Every side has their injuries and absentees. Some just deal with them better than others and some shout about it more than others.

Indeed, and some use those as excuses for underperforming. In the case of Leicester, who at one time this season had approximately 40% of their squad injured, one would hope that injuries could legitimately be used as a causal factor in poor performances. Bleating doesn't come into it. Bleating is when your DoR quite openly moans that his side are scoring more tries than the opposition, but still losing, and he can't quite work out why... Still.., in the context of this discussion, I'd stated that Tigers had done alright, despite having a load of injuries, despite international call-ups and despite 'playing rubbish' (the DoR's own words) for most of the season. That isn't bleating, that's a statement of fact. I'm actually surprised Tigers are where they are all things considered - and believe me, I'm not a Richard Cockerill apologist by any means. As you've rightly pointed out, the league doesn't lie, so while a match might be close in terms of a score line, the difference between two teams overall is plain to see.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm certainly not complaining about the result Beshocked, we played well but failed to convert our numerous chances.

Yea some do like to bleat more than others about injuries.

At times you really remind me of Jimpy. Both with very strident views and at times aggressive and dismissive of anyone who disagrees or rates a player you do not. (He does it more often admittedly)

Two teams created numerous chances in that game, but as with your strident views on the games you had with LI you seem to only seem to only acknowledge one team.

I would argue that Falcons played better in defence - turning us over 11 times in your own 22 - than in attack where you got close but then coughed the ball up.

I'm not sure how me suggesting Falcons had chances to score annoys you?

I've not mentioned Tigers or their performance at all in that sentence.