Nearly time to bring Slammin' Sam on.

First topic message reminder :

Sam Burgess has made great improvements in the handful of games he has played for Bath. Last Friday he was potentially MOM. Its time to get him in the England squad for training right now. His range of skills is huge. Particularly, his wide pass is amazing. I genuinely believe he has overtaken 12Ts and possibly Luther Burrell for the 12 shirt already. Come on Lancaster just do it.

The obsession with Burgess is because he is a big athlete. England4Glory has always seemed to have a fixation on big players over skilful players.

Blanko wrote:Robbie Henshaw and Jared Payne. Best midfield partnership in the the NH. As we will all see this weekend

That's true they've created Poopie loads of tries haven't they...

No they haven't... But they have played a big part in keeping Ireland firmly on track to break the all-time Six Nations record of best defensive effort (currently held by England 2003 - 46 points against). That must count for something, no?

You'll never win a World Cup if they only offer something in defense.

England made more breaks and beat more defenders than Ireland, so let's not over-credit your 12 and 13 when the real difference between the two sides was at 9 and 13

9 and 10

quinsforever wrote:You'll never win a World Cup if they only offer something in defense.

England made more breaks and beat more defenders than Ireland, so let's not over-credit your 12 and 13 when the real difference between the two sides was at 9 and 13

But we still won.. and our centres were physically dominant throughout..

Keep in mind I'm not even a fan of the Henshaw-Payne midfield.

Well, for me, the jury's still out on Payne... He is good...but is he good enough? Henshaw, however, has already proven his worth. I think he has been the player of the tournament so far, although Jonny is giving him a real good run for his money. Henshaw is tackling like a demon, carrying like a rhinoceros, and finishing sniper.. Wonderful player...

Henshaw is fantastic and I am a big fan, it is the combination itself and the fact he is a 13 playing at 12 that I do not like.

England made more breaks and beat more defenders than Ireland, so let's not over-credit your 12 and 13 when the real difference between the two sides was at 9 and 13[/quote]

I watched Ireland-England again yesterday and, in retrospect, I could not believe how much the English centres were forced to play on the back foot all throughout the match. Remember, Luther Burrell was talked up by many as 'the discovery of the tournament' last year, and Jonathan Joseph was similarly glorified this year. Well, they were both thoroughly outplayed and pushed backwards for pretty much the entire match. And to make matters worse for England, Billy Twelvetrees (coming on for JJ) produced what must have been the worst substitute appearance of any Northern Hemisphere rugby-player in a long time... He was shockingly bad... Now, how much of this was down to Henshaw/Payne I do not know, but the English centres certainly had a very bad day at the office...

I d agree the difference was the game management not the centres. Its always nice for an explosion of new talent but hold on before declaring Henshaw the 2nd coming.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Henshaw is fantastic and I am a big fan, it is the combination itself and the fact he is a 13 playing at 12 that I do not like.

I don't have too many problems with him playing at 12 myself, think that he has looked very good. Give him an expansive 13 (Earls?) and Ireland will have a very good midfield.

Payne is very good defensively and actually can be very attacking but is not showing it yet, down to Schmidt, down to the fact that he has played a lot more at 15 for Ulster than 13 or down to the unfamiliarity at International level between him and Henshaw?

Its working defensively right now but it still seems to be missing something to me.

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Henshaw is fantastic and I am a big fan, it is the combination itself and the fact he is a 13 playing at 12 that I do not like.

I don't have too many problems with him playing at 12 myself, think that he has looked very good. Give him an expansive 13 (Earls?) and Ireland will have a very good midfield.

Payne is very good defensively and actually can be very attacking but is not showing it yet, down to Schmidt, down to the fact that he has played a lot more at 15 for Ulster than 13 or down to the unfamiliarity at International level between him and Henshaw?

Its working defensively right now but it still seems to be missing something to me.

You are the real "Nachos"!!!!!

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Henshaw is fantastic and I am a big fan, it is the combination itself and the fact he is a 13 playing at 12 that I do not like.

I don't have too many problems with him playing at 12 myself, think that he has looked very good. Give him an expansive 13 (Earls?) and Ireland will have a very good midfield.

Payne is very good defensively and actually can be very attacking but is not showing it yet, down to Schmidt, down to the fact that he has played a lot more at 15 for Ulster than 13 or down to the unfamiliarity at International level between him and Henshaw?

Its working defensively right now but it still seems to be missing something to me.

I do agree with you on this. It's just Ireland don't have another centre right now who's ready to play The JS system.

Blanko wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Henshaw is fantastic and I am a big fan, it is the combination itself and the fact he is a 13 playing at 12 that I do not like.

I don't have too many problems with him playing at 12 myself, think that he has looked very good. Give him an expansive 13 (Earls?) and Ireland will have a very good midfield.

Payne is very good defensively and actually can be very attacking but is not showing it yet, down to Schmidt, down to the fact that he has played a lot more at 15 for Ulster than 13 or down to the unfamiliarity at International level between him and Henshaw?

Its working defensively right now but it still seems to be missing something to me.

I do agree with you on this. It's just Ireland don't have another centre right now who's ready to play The JS system.

I have been saying this since the start of the 6N but unfortunately have been miss-quoted from here to Tokyo. I still would much rather Earls come into the squad at the cost of Felix Jones as in Payne, Zebo and even Bowe, Ireland have enough cover at 15 should Kearney get injured. Personally I also feel that Kearney is not at his best.

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Henshaw is fantastic and I am a big fan, it is the combination itself and the fact he is a 13 playing at 12 that I do not like.

I don't have too many problems with him playing at 12 myself, think that he has looked very good. Give him an expansive 13 (Earls?) and Ireland will have a very good midfield.

Payne is very good defensively and actually can be very attacking but is not showing it yet, down to Schmidt, down to the fact that he has played a lot more at 15 for Ulster than 13 or down to the unfamiliarity at International level between him and Henshaw?

Its working defensively right now but it still seems to be missing something to me.

The reason you like him at 12 is because it opens the door for Earls at 13.

Henshaw is much more than a battering ram, which seems to be his role at 12. He is a very skilful runner and with more space at 13 or 15 where he usually plays, he would make a lot more line breaks and have more time to look at his options either side of him.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Henshaw is fantastic and I am a big fan, it is the combination itself and the fact he is a 13 playing at 12 that I do not like.

I don't have too many problems with him playing at 12 myself, think that he has looked very good. Give him an expansive 13 (Earls?) and Ireland will have a very good midfield.

Payne is very good defensively and actually can be very attacking but is not showing it yet, down to Schmidt, down to the fact that he has played a lot more at 15 for Ulster than 13 or down to the unfamiliarity at International level between him and Henshaw?

Its working defensively right now but it still seems to be missing something to me.

The reason you like him at 12 is because it opens the door for Earls at 13.

Henshaw is much more than a battering ram, which seems to be his role at 12. He is a very skilful runner and with more space at 13 or 15 where he usually plays, he would make a lot more line breaks and have more time to look at his options either side of him.

OK, slightly guilty as charged

I do think that he is very comfortable at 12 and with a more expansive game plan or player at 13, he would shine even more. If Olding was at 12 and Henshaw at 13, I would not complain either

He's not even close to being ready, I'm amazed anyone thinks otherwise. He's also never going to be the best 12. I'd rather he was tried at 6, but I'm not convinced he'll make it there either.

At the moment he can't ruck (fair enough, it takes time) and carries far too upright. He's not a player I can imagine making yards around the fringes, but he is a player I could imagine linking up with the backs well.

I have a worrying feeling he's just a bit too much in between positions and he'll end up going back to League.

Sorry hood but Burgess is already training with England. He is being closely watched. Why people won't accept that he is an exceptional rugby talent is beyond me.

englandglory4ever wrote:Sorry hood but Burgess is already training with England. He is being closely watched. Why people won't accept that he is an exceptional rugby talent is beyond me.

He might be, and because of that talent they are doing everything they can to help him on his way. But he isnt ready. As I said earlier, is there anything he can do at 12 that a fit Manu couldn't do at least as well.

I do think he might do a lot better at 6 or even 8, but not yet

englandglory4ever wrote:Sorry hood but Burgess is already training with England. He is being closely watched. Why people won't accept that he is an exceptional rugby talent is beyond me.

I think it might be a question of that he is "EX RUGBY LEAGUE" and the fact that England have had the shear of rugby league converts, only to be let down by them (not as good as people/ fans say he is.) I still think it is too early right now for him to come into the England set up.

there does seem to be a lot of ex-rugby-league bias i agree.

burgess would have absolutely thrived today. burrell was particularly guilty of not offloading or even looking

instructions to burgess in attack...pick a line, run striaght, run hard, time it, if you beat or half beat the defender, look for the offload as someone will be there

He aint shown it for his club though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He aint shown it for his club though.

You obviously didn't see his last game for Bath. Out of all the 7 games he's played that was his best by far. Much more involved and making a great contribution. Imagine how good he will be after playing say 14 games?

englandglory4ever wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He aint shown it for his club though.

You obviously didn't see his last game for Bath. Out of all the 7 games he's played that was his best by far. Much more involved and making a great contribution. Imagine how good he will be after playing say 14 games?

He might get to the level of being average.

I have seen nothing to indicate he can be a great Rugby player. I understand he was good at l**gue though.

Matty Johns on his monday night NRL show in Oz has just claimed that (to quote) "there are substantial rumours going around, believe me I hear they're more than just rumours, is that Sam Burgess is unhappy in rugby union'.

Have any of you guys heard that one?

His brother Luke is off to Manly (I think) and Manly have offloaded a couple of superstars so they will have money to burn. If Sam doesn't make inroads in rugby I'd not be surprised if he turned up in a Manly jumper.

He's said himself that he's found the move much tougher than he originally thought

Based on everything I've seen and heard about his character, I'd be surprised if he sacked it in after one season, but if he's still struggling next season I wouldn't be too shocked if he went back to league

ebop wrote:Matty Johns on his monday night NRL show in Oz has just claimed that (to quote) "there are substantial rumours going around, believe me I hear they're more than just rumours, is that Sam Burgess is unhappy in rugby union'.

He's been quite open about the fact he's finding it tougher than he expected, and his coach has said he finds a lot of the waiting around very frustrating. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say he wasn't enjoying himself but that's different to saying he's planning to throw in the towel.

If he's set himself a personal target of making the World Cup squad, then that probably won't happen, so it's whether he's prepared to put in more time to reach the top of the sport. There's an England summer tour to Australia next year, which he ought to be ready for, and then there's the Lions tour of NZ. He's not in the frame for that right now but could be by 2017, if he's still in the code.

Yeah I heard he was struggling a bit early on. Matty Johns was choosing his words very carefully. But it's in the news evidently, I didn't realise this. And the Rabbitohs have first dibs but would struggle to fit him under the cap. Manly wouldn't though.

http://m.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/nrl/manly-sea-eagles-consider-trying-to-tempt-sam-burgess-back-to-the-nrl/story-fnp0lyn3-1227262531136

burgess is too much of a fighter to give up on Union after 3 months. he's only 26. it would be a real humiliation for him and i dont believe he could handle that. he will give it a full year. Bath are guaranteed to reach the league playoffs, and have a shot at winning silverware in Europe. So Sam will have some big games in the next 2 months if he gets given gametime. if he doesnt get gametime i can understand he would be really frustrated.

of course the Aussie media and clubs would love to pry him loose, and back to NRL but i personally really dont think its going to happen until Sam sees where he is at the end of the 2016 season - MAy 2016.

that story is more about Manly than it is about Burgess.

Yeah that's right quins, the article was about Manly trying to lure Sam and had no quotes from Sam himself. But I guess Matty Johns in his live NRL show tonight (just finished now) laying it on thick that Sam 'really' isn't happy in rugby. Maybe it's just wishful thinking from Johns, who knows?

In the loose as a flanker for a game like Ireland Wales he wouldve been immense on defence or offence. The 31  tackles put in by that Welsh chap is what he  was expected to doi every game in league. His game is built on work rate and physicality, at 12  he doesnt get to do enough. 
The problem he has as a forward in union will be all the bread and butter stuff they do like set pieces and breakdown, whilst he  has the physical ability the brain and skills are much  harder to develop.
I cant see him making the wc  squad if folk are fit,

Gooseberry wrote:In the loose as a flanker for a game like Ireland Wales he wouldve been immense on defence or offence. The 31  tackles put in by that Welsh chap is what he  was expected to doi every game in league. His game is built on work rate and physicality, at 12  he doesnt get to do enough. 
The problem he has as a forward in union will be all the bread and butter stuff they do like set pieces and breakdown, whilst he  has the physical ability the brain and skills are much  harder to develop.
I cant see him making the wc  squad if folk are fit,

Totally agree. Think he saw himself as a backrow when coming across but underestimated the technical aspects of the set piece and breakdown maybe. Can't see that he'll ever enjoy it in midfield or get the best out of his attributes there.

Any one think he will start this week against France? .....I certainly hope he does'nt, i think it will be unfair to the rest of the team. and to players like Eastmond, Barrett.

Burgess is a backrow, he'll never make it as an International back.

majesticimperialman wrote:Any one think he will start this week against France? .....I certainly hope he does'nt, i think it will be unfair to the rest of the team. and to players like Eastmond, Barrett.

I don't think anyone on the planet thinks he'll start this weekend.

majesticimperialman wrote:Any one think he will start this week against France? .....I certainly hope he does'nt, i think it will be unfair to the rest of the team. and to players like Eastmond, Barrett.

Nope - no chance. The closest thing to a chance would be if Basteraud was a definite starter and they wanted someone to stop him, but Basteraud has rarely had that kind of impact at International level and anyway we have Billy to run him down

wonder where lancaster puts him in squad training? presumably with the backs.

burgess's switch to back row would only work if he was told not to both trying to turn the ball over, just focus on tackling hard, often and everywhere. the grey areas of the breakdown would be too much for Sam to get to grips with in his first year, so tackle, tackle, tackle and some carries and he'd be fine.

for england, that would mean we would need an orthodox fetcher if Burgess wasn't winning turnovers...

Burgess, Armitage, Morgan anyone?

never going to happen i know. but very scary on paper.

quinsforever wrote:wonder where lancaster puts him in squad training? presumably with the backs.

He was at 13 outside 10. Cipriani and 12. Slade in the training game last week apparently. Odd that they would put the centres that way round given that the first team are currently playing with their crash ball centre at 12. Perhaps they wanted to test Slade at 12.

I'd imagine we'll see him more at 6 next year. Would make a lot more sense.

I also wonder about him playing at 8 - its a very busy position and he is big enough

Problem with 8 is the control at the base and it's not a position we're weak in. I can't see him making an impact this season but he could make a destructive 6 next season.

I can see SL bringing in Armitage for the WC and going:

6. Armitage
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

None of our 6 options have overly impressed and Robshaw needs assistance at the breakdown.

I can see that happening but it needs Lawes and Launchbury in the second row for the added work rate, with the props needing to put a shift in too

I see the argument for Armitage as a breakdown specialist, but then are we back to the same old problem of lacking carrying ability? I can't say I've seen enough of him as a carrier recently to comment, but do remember him being pretty good at it back at Irish

Wood Robshaw Morgan written in stone if fit.

Armitage can carry well. It's more the lineout where we'd lose something.

The lineout would be ok with Robshaw, Lawes, Morgan, Launchbury.

Armitage is a strong carrier, certainly better than Wood/Haskell.

Sam's main strength is running on to the ball at speed and busting holes in the opposition line. To play him as a tackling back row player is a complete waste.
SL is absolutely right to put him in the centre.

His strengths are carrying and tackling.

There's no other option to play him in the centres as that's all he knows currently. He'll end up in the pack though, he just needs time.

englandglory4ever wrote:Sam's main strength is running on to the ball at speed and busting holes in the opposition line. To play him as a tackling back row player is a complete waste.
SL is absolutely right to put him in the centre.

I think his main strength is the ability to do it 20+ times per game. He's less likely to do that at 12, and I'm not sure he has the pace to play there for England given the tempo that Ford is trying to get our back line playing at. I haven't seen him burst through defenders in anything like the way Tuilagi does when fit.

Totally agree Thomh, his game is much more suited to a hard carrying backrow type player.

Sam is a retread, he will never be an international 12, play him at 6 ffs and watch him tackle and carry and find himself finishing moves out on the wing. Yes, if he had come up through the age grades he would have been an awesome 12 carrier but he didn't. No real pace, runs through people. Will stop packs dead if given the chance to get involved and run rampant in the loose.