Ulster 2014/2015, Part 4

First topic message reminder :

God we love the sound of our own voices.

To Qoute a cheesy line from a sickening Hollywood Feelgood sports movie, "Attitude reflects leadership". Its kind of true with us, we are lacking leadership, on the pitch and on the training paddock.

What did make me happy was the obvious effect Paddy Jackson had on us on Friday night, Les kiss said in one or two interviews at the start of the season that he sometimes wouldn't get a chance to talk to the team at half time as paddy would already be getting stuck into the boys.

Notch wrote:It's hard to tell. I think it was reckless because thats what he does all the time in that situation, but players aren't normally in that vulnerable position Patchell puts himself in.

I'm not trying to exonerate him or anything. Reckless can still be red.

Agreed, Im not saying he went in to hurt him but he did seem to try and hit him in the maul with the way he flung his arm out and backed off

BelfastDickVet wrote:To Qoute a cheesy line from a sickening Hollywood Feelgood sports movie, "Attitude reflects leadership". Its kind of true with us, we are lacking leadership, on the pitch and on the training paddock.

What did make me happy was the obvious effect Paddy Jackson had on us on Friday night, Les kiss said in one or two interviews at the start of the season that he sometimes wouldn't get a chance to talk to the team at half time as paddy would already be getting stuck into the boys.

Agreed, was also struck watching the warm-up at just how natural Chris Henry is at taking the lead and laying down the law- even when the replacements are just doing lineout drills its Henry who is talking all the time and really running the session.

Those two plus Rory Best and Roger Wilson are necessities for the run-in. We need all four of those guys fully fit and in top form to have a crack at this trophy. If we don't, we could struggle badly.

Having Humphreys stand in for Jackson and Cave as Captain... doesn't help.

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Ulster have three 'Test class' backrows: Henderson, Henry and Diack. That's nowhere near enough. They badly need a top quality 8 and a flanker.

It is amazing the lack of ambition shown by some of the Leinster lads that they'd rather be vying to be second/third choice down there than competing to be first choice at Ulster.

Aukster, they are all getting plenty of game time though and all of them have come through at Leinster so why move and become 2nd choice elsewhere?

What I mean by ambition is wanting to be number 1.
Murphy is behind Heaslip at Leinster and consequently behind him for Ireland. Ruddock is behind Murphy, so is Conan. Any of these three could be first choice starting 8 for Ulster and so challenging Heaslip for the Ireland shirt, without waiting for him to get injured. If they're comfortable with their lot then maybe they don't have the determination that Ulster is looking for anyway, but it is amazing that pro sportsmen seem happy to pass up opportunities to progress in such a short career.

If Murphy wasn't behind Heaslip at Leinster, he wouldn't be behind him for Ireland. Whatever it is (knowing the system, schmidt), being 2nd choice at Leinster does not hinder your international career.

The Great Aukster wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Ulster have three 'Test class' backrows: Henderson, Henry and Diack. That's nowhere near enough. They badly need a top quality 8 and a flanker.

It is amazing the lack of ambition shown by some of the Leinster lads that they'd rather be vying to be second/third choice down there than competing to be first choice at Ulster.

Aukster, they are all getting plenty of game time though and all of them have come through at Leinster so why move and become 2nd choice elsewhere?

What I mean by ambition is wanting to be number 1.
Murphy is behind Heaslip at Leinster and consequently behind him for Ireland. Ruddock is behind Murphy, so is Conan. Any of these three could be first choice starting 8 for Ulster and so challenging Heaslip for the Ireland shirt, without waiting for him to get injured. If they're comfortable with their lot then maybe they don't have the determination that Ulster is looking for anyway, but it is amazing that pro sportsmen seem happy to pass up opportunities to progress in such a short career.

Ruddock would be the first choice blindside flanker for Leinster, he doesn't really play at 8.

This time he's spot on. If Ruddock and Murphy systematically struggled to get into the Ireland set-up the incentive would be there. We might have a chance with Conan though.

Of course, the fact those guys are away with Ireland means Conan will get loads of opportunities with Leinster- we're only going to become an option once someones career stalls and that isn't happening with the Leinster lads. They know that there will be opportunities for Ireland due to not all the back rows for Ireland being fit at the same time. There are five or six guys who are going to get game time over the next few years for Ireland in the back row and being second choice internationally isn't as big an impediment to your career as you'd think. The less experienced ones know that they will get loads of game time in the Pro12 while the other guys are away.

Dominic Ryan should be available. He has been getting a good amount of time on the pitch this season but I'm sure he won't be happy with the fact he wouldn't be even close to getting an irish call up. I'd be surprised if he didn't move on, he wouldn't be short of offers from elsewhere.

So, it wasn't an April Fools after all. Ulster rugby have confirmed the signing of Charles Piutau


Ulster Rugby:



Ulster Rugby is delighted to confirm the signing of New Zealand international, Charles Piutau, on a two-year contract.

The 23 year-old, who can play at fullback, wing, or in the centre, will arrive at Kingspan Stadium on 1st July 2016.

Piutau was part of the 2011 Junior World Championship winning New Zealand U20s side and was the team’s top try scorer in the tournament. He also starred in the All Blacks Sevens team that won the World Series in 2011/12.

He made his test debut against France, in June 2013 and has played 14 international matches for the All Blacks so far, scoring four tries.

Born in Auckland, he has played 36 matches for the Blues in Super Rugby, scoring eight tries.

Commenting on signing for Ulster Rugby, Charles said:

“It was a difficult decision to leave the Blues and New Zealand rugby as I have really enjoyed my time with them so far. However, when I spoke with Ulster I was impressed with what they had to say and I am excited about their future plans.

“I am looking forward to moving to Belfast, experiencing a new culture and playing in the northern hemisphere. I can’t wait to get stuck in with my new teammates in July 2016.”

Ulster Rugby’s team manager, Bryn Cunningham, says the signing is an indication of the ambition at the province:

“To secure someone of Charles’ ability is hugely exciting for us as it shows that the best players want to come and represent Ulster Rugby and that the province can attract world-class talent.

“Our aim is to produce local players with the ability to play for Ulster and Ireland and then supplement them with top-quality internationals. Charles, with his experience with the All Blacks, fits perfectly in that model.

“As he has shown for both the Blues and New Zealand, he has searing pace and great feet. He has an exceptional offloading game and he is rock-solid in defence. He also possesses leadership qualities and maturity beyond his years and that came across strongly in my conversations with him.

“We could not ask for a more rounded, professional person and I believe that he will add enormous value to our squad both on and off the pitch."


What a great signing. well done to Ulster Rugby. Now, all we need is two back rows, and we're sorted.

Good aul' Stu.

https://twitter.com/stuart_olding/status/583003919254622208

It's good to see he is taking it well because getting frustrated and what not is worse for him than taking a positive attitude

So just to clarify, this NIQ signing comes at the end of 3/4 of our current signings contracts. It would appear its a straight up replacement for Ludik. In which case an absolutely superb signing!

As for dreams of Williams contract getting torn up and Read signing ... The signing of Charlie boy neither makes it less likely nor more.

I for one am very excited but would like to have something else to excite be before July 2016!

8 weeks for the thug Nick Williams

Chunky Norwich wrote:8 weeks for the thug Nick Williams

Completely deserved, i hope this isn't an April fool joke.

I'm not sure I agree it should be at the higher end of the scale, but I did expect Nick to be out for the remainder of the season anyway, so no argument.

I think he'll be AP's problem when he resumes his career.... going on the hints of the Ulster guys here.

Not sure, Fly. I've heard other rumours that Nick is refusing to go. Hopefully he does move on at the end of the season. As much as it would be good for Ulster Rugby, I think it would also be good for him.

8 weeks is the rest of the season, plus two friendlies next season.

It sounds like he was quite lucky, they went for sixteen weeks and then imposed an eight week reduction. More disciplinary panel randomness. Every time they do this they refer to an 'exemplary previous record' and to be fair Nick Williams did have a very good disciplinary record before this, but its normally 1 or 2 weeks. 8 weeks, half of the ban, seems like a lot

If we can somehow replace him in the off-season with another NIQ back rower, that would be swell. Poor decision to keep him on in the first place.

Chunky Norwich wrote:8 weeks for the thug Nick Williams

I think I know of another Williams who fits that description as well..

I don't believe what Nick did merits missing 16 weeks of rugby, but it did merit missing the remaining games of the season. If the citing panel went with mid level, then it would be hard to ban him for the remainder of the season considering his good record. So high level cut in half just about covers it.
That's my thinking anyway. Probably wrong.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:8 weeks for the thug Nick Williams

I think I know of another Williams who fits that description as well..

So?

On the subject of back row think we could tempt steffon armitage over? If he isn't bothered about England anymore I'm sure he could be convinced that ravenhill should be where he hangs his hat for a few years. And he can cover 6-8.
Or given a choice who would you good folk want?

I don't know who is realistic... I don't know what budget we have left from 2016 on. We'll have Pienaar and Piutau on the big money, do we have enough left for another big-name in there?

We are loaded

Sign Vermeulen


or maybe Willem Alberts

I tell you, if we were going to poach one NZ international who was in talks over a new contract this week, what I would have given for it to be Jerome Kaino...

Isn't there an Irish backrow lad out in the French d2 ? I'm sure I remember him being mentioned with harte as having a good season last year. I could be wrong. I often am

Kaino would have been a dream signing. Won't be free until after 2017.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:8 weeks for the thug Nick Williams

I think I know of another Williams who fits that description as well..

So?

One mention of bandy Liam look who sticks his neb in. Has he got a forum Liam alarm?

As far as our Williams goes it farewell big man.....probably

If Piutau is the level of signing that Bryn can attract then the off season will be bloody exciting. I still keep thinking the Piatau thing is an April fool

Yep Brynn used up all the money so it will be me playing in the backrow next year now in fairness I will probs get to the breakdown quicker than McComish or Ross, what I manage to do when I get there is a different story lol
Seriously though we should be looking at the options of trying to get someone from the south come up we may have to come in high on it though money wise

I don't think we are allowed to get into bidding wars with the other provinces.

Notch wrote:8 weeks is the rest of the season, plus two friendlies next season.

It sounds like he was quite lucky, they went for sixteen weeks and then imposed an eight week reduction. More disciplinary panel randomness. Every time they do this they refer to an 'exemplary previous record' and to be fair Nick Williams did have a very good disciplinary record before this, but its normally 1 or 2 weeks. 8 weeks, half of the ban, seems like a lot

If we can somehow replace him in the off-season with another NIQ back rower, that would be swell. Poor decision to keep him on in the first place.

For anyone looking objectively at the Williams incident about 1 or 2 weeks would have been right. However it is increasingly apparent that Ulster's bans have been progressively getting longer due to the commission seemingly imposing a cumulative punishment irrespective of the incident or the player. McCloskey was given an extra week as a 'deterrent' and Marshall's accidental 'kick' was considered mid-range of 8 weeks. It's only anecdotal but what other explanation is there?

I keep saying it but we are due a sh*tstorm at this world cup. Luke Marshalls 5 week ban compared with Bismarcks 4 week is a case in point. The severity and randomness of penalties being adjudicated on whether the panel was born north or south of the equator being one instance.

Kaino would have been a great signing but he has done his time away from NZ it seems now. in 2017 I cant see him commanding the $$$$ like he would have now.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Notch wrote:8 weeks is the rest of the season, plus two friendlies next season.

It sounds like he was quite lucky, they went for sixteen weeks and then imposed an eight week reduction. More disciplinary panel randomness. Every time they do this they refer to an 'exemplary previous record' and to be fair Nick Williams did have a very good disciplinary record before this, but its normally 1 or 2 weeks. 8 weeks, half of the ban, seems like a lot

If we can somehow replace him in the off-season with another NIQ back rower, that would be swell. Poor decision to keep him on in the first place.

For anyone looking objectively at the Williams incident about 1 or 2 weeks would have been right. However it is increasingly apparent that Ulster's bans have been progressively getting longer due to the commission seemingly imposing a cumulative punishment irrespective of the incident or the player. McCloskey was given an extra week as a 'deterrent' and Marshall's accidental 'kick' was considered mid-range of 8 weeks. It's only anecdotal but what other explanation is there?

I have to disagee, Williams has been walking a fine line for a while now and he seemed to go straight for Patchell so hes lucky leniency was shown

I still don't get the Williams thing. Surely clumsiness, or disregard for player well being. But seriously - not like a kick, stamp or punch. Not even a swinging arm. I agree on a red card and ban being warranted but I genuinely think 8 weeks is a joke. The only reason there is no outcry is because he was costing us in other ways and we were glad to not have him available.

Williams runs from distance to join rucks/mauls hard. And here is a fact. Williams had already began bombing towards the ruck BEFORE Patchel joined it and placed his head where Williams was heading.

Could Williams have pulled out? Maybe. Did the upward draw of the arm look bad? Yes. Did the upward draw cause the injury? Most likely not.

Williams has been unfairly treated. Had this been Henry I'd be livid at the ban. Livid!

Citing panels are as consistent as the N.Irish weather. They like to make their decisions based not only on the player's actions but the effects of said actions. If Patchell hadn't been knocked sparko it would have been a 2 weeker. It's not the forearm/elbow smash that's been ruled on but the effect it had. Nathan Hughes got a 3 week ban for accidentally making contact with George North's head. The accidental part seemingly being ignored.

clivemcl wrote:I still don't get the Williams thing. Surely clumsiness, or disregard for player well being. But seriously - not like a kick, stamp or punch. Not even a swinging arm. I agree on a red card and ban being warranted but I genuinely think 8 weeks is a joke. The only reason there is no outcry is because he was costing us in other ways and we were glad to not have him available.

Williams runs from distance to join rucks/mauls hard. And here is a fact. Williams had already began bombing towards the ruck BEFORE Patchel joined it and placed his head where Williams was heading.

Could Williams have pulled out? Maybe. Did the upward draw of the arm look bad? Yes. Did the upward draw cause the injury? Most likely not.

Williams has been unfairly treated. Had this been Henry I'd be livid at the ban. Livid!

clive the problem is he didnt join the maul he ran and hit Patchell and then stood over him.

If he'd hit it and tried to stop it advancing fair enough but it was nowhere close

marty2086 wrote:

clivemcl wrote:I still don't get the Williams thing. Surely clumsiness, or disregard for player well being. But seriously - not like a kick, stamp or punch. Not even a swinging arm. I agree on a red card and ban being warranted but I genuinely think 8 weeks is a joke. The only reason there is no outcry is because he was costing us in other ways and we were glad to not have him available.

Williams runs from distance to join rucks/mauls hard. And here is a fact. Williams had already began bombing towards the ruck BEFORE Patchel joined it and placed his head where Williams was heading.

Could Williams have pulled out? Maybe. Did the upward draw of the arm look bad? Yes. Did the upward draw cause the injury? Most likely not.

Williams has been unfairly treated. Had this been Henry I'd be livid at the ban. Livid!

clive the problem is he didnt join the maul he ran and hit Patchell and then stood over him.

If he'd hit it and tried to stop it advancing fair enough but it was nowhere close

Williams made as much contact with his own player as he did Patchell. If you check the footage, Williams was on his way to drive his own player before Patchel bonded. Seconds later Williams also charged into the back of Mike Allen in order to drive him forward. William is just brutish and doesn't think much about who he hurts. As for malice. I'm not sure. Not in the initial hit anyway. The arm movement thereafter had a 'for good measure' look to it. Still think its harsh.

clive for me too many things about it weren't right and didn't smack of someone playing within the rules, it could well be that he is a reckless idiot but that makes him a liability and in need of a wake up call

Irrespective of what we think of Williams, it looked to a couple of Welsh backrow pundits, namely Charvis commentating on the game, and Martyn Williams on Scrum V that it was a yellow offence.

I think it was a red because it was reckless and deserved one or two weeks. Williams rushed in and that was dangerous irrespective of intent. If there was any intent it looked to me as though he kept his hand low to grab Patchell's wrist and break his bind hence the arm movement. Players are forever doing that so the position of his arm wasn't that strange, it was the clumsiness of hitting RP deserved the card.

Compared to other bans 16 weeks is so excessive and inconsistent, that the only explanation is that the C/C must be targeting teams with serial offences by increasing the tariff each time until they get their message across.

The Great Aukster wrote:
Compared to other bans 16 weeks is so excessive and inconsistent, that the only explanation is that the C/C must be targeting teams with serial offences by increasing the tariff each time until they get their message across.

Is that a bad thing though? If it wasn't for the farcical nature of the Luke Marshall and Roger Wilson bans (seriously still can't see either of those being anything more than yellow) I'd say we deserve it. Discipline has been terrible. It has to end with this.

Yep, if losing Williams for the season is what it takes to bring the penalty count down for the next couple of vital games, I'd take that trade off! Discipline had better improve now!

At this stage if it doesn't stop especially with the leaders coming back into the team then it's a coaching issue. If it happens a few times a season thats a player issue but if it keeps happening week after week after week as at the moment thats a coaching issue. Either the coaches are not telling them to stop it or they aren't listening either way it reflects badly on the coach because a strong coach would make sure it stopped.

clivemcl wrote:I agree on a red card and ban being warranted

For what offence?

Pete330v2 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:8 weeks for the thug Nick Williams

I think I know of another Williams who fits that description as well..

So?

One mention of bandy Liam look who sticks his neb in. Has he got a forum Liam alarm?

What are you talking about?

Get a job Chunky.

Lovely lot Ulster.

Have you visited chunky? Weather isn't always great but the people are wonderful. Hey its Easter come over for the long weekend

Never been. Maybe I'll come over for the final.

You should.