Ulster 2014/2015, Part 4

First topic message reminder :

God we love the sound of our own voices.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

clivemcl wrote:I agree on a red card and ban being warranted

For what offence?

Are you going to answer?

clivemcl wrote:Williams has been unfairly treated.

I disagree with that comment on so many levels. I think you are looking at it through Ulster tinted glasses. Look, I do not want a bun fight with you lot on here, but I think he is lucky with eight weeks.

Nick Williams ran at the ruck, he looked at where Rhys Patchell was, lowered his body, he lined himself up with Patchell and hit him on the side of the head with the upper part of his massive bicep, then followed through with his arm movement upwards. At no point did he bind or join the maul, he just threw himself at it, for me he knew exactly what he was doing, he might not have wanted that particular outcome, but he was in control the whole time.

Rhys Patchell was not even looking up, or aware that anyone was coming, it was a cowardly act of the highest order, and if it was an Ulster player on the receiving end I bet you would not be defending the culprit.

I find it interesting as well ,that Mrs P has not been up in arms about this incident giving her history with player welfare. I wonder why she is so quiet this time ?

LordDowlais wrote: if it was an Ulster player on the receiving end I bet you would not be defending the culprit.

You can bet your life on that one.

I bet no welsh fan has ever felt a player/region/club has be hard done by ever. I mean not once have I heard anything like that at all.

carpet baboon wrote:I bet no welsh fan has ever felt a player/region/club has be hard done by ever. I mean not once have I heard anything like that at all.

It's not a case of that though is it ? Look, Gareth Davies was red carded on the same weekend, he should miss the rest of the season, you will not here many complaints from us, what Nick Williams did was cowardly, he knew what he was going to do as he approached the maul, he lined himself up with Patchell and followed through as well, if that was on the street he would be looking at some serious court cases. He is lucky it is only eight weeks.

Also, as an aside issue, what is wrong with Ulsters discipline this season ? They never used to be this bad, is this something they are being told to be like ? Ulster are starting to give themselves a real nasty reputation, and it could end up costing you.

LordDowlais wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Williams has been unfairly treated.

I disagree with that comment on so many levels. I think you are looking at it through Ulster tinted glasses. Look, I do not want a bun fight with you lot on here, but I think he is lucky with eight weeks.

Nick Williams ran at the ruck, he looked at where Rhys Patchell was, lowered his body, he lined himself up with Patchell and hit him on the side of the head with the upper part of his massive bicep, then followed through with his arm movement upwards. At no point did he bind or join the maul, he just threw himself at it, for me he knew exactly what he was doing, he might not have wanted that particular outcome, but he was in control the whole time.

Rhys Patchell was not even looking up, or aware that anyone was coming, it was a cowardly act of the highest order, and if it was an Ulster player on the receiving end I bet you would not be defending the culprit.

I find it interesting as well ,that Mrs P has not been up in arms about this incident giving her history with player welfare. I wonder why she is so quiet this time ?

I believe just about all Ulster supporters have agreed that it was a red card offence. Some believe marginal while most see it as a clear red. The facts are that Williams was cited, and has now been suspended for the remainder of the season. The opinions of Ulster supporters on the incident, and the outcome won't change that fact. So why are you, and Chunky, persisting to argue the same points repetitively. Surely Williams suspension satisfies your sense of justice, and that of Chunky?

Munchkin you have found the head of the nail and whacked it. Thank you

LordDowlais wrote:
Also, as an aside issue, what is wrong with Ulsters discipline this season ? They never used to be this bad, is this something they are being told to be like ? Ulster are starting to give themselves a real nasty reputation, and it could end up costing you.

All Ulsters problems, come from rucks and mauls. O'Connor, Marshall, McCloskey and Wilson were all cited and banned for incidents at one or another.

While it doesn't look good on paper 3 were innocuous incidents were circumstances led to injury while McCloskey was unlucky that Allen had the player too but was stupid at the same time that he didnt react to the circumstances.

uote="Munchkin"] So why are you persisting to argue the same points repetitively [/quote]

Excuse me, but who are you to tell me what I can talk about on here ? I have come on here to see what is being made of the ban, and saw that clive has said he thinks that Nick Williams has been treated unfairly, I wanted to debate with him about that, after all isn't that what this place is for ?

Are you upset that Nick Williams will be out for the rest of the season ? Perhaps that is why you are getting so defensive about it. I for one do not like the cheap shot culture that is creeping into our game, it needs to be wiped out, and if lengthy bans are the only way to do it, then so be it.

Munchkin wrote: Surely Williams suspension satisfies your sense of justice, and that of Chunky?

I have no idea why a 16 week ban can be halfed because someone hasn't been in the dock for a while.

marty2086 wrote: 3 were innocuous incidents

Punching John Barclay in the face is innocuous?

It seems to me there is an "excuse culture" amongst the Ulster fans that aims to make light of the thuggish element of their players. Their players are "harshly treated and are rarely guilty of anything".

Not nice.

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
Also, as an aside issue, what is wrong with Ulsters discipline this season ? They never used to be this bad, is this something they are being told to be like ? Ulster are starting to give themselves a real nasty reputation, and it could end up costing you.

All Ulsters problems, come from rucks and mauls. O'Connor, Marshall, McCloskey and Wilson were all cited and banned for incidents at one or another.

While it doesn't look good on paper 3 were innocuous incidents were circumstances led to injury while McCloskey was unlucky that Allen had the player too but was stupid at the same time that he didnt react to the circumstances.

Ah, I suppose some of them have been unlucky calls, I have to admit, I cannot remember half of them, but at the moment Ulster are lying at the bottom of the fair play league, or what ever you call it, and all I have heard this season is Ulster this and Ulster that, you would not want to be building yourself up as a Northampton type of team, that could cost you, I suppose Ulster are not as bad in real life as they are on paper, but what happened last Friday is still fresh in the mind, and that was not innocuous, it was malicious.

carpet baboon wrote:Munchkin you have found the head of the nail and whacked it. Thank you

Not that it will stop them from moaning though. They like a good moan

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote: 3 were innocuous incidents

Punching John Barclay in the face is innocuous?

It seems to me there is an "excuse culture" amongst the Ulster fans that aims to make light of the thuggish element of their players. Their players are "harshly treated and are rarely guilty of anything".

Not nice.

He caught him when going for the ball, hardly Tuilagi knocking seven bells out of Ashton

If you read back over this thread you'll see plenty criticise Williams and his actions before the Patchell incident saying he'll get banned sooner or later so that hardly fits with an excuse culture

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote: 3 were innocuous incidents

Punching John Barclay in the face is innocuous?

It seems to me there is an "excuse culture" amongst the Ulster fans that aims to make light of the thuggish element of their players. Their players are "harshly treated and are rarely guilty of anything".

Not nice.

He caught him when going for the ball, hardly Tuilagi knocking seven bells out of Ashton

If you read back over this thread you'll see plenty criticise Williams and his actions before the Patchell incident saying he'll get banned sooner or later so that hardly fits with an excuse culture

Just calling it as I see it. "Innocuous red cards" and "Nick Williams being treated unfairly" just doesn't sit well.

LordDowlais wrote:uote="Munchkin"] So why are you persisting to argue the same points repetitively

Excuse me, but who are you to tell me what I can talk about on here ? I have come on here to see what is being made of the ban, and saw that clive has said he thinks that Nick Williams has been treated unfairly, I wanted to debate with him about that, after all isn't that what this place is for ?

Are you upset that Nick Williams will be out for the rest of the season ? Perhaps that is why you are getting so defensive about it. I for one do not like the cheap shot culture that is creeping into our game, it needs to be wiped out, and if lengthy bans are the only way to do it, then so be it.
[/quote]


You can talk about what you want, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not telling you that you can't talk about it.

No, I'm not upset that Williams is out for the rest of the season. I was annoyed with Williams at the time for a senseless act. Defensive? Only in your mind, LD.

You think Ulster are developing a cheap shot culture? You really need to develop a sense of perspective if you do.

Clive has already clearly explained why he thinks the ruling was harsh. Maybe you missed it, or maybe you just want to vent spleen.....

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote: 3 were innocuous incidents

Punching John Barclay in the face is innocuous?

It seems to me there is an "excuse culture" amongst the Ulster fans that aims to make light of the thuggish element of their players. Their players are "harshly treated and are rarely guilty of anything".

Not nice.

He caught him when going for the ball, hardly Tuilagi knocking seven bells out of Ashton

If you read back over this thread you'll see plenty criticise Williams and his actions before the Patchell incident saying he'll get banned sooner or later so that hardly fits with an excuse culture

Just calling it as I see it. "Innocuous red cards" and "Nick Williams being treated unfairly" just doesn't sit well.

None of the three I called innocuous received red cards, I called them incidents and I never said Williams was treated unfairly, in fact a referee looked at Wilsons and said he seen nothing wrong with it at the time

marty2086 wrote:

None of the three I called innocuous received red cards,

They were deemed serious red card offences by the citing panels. So "innocuous" is a strange word to describe incidents liek these.

I called them incidents and I never said Williams was treated unfairly

No, it was another member of the excuse clan.

Why are these two tools on here when they have their own little rocks to crawl under. LD screamed about Williams using his shouler on Patchel's head and now it's his bicep. If we keep going the point of contact will be at his wrist and we'll have to suffer Williams for the rest of the season.

Nobody on here has ever defended Williams. Inconsistencies in citings has been discussed as to the harshness of Williams' ban but he hasn't been defended. He deserves the ban and then he's off to Harlequins who are welcome to him, he's done anyway.

Ulsters citings this season have been utterly ludicrous in some cases. I'm not going to get into the same recurring arguments but I can think of 4 that should never have been anywhere near a citing panel.

Oh and just as we're on the cheap shots subject try this for a particularly disgusting and dangerous one:

https://twitter.com/glove39/status/567303585126707200

Pete330v2 wrote:Why are these two tools on here when they have their own little rocks to crawl under.

Excuse clan. Deluded. Unable to face facts.

Pete330v2 wrote:Why are these two tools on here when they have their own little rocks to crawl under

Well, this tool will not bother you anymore, as I said earlier I do not want a bun fight with anybody, the way you resort to name calling though, and the arrogant style of your posts does suggest your attitude to both your club and the way in which they like to conduct themslelves are one of the same, thuggish clubs attract thuggish fans after all.

LordDowlais wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Why are these two tools on here when they have their own little rocks to crawl under

Well, this tool will not bother you anymore, as I said earlier I do not want a bun fight with anybody, the way you resort to name calling though, and the arrogant style of your posts does suggest your attitude to both your club and the way in which they like to conduct themslelves are one of the same, thuggish clubs attract thuggish fans after all.

LD, as much as I can't, and won't, tell you what can't say, you have crossed a line. Wind it in.

Munchkin wrote:LD, as much as I can't, and won't, tell you what to say, you have crossed a line. Wind it in..

What line have I crossed Munchkin ? Should I just sit here and take being verbaly abused by Pete ? Like I said, I will not bother any of you on the subject anymore.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

None of the three I called innocuous received red cards,

They were deemed serious red card offences by the citing panels. So "innocuous" is a strange word to describe incidents liek these.

I called them incidents and I never said Williams was treated unfairly

No, it was another member of the excuse clan.

No Marshalls was the only one deemed a red card offence and even then it was a ridiculous interpretation of it as the Scarlets players at the time saw nothing in it and they and the ref saw it played on the big screen and saw nothing in it

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:LD, as much as I can't, and won't, tell you what to say, you have crossed a line. Wind it in..

What line have I crossed Munchkin ? Should I just sit here and take being verbaly abused by Pete ? Like I said, I will not bother any of you on the subject anymore.

You think this is acceptable?

"......does suggest your attitude to both your club and the way in which they like to conduct themslelves are one of the same, thuggish clubs attract thuggish fans after all."

Really?

Lads why do you bother with either of the,PM. Hitlers agenda was more subtle for gods sake. Stick them on ignore and have done with it but for the love of god stop quoting them

LordDowlais wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Why are these two tools on here when they have their own little rocks to crawl under

Well, this tool will not bother you anymore, as I said earlier I do not want a bun fight with anybody, the way you resort to name calling though, and the arrogant style of your posts does suggest your attitude to both your club and the way in which they like to conduct themslelves are one of the same, thuggish clubs attract thuggish fans after all.

And there's the toolish behaviour yet again.
LD there is a whole topic about Ulster's cards and citings created by your buddy there yet you choose to come on the Ulster thread to go on and on, ad nauseam on the subject of Ulster's thuggish behaviour. If you expected polite replies thanking you for your invaluable input then once again, go to your pal's little topic where you can insult us to your hearts content. He's finding it hard to get people to post comments so help him out there.

Munchkin wrote:"......does suggest your attitude to both your club and the way in which they like to conduct themslelves are one of the same, thuggish clubs attract thuggish fans after all."

It was aimed at Pete, to be honest, I wrote it out of frustration after the name calling and the arrogant nature of his post, I appologise if it has caused you an offence.

Pete330v2 wrote:go to your pal's little topic where you can insult us to your hearts content

I do not come on here to insult anyone, just to talk about the topics of rugby that are being talked about averywhere else, I will leave the insults to you.

It hasn't caused me offense, LD. I was thinking more that it isn't wise to continue with that sort of rhetoric. Your choice though.

Lets do as Stand says and ignore the interlopers, they can't take what they themselves like to dish out. We need to get back to discussing Ulster Rugby as a positive.

But they think its a conspiracy by the Irish to keep them good welsh clubs/regions/ down. If we ignore them do we prove they are right and we are part of some magical rugby sorcery out to get them?

carpet baboon wrote:But they think its a conspiracy by the Irish to keep them good welsh clubs/regions/ down. If we ignore them do we prove they are right and we are part of some magical rugby sorcery out to get them?

It doesn't matter what you do, the deluded remain deluded. Let them cry wolf, one that comes back to bite them.

I know. It just amazes me how firmly they believe they are being conspired against. Part of me hopes its some grand farcical comedy show. Part of me fears its real

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/News/LatestNews/TabId/149/ArtMID/793/ArticleID/3468/Ulster-Rugby-signs-outhalf-Sam-Windsor-on-a-one-year-deal-.aspx

So back to Ulster and a new signing announced for next season at 10

Sam Windsor from Worcester?

IQ Aussie, 27 and had a stint at Leinster before

Presumably signed because they think Jackson may well go to the world cup so they have someone to back up IHumph

I can't find much info on the fella apart from his lack of gametime for Worcester due to injury. I hope he's not just going to be yet another name passing in the night. Our collection of those players is already full.
Mind you if he's a good find it'll buck up Ian Humphrey's ideas. Fingers crossed eh.

neilthom7 wrote:Presumably signed because they think Jackson may well go to the world cup so they have someone to back up IHumph

{{{{ shudder }}}}

Dear Bryn,

Sign some forwards.

Yours sincerely,

D. Alfonso (esq.)

P.S.

Not an injured one. Nor a rubbish one.

Notch wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:
Compared to other bans 16 weeks is so excessive and inconsistent, that the only explanation is that the C/C must be targeting teams with serial offences by increasing the tariff each time until they get their message across.

Is that a bad thing though? If it wasn't for the farcical nature of the Luke Marshall and Roger Wilson bans (seriously still can't see either of those being anything more than yellow) I'd say we deserve it. Discipline has been terrible. It has to end with this.

No I don't see it as a bad thing at all, just confusing mixed messages.

The problem is with the Citing Commission as there is obviously no consistency in their verdicts. That comes from a lack of clarity on what they are trying to achieve - are they:
1. trying to promote best practice in the game
2. punish unacceptable behaviour by individuals
3. punish teams proportionately to their disciplinary records
4. clarify the interpretation of the Laws for the officials
5. change the game without changing the Laws
6. make the game safer
7. something else or a cocktail of the above?


Two respected former Test backrows in Colin Charvis and Martyn Williams (two days later) both called the Nick Williams incident as a yellow card, despite all the pressure on them to say otherwise. Has the game changed so much since their day that from being a borderline yellow, the same incident has become a 16 week ban?

It is guys of their generation (and older) that are in the coaching ranks now so how are they supposed to impart their knowledge of "playing on the edge", if that edge has been eroded so far beneath them. It seems that no-one knows where the edge is or whether it is different for different teams or countries or competitions or weather conditions or whatever. The nature of incidents is so diverse there can be no inconsistency and there can be no message to send to the game in general.

For example someone running as fast as they can, could be deemed reckless if they accidentally hit someone (it's not if they don't). If that action is undesirable and needs eradicated from the game, this should apply to a collision between team mates just as much as between opponents. That has never happened as far as I'm aware, so making the game safer cannot be one of the criteria.

For me the whole citing process is bordering on the ridiculous and should be seriously scrutinised by World Rugby to instill a modicum of common sense into it, and at least state a goal concerning what they hope to achieve from it.

marty2086 wrote:http://www.ulsterrugby.com/News/LatestNews/TabId/149/ArtMID/793/ArticleID/3468/Ulster-Rugby-signs-outhalf-Sam-Windsor-on-a-one-year-deal-.aspx

So back to Ulster and a new signing announced for next season at 10

Sam Windsor from Worcester?

IQ Aussie, 27 and had a stint at Leinster before  

I hope he enjoys playing in the AIL!

ReadBetweenthePosts wrote:

marty2086 wrote:http://www.ulsterrugby.com/News/LatestNews/TabId/149/ArtMID/793/ArticleID/3468/Ulster-Rugby-signs-outhalf-Sam-Windsor-on-a-one-year-deal-.aspx

So back to Ulster and a new signing announced for next season at 10

Sam Windsor from Worcester?

IQ Aussie, 27 and had a stint at Leinster before  

I hope he enjoys playing in the AIL!

The guy was signed on a 1 year deal considering there is a good chance Paddy Jackson won't be back until after the world cup then he may we get plenty of gametime next season especially if IHumph is as awful as he has been.
This appears to be his highlights from his days before Worcester https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62Pk_u4YJZE

I disagreed with signing Mike Stanley because I couldn't see the need for him.

This is a bit different. Firstly he is IQ and that undoubtedly was top of Bryn's criteria list. How Bryn knows so much about him is amazing though considering he has been injured since December - was he on Cornerflag's books?

I can't see Jackson being in the RWC squad but he will be involved in the warm-ups and will be on stand-by, so it's fair to assume he will not be available. Pienaar is also likely to be missing with SA. Olding is injured, Luke Marshall will be in the centre, and Humphreys is flaky at best. So that only leaves O'Hagan or Bingham as an option. I like SOH as an option and think this is the perfect opportunity to test him so I hope Windsor will genuinely be competing with him for a start during Jacko's absence.

We have to plan for Jackson going to the World Cup of course, we can't assume he won't be and then get caught out. O'Hagan shows no sign of being ready yet, so this is a good enough signing.

SOH was injured for a while but from what I've heard he has been impressing plenty of people.

If anyone was looking a ticket to see the Munster game you may already be too late. There are less than 1000 tickets left.  The positive news is that despite us being relatively muck this year, if you take the Leinster v Munster attendance (which was 45k at the aviva) down to the 18000 they would have got in the RDS, on average we are the best supported team in the league.

There's still nothing between Leinster and ulster and Munster aren't a million miles away but probably suffer from the cork games

It's going to be impossible to get a ticket after we've next actually won something.

LordDowlais wrote:
Are you upset that Nick Williams will be out for the rest of the season ? Perhaps that is why you are getting so defensive about it. I for one do not like the cheap shot culture that is creeping into our game, it needs to be wiped out, and if lengthy bans are the only way to do it, then so be it.

I have made comments on the other thread Lord agreeing that all actionbs of intent need wiped out and referees need to be of a higher standard, consistancy and held to account themselves. Problem is, I was trying to evolve the conversation in general terms. General debate of course is of no interest to those on an anti-ulster crusade and so my worthwhile points were swiftly ignored in favour of talking about Ulster and Ulster alone....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32189807?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

(And I would say it about any member of the public) ... Total idiot!