The Indian Wells Masters 1000 Thread

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Figured that masters 1000 events deserve their own threads and as such here is your place for all things Indian Wells.

[Josiah Maiestas]

Raonic biggest balls in Canada. If he can beat Fed aswell... then he really will be confident of backing it up in the slams.

Yeah so big they didnt even broadcast the game .. we had Cricket instead

They have shot themselves in the foot with that decision I was well prepared for Fedal part 35 Maybe they'll never meet again!

[Belovedluckyboy]

Only watched the last few games but from what I read, he had 2 MPs on his serve during the second set tiebreak but blew them and so lost the second set and then lost the match in three sets! What's Rafa doing these days? In the past he's so clutch and would serve an ace to close the match. Right now, he panic at crucial moments, when serving for the set or the match, just like his match vs Simon earlier on.

Reading the stats, Rafa had more BPs than Raonic, he served well too, so he's not playing badly and even playing better than Raonic, yet he lost it when he could have won in straight sets! I'm disappointed with the way he lost it, it's not like he's being outplayed, he just couldn't do it when approaching the finishing line, and that's so disappointing! Where's that clutch Rafa that we used to see, what happened to his confidence??

When Rafa's mental strength is gone, he would have a hard time winning tight matches. It's surprisng how a 14 time slam winner has such low confidence, when is he going to beat a top ten player? He's thinking too much when serving, hence all the TVs called out on him. He's not serving badly, why couldn't he serve an ace to finish the job? Raonic is not Novak, why worry so much when serving? The game where he lost his serve, clearly he's thinking too much, and not confident enough to serve an ace or two. Disappointing end to a winnable match for Rafa!!

[Haddie-nuff]

Raonic biggest balls in Canada. If he can beat Fed aswell... then he really will be confident of backing it up in the slams.

Yeah so big they didnt even broadcast the game .. we had Cricket instead

They have shot themselves in the foot with that decision I was well prepared for Fedal part 35 Maybe they'll never meet again!

The irony is that when tennis is being broadcast in intervals they ram Raonic, the Canadian team and the DC down your throat they then push Canadian Tennis with some stupid advert with Raonic asking a little girl to move his car because it had been blocked in.. by pushing it !!!!!!a mindless advert if ever I saw one. They broadcast Fed/Berdy but not Raonic

[Haddie-nuff]

Only watched the last few games but from what I read, he had 2 MPs on his serve during the second set tiebreak but blew them and so lost the second set and then lost the match in three sets! What's Rafa doing these days? In the past he's so clutch and would serve an ace to close the match. Right now, he panic at crucial moments, when serving for the set or the match, just like his match vs Simon earlier on.  

Reading the stats, Rafa had more BPs than Raonic, he served well too, so he's not playing badly and even playing better than Raonic, yet he lost it when he could have won in straight sets!  I'm disappointed with the way he lost it, it's not like he's being outplayed, he just couldn't do it when approaching the finishing line, and that's so disappointing!  Where's that clutch Rafa that we used to see, what happened to his confidence??  

When Rafa's mental strength is gone, he would have a hard time winning tight matches.  It's surprisng how a 14 time slam winner has such low confidence, when is he going to beat a top ten player?  He's thinking too much when serving, hence all the TVs called out on him.  He's not serving badly, why couldn't he serve an ace to finish the job? Raonic is not Novak, why worry so much when serving?  The game where he lost his serve, clearly he's thinking too much, and  not confident enough to serve an ace or two. Disappointing end to a winnable match for Rafa!!

I am personally of the belief that is not the reason for Rafa's loss of confidence, whilst I admit that this loss of confidence  has affected his  mindset.
Rafa has returned so often from injury. (many times before he should have done) even playing with appendicitis. I feel that consciously or unconsciously he must wonder whether  his body will let him down again. Long drawn out tight matches must have an affect on his ability to focus, as we often see him having a strange blip in the middle of a match.  He has admitted that he plays in pain it has become a way of life.. but how long can anyone mentally cope with that.
He has also said that rankings are not so important but winning tournaments is.. and when he cannot do that...???????
I sincerely hope that the optimists are correct; we wrote Federer off a little over a year ago and now look at him.. but Rafa's situation is somewhat different and my glass is half empty

[invisiblecoolers]

Roanic saves Tennis today, all hail the hero.

[Haddie-nuff]

Roanic saves Tennis today, all hail the hero.

Let us hope the hero saves it tomorrow and the day after

[Belovedluckyboy]

If Raonic saved tennis today, I think we're in for a dark age in tennis! More like Raonic saved Fed from another beating from Rafa! Too bad for Raonic, he had spent too much energy beating Rafa, and would be flat like a pancake when facing Fed. Fed to win in straight sets, but Murray to win it all! It always happens, that one has to spend all his energy beating Rafa and so lose the next match tamely.

[Haddie-nuff]

There was never anyone more relieved that Fed today... he must be sleeping soundly in his bed tonight knowing that he is in the final ..and he didnt have to meet Rafa
I echo your comment Blb.. save tennis..??? !!!!!! jeez if thats tennis Ive been watching the wrong sport all these years...

[CaledonianCraig]

And do you know what the best part is? Nobody (well not many) care for his game. The type of players to halt his march are those much-maligned great returners of serve Djokovic and Murray. Funny how things turn out.

[laverfan]

To each his own, of likes and dislikes. There is room for all styles. Uniqueness allows identity of a player. If all Tennis was played the same way, it would be very robotic and lack the human aspect.

Federer lost Seppi in a slam, this is just a MS1000. Federer lost to Canas, two in a row, Simon, Karlovic and many others. But he still plays.

Ferrer lost to Tomic and Tomic withdrew. Reminds me of Fognini at RG beating Montanes and then withdrawing v Djokovic.

Nadal has won quite a few in his time, as Duggie would say, Father Time waits for no one. You play, leave your mark, and slowly walk into the sunset.

Somewhere in the back of my mind, I think Borg walked away when he could at his peak, after losing the motivation, and he was at peace with himself.

Nadal has played a very good clay swing so far. Give him a break, BLB/Hn. He does not need to be put under a microscope for specimen analysis.

[summerblues]

from what I read, he had 2 MPs on his serve during the second set tiebreak

I believe all Rafa's MPs were on Rao's serve.

[CaledonianCraig]

I agree laverfan. It is just that some of the posts liking Raonic tonight is not all if any to do with his style but more to do with the ramifications of his win in terms of the semis.

As you say, every player has their fans and admirers and each have their own shelf-life. I won't write Rafa off just yet when there is still a very good chance another slam win will come his way in a couple of months time.

[Haddie-nuff]

To each his own, of likes and dislikes. There is room for all styles. Uniqueness allows identity of a player. If all Tennis was played the same way, it would be very robotic and lack the human aspect.

Federer lost Seppi in a slam, this is just a MS1000. Federer lost to Canas, two in a row, Simon, Karlovic and many others. But he still plays.

Ferrer lost to Tomic and Tomic withdrew. Reminds me of Fognini at RG beating Montanes and then withdrawing v Djokovic.

Nadal has won quite a few in his time, as Duggie would say, Father Time waits for no one. You play, leave your mark, and slowly walk into the sunset.

Somewhere in the back of my mind, I think Borg walked away when he could at his peak, after losing the motivation, and he was at peace with himself.

Nadal has played a very good clay swing so far. Give him a break, BLB/Hn. He does not need to be put under a microscope for specimen analysis.

Oh give it up LF  your in danger of sounding somewhat sanctimonious if I can say....fans are bound to have any of the top players under a microscope... it wasn't so long ago it was Federer,he was scrutinized by everyone,  lately it has been Andy and should Novak have a blip it will be him.. so this is not something new.

 And  incidentally also to add to Borg's lack of motivation when he retired he was in the midst of an acrimonious divorce !!!! It wasn't all about his tennis

[summerblues]

There was never anyone more relieved that Fed today... he must be sleeping soundly in his bed tonight knowing that he is in the final ..and he didnt have to meet Rafa

As was often the case on hard courts when they were younger, this week Rafa is good enough to beat Fed but not good enough to meet him.

[Belovedluckyboy]

Rafa himself was much more positive than when he lost at AO or Rio. He's slowly getting back on track, he didn't play badly but got nervous when it mattered most. He had to overcome that nervousness, and winning matches, any matches, would help. He said he needed more work on his second serve returns, at least he knew what went wrong and what needed improvement. I think after Miami, he should be fine when back on clay. The two HC Masters provide some match plays for him to be ready for the clay season. I hope he goes deep at Miami so that he can play himself into form sooner.

I won't say Rafa is not good enough to meet Fed, more like not ready yet to meet him. He's good enough to have MP in the QF and almost won, certainly wasn't 'not good enough'.

[Guest]

I managed to hang on and watch the match. It so looked on Rafa's racquet and the guts Raonic showed on those BP's was amazing! The frustrating thing for Rafa would be facing a guy with the a non-existent BH and feeding his FH.

Well played Milos though

[Belovedluckyboy]

The frustrating thing is, Rafa had won more points than Raonic, better stats at serving and returning, had more BP chances, and even had MPs but failed to capitalize. A more confident Rafa would have done the job. Raonic was always playing like that, ie playing with guts, because he knew that when everything else failed, he still had his serves to bail him out of troubles. He just hung in there and waited for his opponent to falter and made errors, knowing full well that his opponent would feel pressurized having to hold serve game after game.

Raonic of course has improved his game, I feel his follow up shot after his big serve has improved, his movement too, still a good returner of serves could still break him, the likes of Novak and Ferrer, even this present Rafa managed to break his serve in set one.

[bogbrush]

You have to credit Raonic, this court is made for Nadal - they showed at one point even Raonic had to jump to hit a ground stroke.

Sad bitterness from some on here; Federer clearly relished the chance to play Nadal, otherwise he wouldn't have sent Berdych home with some baked goods.

[Born Slippy]

Fairly convinced Fed would have beaten Rafa here. We will never know now though!

[lags72]

Fairly convinced Fed would have beaten Rafa here. We will never know now though!

It's true. We shall never know.

But ......personally .... rather than worry myself about whether the Fed would have beaten Rafa, I actually spend a lot more time worrying about why so many younger players (a category which includes almost everyone on the main Tour, given that he's now pushing 34....) continue to find Federer so tough a challenge.

I say 'worry' because I've been banging on for ages about the absence of fresh blood making the big breakthroughs that can interest us into the next generation ; but it just doesn't seem to be happening. Or very slowly, if at all.

And I'm not just talking about very young players who will - perhaps understandably - have major trouble with Fed largely because of the name alone. Even the 'old' - but still significantly younger than Fed - top players have had bakery products doled out very recently (notably, Murray, Berdych....). Against the current undisputed World No.1, Federer is 4-2 ahead over the course of 2014 & 2015 to date.

Back in 2013, I was predicting (dare I say, almost calling for, even) Federer's retirement within 12 months. And scoffing at the very notion that he could possibly show up at the Rio Olympics.

How come he is still there at Number Two    And very comfortably so ........

[Jahu]

So once again, up to Andy to make this a good tournament and beat Djoko to the final.

While I dont mind Rao beating Fed, I think only Fed can give us a good match with Andy, so comeon Andy

[LuvSports!]

Only watched the last few games but from what I read, he had 2 MPs on his serve during the second set tiebreak but blew them and so lost the second set and then lost the match in three sets! What's Rafa doing these days? In the past he's so clutch and would serve an ace to close the match. Right now, he panic at crucial moments, when serving for the set or the match, just like his match vs Simon earlier on.  

Reading the stats, Rafa had more BPs than Raonic, he served well too, so he's not playing badly and even playing better than Raonic, yet he lost it when he could have won in straight sets!  I'm disappointed with the way he lost it, it's not like he's being outplayed, he just couldn't do it when approaching the finishing line, and that's so disappointing!  Where's that clutch Rafa that we used to see, what happened to his confidence??  

When Rafa's mental strength is gone, he would have a hard time winning tight matches.  It's surprisng how a 14 time slam winner has such low confidence, when is he going to beat a top ten player?  He's thinking too much when serving, hence all the TVs called out on him.  He's not serving badly, why couldn't he serve an ace to finish the job? Raonic is not Novak, why worry so much when serving?  The game where he lost his serve, clearly he's thinking too much, and  not confident enough to serve an ace or two. Disappointing end to a winnable match for Rafa!!

The mp's thing isn't true. The first mp was brilliant from Rao. Big serve, amazing get from rafa bouncing on the baseline... Rao smashes a 129mph smash for a winner on the line! Guts! Raonic had a heck of a lot of nerve in that TB.

[LuvSports!]

Raonic biggest balls in Canada. If he can beat Fed aswell... then he really will be confident of backing it up in the slams.

Yeah so big they didnt even broadcast the game .. we had Cricket instead

You crazy canucks are crazy about cricket! You're the best in the world at it! Of course they would show it.

[LuvSports!]

To each his own, of likes and dislikes. There is room for all styles. Uniqueness allows identity of a player. If all Tennis was played the same way, it would be very robotic and lack the human aspect.

Federer lost Seppi in a slam, this is just a MS1000. Federer lost to Canas, two in a row, Simon, Karlovic and many others. But he still plays.

Ferrer lost to Tomic and Tomic withdrew. Reminds me of Fognini at RG beating Montanes and then withdrawing v Djokovic.

Nadal has won quite a few in his time, as Duggie would say, Father Time waits for no one. You play, leave your mark, and slowly walk into the sunset.

Somewhere in the back of my mind, I think Borg walked away when he could at his peak, after losing the motivation, and he was at peace with himself.

Nadal has played a very good clay swing so far. Give him a break, BLB/Hn. He does not need to be put under a microscope for specimen analysis.

Didn't they also say, "teach me how to Duggie, teach me, teach me how to Duggie."

[Belovedluckyboy]

This court also favors Raonic, as he's tall enough to get to those topspin balls of Rafa. The ball bounced high so it's slowed down and Raonic would have the time to get into position. I do feel that if Rafa got past Raonic, he would go on to beat Fed in the SF, as he would be way more confident after the QF win. Look, Rafa wasn't playing badly, it's just that he faltered at crucial moments. Fed is a familiar foe, and Rafa has the game plan to beat Fed. Fed net rushing? Rafa would pass him with his passing shots; IW is not a fast HC, so the edge goes to Rafa. Of course we can argue till the cows come home and still won't agree on this so its no point talking about it now.

Let's talk about Novak vs Andy and Fed vs Raonic which I think it's more relevant. I think Fed would beat Raonic, I don't think Raonic has the legs now to chase after balls after the 3 hour QF match. Andy vs Novak - if Andy plays consistently well, he can beat Novak. The problem with Andy is, he can play well against anyone, but when it comes to playing Novak, he somehow falters even when in a winning position. I'm quite disappointed about this, especially his Shanghai 2012 final, and this recent AO final.

[Belovedluckyboy]

lags, you have to factor in Rafa not being 'full time' in 2014. So far, it's only Rafa who really gives Fed problems, practically on all surfaces (even indoors recently). Once Rafa is not there, Fed can beat anyone. The same could be said of Rafa, a healthy Rafa in 2013 is also hard to beat, and only Novak could trouble him. So, basically Fed and Rafa are difficult to beat, and it takes great efforts to beat them. Even now when Rafa is just back from injury/illness, he's also not easy to overcome, Roanic had to play very well to stay with Rafa and finally beat him. Klizan too, at Beijing and Coric at Basel.

Talking about Berdych, he was bageled first by Novak at Beijing last year, then by Murray at AO this year and now by Fed at IW. I think Rafa when back to his best may also bagel Berdych on clay!

[LuvSports!]

Did Banana berd brain bagel rafa at Aus?

[Belovedluckyboy]

Yes he did, but that Rafa was just back on tour after his injury break, in fact Rafa had already bageled Berydch twice, both time on clay, once at MC 2007 and once at DC final in 2009.

[CaledonianCraig]

My predictions for today are Djokovic to beat Murray. I still await that confidence-boosting win against the best player in the world and just think Andy is not quite there yet. Djoko in three. Federer to beat Raonic in straight sets. Even if Milos had won in double quick time V Rafa and came into this mstch my prediction would have been the same. Roger is playing to a decent enough level whilst Raonic big wins are far more sporadic.

[Silver]

I agree laverfan. It is just that some of the posts liking Raonic tonight is not all if any to do with his style but more to do with the ramifications of his win in terms of the semis.

What on earth has gotten into you? No offence intended, but you are staggeringly bitter about this win. Yes, you may not like Raonic or his game, and it may not mean much in the long-term, but you should give credit where it's due.

Incidentally, I don't mind Raonic because his attitude is good. He's dull to watch, but he's worked hard on his weaknesses in the off-season, and continues to try and improve. He'll never be a sparkling, creative player who can rally from the back and create the angles, but he's accentuated his strengths and worked on improving other departments - something to admire in that. Nishikori is much the same, and it seems that Dimitrov is the one being left behind in this regard.

But ......personally .... rather than worry myself about whether the Fed would have beaten Rafa, I actually spend a lot more time worrying about why so many younger players (a category which includes almost everyone on the main Tour, given that he's now pushing 34....) continue to find Federer so tough a challenge.

Couple of reasons really, as I see it...the first one being that despite his elder statesman status, he's still playing great tennis. Hard to deny that, and the rankings don't lie. He is far more susceptible in the slams these days, but when he works his way into a tournament he's always tough to beat. I think that mentally and tactically he's improved in recent years.

And of course, Federer is an absolute pain in the arse to play against. He has massive variety, and - crucially - the willingness to demonstrate it if needs be. I seem to remember some players in the past commenting on how it's torturous to play him because he could do anything at any time. Because players like him (Haas, for example) are becoming increasingly rare on tour, playing him is still a novelty to others who are more used to a one-paced game. That's not intended as a knock at other players, it's just that Federer changes things up so much because he has to...in the face of the quality back-court play of others. So he's an unusual player to face, even now after so many years on tour.

Novak probably finds him harder to break down than other players for this reason. His stock game can beat the rest of the tour, but unless Federer has an off-day, Novak is pushed out of his comfort zone more than against other players. That being said...Djokovic is still the man, and #1 for a very good reason. He is a better player than Federer these days, but the match-up doesn't really suit him as much as others. It'd be interesting to hear socal/HM/slasher weigh in on this?

Edit: Holy hell, sorry for the essay chaps.

[CaledonianCraig]

Silver read back the posts (many in the last year or two) from this forum alone and you will find almost all disparaging about Raonic and his style and all serve dominant game and little else. Not much love at all.

Sure it was a great win for him but was on a surface he enjoys and Rafa less so and it cant be pretended that Rafa is back to his best when he plainly isn't. Credit to Raonic for the win but he was also on brink of defeat against a not at his best Rafa.

Right so why all the love suddenly for some on here last night toward Raonic? Simple. Federer fans becoming Raonic fans for the evening and trying (but failing) to mask their glee at a Rafa defeat and trying to paint it as admiration for Raonic. Mark my words the disdain of Milos shall return tonight in force. I wonder why?

Sure I have watched tennis matches inwardly wanting a danger to Murray to lose to avoid a match up later but I certainly would not go to the lengths of making it patently obvious by posting over the top false support on a forum for that player. Just wrong in my opinion.

Finally, as for Raonic I would say there is a very good chance he will one day win a slam in perhaps four or five years time once the very best returners have gone but he must develop a far better return game for me.

[laverfan]

And incidentally also to add to Borg's lack of motivation when he retired he was in the midst of an acrimonious divorce !!!! It wasn't all about his tennis

You want to talk about divorces, think about Pancho and his ~six wives. Rita Agassi being one of them. He still played till 41+ was causing more pain for young players. Federer will also end up in the same category.

[Belovedluckyboy]

But isn't it strange that Rafa fared well vs varieities players like Fed, Haas and Stepanek? In fact Haas and Stepanek have never beaten Rafa. I guess it's also due to Rafa playing differently from players like Novak or Murray with the way he strikes the ball, making iit difficult for most players to cope. Fed wins with his varieities but Rafa wins with his unique ball striking.

I like Haas and Stepanek's varieties too, and I feel that only the trio of Rafa, Novak and Andy could play with some varieities among their generation; Tsonga maybe, but others not so much. The next and next next generation? Still waiting for them to fully mature, too soon to form any conclusion, but I like Nishikori the most.

[bogbrush]

Federer owns the following generation because, quite simply, they never play against anyone with the range of options he uses. At least slightly older players got to see a few players of variety but the 18-24 year olds have grown up just ball bashing.

The damage he would be eligible to do to the veterans tour in 16 months or so is ridiculous. I live in hope he'll stick around beyond Rio, we might go decades before seeing his like again.

[laverfan]

Del Potro plays very similarly to Raonic. Give Raonic a chance!

Players improve every day. Even Nadal found solutions to the 2011 Djokovic. Murray v Young if anyone wants to talk about unexpected losses, or Djokovic v Karlovic.

At this rate, I can throw the Top 10 under the bus, for every loss.

The expectation that the current Top 4 are invincible, is fallacious, always has been and always will be.

Nadal's preference for Clay is obvious, he did much better in the Golden Swing than on HC.  Because Nadal losses are so few and far in between, they seem to be watershed events, at least for players beating him. Dodig anyone?

Federer fans should celebrate his victories, rather than his rivals' losses. Federer has two tough matches, not easy.

Can Murray win one here, too, adding to the list of upsets at IW 2015?

[Guest]

If Raonic had a half decent BH the guy would be utterly destructive!

I don't mind the big serve or big FH. The only thing that irks me sometimes with Raonic he reminds me a bit of Verdasco, extremely fussy with conditions in a match and anything can come along and mentally destabilise him.

[Haddie-nuff]

Silver read back the posts (many in the last year or two) from this forum alone and you will find almost all disparaging about Raonic and his style and all serve dominant game and little else. Not much love at all.

Sure it was a great win for him but was on a surface he enjoys and Rafa less so and it cant be pretended that Rafa is back to his best when he plainly isn't. Credit to Raonic for the win but he was also on brink of defeat against a not at his best Rafa.

Right so why all the love suddenly for some on here last night toward Raonic? Simple. Federer fans becoming Raonic fans for the evening and trying (but failing) to mask their glee at a Rafa defeat and trying to paint it as admiration for Raonic. Mark my words the disdain of Milos shall return tonight in force. I wonder why?

Sure I have watched tennis matches inwardly wanting a danger to Murray to lose to avoid a match up later but I certainly would not go to the lengths of making it patently obvious by posting over the top false support on a forum for that player. Just wrong in my opinion.

Finally, as for Raonic I would say there is a very good chance he will one day win a slam in perhaps four or five years time once the very best returners have gone but he must develop a far better return game for me.

[Haddie-nuff]

And  incidentally also to add to Borg's lack of motivation when he retired he was in the midst of an acrimonious divorce !!!! It wasn't all about his tennis

You want to talk about divorces, think about Pancho and his ~six wives. Rita Agassi being one of them. He still played till 41+ was causing more pain for young players. Federer will also end up in the same category.

[bogbrush]

Indian Wells surface is bad for Nadal? Is that a joke? Trampoline bounces and slow surfaces are his dream.

Good display of bitterness.

[laverfan]

And  incidentally also to add to Borg's lack of motivation when he retired he was in the midst of an acrimonious divorce !!!! It wasn't all about his tennis

You want to talk about divorces, think about Pancho and his ~six wives. Rita Agassi being one of them. He still played till 41+ was causing more pain for young players. Federer will also end up in the same category.

Two parts...

1. Pancho's women did not stop him from playing Tennis. Borg's personal life may have been a distraction, but not necessarily the key factor in his leaving the Tennis scene.

2. Federer (who does not have more than one spouse), will be the one who was causing more pain for young players. like Pancho was.

[laverfan]

@BB... The net clearances vs Raonic were fairly high. Watching the Young v Nadal match, it was relatively flat. The countermeasure to windy conditions is larger net clearances, but Raonic was hammering his FH and serves.

[Haddie-nuff]

And  incidentally also to add to Borg's lack of motivation when he retired he was in the midst of an acrimonious divorce !!!! It wasn't all about his tennis

You want to talk about divorces, think about Pancho and his ~six wives. Rita Agassi being one of them. He still played till 41+ was causing more pain for young players. Federer will also end up in the same category.

Two parts...

1. Pancho's women did not stop him from playing Tennis. Borg's personal life may have been a distraction, but not necessarily the key factor in his leaving the Tennis scene.

2. Federer (who does not have more than one spouse), will be the one who was causing more pain for young players. like


Pancho was.

So what ??? I cant see why you used Borg as an example in your lecture over comments made about Nadal. I put your comment about Borg into perspective now we are comparing Borg to Pancho.. F...get it

[Belovedluckyboy]

Actually it's not only Fed owning the next generation players, ie those below 24 yo, the trio of Rafa, Novak and Murray are owning them too. Fed is unique but Rafa is too. Novak and Murray are also special In their own ways, and that's why Fed couldn't own them the way he own others! The big four era is special, as they collectively ruled the tennis world for so long! I've counted, they have collectively won 41 slams, ie 10 years worth of slams, and 79 Masters; should they win this IW and Miami, that means they've won 81 Masters and that's 9 years worth of Masters (there're 9 Masters a year). It's unbelievable how dominant they are, leaving very little for others to win!

[socal1976]

I agree laverfan. It is just that some of the posts liking Raonic tonight is not all if any to do with his style but more to do with the ramifications of his win in terms of the semis.

What on earth has gotten into you? No offence intended, but you are staggeringly bitter about this win. Yes, you may not like Raonic or his game, and it may not mean much in the long-term, but you should give credit where it's due.

Incidentally, I don't mind Raonic because his attitude is good. He's dull to watch, but he's worked hard on his weaknesses in the off-season, and continues to try and improve. He'll never be a sparkling, creative player who can rally from the back and create the angles, but he's accentuated his strengths and worked on improving other departments - something to admire in that. Nishikori is much the same, and it seems that Dimitrov is the one being left behind in this regard.

But ......personally .... rather than worry myself about whether the Fed would have beaten Rafa, I actually spend a lot more time worrying about why so many younger players (a category which includes almost everyone on the main Tour, given that he's now pushing 34....) continue to find Federer so tough a challenge.

Couple of reasons really, as I see it...the first one being that despite his elder statesman status, he's still playing great tennis. Hard to deny that, and the rankings don't lie. He is far more susceptible in the slams these days, but when he works his way into a tournament he's always tough to beat. I think that mentally and tactically he's improved in recent years.

And of course, Federer is an absolute pain in the arse to play against. He has massive variety, and - crucially - the willingness to demonstrate it if needs be. I seem to remember some players in the past commenting on how it's torturous to play him because he could do anything at any time. Because players like him (Haas, for example) are becoming increasingly rare on tour, playing him is still a novelty to others who are more used to a one-paced game. That's not intended as a knock at other players, it's just that Federer changes things up so much because he has to...in the face of the quality back-court play of others. So he's an unusual player to face, even now after so many years on tour.

Novak probably finds him harder to break down than other players for this reason. His stock game can beat the rest of the tour, but unless Federer has an off-day, Novak is pushed out of his comfort zone more than against other players. That being said...Djokovic is still the man, and #1 for a very good reason. He is a better player than Federer these days, but the match-up doesn't really suit him as much as others. It'd be interesting to hear socal/HM/slasher weigh in on this?

Edit: Holy hell, sorry for the essay chaps.

I think the fact that Federer plays differently than everyone else on tour is a big part of it. You don't get a guy who uses the slice, mixes it up on serves, and takes it so early on tour. And of course Federer is just an exceptional player. I think his slice backhand and the variety on his serve gives Nole a lot of problems. But Novak has won most of the really big matches the two have had last couple of years. WTF and Wimbeldon being the two I am thinking of. Plus of course Roger moves in more than other players putting you under a lot of pressure.

Personally, I wouldn't predict a Roger v. Novak final very comfortably because both semis will be very tough. Murray has looked good and has to be hungry to break his streak against Novak. And Raonic can beat Fed if he plays the way he did against Nadal. But I think Fed will hold all his service games and do enough to get a break or two and take out Milos. If Fed and Novak play I would favor Novak on this surface.

[socal1976]

This loss by Nadal was very strange. Frankly I thought Nadal dominated the first two sets and was very, very unlucky to not win in two tight sets. If anything I was very impressed by how well Nadal played in the first two sets and how Milos stole this match. Not that he didn't deserve it, I thought Nadal was hitting some great shots and moving beautifully in the first couple of games. He had Milos in trouble in a number of service games but just couldn't breakthrough. After losing the second set while in my mind outplaying him things got easier for Milos and Nadal tensed up in the third set. You could almost see how losing that epic tiebreaker in a match that he felt should have been over in set two became such a dogfight. One of the best three set matches I have seen in awhile. People may use this as more evidence of how bad Nadal's form has been but I really was liking how he played in the first two sets and think he was very unfortunate to lose. Reminds of a loss in the semis Novak had to Isner a couple of years ago where Novak was dominating the first two sets and lost a super tight second set he should of one and then Isner got the third set as well after early on being on the ropes.

[temporary21]

Silver read back the posts (many in the last year or two) from this forum alone and you will find almost all disparaging about Raonic and his style and all serve dominant game and little else. Not much love at all.

Sure it was a great win for him but was on a surface he enjoys and Rafa less so and it cant be pretended that Rafa is back to his best when he plainly isn't. Credit to Raonic for the win but he was also on brink of defeat against a not at his best Rafa.

Right so why all the love suddenly for some on here last night toward Raonic? Simple. Federer fans becoming Raonic fans for the evening and trying (but failing) to mask their glee at a Rafa defeat and trying to paint it as admiration for Raonic. Mark my words the disdain of Milos shall return tonight in force. I wonder why?

Sure I have watched tennis matches inwardly wanting a danger to Murray to lose to avoid a match up later but I certainly would not go to the lengths of making it patently obvious by posting over the top false support on a forum for that player. Just wrong in my opinion.

Finally, as for Raonic I would say there is a very good chance he will one day win a slam in perhaps four or five years time once the very best returners have gone but he must develop a far better return game for me.

I must agree here. Theres far too much glee in a certain player losing, than respect for a player winning. Enjoying a match because someone lost is a sad and pessimistic way to watch sport, that leads only to bitterness, especially if its only to wind people up.

[temporary21]

Also theres WAY to much reading into surface advantage. A high bouncing court is good for Nadal, but its also good for Raonic, who gets more kick, and more time to wind up his long forehand. I think its time we all got over this and move on, because I tell you one thing, Nadal has already moved past this and prepping to improve in the next one, its what makes him such a successful person.

[summerblues]

Federer will also end up in the same category.

six wives?

[summerblues]

I must agree here. Theres far too much glee in a certain player losing, than respect for a player winning.

I must disagree here. Rooting for someone to lose is just as fine as rooting for someone to win.

[temporary21]

Wanting someone to lose is born out of hate and bitterness. Wanting someone to win is out of respect

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