The Indian Wells Masters 1000 Thread

[temporary21]

First topic message reminder :

Figured that masters 1000 events deserve their own threads and as such here is your place for all things Indian Wells.

[Incrediblexman]

It's deeply frustrating when Federer has these mental lapses. At the end of the day you have to say Djokovic and Nadal are better competitors than the Swiss.

[Haddie-nuff]

You've missed the convo Hm was gonna go to bed for work during the third set but stayed up. In any I also agree hm should get some deserved rest

Why bother to explain it temp a would suffice

[Jahu]

You've missed the convo Hm was gonna go to bed for work during the third set but stayed up. In any I also agree hm should get some deserved rest

Why bother to explain it temp a would suffice

Don't tell others what to explain now, I bet you knew tempo will explain it to me

[HM Murdock]

It's deeply frustrating when Federer has these mental lapses. At the end of the day you have to say Djokovic and Nadal are better competitors than the Swiss.

No, they're just younger.

They'll be having more lapses when they're 33 too.

[Haddie-nuff]

There should be a hole for that somewhere... try stuffing it

[Jahu]

There should be a hole for that somewhere... try stuffing it

Yeah 'm sure you are an expert on stuffing holes.

[temporary21]

Then maybe lay off it. You can only rib people soo much, even in jest

[Incrediblexman]

It's deeply frustrating when Federer has these mental lapses. At the end of the day you have to say Djokovic and Nadal are better competitors than the Swiss.

No, they're just younger.

They'll be having more lapses when they're 33 too.

Nah look at the close matches that Federer couldn't squeeze through against the above two when he wasn't past his prime. There was AO Final 2009, FO Final 2006 and 2011, US Open Semi 2010 and 2011 amongst others.

[Jahu]

Tempo, at least im not offering forced hole filling.

Control her

[Jahu]

Is Fed officially in Miami yet?

[Jahu]

Hope Delpo kicks some butt in Miami

[laverfan]

Well played, Djokovic. Federer needs a wild card in Miami.

[Silver]

What? Federer's surely not playing Miami? Silly decision if he does, I'd say.

Anyway, I'm glad Novak won it today - he was by far the better player overall, and although he managed to hang tough very well, Federer just didn't quite have it today. That second set was daylight robbery. When Nole upped his level in that final set and got the break for 4-2, I think Fed knew his goose was cooked.

Fantastic play by Novak throughout, massive mental lapse in the TB aside. He's rampant favourite for Miami.

[LuvSports!]

It's deeply frustrating when Federer has these mental lapses. At the end of the day you have to say Djokovic and Nadal are better competitors than the Swiss.

From a set and a break down he came back to win the 2nd set and Djoko seemed to show mental weakness.
Feds was spent in that 3rd set, he clearly hit the wall and could go no further. How is that not being as good a competitor?

Credit to djoko for his consistency and he deffo deserved it today. On this court he is supreme.

[temporary21]

It's hard to stay strong when you're oppoenrnt keeps getting back up from being knocked down and keeps pushing you. They're all great competitors but Novak bounces back just a bit harder

[LuvSports!]

He's not playing Miami.

[It Must Be Love]

18/30 service games in Halep Jankovic were breaks.

[socal1976]

I think Federer since his AO defeat has been the second most in form guy on tour, winning in Dubai, and then getting to the final of this huge tournament. He pushed Novak, I think he beats anyone not named Nadal or Djokovic with how Novak has played. Despite Roger's recent victories, Novak has won most of the big matches against the other recently. Winning at the WTF, wimbeldon and here in the final today.

[socal1976]

As for Djokovic he really has to find away to maintain the level he had in the first set and half. He may be the streakiest 8 or more slam winner mentally I have ever seen. Djokovic should have won this easily in two sets. But he has these bizarre periods of loss of focus like the double faults he threw in at the end of the second set. His serve is very strong right now, stronger than I have ever seen it and he is continuing to cement his position as the best returner in the world getting Fed 4 times in three sets. He was untouchable in the first set and half, similar to what he did to Nadal the last time they played at MC, but again he goes through these mental walkabouts usually involving a string of bad errors in his service games often when he is in an advantageous position in the point.

[Belovedluckyboy]

Djokovic looks unbeatable on this court, I think at Miami too. He has now won 4 IW and 4 Miami titles, if he's going to play top class tennis for another four or five years, I won't be surprised that he may end up with 8 or 9 titles each at IW and Miami. This court at IW suits his game and he practically could get every ball back, Goodness, he may dominate from AO to Miami at least, for the rest of his career! He winning 7 or 8 AOs is not impossible.

[slashermcguirk]

great win for Novak in a very entertaining match. This rivalry with Federer continues to amaze, it is definitely the hardest match up to predict a winner. I thought the match was of a very high quality and Federer is still playing some excellent tennis.

Novak showed great resilience after some very strange double faulting in the tie break. It was great to see him bounce back, rather like in the Wimbledon final. I think this win against Federer was important for the months ahead, it really tested his resolve and he came through well in the deciding set.

It will be interesting to see how Murray reacts in Miami, I still feel he is playing well but he is just a bit too passive at key stages in the big matches.

Congrats to Djokovic on 50 ATP titles, a fantastic achievement and he is really building a strong legacy now. He is now very close to matching Nadal for weeks at world number one. If he can finish this year number one again and capture that elusive French open, he will really start making his way into the all time greats conversation. He is already very close in my opinion.

[HM Murdock]

I know I posted something similar after Dubai, but Federer again spoke well of Novak and their rivalry this week:

"I have seen the rise of him, you know, as he's gotten fitter and more match tough, mentally tougher, became one of the best movers we have in the game.  It's been nice seeing him do that, you know, and improve as you move along. Sometimes I wonder if everybody's willing to improve as much as Novak did.  
It's been interesting to see him figure his game out, and I'm happy I can still hang with him.  I must be quite honest, because he's in his absolute prime right now, and I enjoy the challenge of him.  I hope he enjoys my challenge.
So we will see tomorrow, but I think it's a very dynamic rivalry we have.  Great movement.  I don't think we need to change our games very much when we play each other.  We can just go out there and play our game, which I think is quite cool also for fans and for ourselves, which is interesting."

I have to agree about the rivalry. Definitely my favourite match up at present. Two top notch players who are good enough to force the other to their best tennis, with styles that allow the other to play their best tennis.

Their matches are decided partly by surface but mainly by who is the best on a given day. There's no killer dynamic in the match up that swings it strongly in favour of one or the other.

[HM Murdock]

Djokovic looks unbeatable on this court, I think at Miami too.  He has now won 4 IW and 4 Miami titles, if he's going to play top class tennis for another four or five years, I won't be surprised that he may end up with 8 or 9 titles each at IW and Miami. This court at IW suits his game and he practically could get every ball back,  Goodness, he may dominate from AO to Miami at least, for the rest of his career!  He winning 7 or 8 AOs is not impossible.

It all depends on his movement.

If he's like Federer and can still move well into his 30s, then he has a good chance to really pad his tennis CV.

If his movement deteriorates much, the wins will dry up.

[bogbrush]

It's deeply frustrating when Federer has these mental lapses. At the end of the day you have to say Djokovic and Nadal are better competitors than the Swiss.

From a set and a break down he came back to win the 2nd set and Djoko seemed to show mental weakness.
Feds was spent in that 3rd set, he clearly hit the wall and could go no further. How is that not being as good a competitor?

Credit to djoko for his consistency and he deffo deserved it today. On this court he is supreme.

Exactly. Federer was cooked by the 3rd.

I thought he competed brilliantly and his errors were mainly due to having to press so hard to get Novak out of position. That's Djokovic's greatest asset of all, and one which Federer needs a faster surface to counter.

It was a very high standard match, by far higher than anything else during the week.

[bogbrush]

I think Federer since his AO defeat has been the second most in form guy on tour, winning in Dubai, and then getting to the final of this huge tournament. He pushed Novak, I think he beats anyone not named Nadal or Djokovic with how Novak has played. Despite Roger's recent victories, Novak has won most of the big matches against the other recently. Winning at the WTF, wimbeldon and here in the final today.

I really don't think they walk out at Dubai thinking "ah, this isn't a 1000 I won't bring my best".

I think it's a great match up and they're the top two by a distance at the moment. Surface and form decide the winner, and it's almost always close.

[slashermcguirk]

I am so impressed by just how well Federer is still playing at his age. I really don't see his level now being far below when he was in in his prime. You also have to remember that Novak even though he lost some of the early encounters between the two, he always gave Federer a tough match even before his prime. The big issue was his fitness and stamina in the early days, the talent and shot making was always there.

Obviously Djokovic has upped his game since 2011 (particularly the forehand) but I genuinely don't think Federer's level has dropped much at all. I think stamina is the big issue for Federer now, he still moves incredibly well but cannot sustain it for as long as he used to. However when his game is on right now it is nearly as high as his peak level. Some of the shots he was hitting yesterday were phenomenal and that is why he still brings Novak to the very limit.

I can still see Federer winning one last slam, rather like Sampras did with his final win at the US open. Back to back tough 5 set matches are a big test for him but if he brings his optimum level, he is still more than capable of adding to his slam collection.

The big difference between Djokovic and Federer is stamina, this was an obstacle for Novak in the early years of the rivalry and is now an issue for Federer late in his career. They have both always been amazing shotmakers and both have always played to the highest level. Very little between them when they are both at their very best.

[Born Slippy]

Tend to agree Slasher. Fed's game strikes me as being slightly better now than 7 or 8 years ago. His longevity is incredible. Even his movement has barely diminished. However, he clearly really struggles in the slams particularly with stamina. Given that, I would be surprised if he wins another slam but Wimbledon will clearly be his best chance.

[HM Murdock]

I am so impressed by just how well Federer is still playing at his age. I really don't see his level now being far below when he was in in his prime.

I'd be interested in the views of the Fed watchers on this, but it strikes me that the Federer of today is a different player than the Federer of 8/10 years ago.

I don't mean simply "not as good", I mean the patterns of his play are different. I'd say his serve is better and he's more frequent visitor to the forecourt (my recollection of his prime years is that, for all the imagination in his shots, he was essentially a baseliner. That may be my memory though).

That forehand still seems to have its pop but the timing is off more these days, I suspect due to the feet being a touch slower, causing him to not being fully set to hit shots he previously made.

How close is he to his prime?

Clearly, he's not as good as he was in his mid-20s but, given that his mid-20s incarnation is arguably the best player ever, that's not necessarily as big an issue as some think. He can be 'worse' but still be great.

The main point for me is that he is not the old Federer, playing the old way but not as well. He's a different player.

He's certainly not playing "as well as he ever has" as certain hyperbolic commentators like to declare. But nor is he an ageing shadow of his former self. He's kind of a new entity.

(Slasher - this isn't a direct response to you, it's just some thoughts your comment triggered!)

[Guest82]

I am so impressed by just how well Federer is still playing at his age. I really don't see his level now being far below when he was in in his prime.

I'd be interested in the views of the Fed watchers on this, but it strikes me that the Federer of today is a different player than the Federer of 8/10 years ago.

I don't mean simply "not as good", I mean the patterns of his play are different. I'd say his serve is better and he's more frequent visitor to the forecourt (my recollection of his prime years is that, for all the imagination in his shots, he was essentially a baseliner. That may be my memory though).

That forehand still seems to have its pop but the timing is off more these days, I suspect due to the feet being a touch slower, causing him to not being fully set to hit shots he previously made.

How close is he to his prime?

Clearly, he's not as good as he was in his mid-20s but, given that his mid-20s incarnation is arguably the best player ever, that's not necessarily as big an issue as some think. He can be 'worse' but still be great.

The main point for me is that he is not the old Federer, playing the old way but not as well. He's a different player.

He's certainly not playing "as well as he ever has" as certain hyperbolic commentators like to declare. But nor is he an ageing shadow of his former self. He's kind of a new entity.

(Slasher - this isn't a direct response to you, it's just some thoughts your comment triggered!)

He's maybe 90% of the player he was in his mid-20s. Really the only people he's losing to now are Djokovic and Nadal, both all time greats.

I was wondering if he can win another slam. If Wimbledon or US Open started tomorrow he would, rightfully, be second favourite. I guess he needs someone to take Rafa out (not that unlikely at the moment) and him to have an inspired day mixed with Djokovic having a poor day. Possible.

[Guest]

All of the stuff Federer does now he could do just as well in his mid twenties - he just didn't have to. Federer was so good he didn't have to make any adjustments for anyone, bar Rafa on clay. He used to play his game knowing he'd win. Today, he needs to use everything in his arsenal just to compete with Novak. Do you think Fed would be making suicidal rushes to the net if he wasn't forced to? All of the adjustments that Fed had made have been forced upon him - none of them have been made by choice. It's to his credit that he has the variety to still be able to change things up.

Anyone who thinks Federer is a better player today than he was in 05-06 needs their head examined. I suggest you go back and watch some old videos. It used to be par for the course for Fed to hit stunning winners off both wings in every match in those days. As Wilander said about him at the time: 'He hits the most unbelievable shots in every match of the year' or Lendl: 'Federer hits shots that other players don't even think about'. Yeah, were really seeing that Federer now.

His FH had more pop; it was a point ender from anywhere on the court. Far superior to Novak's FH - yet today the opposite is almost true. His movement was sublime. Never rushed, never lunging, always looked like he had more time on his racquet. His movement today is a shadow of what it used to be. Hence we now longer see what used to be his signature shot - the inside out FH. Fed used to skip around his BH and crush the I/O FH for winners. That's virtually disappeared from his arsenal.

Fed had the best footwork ever seen on a tennis court. He was as fast as Rafa but without appearing so. Today you hit a ball with pace slightly to either side of him and he's lunging and playing that ridiculous sliced FH that he NEVER needed to play before. This is the biggest difference. As Fed himself said, the baseline game is all about movement. If you're not in perfect position to hit a shot you're gonna pay the price.

His BH had more pop too. Look at his matches from '06 and how many BH winners he used to hit. Now it's just a rallying shot. The bigger racquet has made the BH more stable than it was from 2011-13 but prior to that it was a better stroke overall.

If you listen to the crap the morons on Sky sports say, Fed has been getting better and better - yet his results have been getting worse. Losing to the likes of Seppi (really?), Robredo, Cilic at slams. This is the guy who never lost before the semi's at a slam for 6 years and never lost before the quarters for 9 years. Yeah he's definitely a better player than the guy who averaged 5-6 losses a year for four years.

And then of course there is the stamina issue. Fed is gassed after a couple of hours of hard rallying now. He used to be able to go five hours on clay (Rome 2006 anyone?).

The reason Fed is still competitive is really simple. He's the best player ever. Period. That means that even at 33 he's still a damn good player. But to suggest that he's as good as or even better than he used to be in his absolute peak is utter nonsense.

[laverfan]

The racquet change has allowed Federer some additional years, as is the economy of his movement. He is slower, his feet are slower, but he can still dance.

This shows the stark difference between a 2004-2007 and now Federer

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Media/Video-Landing/*/Tennis/Media/Videos/Uploaded/2015/3/22/Indian-Wells-2015-Sunday-Hot-Shot-Federer.aspx

He is stretching and returning, so his defense is better and counters the slower speed of his feet. He can still hit fantastic FHs, but they are rarer. The timing is a bit off, especially on slower courts. Dubai and IW are interesting matches and recent enough for comparison.

[Guest]

It's deeply frustrating when Federer has these mental lapses. At the end of the day you have to say Djokovic and Nadal are better competitors than the Swiss.

The mental lapses are a direct result of physical lapses. The stronger you are physically, and know you can last no matter what's thrown at you, the easier it is to be mentally tough. Federer didn't lose yesterday because of a mental lapse. He was clearly gassed by the third. The footwork was gone. He was suddenly shanking all over the place.

[CAS]

I agree, he's not as good but he's different. His serve is probably a bit better but he isn't quite as fast (he said this himself) and his forehand isn't as consistent as it used to be but can still be devastating. It just shows what level Federer once was if  that most of his rivals of Roddick, Hewitt, Nalbandian, Safin, Davydenko have fallen off dramatically into retirement or down the rankings while Federer is still reaching slam finals and is world number 2 behind a guy who has 6 years on him.

[Guest]

Of course Federer is still an superb player. Certainly a few percentage down from what he used to be. But those few percentages at the top make a colossal difference.

[TheMessi]

What about Djokovic 2007 versus Djokovic 2015?

I see an enormous difference between those 2!

Yet Federer lost to Djoko once in 2007 and even the USO 2007 final could have been a 3 straight sets for Djokovic had he not messed up so many set points, break points and game points...and I believe USO 2007 was faster than IW this year.

[Silver]

How close is he to his prime?

Excellent post. I would tend to agree. It's hard to get an objective viewpoint on this because many fans have an agenda - insisting that Federer is now amazing or close to peak suits fans of other players, while the reverse suits Fed fans.

It's impossible to quantify but I broadly agree with everything you've said.

Federer now:

+ Tactically superior in every way (his 'tennis IQ' is off the charts)
+ Serving is as good as ever, if not better
+ Arguably mentally stronger, now finds ways to win even if the A game isn't there
+ More variety in shot selection
+ Has developed certain shots well over the course of his career (whipped inside-in forehand, etc)
+ Cannier at the net, and more composed there too

Peak Federer:

+ Movement is far better - this is the big one
+ Backhand is far better, slice excepted
+ Most shots are more consistent
+ All shots are more destructive
+ Stamina is clearly superior
+ More belief (debatable)

Even giving the current version as much as I possibly could, 2007 Federer is still ahead - largely due to the difference in physicality. So much of the game today is based off movement, and Federer does struggle a bit when pushed out wide these days. His anticipation, tactics and dedication to fitness are what keep him in contention.

Honestly though, it's almost redundant because I strongly suspect that Federer would have developed into a different player if he'd been contending with Novak and Rafa at a similar age. In HM's post further up, Federer rightly mentioned the incredible evolution of Novak as a player - how he's worked relentlessly on his movement, fitness, shot selection and mentality to become the undisputed best player of the last four years. But Federer should also look in the mirror and realise that he himself has changed his game fairly radically in order to adapt to the changing conditions and the rivals that have overtaken him in recent years. As slasher says, it's a testament to his drive and ability that he's still the clear #2 and hanging with the very best players, even at 33. People gasp over the shots he makes, but his mentality is outstanding and underrated.

Is it that far-fetched to assume that Federer would've developed differently if he'd had Rafa and Novak around right from the start? I don't think so. A trait they all share - but particularly Novak and Roger - is that desire to improve and adapt. It's why I consider Novak to be basically as good as prime Federer and Nadal, and have done for years; if they'd all started together, the slam counts would be very similar. Federer isn't as good as he was at his peak, but he's not far off. If you gave him the movement of his younger years, he'd probably be at his peak now.

HM: Nice comments from Federer there. Sadly, they'll undoubtedly be forgotten in time for the next 'arrogant Swiss' accusation!

Edit: emancipator's post highlights the movement issue - and how important it is - far better than mine. Good post.

[socal1976]

It's daft that the next event, which follows on immediately, is also a very slow court.

What's the point?

Part of it is that the conditions are a little extreme at both events. IW is in crazy wind zone, and the air is extremely light in the desert a fast court would probably produce very quick points and matches. Miami also is the opposite in terms of very heavy and humid air also a big huge wind problem as the stadium is close to the water. Probably because like most tournaments and broadcasters of 3 set events they want to maximize their broadcast time and the fans bang for the buck. Probably the main reason slower hardcourts are preferred.

[Guest]

Silver, I agree broadly with the post above.

However, if one were to construct a tennis player to compete today, all of the things that you've stated were better in 2007 would be the qualities you'd want. The qualities that are better today are simply adjustments that have been forced on him because he's weaker in the other, more important, areas.

Having said all that, he's still probably the best fast court player in the world!!

[HM Murdock]

What about Djokovic 2007 versus Djokovic 2015?

I see an enormous difference between those 2!

Correct.

Even the difference between Djoko 2011 and Djoko 2015 is pretty big.

2011 was built upon the BHDTL.

That shot is a rare visitor in 2015. But the modern Djoko is augmented with a better serve and some surprising competence in the forecourt.

I'm not sure if I could say which version is better overall... but they are certainly different.

[socal1976]

I think Federer since his AO defeat has been the second most in form guy on tour, winning in Dubai, and then getting to the final of this huge tournament. He pushed Novak, I think he beats anyone not named Nadal or Djokovic with how Novak has played. Despite Roger's recent victories, Novak has won most of the big matches against the other recently. Winning at the WTF, wimbeldon and here in the final today.

I really don't think they walk out at Dubai thinking "ah, this isn't a 1000 I won't bring my best".

I think it's a great match up and they're the top two by a distance at the moment. Surface and form decide the winner, and it's almost always close.

For me it has been the best top matchup really since 2009 or 2010. Stylistically, they bring out a good match and it produces not only close matches but a lot of great shots. Plus I am not enam I am not saying that Novak turned in a clunker because Dubai was worth 500 points, I am sure he would want to beat fed regardless of the points at stake. But I do see ups and downs in Novak's focus and he can be streaky with that focus. In recent years in the bigger events Djoko has had the edge albeit it has been close. By no means do I think Novak consciously tried less at Dubai.

[TheMessi]

I'm not sure if I could say which version is better overall... but they are certainly different.

Which version do you mean? Djokovic or Federer...cause it is clear to me Djoko's version is much better now tan in 2007.

[Silver]

Silver, I agree broadly with the post above.

However, if one were to construct a tennis player to compete today, all of the things that you've stated were better in 2007 would be the qualities you'd want. The qualities that are better today are simply adjustments that have been forced on him because he's weaker in the other, more important, areas.

Having said all that, he's still probably the best fast court player in the world!!

Yes, I'd absolutely agree with that. You'd sooner have the raw physical attributes than anything else, and the current version would certainly lose to his 2007 incarnation!

I'd kill to see how current Federer would fare with his old movement and backhand intact though, that would be fascinating.

[HM Murdock]

Is it that far-fetched to assume that Federer would've developed differently if he'd had Rafa and Novak around right from the start? I don't think so. A trait they all share - but particularly Novak and Roger - is that desire to improve and adapt.

A very good point, and a key reason why I'm not keen on "how would peak Fed compare to peak Rafa and Novak" type debates.

I saw an interesting comment from Federer this week (in reference to rivalries and Rafa's emergence):

"In the beginning clearly I tried to fight it, to not accept it that he was my rival, that I did have a rival, because I was playing so well in 2004 and then '05. But very quickly did I realize of course when he beat me the first time in Miami that this wasn't just a fluke.  This was, you know, probably a legend in the making...
...But for me, definitely I had to try to come up with different game plans, maybe practice with more lefties as I went along in my career, and that helped me to improve certain things in my game, for sure"

The players don't exist in isolation. They have to adapt to what they are facing.

[HM Murdock]

I'm not sure if I could say which version is better overall... but they are certainly different.

Which version do you mean? Djokovic or Federer...cause it is clear to me Djoko's version is much better now tan in 2007.

I mean 2011 Djokovic or 2015 Djokovic.

2015 Djokovic is clearly better than 2007 Djokovic.

[Guest]

Silver, I agree broadly with the post above.

However, if one were to construct a tennis player to compete today, all of the things that you've stated were better in 2007 would be the qualities you'd want. The qualities that are better today are simply adjustments that have been forced on him because he's weaker in the other, more important, areas.

Having said all that, he's still probably the best fast court player in the world!!

Yes, I'd absolutely agree with that. You'd sooner have the raw physical attributes than anything else, and the current version would certainly lose to his 2007 incarnation!

I'd kill to see how current Federer would fare with his old movement and backhand intact though, that would be fascinating.

Would love to see 2007 version vs today. I think it'd be a massacre!

[socal1976]

What about Djokovic 2007 versus Djokovic 2015?

I see an enormous difference between those 2!

Yet Federer lost to Djoko once in 2007 and even the USO 2007 final could have been a 3 straight sets for Djokovic had he not messed up so many set points, break points and game points...and I believe USO 2007 was faster than IW this year.

Novak is so much different as a player and a competitor since 2007 it is not even funny, and you are correct he ran Fed and Nadal close that year and got to number 3 in the year round rankings. Really was unlucky and frankly choked his first time against Fed at USO 2007. A couple big points in each of those sets and he wins that match or pushes it to 5. But now he is just much better with the forehand, the serve was good back then but it is so much more varied now. He did go through a huge serve slump in 09 to 10 when he changed his rotation now his serve is better than any point in his career.

[TheMessi]

What about Djokovic 2007 versus Djokovic 2015?

I see an enormous difference between those 2!

Yet Federer lost to Djoko once in 2007 and even the USO 2007 final could have been a 3 straight sets for Djokovic had he not messed up so many set points, break points and game points...and I believe USO 2007 was faster than IW this year.

Novak is so much different as a player and a competitor since 2007 it is not even funny, and you are correct he ran Fed and Nadal close that year and got to number 3 in the year round rankings. Really was unlucky and frankly choked his first time against Fed at USO 2007. A couple big points in each of those sets and he wins that match or pushes it to 5. But now he is just much better with the forehand, the serve was good back then but it is so much more varied now. He did go through a huge serve slump in 09 to 10 when he changed his rotation now his serve is better than any point in his career.

This is why I think it is very "fanboyish" to think Federer 2007 is much better than today's. I actually think Federer 2007 would have been crushed 61 62 by Djokovic yesterday. We could argue that Federer 2009 or 2011 or 12 was better than Federer 2015....but 2007? no way.

[Silver]

This is why I think it is very "fanboyish" to think Federer 2007 is much better than today's. I actually think Federer 2007 would have been crushed 61 62 by Djokovic yesterday. We could argue that Federer 2009 or 2011 or 12 was better than Federer 2015....but 2007? no way.

Brave position to take. Even the most ardent Novak fan would strongly disagree with you on that one, let alone everyone else.

[socal1976]

What about Djokovic 2007 versus Djokovic 2015?

I see an enormous difference between those 2!

Yet Federer lost to Djoko once in 2007 and even the USO 2007 final could have been a 3 straight sets for Djokovic had he not messed up so many set points, break points and game points...and I believe USO 2007 was faster than IW this year.

Novak is so much different as a player and a competitor since 2007 it is not even funny, and you are correct he ran Fed and Nadal close that year and got to number 3 in the year round rankings. Really was unlucky and frankly choked his first time against Fed at USO 2007. A couple big points in each of those sets and he wins that match or pushes it to 5. But now he is just much better with the forehand, the serve was good back then but it is so much more varied now. He did go through a huge serve slump in 09 to 10 when he changed his rotation now his serve is better than any point in his career.

This is why I think it is very "fanboyish" to think Federer 2007 is much better than today's. I actually think Federer 2007 would have been crushed 61 62 by Djokovic yesterday. We could argue that Federer 2009 or 2011 or 12 was better than Federer 2015....but 2007? no way.

I think the whole Federer has fallen completely off his game since 07 is specious. I think it has a lot to do with him getting tougher competition from Nadal on a fast court and having the pack as well as represented mainly by Djokovic start to close the distance. Lets remember the tour isn't just Federer, guys like Seppi, Lopez, Ferrer showing that at the same age they are playing some of their best tennis. Lets look at Haas who was even older and had a buttload of injuries. The top 100 its at the oldest it has ever been. So age can't be as huge a deciding factor as many people would like to make it. Lets remember that since 09 the age excuse has been made over and over for Federer. Every loss was because he was over the hill and young guys were just benefitting from age. Well Djokovic is as old as Fed was in 09, as a Novak fan should I claim every Djokovic loss to his age or should Murray fans at this point do that? It has been six years we have been hearing the fed is just old routine, and frankly in that time frame he has pretty much won a great deal, won a lot of slams, been number 1 and he is still playing great tennis.

[socal1976]

This is why I think it is very "fanboyish" to think Federer 2007 is much better than today's. I actually think Federer 2007 would have been crushed 61 62 by Djokovic yesterday. We could argue that Federer 2009 or 2011 or 12 was better than Federer 2015....but 2007? no way.

Brave position to take. Even the most ardent Novak fan would strongly disagree with you on that one, let alone everyone else.

To be clear I think Fed was better from 07-04 but I don't think the fall off is as drastic over the ensuing years particularly in 09, 10 etc. as people make it. Even today I think it is slim degradation. I don't think enough credit is given to his competition level improving. People have been chalking up every Fed loss since 09 to age and slow conditions, that would be like today blaming Murray and Djoko losses to the fact that they are over the hill.

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