Change of Coaches for Scotland?

I am thinking that Vern Cotter needs a complete overhaul of coaches so that it is "his team" so that means Jonathan Humphreys, Massimo Cuttita and Duncan Hodge need axed and replaced but question is, who could come in as assistant, backs/forwards coach, scrum coach and kicking coach, who was his team at Clermont?

We really need someone passionate in one of these positions, like Shaun Edwards at Wales, he has some bark on him but can also get over excited.

Once he has his "own team" then hopefully results follow and Vern and co get a good few years in job because we do need consistency, we have had coaches for 2yr and then sack them yet nothing improves.

Anyway, bring on Ireland and LESS KICKING BALL because that was a stupid tactic used against England.

Scottish Shaun wrote:I am thinking that Vern Cotter needs a complete overhaul of coaches so that it is "his team" so that means Jonathan Humphreys, Massimo Cuttita and Duncan Hodge need axed and replaced but question is, who could come in as assistant, backs/forwards coach, scrum coach and kicking coach, who was his team at Clermont?

We really need someone passionate in one of these positions, like Shaun Edwards at Wales, he has some bark on him but can also get over excited.

Once he has his "own team" then hopefully results follow and Vern and co get a good few years in job because we do need consistency, we have had coaches for 2yr and then sack them yet nothing improves.

Anyway, bring on Ireland and LESS KICKING BALL because that was a stupid tactic used against England.

That was a quick change of opinion! Did you even know those were the 3 coaches till I mentioned them just now?

Aye so shut the Frak up!

I'd like to recruit an aussie rules coach for catching the ball in the air - we were better today but still no where near the standard of Ireland and Italy.

Other coaches I don't think is the issue - the issues to me are two things - a lack of a hard edge in the forwards - I guess that was what big Jim was brought in for and captaincy - and apart from bring back sir kellybrows I can't think of a candidate.

Calm down lads please

Scottish Shaun wrote:Aye so shut the Frak up!

Classy

TJ wrote:I'd like to recruit an aussie rules coach for catching the ball in the air - we were better today but still no where near the standard of Ireland and Italy.

Other coaches I don't think is the issue - the issues to me are two things - a lack of a hard edge in the forwards - I guess that was what big Jim was brought in for and captaincy - and apart from bring back sir kellybrows I can't think of a candidate.

An Aussie rules coach would be ideal. Mike pike the ex edinburgh and Canada full back who plays for the Sydney swans would be ideal as he has experience in both codes at the highest level.

We did have an excellent catching and skills coach in mick Byrne but the sru didn't renew his contract. He now has that role with the all blacks!

I do think humphries needs replaced. The forwards tactics have been poor and very under prepared for the 6 nations. There seems to have been no plan b especially against Italy when they mauled us to death. Matt proudfoot the stormers forward coach and ex scotland prop would be high on my list! Also once richie grays contract with South Africa is up they need to bring him back to scotland.

Yep agreed on afl coach for high balls, I think I may have even suggested it on here few weeks ago fife was good under high balls yesterday but overall it's been poor from Scotland this 6N.

Coaching staff wise I would maybe swap cuttita and hodge but Keep humphreys and Taylor for sure.

If it is true that His Verness has been required to use the backroom team that the SRU has given him, then I certainly agree that he should be able to appoint whomever he wants.

The issue of course is that we are very close to the World Cup and so it is difficult to see what kind of appointments he could make - short of the SRU buying his entire former team from Clermont. Not that I would be adverse to that, at all.

I agree that the forwards coaching is the biggest issue - I am deadly serious in that if someone offered Andy Robinson a one year contract to get the forwards kicked into shape, I would applaud that. He shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a team selection meeting, but there is no doubting his ability as a forwards coach - he is and always was excellent.

George Carlin wrote:
I agree that the forwards coaching is the biggest issue - I am deadly serious in that if someone offered Andy Robinson a one year contract to get the forwards kicked into shape, I would applaud that. He shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a team selection meeting, but there is no doubting his ability as a forwards coach - he is and always was excellent.

One of the very best toward coaches. One of the very worst head coaches.

Regardless of who the coaches are we need to stop the tactic of kicking the ball away constantly, infuriating and ridiculous. Clearly presented England with numerous chances yesterday due to kicking the ball to them at will, fortunately despite our defensive shape being compromised massively by the loss of Dunbar, England cocked up most of their chances. We looked pretty good when we had the ball so for goodness sake keep it as much as we possibly can.

Scotland gave a hugely improved performance yesterday as mentioned by the coach afterwards. They are moving in the right direction.

Scotland actually fronted up very well yesterday and gave nothing away in the set piece, which was not at all what was predicted. It is very easy to keep blaming the coaches for players playing poorly. They did not send them out against Italy and tell them to let the Italians maul them all over the park!

One of the good things about yesterday is that they did seem to have learnt a few things from that game. They dealt with the English maul, which is way stronger than the Italian one, very well. Ewan Murray had a good game as well and got the better of Marler. Our scrum only started creaking a bit once Cross came on.

This coaching team is in place till after the WC like it or not and we need to stop harking on about them. What will happen after that will largely depend on whether VC stays on, which I very much hope he does. Despite the results, Italy in particular, things are actually so much better than the last few years. The fact remains that we are at best the 5th best side in the 6N currently and the other teams are all strong and it is not going to be easy to get on top of any of them within this WC cycle. I am definitely more hopeful though over the next 4 years and getting the right coaching team in place for that will be crucial.

Every 6 nations team will always find that little bit extra when playing against the English, it's a fact of life. Personally I think this is an argument everyone has been having since 1999. Scotland players are largely crap and over rated. It doesn't matter what coach you have, these players just can't deliver against crack teams like Ireland, Wales, France and England who have very small margins between them. In the 6 nations at the moment we have 4 teams who win and lose games at the discretion of a referees decision and 2 weak teams who make up the numbers.

Italy and Scotland REALLY need to increase the numbers of their professional teams. ANY half decent Welsh or Irish player is given full oppertunity to develop a professional career, while in Italy and Scotland due to the limited number of teams and contracts players just aren't given as much chance.

Take for example the U20's international teams, look at the Welsh and Irish teams going back over the last few 6 nations and World Cups, most of the Irish and Welsh players go on to become professionals and get oppertunities at regional and provincial level and a chance to develop. Can you honestly say the same is true for Italy and Scotland? Just because a player might not be world class at 19 doesn't mean he won't be that way at 26.

A great example of this is when Wales lost 92-0 to New Zealand in the U20 world cup in 2011. The 2 best Welsh players on the field were Gareth Anscombe and Rhys Llewellyn who were playing for New Zealand, yet despite just a hammering, a lot of those same Welsh players have had the chance to go on and develop as a professional.

look at the team:
Wales U20: Liam Williams (Llanelli); Iolo Evans (Scarlets / Llanelli) Owen Williams (Blues / Cardiff), Lewis Robling (Dragons / Newport), Dale Ford (Scarlets / Llanelli); Steve Shingler (London Irish), Lewis Jones (Blues / Pontypridd); Rhodri Jones (Scarlets / Llanelli), Kirby Myhill (Scarlets / Llanelli), WillGriff John (Blues/ Pontypridd), Lloyd Peers (capt, Ospreys/ Bridgend), Cory Hill (Blues / Pontypridd), Edward Siggery (Pontypridd), Thomas Young (Blues / Cardiff), Owen Sheppeard (Blues / Pontypridd).

Replacements: Jamie Sollis (Dragons / Cross Keys), WillTaylor (Ospreys / Swansea), Macauley Cook (Blues / Cardiff), Luke Hamilton (Blues / Glamorgan), Jonathan Evans (Dragons / Newport), Matthew Morgan (Ospreys / Swansea), Ross Jones (Ospreys / Bridgend)

Most of those names are now familiar reading for Welsh people reading this post, the vast majority professionals at their regions. Compare that with the Scotland squad at the same U20 world cup, very few of the Scottish names have made it as professionals from that time.

Shifty wrote:Every 6 nations team will always find that little bit extra when playing against the English, it's a fact of life.  Personally I think this is an argument everyone has been having since 1999.  Scotland players are largely crap and over rated.  It doesn't matter what coach you have, these players just can't deliver against crack teams like Ireland, Wales, France and England who have very small margins between them.  In the 6 nations at the moment we have 4 teams who win and lose games at the discretion of a referees decision and 2 weak teams who make up the numbers.

Italy and Scotland REALLY need to increase the numbers of their professional teams.  ANY half decent Welsh or Irish player is given full oppertunity to develop a professional career, while in Italy and Scotland due to the limited number of teams and contracts  players just aren't given as much chance.  

Take for example the U20's international teams, look at the Welsh and Irish teams going back over the last few 6 nations and World Cups, most of the Irish and Welsh players go on to become professionals and get oppertunities at regional and provincial level and a chance to develop.  Can you honestly say the same is true for Italy and Scotland?  Just because a player might not be world class at 19 doesn't mean he won't be that way at 26.  

A great example of this is when Wales lost 92-0 to New Zealand in the U20 world cup in 2011.  The 2 best Welsh players on the field were Gareth Anscombe and Rhys Llewellyn who were playing for New Zealand, yet despite just a hammering, a lot of those same Welsh players have had the chance to go on and develop as a professional.  

look at the team:
Wales U20: Liam Williams (Llanelli); Iolo Evans (Scarlets / Llanelli) Owen Williams (Blues / Cardiff), Lewis Robling (Dragons / Newport), Dale Ford (Scarlets / Llanelli); Steve Shingler (London Irish), Lewis Jones (Blues / Pontypridd); Rhodri Jones (Scarlets / Llanelli), Kirby Myhill (Scarlets / Llanelli), WillGriff John (Blues/ Pontypridd), Lloyd Peers (capt, Ospreys/ Bridgend), Cory Hill (Blues / Pontypridd), Edward Siggery (Pontypridd), Thomas Young (Blues / Cardiff), Owen Sheppeard (Blues / Pontypridd).

Replacements: Jamie Sollis (Dragons / Cross Keys), WillTaylor (Ospreys / Swansea), Macauley Cook (Blues / Cardiff), Luke Hamilton (Blues / Glamorgan), Jonathan Evans (Dragons / Newport), Matthew Morgan (Ospreys / Swansea), Ross Jones (Ospreys / Bridgend)

Most of those names are now familiar reading for Welsh people reading this post, the vast majority professionals at their regions.  Compare that with the Scotland squad at the same U20 world cup, very few of the Scottish names have made it as professionals from that time.  

In an ideal world we would have 3-4 Pro Teams in Scotland, but the money just isn't there at the moment to create and support a third team, so we just have to get through with the two teams for now. Perhaps once the SRU clear their debt (think it's currently around the £9m mark) then there may be a third team created in the Aberdeen area, which will initially take up the Connacht-type role of developing players and eventually flourishing into top-6 contenders. Apparently, there's sufficient demand in the Aberdeen area for supporting a third Pro Team and Aberdeen Asset Management have said they would support it if they could, so if the SRU can clear the debt in the next 4-5 years we will see where we stand then.

Scottish White Line Fever wrote:

Shifty wrote:Every 6 nations team will always find that little bit extra when playing against the English, it's a fact of life.  Personally I think this is an argument everyone has been having since 1999.  Scotland players are largely crap and over rated.  It doesn't matter what coach you have, these players just can't deliver against crack teams like Ireland, Wales, France and England who have very small margins between them.  In the 6 nations at the moment we have 4 teams who win and lose games at the discretion of a referees decision and 2 weak teams who make up the numbers.

Italy and Scotland REALLY need to increase the numbers of their professional teams.  ANY half decent Welsh or Irish player is given full oppertunity to develop a professional career, while in Italy and Scotland due to the limited number of teams and contracts  players just aren't given as much chance.  

Take for example the U20's international teams, look at the Welsh and Irish teams going back over the last few 6 nations and World Cups, most of the Irish and Welsh players go on to become professionals and get oppertunities at regional and provincial level and a chance to develop.  Can you honestly say the same is true for Italy and Scotland?  Just because a player might not be world class at 19 doesn't mean he won't be that way at 26.  

A great example of this is when Wales lost 92-0 to New Zealand in the U20 world cup in 2011.  The 2 best Welsh players on the field were Gareth Anscombe and Rhys Llewellyn who were playing for New Zealand, yet despite just a hammering, a lot of those same Welsh players have had the chance to go on and develop as a professional.  

look at the team:
Wales U20: Liam Williams (Llanelli); Iolo Evans (Scarlets / Llanelli) Owen Williams (Blues / Cardiff), Lewis Robling (Dragons / Newport), Dale Ford (Scarlets / Llanelli); Steve Shingler (London Irish), Lewis Jones (Blues / Pontypridd); Rhodri Jones (Scarlets / Llanelli), Kirby Myhill (Scarlets / Llanelli), WillGriff John (Blues/ Pontypridd), Lloyd Peers (capt, Ospreys/ Bridgend), Cory Hill (Blues / Pontypridd), Edward Siggery (Pontypridd), Thomas Young (Blues / Cardiff), Owen Sheppeard (Blues / Pontypridd).

Replacements: Jamie Sollis (Dragons / Cross Keys), WillTaylor (Ospreys / Swansea), Macauley Cook (Blues / Cardiff), Luke Hamilton (Blues / Glamorgan), Jonathan Evans (Dragons / Newport), Matthew Morgan (Ospreys / Swansea), Ross Jones (Ospreys / Bridgend)

Most of those names are now familiar reading for Welsh people reading this post, the vast majority professionals at their regions.  Compare that with the Scotland squad at the same U20 world cup, very few of the Scottish names have made it as professionals from that time.  

In an ideal world we would have 3-4 Pro Teams in Scotland, but the money just isn't there at the moment to create and support a third team, so we just have to get through with the two teams for now. Perhaps once the SRU clear their debt (think it's currently around the £9m mark) then there may be a third team created in the Aberdeen area, which will initially take up the Connacht-type role of developing players and eventually flourishing into top-6 contenders. Apparently, there's sufficient demand in the Aberdeen area for supporting a third Pro Team and Aberdeen Asset Management have said they would support it if they could, so if the SRU can clear the debt in the next 4-5 years we will see where we stand then.

Well in all honesty, if you pay 36 players £500 per week, for 52 weeks a year then your total wage bill is £936,000 a year. Is anyone really saying that Borders or Caledonia (Aberdeen and Perth) couldn't generate that themselves? Fair enough the teams will lose most of the games they play but hell it will increase the pool of available Scottish players by 100% at a stroke, as well as increasing oppertunities. Not being sarcastic but most Welsh Premiership players have day jobs and most in menial jobs, if you offered most of them £500 a week and a chance to focus on rugby full time, they'd be chuffed for the chance.

England are already in discussions about increasing the size of the Aviva to 14 teams and France already has a 14 team league so it's not beyond the realms of possibility.

Shifty wrote:

Scottish White Line Fever wrote:

Shifty wrote:Every 6 nations team will always find that little bit extra when playing against the English, it's a fact of life.  Personally I think this is an argument everyone has been having since 1999.  Scotland players are largely crap and over rated.  It doesn't matter what coach you have, these players just can't deliver against crack teams like Ireland, Wales, France and England who have very small margins between them.  In the 6 nations at the moment we have 4 teams who win and lose games at the discretion of a referees decision and 2 weak teams who make up the numbers.

Italy and Scotland REALLY need to increase the numbers of their professional teams.  ANY half decent Welsh or Irish player is given full oppertunity to develop a professional career, while in Italy and Scotland due to the limited number of teams and contracts  players just aren't given as much chance.  

Take for example the U20's international teams, look at the Welsh and Irish teams going back over the last few 6 nations and World Cups, most of the Irish and Welsh players go on to become professionals and get oppertunities at regional and provincial level and a chance to develop.  Can you honestly say the same is true for Italy and Scotland?  Just because a player might not be world class at 19 doesn't mean he won't be that way at 26.  

A great example of this is when Wales lost 92-0 to New Zealand in the U20 world cup in 2011.  The 2 best Welsh players on the field were Gareth Anscombe and Rhys Llewellyn who were playing for New Zealand, yet despite just a hammering, a lot of those same Welsh players have had the chance to go on and develop as a professional.  

look at the team:
Wales U20: Liam Williams (Llanelli); Iolo Evans (Scarlets / Llanelli) Owen Williams (Blues / Cardiff), Lewis Robling (Dragons / Newport), Dale Ford (Scarlets / Llanelli); Steve Shingler (London Irish), Lewis Jones (Blues / Pontypridd); Rhodri Jones (Scarlets / Llanelli), Kirby Myhill (Scarlets / Llanelli), WillGriff John (Blues/ Pontypridd), Lloyd Peers (capt, Ospreys/ Bridgend), Cory Hill (Blues / Pontypridd), Edward Siggery (Pontypridd), Thomas Young (Blues / Cardiff), Owen Sheppeard (Blues / Pontypridd).

Replacements: Jamie Sollis (Dragons / Cross Keys), WillTaylor (Ospreys / Swansea), Macauley Cook (Blues / Cardiff), Luke Hamilton (Blues / Glamorgan), Jonathan Evans (Dragons / Newport), Matthew Morgan (Ospreys / Swansea), Ross Jones (Ospreys / Bridgend)

Most of those names are now familiar reading for Welsh people reading this post, the vast majority professionals at their regions.  Compare that with the Scotland squad at the same U20 world cup, very few of the Scottish names have made it as professionals from that time.  

In an ideal world we would have 3-4 Pro Teams in Scotland, but the money just isn't there at the moment to create and support a third team, so we just have to get through with the two teams for now. Perhaps once the SRU clear their debt (think it's currently around the £9m mark) then there may be a third team created in the Aberdeen area, which will initially take up the Connacht-type role of developing players and eventually flourishing into top-6 contenders. Apparently, there's sufficient demand in the Aberdeen area for supporting a third Pro Team and Aberdeen Asset Management have said they would support it if they could, so if the SRU can clear the debt in the next 4-5 years we will see where we stand then.

Well in all honesty, if you pay 36 players £500 per week, for 52 weeks a year then your total wage bill is £936,000 a year.  Is anyone really saying that Borders or Caledonia (Aberdeen and Perth) couldn't generate that themselves?  Fair enough the teams will lose most of the games they play but hell it will increase the pool of available Scottish players by 100% at a stroke, as well as increasing oppertunities.  Not being sarcastic but most Welsh Premiership players have day jobs and most in menial jobs, if you offered most of them £500 a week and a chance to focus on rugby full time, they'd be chuffed for the chance.  

England are already in discussions about increasing the size of the Aviva to 14 teams and France already has a 14 team league so it's not beyond the realms of possibility.

i completely agree. its self evident you cant compete with 2 teams. 1 more team will increase playing resources by 50pc.

and while on subject 1m pounds to a company like aberdeen is like a lunch tip. its wouldnt even register.

Shifty wrote:

Scottish White Line Fever wrote:

Shifty wrote:Every 6 nations team will always find that little bit extra when playing against the English, it's a fact of life.  Personally I think this is an argument everyone has been having since 1999.  Scotland players are largely crap and over rated.  It doesn't matter what coach you have, these players just can't deliver against crack teams like Ireland, Wales, France and England who have very small margins between them.  In the 6 nations at the moment we have 4 teams who win and lose games at the discretion of a referees decision and 2 weak teams who make up the numbers.

Italy and Scotland REALLY need to increase the numbers of their professional teams.  ANY half decent Welsh or Irish player is given full oppertunity to develop a professional career, while in Italy and Scotland due to the limited number of teams and contracts  players just aren't given as much chance.  

Take for example the U20's international teams, look at the Welsh and Irish teams going back over the last few 6 nations and World Cups, most of the Irish and Welsh players go on to become professionals and get oppertunities at regional and provincial level and a chance to develop.  Can you honestly say the same is true for Italy and Scotland?  Just because a player might not be world class at 19 doesn't mean he won't be that way at 26.  

A great example of this is when Wales lost 92-0 to New Zealand in the U20 world cup in 2011.  The 2 best Welsh players on the field were Gareth Anscombe and Rhys Llewellyn who were playing for New Zealand, yet despite just a hammering, a lot of those same Welsh players have had the chance to go on and develop as a professional.  

look at the team:
Wales U20: Liam Williams (Llanelli); Iolo Evans (Scarlets / Llanelli) Owen Williams (Blues / Cardiff), Lewis Robling (Dragons / Newport), Dale Ford (Scarlets / Llanelli); Steve Shingler (London Irish), Lewis Jones (Blues / Pontypridd); Rhodri Jones (Scarlets / Llanelli), Kirby Myhill (Scarlets / Llanelli), WillGriff John (Blues/ Pontypridd), Lloyd Peers (capt, Ospreys/ Bridgend), Cory Hill (Blues / Pontypridd), Edward Siggery (Pontypridd), Thomas Young (Blues / Cardiff), Owen Sheppeard (Blues / Pontypridd).

Replacements: Jamie Sollis (Dragons / Cross Keys), WillTaylor (Ospreys / Swansea), Macauley Cook (Blues / Cardiff), Luke Hamilton (Blues / Glamorgan), Jonathan Evans (Dragons / Newport), Matthew Morgan (Ospreys / Swansea), Ross Jones (Ospreys / Bridgend)

Most of those names are now familiar reading for Welsh people reading this post, the vast majority professionals at their regions.  Compare that with the Scotland squad at the same U20 world cup, very few of the Scottish names have made it as professionals from that time.  

In an ideal world we would have 3-4 Pro Teams in Scotland, but the money just isn't there at the moment to create and support a third team, so we just have to get through with the two teams for now. Perhaps once the SRU clear their debt (think it's currently around the £9m mark) then there may be a third team created in the Aberdeen area, which will initially take up the Connacht-type role of developing players and eventually flourishing into top-6 contenders. Apparently, there's sufficient demand in the Aberdeen area for supporting a third Pro Team and Aberdeen Asset Management have said they would support it if they could, so if the SRU can clear the debt in the next 4-5 years we will see where we stand then.

Well in all honesty, if you pay 36 players £500 per week, for 52 weeks a year then your total wage bill is £936,000 a year.  Is anyone really saying that Borders or Caledonia (Aberdeen and Perth) couldn't generate that themselves?  Fair enough the teams will lose most of the games they play but hell it will increase the pool of available Scottish players by 100% at a stroke, as well as increasing oppertunities.  Not being sarcastic but most Welsh Premiership players have day jobs and most in menial jobs, if you offered most of them £500 a week and a chance to focus on rugby full time, they'd be chuffed for the chance.  

England are already in discussions about increasing the size of the Aviva to 14 teams and France already has a 14 team league so it's not beyond the realms of possibility.

What about renting a stadium and a training centre? And paying for security and Police attendance on match days? And presumably you have to pay to enter the Pro12? And you have to pay the coaching staff, physios, doctors, analysts, the business people to run the club etc. So it would take more than £1m to get a team up and running, but it's a good point you're making that we need more players playing - however, the money just isn't there. You're very fortunate in Wales that rugby is the nation's number one sport (correct me if I'm wrong!!), so you have the player numbers already there.

I accept your point about the wage bill, but in taking some players away from Glasgow and Edinburgh you risk losing competitiveness from those sides, particularly Glasgow, who have to be aiming to compete for the Pro12 title every season. These squad players have a role to play whilst the internationals are away during the 6N and AIs. The SRU have said relatively recently I think that a third team remains a distance away - although if a millionaire comes along and says he wants to start and fund a third pro-team then I'm sure the SRU would support that. There has been talk of linking up with London Scottish and entering them into the Pro12, which is an idea to consider, although it would again require the SRU to throw money at it.

Sorry we have had this argument before so many times. We had 3 and 4 professional teams before and they were all crap. Now we have two and they are competitive, in Glasgow's case very competitive. If we are ever going to increase our professional teams it needs to be on the basis that they will be competitive as well.

I accept that may not happen immediately in the first season, but I also accept that it will never happen on the basis of paying players £500 a week. That might be fine as a first contract for young players but to hold onto and develop a team it would need to increase very significantly.

If the teams are not successful they will fail, it is what is happening with the Italian teams in the Pro 12 in that they just can't push on and consequently are losing their players and their support, it is a vicious circle.

Scottish rugby for the moment has to follow the model that a lot of our players are not going to play in our teams in our league. Our best players will move on if and when they are successful, this will benefit the players, who will develop and earn more money and free up space for the next generation to come through.

I would love us to have another professional team, but it is not going to happen any time soon.

BigGee wrote:Sorry we have had this argument before so many times. We had 3 and 4 professional teams before and they were all crap. Now we have two and they are competitive, in Glasgow's case very competitive. If we are ever going to increase our professional teams it needs to be on the basis that they will be competitive as well.

I accept that may not happen immediately in the first season, but I also accept that it will never happen on the basis of paying players £500 a week. That might be fine as a first contract for young players but to hold onto and develop a team it would need to increase very significantly.

If the teams are not successful they will fail, it is what is happening with the Italian teams in the Pro 12 in that they just can't push on and consequently are losing their players and their support, it is a vicious circle.

Scottish rugby for the moment has to follow the model that a lot of our players are not going to play in our teams in our league. Our best players will move on if and when they are successful, this will benefit the players, who will develop and earn more money and free up space for the next generation to come through.

I would love us to have another professional team, but it is not going to happen any time soon.

Agreed, you won't attract a fan base if you're getting hammered by 30-50 points every weekend. It won't draw fans in, and therefore it won't be an attractive investment for investors, so will just fail. If and when the SRU get in a position to fund a third pro team, they have to take their time to ensure the structure of the club is right with the right people in the right jobs, attract experienced players and combine a strong core of experience with exciting young talent. I accept they won't win every game to start with, but the worst thing that we could do is rush into a third pro team without thorough planning and end up with a team that is hammered every week.

Scottish White Line Fever wrote:Agreed, you won't attract a fan base if you're getting hammered by 30-50 points every weekend. It won't draw fans in, and therefore it won't be an attractive investment for investors, so will just fail. If and when the SRU get in a position to fund a third pro team, they have to take their time to ensure the structure of the club is right with the right people in the right jobs, attract experienced players and combine a strong core of experience with exciting young talent. I accept they won't win every game to start with, but the worst thing that we could do is rush into a third pro team without thorough planning and end up with a team that is hammered every week.

Well plenty of rugby clubs have bad seasons and their fans still turn up, and if you have Caledonia Reds and Borders, were not talking about "new" teams. All were talking about is giving chances to Scottish U20 players, and selecting some of the better players from the RBS Premier division. Secondly were not entering these teams in the Aviva, their going into the Rabo, and frankly they'll be playing against Welsh (Scarlets, Blues and Dragons) and Italian teams who are playing exactly these types of players in their teams anyway.

There are only a few very big earners in most Rabo teams anyway, even with a wage cap of £4.5m, and with internationals earning about £300k each, how much do you think development players actually get paid? Bearing in mind were talking about a squad of 32-38 players here. From what I gather many players who play regularly in the Rabo for Welsh regions earn something in the region of £16-£18k a year which is just over £300 a week. The very, very big stars earn the big money, the rank and file and development players barely earn enough to survive.

Nothing in Scotland is going to change, because there are no oppertunities for your players to go after the U20 age group, they simply for the most part seem to drop down into amateur Scottish rugby and don't progress. Out of 46 professional players in the Glasgow squad, 9 of them aren't Scottish. Edinburgh have 48 professionals on their books and 18 of them are not Scottish. thats really needs to be sorted out, if there are only 94 professional contracts in Scotland then all of them need to be for Scottish players

BigGee wrote:I accept that may not happen immediately in the first season, but I also accept that it will never happen on the basis of paying players £500 a week. That might be fine as a first contract for young players but to hold onto and develop a team it would need to increase very significantly.

Thats exactly the point, all these U20 players need is a base to spring off from, if their any good they can be hoovered up by French and English teams. Let them have their games in the Rabo Pro 12 to put themselves in the shop window, then let the English and French employ they them, you increase your player base, these players can then kick on and free up places for the next years group of players to have a crack at it. Academies create a log jam, there is always another group of lads coming through the following year. Haven't you noticed whats been happening in Wales? Each region loses a couple of internationals each year, but no sooner did George North leave Liam Williams took his place, when Kahn Fotuali'i left the Ospreys, Rhys Webb pushed through, then took the Wales berth off Mike Phillips.

A gap opens up for a young player by one leaving for France or England, then the next kid comes through, he gets a regional spot, plays for Wales and develops, then he leaves, and we start all over again.

The whole point is the spring board and the chances these guys have to play top level rugby while having the chance to earn a living and concentrate on their skills full time, at the moment there aren't enough oppertunities for Scottish players.

Shifty wrote:

Scottish White Line Fever wrote:Agreed, you won't attract a fan base if you're getting hammered by 30-50 points every weekend. It won't draw fans in, and therefore it won't be an attractive investment for investors, so will just fail. If and when the SRU get in a position to fund a third pro team, they have to take their time to ensure the structure of the club is right with the right people in the right jobs, attract experienced players and combine a strong core of experience with exciting young talent. I accept they won't win every game to start with, but the worst thing that we could do is rush into a third pro team without thorough planning and end up with a team that is hammered every week.

Well plenty of rugby clubs have bad seasons and their fans still turn up, and if you have Caledonia Reds and Borders, were not talking about "new" teams.  All were talking about is giving chances to Scottish U20 players, and selecting some of the better players from the RBS Premier division.  Secondly were not entering these teams in the Aviva, their going into the Rabo, and frankly they'll be playing against Welsh (Scarlets, Blues and Dragons) and Italian teams who are playing exactly these types of players in their teams anyway.  

There are only a few very big earners in most Rabo teams anyway, even with a wage cap of £4.5m, and with internationals earning about £300k each, how much do you think development players actually get paid? Bearing in mind were talking about a squad of 32-38 players here.  From what I gather many players who play regularly in the Rabo for Welsh regions earn something in the region of £16-£18k a year which is just over £300 a week.  The very, very big stars earn the big money, the rank and file and development players barely earn enough to survive.

Nothing in Scotland is going to change, because there are no oppertunities for your players to go after the U20 age group, they simply for the most part seem to drop down into amateur Scottish rugby and don't progress.  Out of 46 professional players in the Glasgow squad, 9 of them aren't Scottish.  Edinburgh have 48 professionals on their books and 18 of them are not Scottish.  thats really needs to be sorted out, if there are only 94 professional contracts in Scotland then all of them need to be for Scottish players

Yes plenty teams do have bad seasons and their fans remain loyal - but are you talking about established clubs here that have an established fan base but just have a bad season because that's very different to starting off having bad seasons (like Aironi)? The Borders were disbanded because of their poor attendances and the pride of the Borders in their individual clubs, eg Gala, Hawick etc, so the Borders isn't a viable option. In every sense of the word ProTeam3 will be a "new" team - if it's in Aberdeen it has to attract new fans - not rely on a fan base of 2500 people or so who remember the Caledonian Reds.

Regarding the wage bill, did you see my early post about the other costs? It's not just about a wage bill - there are so many other factors to take into account. The SRU Chief Exec Dodson said that we would need £6-7m of investment for four or five seasons to develop a competitive ProTeam3.

I agree about the NSQ contract situation, but there is a balance between trying to get SQ players into every position and trying to have two competitive pro teams - Edinburgh have got their balance wrong and wasted money on Atiga and Andries Strauss, but there are signs that Solomons is bringing through the SQ talent. Hoyland, Sutherland and SHC have all made progress this season, whilst Dean, Farndale and Bradbury aren't far behind - Solomons has expressed the intention of having local talent coming through the ranks, so that is progress. Also factor in a few "project" players, namely Strauss, Nel and Du Preez.

You're obviously very knowledgeable about Scottish rugby (genuinely not being sarcastic!), and don't get me wrong I would love to see a Pro16 (4 teams from each country), but we don't have the money to throw at ProTeam3.

15 Ruaridh Young
14 Damien Hoyland - Edinburgh debut
13 Chris Auld
12 Mark Bennett - Glasgow and Scotland
11 Rory Hughes - Glasgow and allegedly kebab shop boxer
10 Tommy Allan - Italy
9 Ali Price - Glasgow
1 Shawn Muir
2 Russell Anderson
3 D'arcy Rae - Glasgow and Treviso
4 Ruaridh Leishman
5 Jonny Gray - Glasgow and Scotland
6 Alex Henderson
7 Will Bordill - Glasgow
8 Adam Ashe - Glasgow and Scotland

Replacements:
16 Callum Black
17 Jamie Bhatti
18 Phil Cringle - Carcassonne
19 Andrew Cramond - Toulon
20 Tommy Spinks - Glasgow
21 Scott Steele - London Irish
22 Robbie Fergusson - probably would have made his Glasgow debut but had serious health issues.
23 Keith Buchan

15 Jordan Williams
14 Harry Robinson - Cardiff and Wales(?)
13 Cory Allen - Cardiff and Wales(?)
12 Steffan Hughes
11 Aaron Warren
10 Sam Davies - Ospreys
9 Rhodri Williams
1 Gareth Thomas
2 Ethan Lewis
3 Nicky Thomas
4 Carwyn Jones
5 Rhodri Hughes
6 Ellis Jenkins - Cardiff?
7 Daniel Thomas
8 Ieuan Jones
Replacements:
16 Elliot Dee
17 Nicky Smith
18 Dan Suter
19 Jack Jones
20 James Benjamin
21 Joshua Davies
22 Jack Dixon
23 Hallam Amos - Dragons and Wales?

Sorry I might have got some of these wrong!

These are the two U20s side from the fixture two years ago, could you mark up how many of the Welsh guys have gone on to play professionally and for Wales? I know some of them but I won't know all of their situations. By the way, I'm not trying to prove a point with this, but just interested in the comparison!

Scottish White Line Fever wrote:Yes plenty teams do have bad seasons and their fans remain loyal - but are you talking about established clubs here that have an established fan base but just have a bad season because that's very different to starting off having bad seasons (like Aironi)? The Borders were disbanded because of their poor attendances and the pride of the Borders in their individual clubs, eg Gala, Hawick etc, so the Borders isn't a viable option. In every sense of the word ProTeam3 will be a "new" team - if it's in Aberdeen it has to attract new fans - not rely on a fan base of 2500 people or so who remember the Caledonian Reds.

Regarding the wage bill, did you see my early post about the other costs? It's not just about a wage bill - there are so many other factors to take into account. The SRU Chief Exec Dodson said that we would need £6-7m of investment for four or five seasons to develop a competitive ProTeam3.

I agree about the NSQ contract situation, but there is a balance between trying to get SQ players into every position and trying to have two competitive pro teams - Edinburgh have got their balance wrong and wasted money on Atiga and Andries Strauss, but there are signs that Solomons is bringing through the SQ talent. Hoyland, Sutherland and SHC have all made progress this season, whilst Dean, Farndale and Bradbury aren't far behind - Solomons has expressed the intention of having local talent coming through the ranks, so that is progress. Also factor in a few "project" players, namely Strauss, Nel and Du Preez.

You're obviously very knowledgeable about Scottish rugby (genuinely not being sarcastic!), and don't get me wrong I would love to see a Pro16 (4 teams from each country), but we don't have the money to throw at ProTeam3.

Edinburgh lost by 60 points earlier in the season to an Ospreys team made up mostly of local lads from their academy. Secondly the Welsh regions don't generate their own funds, it comes from competition money and the WRU, their attendances are barely around the 4-6k mark for non derbies. There was talk of reducing the Welsh regions from 4 to 2 or 3 a few years ago but considering what the WRU would of lost in competition revenue they decided it was a bad idea. The regions can generate enough to run off competition money and survive, but cannot compete with the money the French and English teams have.
Scotland need to create one or two teams and use this team like Ireland used to use Connacht, give them less funding than the other 3 and use them for development purposes. The Scotland rugby team is more important, and if this would help them develop more players to increase Scotlands talent pool then surely they need to do it.

The biggest issue for Scottish rugby for me is this year Scotland U20 beat Wales U20, I can gurantee nearly all those Welsh lads will get a regional contract, almost all will play in the Welsh Premiership, most will play regional rugby, and several will play for Wales. Far less of those Scottish lads will have that chance, despite beating their Welsh counterparts. Why? Well there isn't the space in the 2 professional Scottish teams to develop them. Scan through the old Scottish U20 teams in the 6 nations and World Cups, what the hell happened to all those guys?

I accept the Blues, Scarlets and Dragons are not competitive, but they are giving chances to players and developing them and they are helping the Welsh team be strong because of the players they are developing. Australia realised years ago they needed more than Queensland and New South Wales to stay in the hunt and be competitive with New Zealand, so they made the Brumbies, since then they have expanded again to increase the chances for young Australian players to learn.

Since the dawn of rugby union Wales and Scotland have been about equal, were a great barometer for each other. Wales win in Cardiff, and lose in Murrayfield, that has pretty much been the case since 1883! Yet since 2003, it reads played 13, lost 12 for Scotland. While many of those games haven't even been close, Scotland have been routed many times. Take the last 13 games away from the stats and Wales are slightly ahead in head to head results. It's happening because you don't have the depth and talent to compete, and you never will with a talent pool of 60 professional players. Expand it to 90 or 120 getting the chance to play and learn and things will improve.

Shifty wrote:

Scottish White Line Fever wrote:Yes plenty teams do have bad seasons and their fans remain loyal - but are you talking about established clubs here that have an established fan base but just have a bad season because that's very different to starting off having bad seasons (like Aironi)? The Borders were disbanded because of their poor attendances and the pride of the Borders in their individual clubs, eg Gala, Hawick etc, so the Borders isn't a viable option. In every sense of the word ProTeam3 will be a "new" team - if it's in Aberdeen it has to attract new fans - not rely on a fan base of 2500 people or so who remember the Caledonian Reds.

Regarding the wage bill, did you see my early post about the other costs? It's not just about a wage bill - there are so many other factors to take into account. The SRU Chief Exec Dodson said that we would need £6-7m of investment for four or five seasons to develop a competitive ProTeam3.

I agree about the NSQ contract situation, but there is a balance between trying to get SQ players into every position and trying to have two competitive pro teams - Edinburgh have got their balance wrong and wasted money on Atiga and Andries Strauss, but there are signs that Solomons is bringing through the SQ talent. Hoyland, Sutherland and SHC have all made progress this season, whilst Dean, Farndale and Bradbury aren't far behind - Solomons has expressed the intention of having local talent coming through the ranks, so that is progress. Also factor in a few "project" players, namely Strauss, Nel and Du Preez.

You're obviously very knowledgeable about Scottish rugby (genuinely not being sarcastic!), and don't get me wrong I would love to see a Pro16 (4 teams from each country), but we don't have the money to throw at ProTeam3.

Edinburgh lost by 60 points earlier in the season to an Ospreys team made up mostly of local lads from their academy.  Secondly the Welsh regions don't generate their own funds, it comes from competition money and the WRU, their attendances are barely around the 4-6k mark for non derbies.  There was talk of reducing the Welsh regions from 4 to 2 or 3 a few years ago but considering what the WRU would of lost in competition revenue they decided it was a bad idea.  The regions can generate enough to run off competition money and survive, but cannot compete with the money the French and English teams have.  
Scotland need to create one or two teams and use this team like Ireland used to use Connacht, give them less funding than the other 3 and use them for development purposes.  The Scotland rugby team is more important, and if this would help them develop more players to increase Scotlands talent pool then surely they need to do it.  

The biggest issue for Scottish rugby for me is this year Scotland U20 beat Wales U20, I can gurantee nearly all those Welsh lads will get a regional contract, almost all will play in the Welsh Premiership, most will play regional rugby, and several will play for Wales.  Far less of those Scottish lads will have that chance, despite beating their Welsh counterparts.  Why?  Well there isn't the space in the 2 professional Scottish teams to develop them.  Scan through the old Scottish U20 teams in the 6 nations and World Cups, what the hell happened to all those guys?

I accept the Blues, Scarlets and Dragons are not competitive, but they are giving chances to players and developing them and they are helping the Welsh team be strong because of the players they are developing.  Australia realised years ago they needed more than Queensland and New South Wales to stay in the hunt and be competitive with New Zealand, so they made the Brumbies, since then they have expanded again to increase the chances for young Australian players to learn.

Since the dawn of rugby union Wales and Scotland have been about equal, were a great barometer for each other.  Wales win in Cardiff, and lose in Murrayfield, that has pretty much been the case since 1883!  Yet since 2003, it reads played 13, lost 12 for Scotland.  While many of those games haven't even been close, Scotland have been routed many times.  Take the last 13 games away from the stats and Wales are slightly ahead in head to head results.  It's happening because you don't have the depth and talent to compete, and you never will with a talent pool of 60 professional players.  Expand it to 90 or 120 getting the chance to play and learn and things will improve.  

Trust me, I'm sure I speak for every Scottish fan in saying we want 4 competitive regions (all the Irish provinces are competitive, as are all the Welsh regions) and a national team to be proud of, but there isn't the money in the Scottish game to support a third pro team. Ultimately, money is the key issue here and there's not enough of it in the Scottish game - if there was a great deal of money available, the SRU would have created a third pro-team, or even possibly franchised one of the existing two teams out (although that didn't work out at all with the Carruthers and Edinburgh).

You talk about us not having the talent - well if that's true, then there's very little point in having more rugby teams because you would just spread that little talent thinner across more teams and it weakens Glasgow and Edinburgh. The issue is dragging children away from football and particularly getting talented kids into rugby at a young age. I grew up playing football, rugby, cricket and almost every other sport you could try, but lots of kids just stick to football. Would it be fair to say that many Welsh kids just grow up playing rugby? There is talent in Scotland, but the key is identifying it at a young age and nurturing that talent through academies and then into Pro teams.

Also, let's be fair, not every U20 internationalist will make it as a professional rugby player, whether that is through injuries, lack of ability or even wanting to pursue other careers. If you look at the Scottish U20s of the past few years, they've been getting hammered by Wales U20s etc. It's only really this year that there has been a marked difference, and a great number of this year's crop have EDP contracts or contracts with other teams (I count 14 out of 23 have contracts with professional teams including Glasgow and Edinburgh and yes, some of them won't make it professionally, but a few have already made Edinburgh/Glasgow debuts).

I hope we have a basic understanding that backs tend to break into professional rugby a couple of years before forwards in general.  

15 Jordan Williams - Still in the u20's and regarded as very promising, 52 games played.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtsBnYO_QDE - from 7:20 onwards
http://www1.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/rugby-union/8974841/try-of-the-week-williams

14 Harry Robinson - Cardiff and Wales(?) <-- correct 3 wales caps
13 Cory Allen - Cardiff and Wales(?) <-- correct 2 wales caps
12 Steffan Hughes - Scrlaets professiona, just broke leg and will be out for a year
11 Aaron Warren - 1 Wales cap, Scarlets professional
10 Sam Davies - Ospreys, world player of the year last season.  43 games for the Ospreys.
9 Rhodri Williams - Scarlets professional, normally on the bench.
1 Gareth Thomas - Ospreys professional, 11 games this season.
2 Ethan Lewis - professional at Cardiff Blues
3 Nicky Thomas - turned down contract offer with Ospreys, leaving for Gloucester.
4 Carwyn Jones - professional at the Scarlets
5 Rhodri Hughes - professional at the Ospreys 10 games played so far.
6 Ellis Jenkins - Cardiff? correct professional at the Blues
7 Daniel Thomas - was with the Scarlets, not sure now.
8 Ieuan Jones - Blues player, currently loaned to the Ospreys, 6 games played for the Ospreys so far, since October.
Replacements:
16 Elliot Dee - 33 games played for the Dragons, 20 this season.
17 Nicky Smith - 2 Wales caps, 20 games for the Ospreys
18 Dan Suter - 25 games for the Ospreys so far.
19 Jack Jones - big things were expected of him, he seems to have vanished?
20 James Benjamin - 10 games this season for the Dragons
21 Joshua Davies - released by Dragons, think he's semi pro in the Welsh Premiership
22 Jack Dixon - professional at the Dragons, 46 games so far
23 Hallam Amos - Dragons and Wales? 1 Wales cap

p.s. - please dont make me do that again, im shattered now

Scottish White Line Fever wrote:You talk about us not having the talent - well if that's true, then there's very little point in having more rugby teams because you would just spread that little talent thinner across more teams and it weakens Glasgow and Edinburgh. The issue is dragging children away from football and particularly getting talented kids into rugby at a young age. I grew up playing football, rugby, cricket and almost every other sport you could try, but lots of kids just stick to football. Would it be fair to say that many Welsh kids just grow up playing rugby? There is talent in Scotland, but the key is identifying it at a young age and nurturing that talent through academies and then into Pro teams.

What I mean is Scotland do not have the means to develop NEW talent, the same players screw up time and time again in the Scotland jersey and always seem to play, solely because they have no competition to challenge them. Young players need time, oppertunities and patience to develop, a low wage contract and a spot in a new Scotland province / super club would solve a lot of that. It's just the chance that they need.

Shifty wrote:I hope we have a basic understanding that backs tend to break into professional rugby a couple of years before forwards in general.  

15 Jordan Williams - Still in the u20's and regarded as very promising, 52 games played.
14 Harry Robinson - Cardiff and Wales(?) <-- correct 3 wales caps
13 Cory Allen - Cardiff and Wales(?) <-- correct 2 wales caps
12 Steffan Hughes - Scrlaets professiona, just broke leg and will be out for a year
11 Aaron Warren - 1 Wales cap, Scarlets professional
10 Sam Davies - Ospreys, world player of the year last season.  43 games for the Ospreys.
9 Rhodri Williams - Scarlets professional, normally on the bench.
1 Gareth Thomas - Ospreys professional, 11 games this season.
2 Ethan Lewis - professional at Cardiff Blues
3 Nicky Thomas - turned down contract offer with Ospreys, leaving for Gloucester.
4 Carwyn Jones - professional at the Scarlets
5 Rhodri Hughes - professional at the Ospreys 10 games played so far.
6 Ellis Jenkins - Cardiff? correct professional at the Blues
7 Daniel Thomas - was with the Scarlets, not sure now.
8 Ieuan Jones - Blues player, currently loaned to the Ospreys, 6 games played for the Ospreys so far, since October.
Replacements:
16 Elliot Dee - 33 games played for the Dragons, 20 this season.
17 Nicky Smith - 2 Wales caps, 20 games for the Ospreys
18 Dan Suter - 25 games for the Ospreys so far.
19 Jack Jones - big things were expected of him, he seems to have vanished?
20 James Benjamin - 10 games this season for the Dragons
21 Joshua Davies - released by Dragons, think he's semi pro in the Welsh Premiership
22 Jack Dixon - professional at the Dragons, 46 games so far
23 Hallam Amos - Dragons and Wales? 1 Wales cap

p.s. - please dont make me do that again, im shattered now

Haha I shouldn't have doubted myself, I knew I recognised some of those other names but it's certainly an eye-opener. Ellis Jenkins had a monster of a game against Edinburgh a few weeks back, looks a real prospect! Well mate, it's been a good debate, cheers!

alive555 wrote:

Shifty wrote:

Scottish White Line Fever wrote:

Shifty wrote:Every 6 nations team will always find that little bit extra when playing against the English, it's a fact of life.  Personally I think this is an argument everyone has been having since 1999.  Scotland players are largely crap and over rated.  It doesn't matter what coach you have, these players just can't deliver against crack teams like Ireland, Wales, France and England who have very small margins between them.  In the 6 nations at the moment we have 4 teams who win and lose games at the discretion of a referees decision and 2 weak teams who make up the numbers.

Italy and Scotland REALLY need to increase the numbers of their professional teams.  ANY half decent Welsh or Irish player is given full oppertunity to develop a professional career, while in Italy and Scotland due to the limited number of teams and contracts  players just aren't given as much chance.  

Take for example the U20's international teams, look at the Welsh and Irish teams going back over the last few 6 nations and World Cups, most of the Irish and Welsh players go on to become professionals and get oppertunities at regional and provincial level and a chance to develop.  Can you honestly say the same is true for Italy and Scotland?  Just because a player might not be world class at 19 doesn't mean he won't be that way at 26.  

A great example of this is when Wales lost 92-0 to New Zealand in the U20 world cup in 2011.  The 2 best Welsh players on the field were Gareth Anscombe and Rhys Llewellyn who were playing for New Zealand, yet despite just a hammering, a lot of those same Welsh players have had the chance to go on and develop as a professional.  

look at the team:
Wales U20: Liam Williams (Llanelli); Iolo Evans (Scarlets / Llanelli) Owen Williams (Blues / Cardiff), Lewis Robling (Dragons / Newport), Dale Ford (Scarlets / Llanelli); Steve Shingler (London Irish), Lewis Jones (Blues / Pontypridd); Rhodri Jones (Scarlets / Llanelli), Kirby Myhill (Scarlets / Llanelli), WillGriff John (Blues/ Pontypridd), Lloyd Peers (capt, Ospreys/ Bridgend), Cory Hill (Blues / Pontypridd), Edward Siggery (Pontypridd), Thomas Young (Blues / Cardiff), Owen Sheppeard (Blues / Pontypridd).

Replacements: Jamie Sollis (Dragons / Cross Keys), WillTaylor (Ospreys / Swansea), Macauley Cook (Blues / Cardiff), Luke Hamilton (Blues / Glamorgan), Jonathan Evans (Dragons / Newport), Matthew Morgan (Ospreys / Swansea), Ross Jones (Ospreys / Bridgend)

Most of those names are now familiar reading for Welsh people reading this post, the vast majority professionals at their regions.  Compare that with the Scotland squad at the same U20 world cup, very few of the Scottish names have made it as professionals from that time.  

In an ideal world we would have 3-4 Pro Teams in Scotland, but the money just isn't there at the moment to create and support a third team, so we just have to get through with the two teams for now. Perhaps once the SRU clear their debt (think it's currently around the £9m mark) then there may be a third team created in the Aberdeen area, which will initially take up the Connacht-type role of developing players and eventually flourishing into top-6 contenders. Apparently, there's sufficient demand in the Aberdeen area for supporting a third Pro Team and Aberdeen Asset Management have said they would support it if they could, so if the SRU can clear the debt in the next 4-5 years we will see where we stand then.

Well in all honesty, if you pay 36 players £500 per week, for 52 weeks a year then your total wage bill is £936,000 a year.  Is anyone really saying that Borders or Caledonia (Aberdeen and Perth) couldn't generate that themselves?  Fair enough the teams will lose most of the games they play but hell it will increase the pool of available Scottish players by 100% at a stroke, as well as increasing oppertunities.  Not being sarcastic but most Welsh Premiership players have day jobs and most in menial jobs, if you offered most of them £500 a week and a chance to focus on rugby full time, they'd be chuffed for the chance.  

England are already in discussions about increasing the size of the Aviva to 14 teams and France already has a 14 team league so it's not beyond the realms of possibility.

i completely agree. its self evident you cant compete with 2 teams. 1 more team will increase playing resources by 50pc.

and while on subject 1m pounds to a company like aberdeen is like a lunch tip. its wouldnt even register.

Just to pick up on this point...

When Martin Gilbert (AAM CEO) made his statement about supporting a team in Aberdeen I'm pretty sure this was in terms of sponsorship and potentially professional or practical business expertise - not as a guarantor and supporter for all involved costs!

I imagine there was a disconnect in ambitions between Gilbert (we want to support a team) and Dodson (we want someone to run a team).

If I were an investor through AAM I would not be too keen to know that my fees were going willy nilly on a rugby team. Whilst I realise that it is small change in real terms and totally immaterial in terms of assets under management, it is a very visible use of investors' fees. That's why you don't tend to see asset managers (Standard Life, Scottish Widows, Black Rock, Ignis etc) putting the big bucks into bankrolling a team - it's not a single wealthy owner's fortune he is playing with, it's many individuals and institutions' pensions and life savings.

Still, I would be keen to get them involved and hold discussions as to what support they would be willing/able to provide.

Oh, and £1m to run a team is very low. Given the need to rent a stadium, pay support staff, security, rates, player insurance etc. It's not a cheap business at all, and not something you can really cut corners in. There has to be much more to running a team than just paying salaries.

Maybe you can piggy back on the academies for training facilities.

Shifty wrote:

Scottish White Line Fever wrote:You talk about us not having the talent - well if that's true, then there's very little point in having more rugby teams because you would just spread that little talent thinner across more teams and it weakens Glasgow and Edinburgh. The issue is dragging children away from football and particularly getting talented kids into rugby at a young age. I grew up playing football, rugby, cricket and almost every other sport you could try, but lots of kids just stick to football. Would it be fair to say that many Welsh kids just grow up playing rugby? There is talent in Scotland, but the key is identifying it at a young age and nurturing that talent through academies and then into Pro teams.

What I mean is Scotland do not have the means to develop NEW talent, the same players screw up time and time again in the Scotland jersey and always seem to play, solely because they have no competition to challenge them.  Young players need time, oppertunities and patience to develop, a low wage contract and a spot in a new Scotland province / super club would solve a lot of that.  It's just the chance that they need.  

Agreed about the first bit in bold, and the issue is that these "same players" are wrongly considered shoe-ins because of their perceived experience and "game management and leadership". We have some talented players who haven't been given as much international game time as us fans would want, eg SHC not getting more than 10 minutes in any of the 6N games so far. Toolis and Watson given their debuts, but then dropped for the next game.

Agreed about the second bit in bold, but we have seen progress in developing new talent this year - Bradbury and Ritchie (and possibly Jake Kerr) from this year's U20s 6N have already made their Edinburgh debuts and Fagerson has featured reasonably regularly for Glasgow. Agreed that it's not on the same level as Wales obviously do, but it's better than it has been in recent years.

[quote="Scottish White Line Fever]
What about renting a stadium and a training centre? And paying for security and Police attendance on match days? And presumably you have to pay to enter the Pro12? And you have to pay the coaching staff, physios, doctors, analysts, the business people to run the club etc. So it would take more than £1m to get a team up and running, but it's a good point you're making that we need more players playing - however, the money just isn't there. You're very fortunate in Wales that rugby is the nation's number one sport (correct me if I'm wrong!!), so you have the player numbers already there.

I accept your point about the wage bill, but in taking some players away from Glasgow and Edinburgh you risk losing competitiveness from those sides, particularly Glasgow, who have to be aiming to compete for the Pro12 title every season. These squad players have a role to play whilst the internationals are away during the 6N and AIs. The SRU have said relatively recently I think that a third team remains a distance away - although if a millionaire comes along and says he wants to start and fund a third pro-team then I'm sure the SRU would support that. There has been talk of linking up with London Scottish and entering them into the Pro12, which is an idea to consider, although it would again require the SRU to throw money at it.
[/quote]

I should have refreshed the thread before posting

If we take the money point out of the issue, can we accept that the Scottish U20's beat Wales this season, and it is fair to say those Welsh boys will still go on to do a lot better than their Scottish counter parts, simply because there are chances there for them with 4 professional teams.  
Which ever way we look at it, FAR too many of those young promising lads are lost to a potentially great career simply because their are no chances for them to play.
That's a massive part of why Scotland are bottom with no wins this season.  Talent pool and depth, until you solve that you will always be down there with Italy.  

I can't argue this thread relentlessly with Scottish fans, but we all know Scotland can do a lot better than they are now, and their U20's are not coming through in the way New Zealand, Wales, Ireland, Australia, South Africa's are.  England can afford to be wasteful, but Scotland can not.

Football is Wales biggest sport, there are much more football players in Wales than rugby players, especially at children's age group level. Swansea are in the English Premiership, and Cardiff were recently in it. I think that kind of knocks spots off Celtics domination of the Scottish Premiership.

Shifty is completely correct. Every time I hear other nations fans they talk about "you're never going to be competitive with only two sides" . so even if we had one at the bottom of league its going to radically improve playing numbers .
Just like the sru themselves, all we hear is loads of excuses about not enough money.
Wales and Ireland have found the money. Connaught isn't a rich club look how they started small and grew. It.can be done if the marketing arm of the sru go out and court sponsors more effectively .
Aberdeen asset I'm sure would put up a few.million its absolute pocket change for a company of that size.
How many fans do.you think they would get in aberdeen. ?
I'd also add that glasgows c team isn't that far off being competitive in the pro12. So there's definitely talent out there.
The other part of the equation is numbers playing at school.
Unlike Ireland and wales Scotland doesn't play rugby at many state schools and that's got to change.
Problem is all the politicians are chav ball merchants so don't expect any change there ...

Probably worth noting that this is all completely hypothetical as at the moment there is not even a league for a third Scottish team to play in nor is there likely to be unless the Italian teams fold.

Our player depth is actually better than it has been for years and our U20's have also been competitive this year, I can see quite a few of them stepping up. More of our players are catching the eye of clubs in other countries. Things are not as bad as people are making them out to be. It is actually possible to put together a decent International team without any professional domestic league, Argentina have done it for years.

Running a third team that we cannot afford has as many risks as it has potential benefits, mainly that it could drag the other two down by draining their resources.

As I said earlier, if we ever get to the point where we can afford a third team, I would be right behind it. We are not where near that yet and probably won't be until the stadium is fully paid for. There are also other issues to be addressed as well, like getting Edinburgh properly supported in the right kind of environment. Both professional clubs need to be much closer to self funding through attendance and sponsorship than they are now. Glasgow in particular are improving in this regard, but again, still a long way to go.

A borders team was tried. the borders rugby watching public did not support them preferring their traditional teams. It folded

Changing coaches now would be daft. We should stick with what we have until the World Cup is over, at which point the SRU should allow Vern Cotter to make whatever changes he desires, provided the appointments are for fixed two years terms (so we can conduct a review mid-way through the next WC cycle).

Hopefully at that stage Vern can suggest that Scott Johnson be sent on a two year scouting mission to Shetland.

ScottishShuan,

Quick question mate, are you on the wind up?  Genuine question and no offense intended if not, I just ask because your first post on this board was about how upset you were that Scottish fans on FB were calling for Vern's head.  Shortly after you then post you think he should be removed and now you're back to saying he shouldn't go, but his coaching staff should.

I'm just wondering what your stance on Vern actually is, because you're all over the shop.

On some of the other topics covered:

I think Vern should be given time, he's only just in the door and after a promising AIs, he was possibly mislead about the quality of players at his disposal, the 6 nations has shown some up as not having improved/or just not being as capable, as we thought/hoped.

His backroom team, again give him time, he possibly worked with them to begin with due to contractual reasons, or because he wanted to see how they coped and as above, the AIs possibly gave him the wrong impression.

3rd/4th pro team, I think every Scottish fan agrees with your suggestion in principle Shifty, I think we would all love to see a 3rd or even 4th Scottish pro side, and without a doubt it would give more players a chance to make the grade.  Sadly though as others have pointed out, league space isn't there, nor is the financial backing.  The SRU is only just getting it's finances in order with the BT deal, a 3rd pro team at this stage could put us under more financial strain when the SRU's priority is to build Glasgow & Edinburgh to a point where they are less of a financial drain (a bit more self sustaining) and also successful.  After that I think they might look to release funds to invest in another team, but as things stand Edinburgh aren't pulling in the fans, and Glasgow whilst considerably better, are looking like they are about to be constrained by their stadium size, so could be a while before either team is getting enough folk through the door to take up the financial strain.

I also wonder if a once bitten twice shy approach is on the cards here for the SRU, we had a 3rd & 4th pro side, but neither of them really took off, and there is possibly a good chance the SRU are a bit apprehensive about chucking at least £3m-£4m towards a pro side that could ultimately fail.  Logically the borders would be an ideal place to have a professional rugby team, but the club game there is far stronger and more appealing to the average fan, so really the only other option is probably Aberdeen.  The issue there is that Aberdeen is largely focused on the oil industry, which is going through a bit of a sticky time at the moment (at least north sea oil is), which if it doesn't pick up could see a lot of people out of work.  Setting up a luxury business like Rugby (by luxury, i just mean not essential, despite what many of us on here may think) amid the risk of mass unemployment, is again something that would put the fear into the SRU.

The logical solution would be to form some kind of deal with London Scottish, but I have no idea how that works from an English Rugby perspective, we've speculated about this before, but I think most of the reasoning is hearsay and best guesses (apologies if I have misrepresented those that made the case for this previously).

I think the only way this might happen is if LS get frozen out of any potential promotion to the AP. This is actually a real possibility as there is talk of ring fencing the league.

Would it ever be politically acceptable for the SRU to put money into a club based in London. Speaking as someone who lives in London, I would love it if they did!

BigGee wrote:I think the only way this might happen is if LS get frozen out of any potential promotion to the AP. This is actually a real possibility as there is talk of ring fencing the league.

Would it ever be politically acceptable for the SRU to put money into a club based in London. Speaking as someone who lives in London, I would love it if they did!

Think the speculation was if the SRU could match (or get close to matching) the money the RFU pay to clubs in England for having a certain quota of English players then it could be achievable, but I don't think there was any evidence or guarantee behind that, just a working theory.

It would make a degree of sense given it's an established club with a Scottish heritage with a potentially massive  catchment.

But on the flip side does depend a lot on what the league rules are.

I don't think there is any legal or technical issues with the SRU putting money into LS. English rugby give LS money for having a certain percentage of players being English qualified.
LS have approached the SRU before about the SRU matching that amount and having LS play more Scottish players but the SRU refused. This was 3/4 seasons back. Now the SRU are in a better financial state surely it is the best option for both parties. LS still get backing but instead of it being the RFU its the SRU and more Scottish players get game time....win/win surely.
LS already have a good set up with some good commercial sponsors and a good fan base and with a bit more marketing would attract even more people.
Definitely the easiest option for introducing a so called 3rd Scottish team.
From a selfish point of view now that I have moved to Aberdeen I would love a team set up here. I have been surprised how many rugby enthusiasts there are up here and think with the correct marketing and pricing they could get a good crowd for a pro team in Aberdeen. There is already Aberdeen Asset Management who have shown their interest in a 3rd team and think there would be many other wealthy businesses based in Aberdeen who would come on board.
There is certainly enough players to form a 3rd team without taking players away from Edinburgh/Glasgow. Would they be competitive? I think with the right player recruitment they could be fairly quickly.

I think there was uncertainty whether the league would prevent one of their member clubs being financed by an external body. No idea if this is a genuine issue, and no idea what they could do about it, but it has the potential to be a stumbling block.

I think Aberdeen FC also said they would potentially be open to a ground share arrangement with any Pro rugby side, but I don't know if this was a throwaway comment or whether the club would actually be open to the idea.

EWT Spoons wrote:I think there was uncertainty whether the league would prevent one of their member clubs being financed by an external body.  No idea if this is a genuine issue, and no idea what they could do about it, but it has the potential to be a stumbling block.

I think Aberdeen FC also said they would potentially be open to a ground share arrangement with any Pro rugby side, but I don't know if this was a throwaway comment or whether the club would actually be open to the idea.

I'm sure LS looked into whether a move like that could be blocked by the league from LS being financed partly by the SRU and that they found there was no legal issue surrounding it so as far as I am aware there wouldn't be any stumbling blocks to it happening.

I cant imagine why Aberdeen FC wouldn't be keen to ground share, it would be extra money for them and they seem to have been supportive in the past when supporting rugby and having Scotland play at pittodrie. The only thing for me would be would the ground be too big for a pro team to start off in. We all know how bad the atmosphere can be at Murrayfield for an Edinburgh game and obviously not on the same size but think Pittodrie might lack atmosphere if it isn't full.

You're probably right, but is that for both the championship as well as the aviva? I don't know if there are different rules depending on the comp.

I wonder if the whole ground share idea was part of Aberdeen's plans to get planning permission for their new stadium, by making it more appealing to the council.

EWT Spoons, I didn't say he should go, I said I am losing patience!

He needs to be given a good 2-3yrs in post but something needs to change in that time!

Scottish Shaun wrote:EWT Spoons, I didn't say he should go, I said I am losing patience!

He needs to be given a good 2-3yrs in post but something needs to change in that time!

Sorry I may have misinterpreted when you said:

You wrote:I am beginning to lose faith/patience with Vern Cotter.

Am I the only one and if not then, who should we replace him with?

Does sound very much like you want him to go in that post.

But no worries, you've answered my question so thank you for that.

MacKnocked-on wrote:Regardless of who the coaches are we need to stop the tactic of kicking the ball away constantly, infuriating and ridiculous. Clearly presented England with numerous chances yesterday due to kicking the ball to them at will, fortunately despite our defensive shape being compromised massively by the loss of Dunbar, England cocked up most of their chances. We looked pretty good when we had the ball so for goodness sake keep it as much as we possibly can.  

Even more crazy when you think that the first real time you held on to the ball and went through some phases you looked better then us, and scored!