Who'll top the choking table on Saturday night?

Wales will consider themselves having played badly and to have choked to a certain extent if they can't put enough points on Italy to at least set a target for Ireland. 20 point win would probably just about keep them from the top of the choke table.

Ireland must look to win by at least 30 points against the wooden spoon no-hopers of Scotland. It's Ireland's tournament to lose. Anything else would put them firmly at the top of the choke table.

Neither England or France can really be expected to win, so no real choke points up for grabs in this rubber.

Thought?

I know this is a WUM thread, but what the hell:

France are one of the worst teams in the tournament (no offense whocares). Wales, bearing in mind how poor we are with such a rubbish game plan and inability to score tries, have beaten them 4 times on the bounce. 4 times! If England don't beat them at home then I think you need to drop down to the 6 Nations 'B' league. Or at the very least sack Stuart "I look like Gareth Thomas' Lancaster.

Griff wrote:I know this is a WUM thread, but what the hell:

France are one of the worst teams in the tournament (no offense whocares).  Wales, bearing in mind how poor we are with such a rubbish game plan and inability to score tries, have beaten them 4 times on the bounce.  4 times!  If England don't beat them at home then I think you need to drop down to the 6 Nations 'B' league.  Or at the very least sack Stuart "I look like Gareth Thomas' Lancaster.

Good you agree. France beat Italy by 29 points while being so poor, so Wales will score 60 odd points against Italy and keep a clean sheet, or will be considered hopeless chokers?

I can't see why we would break our all time record against them. Wales are playing awfully this year. Some really poor stuff from us. The fact that we have a chance of winning this bloody thing is testament to the poor quality of the other sides in the tournament.

Biggest chokers in the last few years have been England. There's no contest - the amount of times England have had 4 wins but blown opportunity after opportunity. England have had a high consistency of victories but that lack of a GS is something that cannot be ignored.

If England don't win the title they'll certainly look at the numerous butchered opportunities against Scotland as one of the reasons for that.

Surely if one of the title favourites like Wales,England or Ireland loses then that's choking?

I expect the biggest choker will probably be Nigel Owens and his team who will likely bottle any opportunity to award France penalties in the England half, due to RFU/IRB pressure, if they might lead to the trophy going anywhere other than to HQ.

rodders wrote:I expect the biggest choker will probably be Nigel Owens and his team who will likely bottle any opportunity to award France penalties in the England half, due to RFU/IRB pressure, if they might lead to the trophy going anywhere other than to HQ.

Sounds good to me!

We tried choking Barnes after the Welsh game...but he did a runner, claiming he couldn't hang around for the after-drinks due to a tummy bug, after eating food earlier in the day meant for the Irish players.

Griff wrote:I know this is a WUM thread, but what the hell:

France are one of the worst teams in the tournament (no offense whocares).  Wales, bearing in mind how poor we are with such a rubbish game plan and inability to score tries, have beaten them 4 times on the bounce.  4 times!  If England don't beat them at home then I think you need to drop down to the 6 Nations 'B' league.  Or at the very least sack Stuart "I look like Gareth Thomas' Lancaster.

no offense taken , we're just the best out of the 3 worst teams  I agree with the rest : Wales is our bogey team nowadays as PSA hasnt found a way to counter Welsh evolved tactics know as Gatlandball  but still ...would we have exchanged place kickers during that game, the result would have been significantly different .
Italy is playing without Parisse so anything less than a 30+ points win by Wales would be a deep failure imo, points difference might matter in your WC pool so better get used to score plenty of tries  

Wales are not in it too many points to play catch up with a team who beat us twice and drawn .Wales tend to choke first game of the six nations anyway. so its between Ireland and England. Ireland away , England at home and only a few points in it. Don't think both teams will choke , I think both teams will win but It all comes down who got the better defence between Scotland and France

Deciding a asymmetrical tournament on points difference is a nonsense.

England win either way, do the french and they will likely win the tournament, at last, after years of blowing the bloody thing. Come 2nd and they will tell us ad nauseam how consistency is what is important, they had a lot of injuries, they dont want to peak before RWC etc et bloody cetera

Gwlad England might lose though.

As for consistency - sure it's nice but England need to aspire for more than that.

England will lose a lot of credibility if they lose to France.

The team that has truly nothing to lose is France. This France team could be dangerous because of that.

Nobody loses credibility losing to France.  France are a team eternally mismanaged and badly coached (their own fault a lot of the time, mind you, as they seem to always be a headstrong lot that don't like to be over-coached)

But they still have players that can shine.  Even if we say only 50% of the players in Top14 are French, that's still the makings of 7 sides.  That's more than enough to find the right players.  All they require is a good coaching structure.
Last world cup proved that they can hit any side and make them work very hard for a Cup even without that coaching structure.

still losing to France at Twickenham would be quite a backward step for England. Even for vintage french teams it was quite an achievement to do that and as rare as it gets.

The bloody French and their travelling stomach bug underperformances. "Oh look, its' Big Ben, I'm losing form just looking at it!!"

I agree beshocked, been saying it all week that france always have one show in them and we haven't seen it yet and also this could be the shock win that most 6 Nations has. The other could be Scots winning or, and it pains me to say, never discount the Italains. Though sans Parisse they are half the side.

IMO England will win (though i am predicting a French win), Scotland might win and Wales will also win. Point is can France make it tight enough, and can we put 30 plus on Italy.

Matters nought though like i said, if England lose the story will be consistency and how injuries have blighted their tournament after stuffing Wales and setting themselves up for another great performance they have stuttered and stalled, definitely not improved. Of course they need to aspire to more but they won't hear it or admit it.
Fact is though they have, in Joseph and Watson, found really class players and Nowell has impressed me. The challenge they have now is to find a 23 and stick with them, faaar to much chopping and changing to have any real consistency which is what most fans bang on about in terms of them always coming 2nd. Shame they don't realize that consistent selection is worth even more.
Ireland will just be kicking themselves after letting Barnes beat them last week and if they lose to Scots they will have squandered such a great chance to dominate prior to RWC.  Cant really see it though, but Scotland have pushed NZ and Eng recently and definitely have a game in them. Still think Ireland have a sniff at the final of RWC due to their draw, a ssuming of course that Barnes doesn't referee the group match v a resurgent Outer Mongolia side and cause them to lose by 50 points even after 2 yellows and a penalty try.
Wales, well, after the shocker v England there is no doubt our performances have been very good, some definite areas to improve on like scoring tries, but i am happy and since defenses win games i am feeling pretty confident we have more to come in the Autumn. If we come 2nd or 3rd Saturday i will be happy still. As we all know the tournament it only really won on points not PD. We are building and finding strength in depth across the park.

What i want to see is 6 tries v Italy, a shock French win and a tight Scottish victory which they really deserve! (and to buy Wayne Cheater Barnes, a pint of Guinness)

Gwlad wrote:I agree beshocked, been saying it all week that france always have one show in them and we haven't seen it yet and also this could be the shock win that most 6 Nations has. The other could be Scots winning or, and it pains me to say, never discount the Italains. Though sans Parisse they are half the side.

IMO England will win (though i am predicting a French win), Scotland might win and Wales will also win. Point is can France make it tight enough, and can we put 30 plus on Italy.

Matters nought though like i said, if England lose the story will be consistency and how injuries have blighted their tournament after stuffing Wales and setting themselves up for another great performance they have stuttered and stalled, definitely not improved. Of course they need to aspire to more but they won't hear it or admit it.
Fact is though they have, in Joseph and Watson, found really class players and Nowell has impressed me. The challenge they have now is to find a 23 and stick with them, faaar to much chopping and changing to have any real consistency which is what most fans bang on about in terms of them always coming 2nd. Shame they don't realize that consistent selection is worth even more.
Ireland will just be kicking themselves after letting Barnes beat them last week and if they lose to Scots they will have squandered such a great chance to dominate prior to RWC.  Cant really see it though, but Scotland have pushed NZ and Eng recently and definitely have a game in them. Still think Ireland have a sniff at the final of RWC due to their draw, a ssuming of course that Barnes doesn't referee the group match v a resurgent Outer Mongolia side and cause them to lose by 50 points even after 2 yellows and a penalty try.
Wales, well, after the shocker v England there is no doubt our performances have been very good, some definite areas to improve on like scoring tries, but i am happy and since defenses win games i am feeling pretty confident we have more to come in the Autumn. If we come 2nd or 3rd Saturday i will be happy still. As we all know the tournament it only really won on points not PD. We are building and finding strength in depth across the park.

What i want to see is 6 tries v Italy, a shock French win and a tight Scottish victory which they really deserve! (and to buy Wayne Cheater Barnes, a pint  of Guinness)

??????????????

Miss B….in the game thread i predict a french win because i am welsh and it serves my purpose, realistically i think england will win but one lives in hope and i have predicted the last 6 games correctly.

If England can't win this against the worst French team in a decade, then they will definitely have choked. France have already been beaten by Ireland and Wales - this should be a walk in the park for England.

After the last France game when they score a couple of good tries, they could be starting to come together. England need to be at their best and on full alert. They (England) playing last will know what they have to do to win. but so will France. i do hope England win for the good of the team and for the good of all the hard work the coaches have put in to this team. I do not want to be told that the team is growing, we have a lot of injuries. NO EXCUSES.

Wales i feel have all the pressure. playing first up they need to score a lot points (Tries) and not keep relying on the boot of Half penny.
Wales have the talent and the players to pull off a big score. but Italy are at home and will go down fighting.

Ireland being the only team with 10 wins in a row, untill they met Wales that is. are playing Scotland in Scotland and that as been pretty hard for them in the past.
I do feel that Scotland will not want to lose this game. but i think Ireland will be a bit too much for them.

Pot Hale wrote:If England can't win this against the worst French team in a decade, then they will definitely have choked.   France have already been beaten by Ireland and Wales - this should be a walk in the park for England.

Unfortunately that isn't how the frech team work, knowing our luck they will have their best game if the tournament.

If England don't win it, they will be behind kicking themselves. More than any other team- because they should have such a long lead on points difference the tournament would be over if they beat France regardless of what happens.

Three soft tries conceded against Italy, James Haskell running into the post against Wales, don't know how many missed opportunities against Scotland, 2 missed opportunities against Ireland... Their points difference could be about 50 points better than it already is. If they don't win this year, it'll be the biggest missed opportunity since Ireland 2007.

Nathan, last year France saved their best for last too. Got a lot of criticism and came out desperate to win in their final game. Ireland hung on- just. We already had the points difference resolved before kick-off, if not we wouldn't have won the title because rather than chasing a score we were hanging on by the skin of our teeth.

I'm hoping France repeat that performance, but playing in Twickenham is psychologically different to playing in the Stade de France, and for France playing Ireland is seen as an easier and much more winnable game than England. So they might find self-belief and motivation harder to come by this year.

Fingers crossed by kick-off in Twickenham Ireland have got a better points differential than Wales and have set a target for England in double figures... and the French decide to turn up.

England only have themselves to blame if they miss out on points difference, most likely result is Wales putting up a decent score 40+, Ireland will run riot in the 2nd half vs a tired beaten Scotland and England will limp home by a score or two.

Ireland to be crowned champions after being made to sweat for a while.

Biggest Chokers will have to be England for the previous games missed opportunities, running into the posts ffs!

ARU choked before kickoff and 'retired' Steve Walsh before he could cause any more controversies for ARU.

Nahh the real trophy is already in Twickenham. There's a rubber replica for the Ireland game not sure why.

so that we can bounce it over to Italy?

Nice. This Six Nations crowd think of everything. Now how about thinking up a site that actually does things Six Nations organisers, like one that maybe does a live-scores service for untelevised games?? It is the 21st century after all

Wales to win by 30 clear points
Ireland to win by 7 clear points
England to win by 10 clear points

Anything less than the above results will constitute choking.

30 points?! Nice WUM. Losing away to Italy might be choking. But any team would have to do very well to beat them by 30 clear points. VERY well. Ireland have never done it (in Italy). The All Blacks just about did it last time, but the time before only managed 14 points difference. The springboks haven't managed it in Italy the last 3 times.

Winning would be great. A 15 point win would be a very good result. 30 point win would be exceptional I think.

And the choker title goes to....?

Pot Hale wrote:And the choker title goes to....?

I thought it might be Wales for conceding that late try.

Then Hogg for dropping the ball and pretending he had scored.

But really I guess it is England. After all Wales and Ireland did what they had to do, and England came up short.



Yay we won something

Luther Burrell? Killed four breaks with two knock ons and dying with the ball twice. Added to an error strewn performance where he was in no man's land every time France went wide.

Ireland. For not being able to score against Wales during 32 phases.

And then losing to them.

James Haskell, for running into that post all the way back in Round 1.

Griff wrote:30 points?! Nice WUM. Losing away to Italy might be choking. But any team would have to do very well to beat them by 30 clear points. VERY well. Ireland have never done it (in Italy). The All Blacks just about did it last time, but the time before only managed 14 points difference. The springboks haven't managed it in Italy the last 3 times.

Winning would be great. A 15 point win would be a very good result. 30 point win would be exceptional I think.

40 point win is fantastic.

Congratulations England on choking v the 2nd worst side in the tournament. To let france go ahead like that, just awful.

Nobody choked.  Everybody needed as many scores as possible and that inevitably creates space and opportunity for the opposition.

The strange thing for me looking at each game (and no disrespect to France, Scotland or Italy) but each game I saw one team going for something that didn't even involve the other side - not mentally.  
It was as if the other sides didn't even exist - Ireland, Wales and England were playing against scorelines - and when that psychology came into it, all games became very strange.  

Yes, Italy scored, yes, Scotland scored, yes France scored - but each time you could see it was simply a recalibration of a scoreline requirement for Ireland, Wales and England.  The opposition were a distraction (and a BIG one in France's case) but never the enemy.  The enemy was the clock counting down to 80.

It's hard to explain but it was fascinating to see the games that could be played when the enemy wasn't actually the opposing team at all.

I did nearly choke on my aperitif when Ireland passed the ball two or three times in a row....does that count.

Hearing that you drink apéritifs in Munster made me choke....................

It was a pint of murphy's with an olive on a stick

That's better............ carry on.

I dumped the Olive.

I don't drink myself really.  A little at Christmas.  But I might just open an aging bottle of wine tomorrow and just relax quietly and savour.  
Because really, Ireland doesn't get these opportunities much.  The sense of satisfaction at that final whistle in England.... better than last year.

Last year was satisfaction. This year was emotional exhaustion!

And then lots and lots of satisfaction.

SecretFly wrote:Nobody choked.  Everybody needed as many scores as possible and that inevitably creates space and opportunity for the opposition.

The strange thing for me looking at each game (and no disrespect to France, Scotland or Italy) but each game I saw one team going for something that didn't even involve the other side - not mentally.  
It was as if the other sides didn't even exist - Ireland, Wales and England were playing against scorelines - and when that psychology came into it, all games became very strange.  

Yes, Italy scored, yes, Scotland scored, yes France scored - but each time you could see it was simply a recalibration of a scoreline requirement for Ireland, Wales and England.  The opposition were a distraction (and a BIG one in France's case) but never the enemy.  The enemy was the clock counting down to 80.

It's hard to explain but it was fascinating to see the games that could be played when the enemy wasn't actually the opposing team at all.

Fly - these are my thoughts exactly. It was very strange - these games weren't regular contests at all, it was very, dare I say it, "meta"! As such, for all the hyperbole about the tries scored (which were fun!) and drama (which was unbearable), I couldn't count any of the games as classic contests - including the Eng/France match - since they were something very different. Amazing what the build up did to the psychology of the teams in blue.

Gentlemen always come second.

Until we have a proper 4Ns.

Let's sort out the men from the boys in a proper tournament.

Or will Georgia be replacing Italy next season?

SecretFly wrote:Nobody choked.  Everybody needed as many scores as possible and that inevitably creates space and opportunity for the opposition.

The strange thing for me looking at each game (and no disrespect to France, Scotland or Italy) but each game I saw one team going for something that didn't even involve the other side - not mentally.  
It was as if the other sides didn't even exist - Ireland, Wales and England were playing against scorelines - and when that psychology came into it, all games became very strange.  

Yes, Italy scored, yes, Scotland scored, yes France scored - but each time you could see it was simply a recalibration of a scoreline requirement for Ireland, Wales and England.  The opposition were a distraction (and a BIG one in France's case) but never the enemy.  The enemy was the clock counting down to 80.

It's hard to explain but it was fascinating to see the games that could be played when the enemy wasn't actually the opposing team at all.

The day did call into question the kind of motivation that teams need to win, and how they decide to play.

However, for Italy and Scotland, there was no real incentive to oppose.  At one stage in the Scotland game, and also in he French game, I felt that their objective was not to beat the other team, but simply to prevent or frustrate them reaching the PD target.  

Would we have had the same scoreline if this was just the second round of the Championship?   Unlikely.

And yet if you could somehow tap the mindset and approach of the three winning teams today, bottle it, and somehow inject that into them for every game, it would make for some interesting future tests.

Would it be so bad if a coach or player were to say in advance of an opening round match in next year's 6N - "we're not just aiming to win, we want to win by 20 points"?

MarcusHalberstram wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Nobody choked.  Everybody needed as many scores as possible and that inevitably creates space and opportunity for the opposition.

The strange thing for me looking at each game (and no disrespect to France, Scotland or Italy) but each game I saw one team going for something that didn't even involve the other side - not mentally.  
It was as if the other sides didn't even exist - Ireland, Wales and England were playing against scorelines - and when that psychology came into it, all games became very strange.  

Yes, Italy scored, yes, Scotland scored, yes France scored - but each time you could see it was simply a recalibration of a scoreline requirement for Ireland, Wales and England.  The opposition were a distraction (and a BIG one in France's case) but never the enemy.  The enemy was the clock counting down to 80.

It's hard to explain but it was fascinating to see the games that could be played when the enemy wasn't actually the opposing team at all.

Fly - these are my thoughts exactly. It was very strange - these games weren't regular contests at all, it was very, dare I say it, "meta"! As such, for all the hyperbole about the tries scored (which were fun!) and drama (which was unbearable), I couldn't count any of the games as classic contests - including the Eng/France match - since they were something very different. Amazing what the build up did to the psychology of the teams in blue.

It was indeed something very different. But, in my mind, it wasn't Rugby.  In fact, I found it something very un-Rugby.  It was very dramatic.  Simply going out to run up as big a score as possible is not what we are, or should, be about:  Win the match, prove dominance if possible, but never disrespect to the opponent. This took disrespect to a very high level.

However, for Italy and Scotland, there was no real incentive to oppose. At one stage in the Scotland game, and also in he French game, I felt that their objective was not to beat the other team, but simply to prevent or frustrate them reaching the PD target.

Two countries undeserving of reverential respect?

I think so.

Come on Georgia and Romania!

Bring an end to this glass-ceilnged shoooiiisch.

No-one apart from deservees should get a seat at the high table.

But everyone should have a right to be there.