Mike Brown applauds France for not folding, unlike..................

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-3006594/Mike-Brown-hails-France-refusing-fold-unlike-countries-England-finish-second-Six-Nations-points-difference.html

Is he right? France definitely played their best game by a mile against England, but as England fans, we're used to that for all opponents, but did Italy and Scotland play with a proper spirit to win or lose as honourably as they possibly could?

I think they probably did, but England fell short on points difference again due to all our opponents being on their ""A game against us as usual. This factor should be largely negated at the RWC, as that in itself is a big enough motivation for all teams and so the playing field will be leveled. This is why of course, England does rather well at world cups compared to our NH comrades, irrespective of recent 6N results. Bring it on!!!!

Where's the suggestion Italy and Scotland didn't try? He congratulates French for fronting up and playing the way they did (an open game that actually helped England score point on the counter).  Unlike other countries, Scotland and Italy, who were just bad.  I didn't actually read any of the journist guff around it but didn't see that in the quotes.

He got it nearly right. Scotland and Italy did fold like big girls' blouses just to shaft England. But that's fair enough. It was the pesky Frenchies fault for not levelling the playing field and letting us score that final try. And Owens didn't help there (although he did gift us a couple earlier).

Just adds insult to injury for Scotland. Scotland were bad but they don't need to be called cheats as well.

Casting ethical/moral doubt on fellow professional sportsmen - reflects very badly on him and comes across as sour grapes.

Mike Brown has a case of foot in mouth:

IF England hadn't lost to Ireland
IF England hadn't taken all their chances against Scotland
IF England had put more points on Italy

Its all about Ifs and Buts and if England had taken care of the business themselves rather than rely on other people they MIGHT have won.

Brown should look closer to home...

Blame Haskell for running into the post in Cardiff. His forward pass against Scotland. Or perhaps apologise for other running a simple support line?

The english forwards who got in front of & blocked Atwoods? try in Cardiff.

The defence that went to sleep to allow Italy 3 tries at HQ.

Twelvetrees for his forward pass of Nowells non try in Dublin.

The entire team & in particular Bruell for the failure to take chances against Scotland.

And again the entire team for conceding so many points against French side that couldn't kick for toffee & up until that point had averaged a miserly 1 try per game.

How are those grapes, Mike Brown?

#Petulantbrat

Whay he actually said was

Massive credit to the French for the way they fronted up for this game and for the way they played - compared to a few other countries. Fair play to France - they played a game. I don't need to saying anything else. Everyone knows it. It was fast paced, end to end. We played good rugby, they played good rugby. France turned up and made a game of it. They could have easily folded, so it was great to see that from them from a spectator point of view.

Is he wrong? Should Italy and Scotland be congratualted at how they fronted and played? I seem to remember quite a few people on here saying well done to the French during the game, and how it was their best game, etc. No-one said that about the Italians and Scottish

I was about to post very similar Hammer, think a few are getting caught up in journalist guff from the Daily Mail

I was going by what he said on Twitter. Brown feels we, "gave up to easy".

Interesting how when Ireland finished 2nd for a number of seasons they were seen as chokers and underacheivers.... but when it happens to England the tournament format must be flawed or other teams must be cheating.....

The 47-17 win that England had against them was ok though, they obviously fronted up in that game.

Yeah MIke brown should shut his mouth.

England could themselves have put a cricket score on Scotland IF they had taken chances and not messed up.

Ireland took their chances.

Sour Grapes Mike....I'm gutted we didn't win it...but still be dignified!

This is the 4th year in a row we've been second, has anyone mentioned the format being flawed or other teams cheating before this year? (Not that I agree with either of those points)

We've been called chokers for the past 3 years! Plenty by our own fans too

Hammer of Thunor wrote:Whay he actually said was


Massive credit to the French for the way they fronted up for this game and for the way they played - compared to a few other countries. Fair play to France - they played a game. I don't need to saying anything else. Everyone knows it. It was fast paced, end to end. We played good rugby, they played good rugby. France turned up and made a game of it. They could have easily folded, so it was great to see that from them from a spectator point of view.

Is he wrong? Should Italy and Scotland be congratualted at how they fronted and played? I seem to remember quite a few people on here saying well done to the French during the game, and how it was their best game, etc. No-one said that about the Italians and Scottish

When he says "compared to a few other countries." and I don't need to say anything else. Everyone knows it." I think it is blatantly obvious it is a dig at Scotland.

What does everyone know?

Have some cheese with your w(h)ine Mike. If the England attack had fronted up v Scotland and the defence in the first 15 v France, we'd be champs.

BamBam wrote:This is the 4th year in a row we've been second, has anyone mentioned the format being flawed or other teams cheating before this year? (Not that I agree with either of those points)

We've been called chokers for the past 3 years! Plenty by our own fans too

Last year the line was that deciding on points difference was unfair(first time I've ever hear that) - and that as England beat Ireland they were the better side.

Now the story is that Irelands opposition didn't try?

Like I recall the frustrations of 06/07 well but no one owes anyone the title - you have to go out and win it. The top teams are closer than they've ever been so I think we'll see more of these tight finishes and the side that finishes top, in whatever circumstances deserves it.

When you compare what he said to what Youngs said then you see the difference. Youngs was first to congratulate Ireland.

[quote="bedfordwelsh"]The 47-17 win that England had against them was ok though, they obviously fronted up in that game.[/quote

47-17. The same 30 point winning margin as Ireland against Scotland, but then Ireland are so inferior to England, the only possible way for Ireland to match England's score is to have Scotland allow us to run over tries.

Such utter tripe. Thankfully most of England's supporters have more sense.

Yeah Italy definitely folded, you could tell by the way they scored that try right at the end of the game....

There's always been a 'street' edge about Brown. Likes larging it in play, in petulance, in swagger, in defiance and now in lip

Mixed feelings on this. At no point does he accuse Scotland of cheating and it's a gross misrepresentation to say that he did.

Unfortunately it does come across as sour grapes and there's no point saying it. On the other hand he is correct that Scotland were absolutely appalling - terrible performance for a home game at the end of the 6N.

They weren't much better against us though, only difference is we left 20-30 points on the field.

SecretFly wrote:There's always been a 'street' edge about Brown.  Likes larging it in play, in petulance, in swagger, in defiance and now in lip

He does shave his barnet in tribute to Mike Skinner of the Streets (whatever happen to them btw?)

Munchkin wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:The 47-17 win that England had against them was ok though, they obviously fronted up in that game.[/quote

47-17. The same 30 point winning margin as Ireland against Scotland, but then Ireland are so inferior to England, the only possible way for Ireland to match England's score is to have Scotland allow us to run over tries.

Such utter tripe. Thankfully most of England's supporters have more sense.

When you look at that match in the context of that weekend the other 2 were won by 3 and 7 points but did you hear players coming out and said Italy folded thus giving England the edge already. No

thomh wrote:

They weren't much better against us though, only difference is we left 20-30 points on the field.

Therefore, why does it seem such a shock that Ireland would score 40 against them and it be proof that the Scots didn't show up on the day?

They couldn't show up.  Ireland didn't let them show up.

England left 20 or 30 points?  Ireland weren't as profligate  But we did still leave two real chances to improve the try scoring tally and 9 points due to Sexton's wayward boot.

England should have thought themselves lucky that 26 was the target, but no, Scotland didn't man up to Ireland is a better varnish to use.

SecretFly wrote:

thomh wrote:

They weren't much better against us though, only difference is we left 20-30 points on the field.

Therefore, why does it seem such a shock that Ireland would score 40 against them and it be proof that the Scots didn't show up on the day?

It isn't - it's just remarkable how badly Scotland were playing by the end of the tournament given that they gave Wales a real run for it in round 2. At home that Scotland performance was pretty abysmal.

Maybe he should take a leaf out of the Scottish defensive effort IN FRANCE, when we didn't concede a try.
How many tries did France score AT TWICKENHAM??
As last line of defence, you should maybe be looking in the mirror Mike.

Why is Mike so angry all the time?

I was more disappointed with Italy than Scotland to be honest, they just gave up in the 2nd half.

Maybe he should take a leaf out of the Scottish defensive effort IN FRANCE, when we didn't concede a try.
How many tries did France score AT TWICKENHAM??
As last line of defence, you should maybe be looking in the mirror Mike.

He's obviously just a bit gutted. You could pick out several instances of what ifs, the fact of the matter is no one did a grand slam so no one is head and shoulders above. That said it's good to have a few bad losers in your team.

Maybe Ireland just saved their very best til last and Mike should be thankful that they didn't let rip against them?
Maybe Wales should have taken their best game to the English, instead of just turning up in the first half?

Maybe all involved in this debate need to leave the playground? :-D

People seem to fail to understand the dynamics of good sides meeting not so good sides over a series of games.

Good sides tend to warm up.  Not so good sides tend to run down.

Not so good sides have an average quality rating throughout a contest.  Therefore earlier games against warming-up better sides can make them appear better than they actually turn out to be towards the end - when the better sides have warmed up sufficiently to show up real form of lesser sides.

Maybe Ireland just saved their very best til last and Mike should be thankful that they didn't let rip against them?
Maybe Wales should have taken their best game to the English, instead of just turning up in the first half?

Maybe all involved in this debate need to leave the playground? :-D

TightHEAD wrote:Why is Mike so angry all the time?

Because while he plays for one of the top teams, he can not help but realise is probebly is the 4th best full back in the 6 nations

HammerofThunor wrote:Whay he actually said was

Massive credit to the French for the way they fronted up for this game and for the way they played - compared to a few other countries. Fair play to France - they played a game. I don't need to saying anything else. Everyone knows it. It was fast paced, end to end. We played good rugby, they played good rugby. France turned up and made a game of it.  They could have easily folded, so it was great to see that from them from a spectator point of view.

Is he wrong? Should Italy and Scotland be congratualted at how they fronted and played?  I seem to remember quite a few people on here saying well done to the French during the game, and how it was their best game, etc.  No-one said that about the Italians and Scottish

it completely devalues the standard of play from Wales and Ireland.

How would you react if O'Connell was quoted saying France turned up wanting to play 7's?

Pint of Bitter for Mike then. Might just be a consequence of a microphone being too close to him while the nerve was still raw, but he does have the bit of attitude on the pitch as well. Part of what makes him such a great player.

Marshes wrote:Pint of Bitter for Mike then. Might just be a consequence of a microphone being too close to him while the nerve was still raw, but he does have the bit of attitude on the pitch as well. Part of what makes him such a great player.

Yeah I was going to say, this was originally reported by Sky Sports on Saturday evening, post game when he was at his most angry (which for Mike Brown is pretty much spontaneously combusting)

Not a surprise he's gone off on one, but maybe he'd be better served zipping it now rather than responding further on Twitter and what not

The fact is that Mike Brown is not especially big, not especially quick, and not especially skilful. What makes him a very good player is the fact that he is insanely competitive. His comment was particularly graceless, but if anyone from the England team were going to say something like this, you would guess it would be him.

That said, if a player from another team were to say something like this, I'd probably be far more inclined to just think he was an idiot.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:The 47-17 win that England had against them was ok though, they obviously fronted up in that game.[/quote

47-17. The same 30 point winning margin as Ireland against Scotland, but then Ireland are so inferior to England, the only possible way for Ireland to match England's score is to have Scotland allow us to run over tries.

Such utter tripe. Thankfully most of England's supporters have more sense.

When you look at that match in the context of that weekend the other 2 were won by 3 and 7 points but did you hear players coming out and said Italy folded thus giving England the edge already.  No

Does that not support my point Why would any player come out saying that Italy gave England the edge by lying down? Players have more sense, usually, than to spout such utter nonsense.

England had a 30 point victory over Italy. The same margin of points scored by Ireland over Scotland. The same Scotland that were beaten by Italy at Murrayfield....

It is sour grapes. It is petulant. His comment does imply cheating..... "Everybody knows......"

He does need to grow up.

Munchin

Apologies I read your reply wrong way round thought you were in his favour

bedfordwelsh wrote:Munchin

Apologies I read your reply wrong way round thought you were in his favour

I can't fault you. I couldn't make much sense of it either I could have been clearer, Bedford

GavinDragon wrote:it completely devalues the standard of play from Wales and Ireland.

How would you react if O'Connell was quoted saying France turned up wanting to play 7's?

How would I react? Well France went into the game only conceding 46 points in total (approx.). They went into the England game, throwing caution to the wind and their previously tight defence opened up. So, I'd pretty much agree with him.

I'm glad they did that rather than play a negative spoiling game with penalties galour, although I'd had preferred it if defence hadn't been optional by both sides.

HammerofThunor wrote:Whay he actually said was

Massive credit to the French for the way they fronted up for this game and for the way they played - compared to a few other countries. Fair play to France - they played a game. I don't need to saying anything else. Everyone knows it. It was fast paced, end to end. We played good rugby, they played good rugby. France turned up and made a game of it.  They could have easily folded, so it was great to see that from them from a spectator point of view.

Is he wrong? Should Italy and Scotland be congratualted at how they fronted and played?  I seem to remember quite a few people on here saying well done to the French during the game, and how it was their best game, etc.  No-one said that about the Italians and Scottish

Conceding 55 points is bending over I would argue. 

Ireland 1st v Scotland 6th - 30 point differential
England 2nd v France 4th - 20 point differential

Given the relative positions in the final table I don't think those differentials are anything out of the ordinary. Even Carling came out and said brown was stupid to say it

Brown's demeanour knows two flavours - arrrsey and very arrrsey. He never seems to do himself any favours, a diplomat he is not.

That said - what has he actually said here? Not much and not much of story.

offload wrote:Brown's demeanour knows two flavours - arrrsey and very arrrsey.  He never seems to do himself any favours, a diplomat he is not.

That said - what has he actually said here?  Not much and not much of story.

He's actually said here that "Everybody Knows"

Which leads me thankfully into a few delicious lines from one of my favourite songs:

"Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows that the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

Everybody knows that the boat is leaking
Everybody knows that the captain lied
Everybody got this broken feeling
Like their father or their dog just died

Everybody talking to their pockets
Everybody wants a box of chocolates
And a long stem rose
Everybody knows

Everybody knows that you love me baby
Everybody knows that you really do
Everybody knows that you've been faithful
Ah give or take a night or two
Everybody knows you've been discreet
But there were so many people you just had to meet
Without your clothes
And everybody knows"

Thus this is what Brown alluded to

To be fair, Italy folded massively, unrecognisable from the first half! It was embarrassing and if they can't cope for 5 games they shouldn't be in the tournament!

Scotland carried on attempting to play and France who are a better team that Scotland and Italy tried to match England's expansiveness but got beaten by the better team on the day

SecretFly wrote:

offload wrote:Brown's demeanour knows two flavours - arrrsey and very arrrsey.  He never seems to do himself any favours, a diplomat he is not.

That said - what has he actually said here?  Not much and not much of story.

He's actually said here that "Everybody Knows"

Which leads me thankfully into a few delicious lines from one of my favourite songs:

"Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows that the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

Everybody knows that the boat is leaking
Everybody knows that the captain lied
Everybody got this broken feeling
Like their father or their dog just died

Everybody talking to their pockets
Everybody wants a box of chocolates
And a long stem rose
Everybody knows

Everybody knows that you love me baby
Everybody knows that you really do
Everybody knows that you've been faithful
Ah give or take a night or two
Everybody knows you've been discreet
But there were so many people you just had to meet
Without your clothes
And everybody knows"

Thus this is what Brown alluded to

Literally one of the worst songs in the history of music.

I'd say Italy fell to the scrore Wales put on them for a number of reasons....

Fatigue - they'd already played 4 gruelling games and they're not renowned for their fitness. They gave it all in the first half....
Lineout - it and their mauls were rendered useless by Wales (by Charteris)
Scrum - ascendancy in the first half due to Castros dodgy binding and a novice welsh LH in Rob Evans. Gill comes on and the scrum steadies and they have no upperhand there either, they struggled to hold onto the ball in any shape or form.
Welsh mistakes - there was a large amount of unforced errors in the first half, coupled with the scrum dominance from Italy and Wales didnt get too much ball in decent positions. This all changed at halftime, unforced errors were cut out.
Welsh potency - Liam Williams at FB, Scott Williams on the pitch, its no surprise the majority of welsh fans have been calling for Liam to start at FB and Scott Williams to be in the team since the end of last season. Watch how deadly those 2 are with ball in hand, not only against Italy but for the scarlets over the last few seasons. They are gamechangers, and Halfpennys injury (absolutely horrible and I wish him all the best) was one of the best things that could have happened in that game imo.

So no, I dont go along with the idea Brown suggests, Im not even going to go into why the Scots didnt just give up as Brown suggests.

Oh dear, great music IS wasted on the masses, Mick

But nevermind, you'll always have one of the greatest songs ever to hum to:

"Love love me do
You know I love you,
I'll always be true,
So Pleeeee-eeee-eee-eeese, love me do"



Or better still - that great cultural poetry of the ages:

"La, la, la , la, la, la, la
la, la, la, la
Hey Jude.
La, la, la, la, la, la, laaaaa
La, la, la, laaaa
Hey Jude.
Once again now,
La, la, la, la, la, la, la
......

Official Correction: Replace 'La' with 'Na'