Mike Brown applauds France for not folding, unlike..................

First topic message reminder :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-3006594/Mike-Brown-hails-France-refusing-fold-unlike-countries-England-finish-second-Six-Nations-points-difference.html

Is he right? France definitely played their best game by a mile against England, but as England fans, we're used to that for all opponents, but did Italy and Scotland play with a proper spirit to win or lose as honourably as they possibly could?

I think they probably did, but England fell short on points difference again due to all our opponents being on their ""A game against us as usual. This factor should be largely negated at the RWC, as that in itself is a big enough motivation for all teams and so the playing field will be leveled. This is why of course, England does rather well at world cups compared to our NH comrades, irrespective of recent 6N results. Bring it on!!!!

Hey Jude is clearly sung with na's instead of la's. Get your ears cleaned grandpa!

In the last two games in 2014 Italy shipped nearly 100 points. Scotland lost by 50 to Wales - granted they were a man down - but still after last year this years results for those two are not a surprise. Brown needs to point the finger at the England team first, plenty of opportunity to score what was required by the end of the tournament, or even not concede as many.

Oh yeah...so it is.

Shows you how much I listen to them poets -

Italy clearly have not got the playing resources to last a full 5 match competition against world class opposition. Nothing wrong with that except in the latter stages of the tournament they become whipping boys instead of competitors. Should they be in the 6Ns competition? No not really they simply aren't good enough.

Mike Brown's not called angry man for nothing... not the smartest comment to come out with. Though in fairness we are all capable of making silly comments when we're on an emotional high/low, it's just that most of us don't have Mail journalists waiting to pounce on it, or a public that would give a monkeys if they did.

I'm sure when he's calmed down he'd have to concede that Scotland capitulated against England as well, sadly (for me that is, I'm sure the Irish fans aren't too upset) England just didn't take advantage of the many points on offer. If anything Wales are the ones with the most right to grumble, Scotland put up a bit of fight before the Italy defeat, and Wales may well have been lifting the trophy if Scotland played as poorly against them.

MichaelT wrote:In the last two games in 2014 Italy shipped nearly 100 points. Scotland lost by 50 to Wales - granted they were a man down - but still after last year this years results for those two are not a surprise. Brown needs to point the finger at the England team first, plenty of opportunity to score what was required by the end of the tournament, or even not concede as many.

That kinda brings us back to Italy too though. In that people are saying they gave up in the second half...had they not two yellows at one point in that half? 20 minutes with 14 against Wales??? What did people expect Italy to do? Bully a win?

Looking at next years fixtures - its the exact same on the final round and in the same order as Saturday. Times are a bit later - 2.30, 5.00 and 8.00 (!) for the three games. Will lightning strike twice? Or even thrice for Ireland?

Secretfly completely agree - what do people expect from Italy? And heaven forbid whats going to happen when Castrogiavanni and Parisse finish.

You could of course read it the other way and say he considers Italy and Scotland to be much better than their final games show.

The capitulation from Italy was pretty awful, Scotland just aren't very good.

I'm pretty sure if anyone posting here had just slogged their guts and heart out for 80 minutes at Twickenham to just fall short you'd be a little frustrated....I'd be disappointed if anyone in that situation wasn't.

When he says that France did not fold is that apart from the 55 points and 7 tries they shipped.

Brown sounds a bit thick to be honest.

So he's wrong? They were playing at their full abilitiy. Ouch. No need to call people thick.

I like Brown as a player, but he does have an annoying 'it's not fair' aura around him. You see it in his facial expressions on pitch and it detracts from him as a player IMHO. It's not a likeable trait.
Having said that, I don't think his comments are too wide of the mark - Scotland and Italy both have it in them to have given Ireland and Wales a good game, especially as their last game of the 6 Nations and I think this was more along the lines of the point he was trying to make. But no excuses, England went in to the France game knowing what they needed to do and failed, no point blaming the performance of others.

Disappointment is one emotion.  Some people handle the words they use to describe it better.

The inference I take from Brown's words - and of course he was ratty and angry at losing out by such a small margin, I accept it was soon after a major disappointment - but the inference I take from his expressed disappointment is that England deserved the Title because they played all the rugby - and that the other two sides in contention got an easy ride somehow from the same opponents England themselves met in earlier rounds.

No. Not true is all I'm saying to Brown and people who agree with him.  Wales killed off Italy like assassins.  Ireland did what they required against Scotland.... by pretty much killing off them too.  In other earlier rounds perhaps neither Wales nor Ireland would have needed to go for it and wouldn't have.  But they did need to go for it and did.  And they showed the real gap in quality when seriously going for it.

Brown seems to imply that both Wales and Ireland needed 'help' from Italy and Scotland to get their jobs done.  If that's his view, that's an insult to both winners that were by far superior to their opponents.

But it's his opinion and he's entitled to it.  He seems to be a person that prefers his honesty over diplomacy.  So be it.  But people do react in turn to honesty with honesty of their own.

Hoonercat wrote:I like Brown as a player, but he does have an annoying 'it's not fair' aura around him. You see it in his facial expressions on pitch and it detracts from him as a player IMHO. It's not a likeable trait.

On the contrary, it enhances him as a player - it may detract from him as a person, though I don't know him, to know for sure, but surely that back against the wall/all out to get us attitude is one that many pro-sports people use to their advantage? I'm reminded of some (apocryphal I'm sure as he made some huge charitable donations) story going around that Michael Schumacher and his will to win when examined by psychologists, technically made him a sociopath... Basically, to be a pro sports person, the drive inside you is something that most of us don't have, and so losing hurts in a way even the most die-hard fan would struggle to understand. But on Fly's point above, completely agree, we won those matches, Wales/Ireland. No-one threw them.

And so the hate goes on. At this stage I wouldnt swap Brown for any other 15 in the world. Yes he didnt play as well as last year (getting knocked out didnt help) but given he was the player of the tournament last time its not surprising. He isnt as fast as Hogg and cant kick penalties like Halfpenny, but the attitude he brings to the team is priceless.

He's a great 15. No doubt about it. Fire in the belly is what it takes and he has it.

England had a tonne of chances against Scotland but couldn't put them away. Ireland took their chances and were able to rack up the points. Browne and also Andy Nichol are wrong I feel, Ireland were well worth their win, and were 30 points better than Scotland on the day. Scotland just aren't a very good team at the moment.

GLove39 wrote:I was going by what he said on Twitter. Brown feels we, "gave up to easy".

Actually Scotland created as many chances against us as they did against England the week before, and Ireland created less chances against Scotland than England did so I'm not sure whats he's on about.

We maybe got 5 chances to score tries and we took 4 of them, the previous week against Scotland at Twickenham England had about 9 or 10 chances and took 3. If anything Scotland tightened up slightly in terms of their defensive performance.

I reckon Ireland had two clear opportunities to take two more tries, and both Sexton and Madigan left quite a few points behind them.  We're happy now but we did make England's attempt easier actually than it might have been - and we also gave the Championship that final game, given our scoreline made England excited enough to want to kill it.

So a Thank You note should be coming from Brown actually  He'll never be forgotten now.  That day.  That game.  That scoreline.

Similar number of tackles missed, though - 26 and 25. Scotland did what they could, which isn't enough at the moment, and Ireland were simply too strong in every department. Excellent, clinical performance. Brown's comments were both intemperate and inaccurate.

wolfball wrote:

Hoonercat wrote:I like Brown as a player, but he does have an annoying 'it's not fair' aura around him. You see it in his facial expressions on pitch and it detracts from him as a player IMHO. It's not a likeable trait.

On the contrary, it enhances him as a player - it may detract from him as a person, though I don't know him, to know for sure, but surely that back against the wall/all out to get us attitude is one that many pro-sports people use to their advantage? I'm reminded of some (apocryphal I'm sure as he made some huge charitable donations) story going around that Michael Schumacher and his will to win when examined by psychologists, technically made him a sociopath... Basically, to be a pro sports person, the drive inside you is something that most of us don't have, and so losing hurts in a way even the most die-hard fan would struggle to understand. But on Fly's point above, completely agree, we won those matches, Wales/Ireland. No-one threw them.

Brown is extremely competitive, just the type you want in your team, but there are times when he comes across like a brat who can't get his own way.

I think the media, and a number of here, are making rather too much from what Mike Brown actually said.

I called Ireland to win (check my posting history if you don't believe me) purely for the same reason Brown has now articulated - England had by far the toughest opposition of the three teams and that proved to be the case. Italy and Scotland could never have scored 35 points at Twickenham, and as was proven to be the case, both Italy and Scotland lacked the technique and cohesion to halt the momentum once Ireland and Wales got going.

I think Brown is a tough and uncomprising bloke, and these traits are in both his character and his playing style. He's a guy who has made the absolute most of his abilities, and have been extremely consistent over a number of years for England (in fact this tournament has probably been the low point of his England career, not bad considering their second place finish and scoring a bucket load of points).

If he wants to move to Edinburgh, we'd be happy to take him!

rodders wrote:

BamBam wrote:This is the 4th year in a row we've been second, has anyone mentioned the format being flawed or other teams cheating before this year? (Not that I agree with either of those points)

We've been called chokers for the past 3 years! Plenty by our own fans too

Last year the line was that deciding on points difference was unfair(first time I've ever hear that) - and that as England beat Ireland they were the better side.

Now the story is that Irelands opposition didn't try?

Like I recall the frustrations of 06/07 well but no one owes anyone the title - you have to go out and win it. The top teams are closer than they've ever been so I think we'll see more of these tight finishes and the side that finishes top, in whatever circumstances deserves it.

Who is using any of those lines?!

Cartoon in the Belfast Telegraph;

One thing I do know now is POC's voice doesnt match the rest of him. I ve always imagined a Barry White style deepness. How I havent heard him speak in 15 or whatever years i dont know.

No 7&1/2 wrote:One thing I do know now is POC's voice doesnt match the rest of him. I ve always imagined a Barry White style deepness. How I havent heard him speak in 15 or whatever years i dont know.

??? Neither do I 7&1/2! Where the hell have you been during all the pre and post match interviews? But yes, he looks like a Commander Orc but speaks like a massive baby.

Just realised why. His team have whooped us mainly for the last 10 years so Ive avoided all interviews sulking.

i wouldnt swap mike brown for any other 15 in world rugby. warts and all.

now can we just have dylan "nasty" hartley back to his usual self please?

Brown does neither himself nor his team any favours.
England had the least to do in terms of points difference, and were at home against a fractured French side. It looked to me as though if anything it was France that gave up the game when they realised they couldn't win, and that is borne out by their tackle success of 81% as against Scotland 87% and Italy 86%.

Brown would be better served being a bit more self-critical and work out where he and the team went wrong rather than peddling this 'poor me' victim mentality.

The Great Aukster wrote:Brown does neither himself nor his team any favours.
England had the least to do in terms of points difference, and were at home against a fractured French side. It looked to me as though if anything it was France that gave up the game when they realised they couldn't win, and that is borne out by their tackle success of 81% as against Scotland 87% and Italy 86%.

Brown would be better served being a bit more self-critical and work out where he and the team went wrong rather than peddling this 'poor me' victim mentality.

Oh a bit of fact to toy with Brown's concept? Nice.

England/France game was special (because many of us were deeply emotionally involved in it too - as much as the French and as much as the English) but everyone knows conventional defending died a death in that game.

The Great Aukster wrote:Brown does neither himself nor his team any favours.
England had the least to do in terms of points difference, and were at home against a fractured French side. It looked to me as though if anything it was France that gave up the game when they realised they couldn't win, and that is borne out by their tackle success of 81% as against Scotland 87% and Italy 86%.

Brown would be better served being a bit more self-critical and work out where he and the team went wrong rather than peddling this 'poor me' victim mentality.

Considering the quality of opposition England actually had the most to do and that is undeniable and when you're scoring 5 tries it isn't the signs of a team giving up.

Imagine if England had got the try and won yesterday.

Cue Cian Healy looking glum at a darkened empty Murrayfield:

"France didn't bother to defend at all, it was like watching basketball, not rugby union. England shouldn't have been anywhere near +37 on the final round anyway. They only had that because Italy folded in the second round and handed them 30 points on a platter. They always do that in the second round, and they always seem to get England in the second round too. Everyone knows. I don't have to say anymore. Fair play to Italy and Scotland for trying to keep scoring right at the end - they didn't give up."

SecretFly wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Brown does neither himself nor his team any favours.
England had the least to do in terms of points difference, and were at home against a fractured French side. It looked to me as though if anything it was France that gave up the game when they realised they couldn't win, and that is borne out by their tackle success of 81% as against Scotland 87% and Italy 86%.

Brown would be better served being a bit more self-critical and work out where he and the team went wrong rather than peddling this 'poor me' victim mentality.

Oh a bit of fact to toy with Brown's concept?    Nice.

England/France game was special (because many of us were deeply emotionally involved in it too - as much as the French and as much as the English) but everyone knows conventional defending died a death in that game.

dumb use of statistics can make you look..well...dumb. comparing france's tackling success against england with scotland and italy's vs ireland and wales? zero common denominators.

irelands tackle success against England was also 82%.

which goes to prove that England's attack is the reason both France and Ireland could only manage 81 and 82% tackle success. unless ireland werent bothering against england? probably true if you believe ireland were cruising as i have read plenty of times around here. Whereas Scotland and Italy's tackle success against Ireland and Wales is in line with other team's against Ireland and Wales. Further reinforcing the point.

Pot Hale wrote:Imagine if England had got the try and won yesterday.  

Cue Cian Healy looking glum at a darkened empty Murrayfield:

"France didn't bother to defend at all, it was like watching basketball, not rugby union.   England shouldn't have been anywhere near +37 on the final round anyway.  They only had that because Italy folded in the second round and handed them 30 points on a platter.   They always do that in the second round, and they always seem to get England in the second round too.  Everyone knows. I don't have to say anymore.  Fair play to Italy and Scotland for trying to keep scoring right at the end - they didn't give up."

Ah now the genuine old post-Six Nations fun starts.

It was a phoney war there for two days.  "Oh yous were superb", "No, we insist, it was your lads that were remarkable", "We think the both of your lads were fantastic"  "Brill!!!"  "Greatest day in World Rugby so far in Time"

But now the truth begins to leak out.  "Yis were schit!!! - the opposition let yis win!!!"  "And you were crap, the guys that played you couldn't keep out a bunch of old ladies going to bingo"

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Brown does neither himself nor his team any favours.
England had the least to do in terms of points difference, and were at home against a fractured French side. It looked to me as though if anything it was France that gave up the game when they realised they couldn't win, and that is borne out by their tackle success of 81% as against Scotland 87% and Italy 86%.

Brown would be better served being a bit more self-critical and work out where he and the team went wrong rather than peddling this 'poor me' victim mentality.

Oh a bit of fact to toy with Brown's concept?    Nice.

England/France game was special (because many of us were deeply emotionally involved in it too - as much as the French and as much as the English) but everyone knows conventional defending died a death in that game.

dumb use of statistics can make you look..well...dumb. comparing france's tackling success against england with scotland and italy's vs ireland and wales? zero common denominators.

irelands tackle success against England was also 82%.

which goes to prove that England's attack is the reason both France and Ireland could only manage 81 and 82% tackle success. unless ireland werent bothering against england? probably true if you believe ireland were cruising as i have read plenty of times around here.  Whereas Scotland and Italy's tackle success against Ireland and Wales is in line with other team's against Ireland and Wales. Further reinforcing the point.

That's a theory some of us take seriously. They certainly proved they have another gear. And even that's still rusty with 40 on the scoreline. Not a patch on the smoothness of England and Wales - yet.

I think this is right.

England focused too much on attack and forgot about the other end of the pitch and letting teams in e.g. Italy, France and Ireland.

England had France exactly where they wanted them at half-time. 27-15. Perfect platform to build on and just slowly reel in the points and frustrate France.

not sure england focused too much on attack. yes we lost defensive shape against italy and france when the mindset was clearly very attack oriented. but we won both those games comfotably.

where we really messed up was at the breakdown against ireland, and in our finishing against scotland.

Its a crap and unnecessary comment, for a pro player to suggest other pro players have somehow not fronted up is pretty damn low.

England let France in so often which forced them to become more ambitious and the game opened up….I won't comment about Sctoland but since the italians scored a try in the last move of the game for brown to lower everyone's perception of a great weekend of rugby to his level is a disgrace.

Shame on him.

"Its a crap and unnecessary comment, for a pro player to suggest other pro players have somehow not fronted up is pretty damn low."

actually, andy nicol suggested it post-match, about Scotland

jiffy suggested it on scrum v about italy and scotland

there's just a lot of fake outrage here from people who love to hate brown. not his brightest remark, but surely not that far wide of the mark?

quinsforever wrote:"Its a crap and unnecessary comment, for a pro player to suggest other pro players have somehow not fronted up is pretty damn low."

actually, andy nicol suggested it post-match, about Scotland

jiffy suggested it on scrum v about italy and scotland

there's just a lot of fake outrage here from people who love to hate brown. not his brightest remark, but surely not that far wide of the mark?

Outrageous remark.

I rate brown, though i think he is a bit over rated at the moment and not a classy guy. Point is that sort of drivel has no place coming from players.

Now if Gatland said it we would all be justifiably up in arms, because he is Welsh coach.

I agree Scots were dismal but Italainss were not and they didn't have Parisse. Again, its a sportsman who is unsporting, just can't accept his side didn't do enough. Maybe if England had fronted up v Scotland and put them to the sword with all the chances they fluffed, then they wouldn't have come 3rd.

I was outraged at Italy for imploding against Wales. I'm a petulant brat when I lose at FIFA on the Playstation. Some people just don't take disappointment well. I'm sure that when Brown cools off he'll know England could have scored more against Scotland and not leaked those tries against Italy.

quinsforever wrote:

there's just a lot of fake outrage here from people who love to hate brown. not his brightest remark, but surely not that far wide of the mark?

yeah...wide indeed to be honest. Wales destroyed Italy - 14th side in the world with no Parisse and two yellow cards????? Will Brown defenders give it a rest? Italy were going to fight back against that Welsh whirlpool? They're lucky it wasn't a 100+

Same with Scotland. Where were they going to fight back? - the Irish were hunting in packs and in too firey a mood to play their 'boring' kick and collect game.
Brown didn't really think Italy and Scotland rolled over at all. He simply wished Wales and Ireland had. It certainly was the publicity going into the game that Ireland itself might roll over No shock advanced about that one as I recall last week.

France, who had given up I think 2 tries in 4 games, conceded 7 against England.  4 of them came from breaks outside the 10m line and their kicking percentage was 44%.  With that in mind I would say complaints about any other teams are a bit unwarranted.

Id just like to point out that Wales' 2013 victory doesnt count either because England chose to fold.

Gwlad wrote:

quinsforever wrote:"Its a crap and unnecessary comment, for a pro player to suggest other pro players have somehow not fronted up is pretty damn low."

actually, andy nicol suggested it post-match, about Scotland

jiffy suggested it on scrum v about italy and scotland

there's just a lot of fake outrage here from people who love to hate brown. not his brightest remark, but surely not that far wide of the mark?

Outrageous remark.

I rate brown, though i think he is a bit over rated at the moment and not a classy guy. Point is that sort of drivel has no place coming from players.

Now if Gatland said it we would all be justifiably up in arms, because he is Welsh coach.

I agree Scots were dismal but Italainss were not and they didn't have Parisse. Again, its a sportsman who is unsporting, just can't accept his side didn't do enough. Maybe if England had fronted up v Scotland and put them to the sword with all the chances they fluffed, then they wouldn't have come 3rd.

At least you've changed the joke but I still like to acknowledge that Wales finished 3rd!

Maybe Brown expected that France would turn up and not show the slightest interest in the game?
We have all seen French club sides just not bother when they are away from home and have nothing to play for.

You've all got it wrong. Brown was giving credit to France and referring to England who rolled over. After all it was England who shipped 35 points in the final game. Scotland only shipped 30 points to a better team.

The young lad was only giving himself a kick up the backside.

Engine#4 wrote:France, who had given up I think 2 tries in 4 games, conceded 7 against England.  4 of them came from breaks outside the 10m line and their kicking percentage was 44%.  With that in mind I would say complaints about any other teams are a bit unwarranted.

Apparently facts and statistics don't count E4, such scientific analysis is irrelevant compared to Yoda Brown when spoken he has.

The arrogance of saying that Italy and Scotland were giving it a good go is astounding! All Brown is saying is he expected more.

So Brown expected Scotland to play better against Ireland than they did against England? England didn't take their chances, and Ireland did. Brown should look closer to home.