Miami Masters 1000 Thread.

[temporary21]

First topic message reminder :

Cue the 80's music! Roll up roll up for all things Miami!

[CaledonianCraig]

Spin it any way you want Murray is B level tennis player. Folds away mentally and can't beat the 3 above this has nothing to do with his back he has reached his peak in 2012/13 and is now not on a downward curve.

That being the case then the whole of men's tennis is B level outwith Djokovic.

[HM Murdock]

Of course there is another possibility for the nature of Djokovic's run of success. He has elevated himself onto a new level that others just can't reach or replicate for any stretch of time to compete with him.

He's playing very well. The last 6 months are probably his best since 2011.

His main rivals have all dropped their level and/or consistency though. That's definitely a factor.

[CaledonianCraig]

Of course there is another possibility for the nature of Djokovic's run of success. He has elevated himself onto a new level that others just can't reach or replicate for any stretch of time to compete with him.

His main rivals have all dropped their level and/or consistency though. That's definitely a factor.

Oh most definitely. Like I have said on other debates lately the slam winners and dominant forces in tennis are the most consistent performers of their time and at the moment that man is definitely Novak Djokovic.

[Calder106]

Well done to Novak. When Andy wavered at the start of the third set he made sure that he never got any easy points and just dominated him. Andy's first serve dropped badly and some very poor overheads cost him. However the number of times Novak was hitting very close to the baseline had to be admired.

[Jahu]

Djoko is terrorizing the tennis world.

Well, so did Fed a few years, just that Djoko's tennis is as fun as milking cows.

[It Must Be Love]

Djokovic has been edgy a times so far this year- but has suitably stepped up his game in the biggest moments.
Murray is playing at a similar level perhaps he was 2009-2011; good enough to beat most of the tour, but struggling to raise his game in the big moments.

[greengoblin]

Congratulations to the most boring no 1 tennis has ever had. Commiserations to the most boring player to win a slam. These two really try to outdo each other don't they?

I wonder if Murray's family ever bought his Wimbledon triumph dvd? Probably not, it was the ugliest final I've ever seen. Shame, he used to have variety when he was younger.

[It Must Be Love]

Congratulations to the most boring no 1 tennis has ever had.

Djokovic matches can be entertaining to watch, and I'd still prefer to watch Djokovic-Murray to Raonic-Kyrgios/Karlovic.

What I would say is this, Djokovic-Murray matchup isn't great because both players are quite similar, and recently there's been a sort of inevitability about the winner- which also brings down the drama and entertainment value.

[Jahu]

IMBL, thx for inventing the hot water.

[Josiah Maiestas]

Monte Carlo in a week surely Novak is not playing that? The slow hardcourt dominator needs his spa treatment and his wife needs to be kept satisfied intimately

[Jahu]

Yeah, he will be welcomed as a hero to his tax-free Monaco

[Silver]

Bravo Novak. What a tennis player that man is.

Soo Novaks only lost twice soo far this year? Karlovic, and Fed on a fast custom court...

Andys playing some nice stuff now, but Novaks too much for anybody for now. For the sake of a competitive tour let us hope Rafa find his FHDTL again

See HM's post directly after yours, Djok is truly awesome on slow HC. Way too good for everyone else. He's also won Dubai many times - he just got outplayed there this year. Nothing to do with the court, everything to do with the opponent.

Right now we have about three players capable of troubling Novak for the entire clay season. That does not bode well! Federer and Nadal had better turn up in good nick, otherwise we could see wholesale domination. The rest of them sure as hell aren't up for it.

[Belovedluckyboy]

1) I don't think Novak elevated himself above others, he's just fitter than the others, so much so that he outlasted the others, like vs Klizan, Dolgo and now Murray. If he's that much better than the others, he would've beaten them in straight sets instead of struggling to beat them.

2) I don't think its a red hot Rafa that Novak had faced in 2014 FO, yet Novak still couldn't beat him. Let's see which Rafa turns up to play this clay season before jumping into any conclusion. There're Stan, Kei and also Fed who all could play well on clay, so let's not get ahead of ourselves. If Novak carries on playing like this, I doubt he could go far on clay. He's already feeling mentally tired during Miami, and clay is just one week away!

3) As for Murray, I know he would mess it up even when he's ahead, he always does that vs Novak, it's as if he couldn't believe that he could beat Novak. Murray clearly has the game to beat Novak, especially when Novak isn't playing at his best level, but, Murray always let the chances slipped away, by playing too passively, or simply choosing the wrong shots at crucial moments. He still goes down the attritional route vs Novak, and that's how good Novak is, in drawing his opponent into an attritional war when he has to. It's only on clay at the FO, that Rafa could overcome the attritional Novak; or on quick HCs that Fed could beat him without going the attritional route.

[socal1976]

Well I make that 6 points in a row lost by the player who had a smash in the point.
Djokovic - long, wide, mishit, played it safe
Murray - played it safe, net

Admittedly I have missed the odd point, the last point in that game my 2 year old son fell off the chair at a crucial moment, so I have no idea what happened, had to wait for the add break to see that the match is all but done.

I really don't know how to explain those atrocious smashes Djokovic really has one of the worst overheads of any top pro. In today's game players are just not as accustomed to play the ball out of the air. His biggest problem on that shot is that he has too much time to think about and when he is tense doesn't move his feet into the right position and is lunging.

[socal1976]

Murray seems to be rounding into shape but has to wonder about how to close the gap with Novak. I agree with those that say his physique is to bulky for the grind of the tour and that it has hurt his mobility as well. To me he should lose weight. 7 losses in a row is very tough for Andy. But he has to find away to keep his cool. I feel like when he gets angry and starts doing all the yelling he starts getting more tired as he expends a lot of mental energy that should be focused on his game and the result.

[It Must Be Love]

1) I don't think Novak elevated himself above others, he's just fitter than the others, so much so that he outlasted the others, like vs Klizan, Dolgo and now Murray. If he's that much better than the others, he would've beaten them in straight sets instead of struggling to beat them.

Hmmm.
Well I think Djokovic is playing well this year, but not as well as 2011, the 2015 Djokovic is still a break streaky and sees his form fluctuate during a match.
He hasn't dropped too many sets, but when it does go to 3 I think it's because he's lost focus. I wouldn't say he's struggling to beat anyone tbh.

2) I don't think its a red hot Rafa that Novak had faced in 2014 FO, yet Novak still couldn't beat him. Let's see which Rafa turns up to play this clay season before jumping into any conclusion.

After Nadal's win against Murray in Rome, I think Nadal actually started playing some pretty good tennis. In the QF, SF, F of French Open Nadal was actually in stunning form (especially his incredibly demolition of Andy).
I'd say the French Open is in Nadal's hands as long as he can play his best like in the past, but atm he's not at that level; so I'd agree with you on that.

There're Stan, Kei and also Fed who all could play well on clay, so let's not get ahead of ourselves. If Novak carries on playing like this, I doubt he could go far on clay. He's already feeling mentally tired during Miami, and clay is just one week away!

He'll have a weeks break, and is only playing the Masters 1000 in the clay season before FO; so I think he'll be just fine mentally and physically.

3) As for Murray, I know he would mess it up even when he's ahead, he always does that vs Novak, it's as if he couldn't believe that he could beat Novak. Murray clearly has the game to beat Novak, especially when Novak isn't playing at his best level, but, Murray always let the chances slipped away, by playing too passively, or simply choosing the wrong shots at crucial moments.

Totally agree with you here. Murray seems to have an inferiority complex when playing Djokovic these days.

[Belovedluckyboy]

Novak didn't struggle to beat anyone? Remember Dolgo, and now Murray? You think he dropped the first set vs Dolgo because he lost focus?? What match were you watching?

Rafa in red hot form? He dropped a set vs Ferrer in the FO QF, and Ferrer admitted in not putting his best effort in that match after Rafa leveled it. Rafa was playing poorly at Rome, almost every match went the distance, how could he be in red hot form?? He couldn't even beat Novak at Rome, when Novak didn't play that much on clay, having skipped Madrid. At the FO, Novak always had a bit of struggle during the tournament, never ever reached the final without dropping a set, but he always reached at least the SF since 2011, so he's battle hardened when he reached the final. As for Rafa, I would say the last time he's in red hot form at the FO was in 2012, not dropping a set until the final.

[It Must Be Love]

Novak didn't struggle to beat anyone? Remember Dolgo, and now Murray? You think he dropped the first set vs Dolgo because he lost focus?? What match were you watching?

I don't think he was struggling against Murray today, he was neck and neck for the first two sets- then pulled away in the third.
OK against Dolgo he did seem to struggle for the first one and a half sets- fair enough. However his typical match this year is not represented by his poor match against Dolgo.

Rafa in red hot form? He dropped a set vs Ferrer in the FO QF, and Ferrer admitted in not putting his best effort in that match after Rafa leveled it.  Rafa was playing poorly at Rome, almost every match went the distance, how could he be in red hot form??  He couldn't even beat Novak at Rome, when Novak didn't play that much on clay, having skipped Madrid.  At the FO, Novak always had a bit of struggle during the tournament, never ever reached the final without dropping a set, but he always reached at least the SF since 2011, so he's battle hardened when he reached the final.  As for Rafa, I would say the last time he's in red hot form at the FO was in 2012, not dropping a set until the final.

The start of the clay season was poor from Rafa, not great in Monte Carlo, Barcelona, Madrid, or even the early part of Rome.
However after he beat Murray, he began to play pretty well in my opinion. Put up a decent fight against Djokovic in Rome final.
I don't think his French Open overall performance was as good as previous years, but his final 3 matches were in my opinion superb displays, especially the Murray match.

[Belovedluckyboy]

IMBL, I was referring to this Miami tournament that Novak was struggling, why talked about his other tournaments?

Rafa played well vs Murray at FO last year, I won't say he's red hot, rather, Murray wasn't playing at his Rome level, moreover Murray had a five set match vs Monfils or Kohl (can't remember who) before that.

[Belovedluckyboy]

Yes, Novak was struggling to hold serve. It's Murray putting pressure on his second serve, the way Murray was returning.. It's just that when Murray broke serve, he couldn't hold on to the break and got broken the very next game.

[Haddie-nuff]

Novak is winning by virtue of the fact the others are not playing that well ;Neither is Novak imo he looked decidedly shaky and nervous today .. but at this moment he is better than the rest. He is looking vulnerable but nobody has raised their game enough to beat him.

[laverfan]

If anyone mirrors Djokovic's game into theirs, they are unlikely to win. When Murray chose to mirror Djokovic for every point, he was lucky to get a third set.

"It was just a physical battle between the two of us that play similar game," Djokovic said. "We haven't served that well, so we haven't had that many free points, as a matter of fact. With first or second serves, we needed to earn every single point, to work for it. That's why this particular match was very tough."

http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/Tennis/2015/03/13/Miami-Sunday-Final-Djokovic-Murray.aspx

If Del Potro was in good nick, he could compete, but his repeated injuries are effectively the death knell of an otherwise rising career and star.

[Born Slippy]

He could try and get fitter, but he can't go down the muscle route again. He's only moving well again because he lost a few kilos in the winter. Before that his back was creaking carrying the cargo.

As for Novak can't win Paris JM, he totally can. He's never been this far ahead of Rafa. Obviously we'll have to see where they both are come Paris, but he's only been fractions away in the past against a red hot Rafa. Novak looks stronger now, and I question if Rafa will get close to his clay best in time.

I refuse to believe he isn't fit enough. Three years ago he went toe to toe with Novak for 5 sets - and I thought the rallies that day were far more brutal. Is it really credible that he is now not fit enough to play more than 2 sets - especially bearing in mind he was dictating most of the points yesterday? Sadly, its a mental problem in my view. He has just got to keep trying.

[Danny_1982]

BS - do you think he's as fit as Novak? I don't. That's not a criticism because Novak is a freak. But he's the man they have to get past. Yesterday he physically went away. He even said in his post match interview 'sorry for fading away but my legs were tired'.

So it depends on your definition of fit enough. He's probably in the top 3 physically in the game. But he's just by his own admission been outlasted by the guy he's trying to beat most.

[Born Slippy]

No, I don't think he is as fit as Novak. He never has been and never will. No matter how hard he trains, he won't get to Novak's level. In fact, I doubt he is actually top 20 in terms of endurance fitness. He simply isn't naturally built for that.

However, even in the Miami heat, I am having a hard time believing that 2 sets against Novak, having had a days rest, should be that tiring to mean that fitness is the deciding factor in the 3rd. It seems to me it has to have been at least partially mental.

[LuvSports!]

He was physically shot in their US open '14 match after 2 brutal sets!

In US open '12 he oulasted Novak.
Imo he isn't as fit now post lendl.

[Jahu]

Yes, ladies have never made a guy work hard, except in bed.

Andy needs a father figure coach, rough and tough, slap him nicely and make him work.

He can't beat a 80% Djoko in Miami which is his main home, what a joke.

[Calder106]

If anyone mirrors Djokovic's game into theirs, they are unlikely to win. When Murray chose to mirror Djokovic for every point, he was lucky to get a third set.
If Del Potro was in good nick, he could compete, but his repeated injuries are effectively the death knell of an otherwise rising career and star.

In what way was he lucky to get a third set ? Didn't lose serve all set and broke to love at 5-4. Wouldn't have said he was unlucky if he lost the set but definitely wasn't lucky to win it. Well beaten in the last set and as I have said previously the better player over the full match won. Well done Novak.

[Danny_1982]

Murray's comments after the match, when asked about losing 7 in a row to Novak:

"I need to look at why that is."

"At the Australian Open it was mental, but today it was physical. In the third set I had nothing in my legs."

[Danny_1982]

He was physically shot in their US open '14 match after 2 brutal sets!

In US open '12 he oulasted Novak.
Imo he isn't as fit now post lendl.

I agree. I think the post surgery year plays a big part. He admits now that he couldn't push himself as hard in his physical training during 2014. Now he can, but perhaps he's still playing catch up.

Whatever the reason, he's not as fit as he was.

[JuliusHMarx]

A 3-set match where fitness was a factor in the result. Is that even possible?

[lags72]

A 3-set match where fitness was a factor in the result. Is that even possible?

For a tennis player of the calibre of Andy Murray - who has of course shown over the years just what he is capable of on the very biggest stages - you would think not.

But ....based on his own words, carried on BBC Radio this morning (and as quoted above by Danny1982), you have to say ......yes

It's undoubtedly a worry - not least, ahead of the three remaining Slams ; although a lot can change within a matter of weeks/months.

[Jahu]

They spend 2-3h a day on the Gym/training, so whats the story behind I was legless?

Disaster.

[laverfan]

If anyone mirrors Djokovic's game into theirs, they are unlikely to win. When Murray chose to mirror Djokovic for every point, he was lucky to get a third set.
If Del Potro was in good nick, he could compete, but his repeated injuries are effectively the death knell of an otherwise rising career and star.

In what way was he lucky to get a third set ? Didn't lose serve all set and broke to love at 5-4. Wouldn't have said he was unlucky if he lost the set but definitely wasn't lucky to win it. Well beaten in the last set and as I have said previously the better player over the full match won. Well done Novak.

Murray had 1/2 Bps converted, while Djokovic was 4/4 on Bps in set2. In third set set, it was 8/11 for Djokovic, while 1/1 for Murray.

Djokovic has had issues serving out matches, almost throughout his career. He gets tight, inexplicably. At 4-5, he was ripe for the taking. The Klizan match was very similar, as was Dolgopolov. v Klizan, Djokovic lost the second set 7-5, but won the first 6-0, and third at 6-1.

If Murray had played a bit more attacking tennis in the third (and the first as well), he had the momentum after winning the second set. Murray, losing a third, at 6-4 rather than 6-0 would have been better for Murray's confidence.

Counterpunching against Djokovic does not work, and Murray keeps doing that, rather than attack.

Nadal  (v Djokovic) makes it an even more of a physical battle, so Nadal comes out the winner, due to Djokovic's lapses.

I agree with HB, practice the darn OH smash 10,000,000 times before the RG.

PS: http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/Tennis/2015/4/14/Miami-Final-Brain-Game-Djokovic-Murray.aspx

[Calder106]

Having less break points in a set doesn't equate to a player being lucky if he wins the set.

[Born Slippy]

Especially when he would have had the same number if he hadn't been good enough to take the first one at 0-40! I also thought he was aggressive throughout the opening two sets so I may have been watching a different match to LF!

[CaledonianCraig]

Odd comment LF. As others have said in no way was Murray lucky to win the second set. He got the solitary break of serve taking his chance when it came. The first set he lost because he had his chances and never took them such is the way of tennis. When you look at it like that Andy was very close to cracking the hoodoo.

[Josiah Maiestas]

Think it's time Murray changed his attention to training the likes of Kyle Edmund and Liam Broady .. with them they might actually show up in the last set of a match with Djokvic. Murray went gung-ho and would DIE on the court to beat Novak for those 2 slams he won, he is now not even putting in full effort on the final set of his FAV masters tournament.

[lags72]

Think it's time Murray changed his attention to training the likes of Kyle Edmund and Liam Broady .. with them they might actually show up in the last set of a match with Djokvic. Murray went gung-ho and would DIE on the court to beat Novak for those 2 slams he won, he is now not even putting in full effort on the final set of his FAV masters tournament.

JM - I would respectfully suggest you re-assess your comments here, because to me they sound like no more than the ramblings of an armchair 'expert' - and I am pretty sure you can do better.

I'm as keen as anyone to see youngsters like Edmund and Broady progress, we sure do need some fresh new blood in the sport. But it might be just a little early to imply that they could perform better than Murray against an in-form World No 1 currently enjoying one of his best-ever streaks.

It's easy to claim that Murray is not "even putting in full effort". Ok, the third set collapse was very worrying, and it's also fair to say that in several of his recent clashes with Djoko he has not provided the sort of challenge (at least not for the entirety of a match) that you would expect from a top five player. BUT if he has some sort of deep-rooted physical ailment or lack of fitness that is causing him to tire, then it is, in reality, not a question of 'effort'.

Murray is a top athlete, and has the benefit of a standard of training facilities & professional advice available to very few people. And, yes, he has all day, every day, to get himself into proper shape, and keep himself there. That said, he is still constructed of flesh & bones like you and me. He is not some piece of machinery that performs the same function to the same level every time. If you were running a marathon for which you had trained hard, but towards the latter stages you felt your legs giving up on you for no (immediately) discernible reason, I doubt you would be too happy if the only judgement people made of you was that you were not "even putting in full effort".

[Jahu]

lags, a little too personal you are taking this Andy thing.

So unless you have his Wedding Invitation as his friend, cool it down man, you are sounding like his mom, with that defense.

Yes, no one knows whats bothering him, he is not saying it, so we are guesstimating here the potential things.

Don't be so laggy and all jitter

[Silver]

I honestly don't think Andy played badly at all. That standard would've wiped out most of the tour with ease, and IMO he was arguably the better player for the first two sets. The difference between them seemed to be that Novak dug in and managed to hang around in every single point repeatedly, played the crucial points much better, and kept his intensity up to capitalise when Murray dipped horribly. Djokovic has immense mental fortitude to retain his belief when he was having the ball absolutely hammered at him for two sets.

I'm still disappointed in Murray though. In very favourable conditions, with a pretty tired Novak across the net, and playing some very good tennis for much of the match...he still ultimately failed and got bagelled in the process. Hopefully this will prove to him once and for all that he will never ever beat Djokovic playing like this.

Incidentally, is it time to accept that Djokovic now has more variety to his game than Murray? I think so.

[Guest]

I will give Andy his due. He actually played aggressive tennis for the first 2 sets and couldve run out in 2 sets had he been able to hold on to his serve. Djokovic again showing why he is the best on tour at the moment.

The match very much mirrored their previous encounters, break, break back, break, break back again. So tipsy tervy.

[HM Murdock]

Incidentally, is it time to accept that Djokovic now has more variety to his game than Murray? I think so.

In his game - yes.

In his repertoire - no.

There's a lot that Andy is not bringing to the party for some reason.

[HM Murdock]

Also, to give Andy some credit, he has scored more ranking points than anyone but Novak in the year so far.

He's over 500 points ahead of third place (Berdych).

Despite the residual disappointment, he's had a very good start to the season.

[Calder106]

From what I could see Djokovic was hitting much closer to the baseline than Murray. Frequently hitting it or being within inches. That was giving him the advantage in a number of the rallies even when Murray had looked to be on top of them initially. As the commentator said hitting the baseline as often as Novak was is not lucky it's great tennis.

[Danny_1982]

Yeah good points about Andy's form being good. Not just in playing well in getting to big matches against Novak, but also for looking his equal for 3/4 of two of the finals he's played him in.

1 mental capitulation, 1 physical capitulation... But if those hadn't happened we might be talking about Andy looking better than ever! That's the frustration, the lines are thin.

If he plays as well at Wimbledon as he has in AO or Miami he'll be extremely tough to beat on that surface.

[CaledonianCraig]

Yeah good points about Andy's form being good. Not just in playing well in getting to big matches against Novak, but also for looking his equal for 3/4 of two of the finals he's played him in.

1 mental capitulation, 1 physical capitulation... But if those hadn't happened we might be talking about Andy looking better than ever! That's the frustration, the lines are thin.

If he plays as well at Wimbledon as he has in AO or Miami he'll be extremely tough to beat on that surface.

I saw the defeat as a step in the right direction. He got a few things right but still needs to work on one or two other things. I liked that he was getting his big shots off quicker in rallies to put him on the front foot so aggression was better. His serve looked to function better as well. However, the variety was still missing with not enough slice and drop shots used (if any) and he was still sitting too deep behind the baseline. He competed much better as well and if he had of held his serve after breaking Novak in the first set the result would have been different.

[Josiah Maiestas]

Well lags I was on my armchair when I posted that as it's a bank holiday.. Murray couldn't wait to come off court when he was only 3-0 down with still time to comeback and if his back was so bad why doesn't it come in to play against Berdych?

[socal1976]

No, I don't think he is as fit as Novak. He never has been and never will. No matter how hard he trains, he won't get to Novak's level. In fact, I doubt he is actually top 20 in terms of endurance fitness. He simply isn't naturally built for that.

However, even in the Miami heat, I am having a hard time believing that 2 sets against Novak, having had a days rest, should be that tiring to mean that fitness is the deciding factor in the 3rd. It seems to me it has to have been at least partially mental.

It is strange because prior to his injury he was so fit and he even succeeded in breaking down Djokovic in a tough 5 setter at the USO. Interestingly, Brad Gilbert in the US broadcast said he was sitting by the Murray camp and at the start of the third set Murray yelled into his box at his fitness trainer and said, "I am done, thanks!" in a sarcastic manner. Murray obviously feels he lost this match physically. But like you it seems a little odd to me that two hours and change of tennis should have done that to him.

[temporary21]

This is an easy one. Two words. Back surgery... Novak has improved in the last few years his overall game whilst Murray has gone sideways having to readjust to back surgery and what not. As such there's a big gap. Losing a set 6-0 is no guarantee of giving up. Training for 3 hours is nothing like competing in a stressful environment for 3. It seems the grind of trying to beat Novak is Tiring him. That said he was fairly aggressive fir much of 2 sets, which is what he needs.

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