Red Cards in Belfast that aren't

First topic message reminder :

What's that now................4 red cards that have been given to Ulster after the match by citing panels but not given by officials at the time?

a) How many minutes on the field should Ulter have been down a man but weren't?
b) What is it that makes officials not give the proper action at the time at the Kingspan stadium?

Something about that place eh?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Now when the Ulster thread decided to ignore you you start a new one

I started this thread yesterday. Since when is starting a thread "trolling"?

Or is it because it shows up some content you and the rest of the Nordie maffia on here don't like?

Whats not liked is some of the rubbish and bs you come off with, plenty of people criticise Ulster and theres a fair few from Munster and Leinster fans not to mention Ulster fans too but you seem to have some paranoid conspiracy theories that you seem to be unable to back up in fact.

Theres plenty of cases of players doing the same or worse than Ulster players and receiving a lesser ban or no ban at all, in the Pro12 and beyond. Ben Te'o on two occasions has used his forearm on players faces this season when being tackled, once with a cast on it and received no ban on either occasion. One was the same weekend Wilson and Marshall were cited.

If refs were expected to see everything, there'd be no TMO, if the TMO was meant to see everything then there'd be no citing commissioner.

carpet baboon wrote:Tell us chunky wahat you want to hear? The refs touch judges and tmo are in the pay of the nordie Mafia? Is that it?

Ironically, most of them get paid by the same people as the players do. So you're not far off there.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yes, our disciplinary record is rubbish this year. Everyone acknowledges it. We need to improve it big time. What is your point?

Read the opening post for goodness sake. Why are the officials at Kingspan getting it wrong on the night, time after time......... and having to have decisions overturned at meetings the week after?

According to that link you posted, we have only had 2 yellows that perhaps should have been red, with only 2 proven reds.

Check out the PC column.

What do you think I based that comment on? 2 reds + 2 yellows =?

The TMO watches the games with a gun at his head:

"Now you'll not be seein' none uh dot dur, wee mon.  Nevermind what the ref dur says, it's nat your consorn.  Jus corry on dur like yiv seen nothing and play dumb, like".

PenfroPete wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

The Saint wrote:To answer the OP, I think this just might show the incompetence of the Pro12 refs, again. We seriously need more decent officials.

I agree there has to be a better standard of officiating, but the three involved, Nigel Owens, Ben Whitehouse and Marius Mitrea certainly aren't the worst on the roster. The Owens game was in Edinburgh so it isn't anything to do with the TMO either.

Rather than different independent referees in different games in different countries getting it consistently "wrong" with Ulster, it is far more plausible that the singular body known as the Citing Commission is the common denominator in the decisions being overruled. Why they should target Ulster for this special treatment is anybody's guess.

Just for clarity,as I understand it the Citing CommissionER makes the citing.

For the Ulster v Blues game it was Citing Commissioner: Eddie Wigglesworth (IRFU), for the Edinburgh v Ulster games it was Citing Commissioner: Paul Minto (SRU). Generally speaking the Commissioner is from the 'home' country

What I could find about the Citing Process - http://www.pro12rugby.com/news/12205.php

"The Citing Commissioners in all domestic competitions are selected on their independence and experience and appointed by the respective Unions. In each of the RaboDirect PRO12 countries, independent Citing Commisssioners are appointed for matches, avoiding where possible the Citing Commissioner's own club, province or region. This is similar to the French Top 14 and England's Aviva Premiership.

'The independent Citing Commissioners in the RaboDirect PRO12 attend the matches and take note of any indicators of possible foul play. They can then seek further information from TV, medical, team officials and players immediately after each game. The independent Citing Commissioner has a maximum of 48 hours from the final whistle, to notify the Tournament Disciplinary Officer of a citing. The independent Citing Commissioner will have reviewed the match DVD, usually with extra TV angles, to confirm his decision."

So it's an individual who decides to cite

Thanks for the research PP.

Are you suggesting that the individual citing commissioners from rival provinces and areas are being especially harsh on Ulster to disadvantage them in League? That's the sort of conspiracy nonsense that I thought was the sole preserve of Chunk and LD - even if it would explain a lot.

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yes, our disciplinary record is rubbish this year. Everyone acknowledges it. We need to improve it big time. What is your point?

Read the opening post for goodness sake. Why are the officials at Kingspan getting it wrong on the night, time after time......... and having to have decisions overturned at meetings the week after?

According to that link you posted, we have only had 2 yellows that perhaps should have been red, with only 2 proven reds.

Check out the PC column.

What do you think I based that comment on? 2 reds + 2 yellows =?

PC = Proven citings. Ulster have 4 times as many as anybody else.

But hey, nothing to see here. No probs.

Can somebody please answer my question, is it the same TMO at all the games at the Kingspan ?

LordDowlais wrote:Can somebody please answer my question, is it the same TMO at all the games at the Kingspan ?

No.

But yer man Marshall Kilgore (proud Ulsterman) is a special, special guy.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Can somebody please answer my question, is it the same TMO at all the games at the Kingspan ?

No.

But yer man Marshall Kilgore (proud Ulsterman) is a special, special guy.

Care to elaborate? Unfortunately we don't all have the free time you seem to have to examine this stuff.

BTW, I'm not having a go, I'm genuinely curious as to what you're on about.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yes, our disciplinary record is rubbish this year. Everyone acknowledges it. We need to improve it big time. What is your point?

Read the opening post for goodness sake. Why are the officials at Kingspan getting it wrong on the night, time after time......... and having to have decisions overturned at meetings the week after?

According to that link you posted, we have only had 2 yellows that perhaps should have been red, with only 2 proven reds.

Check out the PC column.

What do you think I based that comment on? 2 reds + 2 yellows =?

PC = Proven citings. Ulster have 4 times as many as anybody else.

But hey, nothing to see here. No probs.

What has that got to do with my comment? 2 reds + 2 yellows (cited) = 4PC

I think you need a wee cup of

Chunky Norwich wrote: hey, nothing to see here. No probs.

Maybe they just play a different 'style' of rugby?  

There are styles.  The SH style - broken down to perhaps a NZ style v SA style.   Up here we have a Top14 attritional style v an English sidestep-offload style.  And then a perpetual motion whizztastic Welsh style v an Irish SA style bludgeon based game of cheap shots and TMO pay-offs.

LordDowlais wrote:Can somebody please answer my question, is it the same TMO at all the games at the Kingspan ?

Yes. Paid for by Sin Fein and the UDA - finally singing from the same hymn sheet thank God.

LordDowlais wrote:Can somebody please answer my question, is it the same TMO at all the games at the Kingspan ?

If only you had access to the interweb, you could get off your hole and find out yourself. While you're at it, find out what time the 5a bus leaves the side of city hall, would you?

Don Alfonso wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Can somebody please answer my question, is it the same TMO at all the games at the Kingspan ?

If only you had access to the interweb, you could get off your hole and find out yourself. While you're at it, find out what time the 5a bus leaves the side of city hall, would you?

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote: hey, nothing to see here. No probs.

Maybe they just play a different 'style' of rugby?  

There are styles.  The SH style - broken down to perhaps a NZ style v SA style.   Up here we have a Top14 attritional style v an English sidestep-offload style.  And then a perpetual motion whizztastic Welsh style v an Irish SA style bludgeon based game of cheap shots and TMO pay-offs.

Fly how dare you suggest that pay offs are involved!

Theres no need we just own rugby and make everyone dance to our tune hence why the French and English were able to create the ECC, Glasgow Warriors are top of the Pro12, though Stuart Hoggs try was legitimate in the 6Ns and we rigged that in our favour

I have looked on the web and I cannot find anything about it, thats why I asked on here, I should have known I would have had the responses that I have had, ah well there must be a reason why you lot do not want to answer the question. Just continue with your sarcasm, and the wolf pack attacks.

Puppy wolf attacks, Lord. I wouldn't rate them too seriously. We save the real teeth for each other....as a bare knuckle fight on another thread attests to right now

SecretFly wrote:Puppy wolf attacks, Lord.  I wouldn't rate them too seriously.  We save the real teeth for each other....as a bare knuckle fight on another thread attests to right now

Do you know weather they use the same TMO every home game SF ? I just wanted to try and see if their was a common denominator with all these further punishments that are not getting dished out on the field of play.

LordDowlais wrote:I have looked on the web and I cannot find anything about it, thats why I asked on here, I should have known I would have had the responses that I have had, ah well there must be a reason why you lot do not want to answer the question. Just continue with your sarcasm, and the wolf pack attacks.

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/16935.php#ZruCgBwA3jekXYc6.97

CTRL F "TMO"....

LordDowlais wrote:I have looked on the web and I cannot find anything about it, thats why I asked on here, I should have known I would have had the responses that I have had, ah well there must be a reason why you lot do not want to answer the question. Just continue with your sarcasm, and the wolf pack attacks.

It isn't just Ulster fans who don't take your posts seriously. Surely you have realised that?

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Puppy wolf attacks, Lord.  I wouldn't rate them too seriously.  We save the real teeth for each other....as a bare knuckle fight on another thread attests to right now

Do you know weather they use the same TMO every home game SF ? I just wanted to try and see if their was a common denominator with all these further punishments that are not getting dished out on the field of play.

It would be a self foot shot though Lord, considering the ruthless Citing Commission taking no prisoners later on. Didn't someone say they also get paid by the boot-boys of company IRFU.

wolfball wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I have looked on the web and I cannot find anything about it, thats why I asked on here, I should have known I would have had the responses that I have had, ah well there must be a reason why you lot do not want to answer the question. Just continue with your sarcasm, and the wolf pack attacks.

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/16935.php#ZruCgBwA3jekXYc6.97

CTRL F "TMO"....

Cheers tried that, but it is telling me no matches found.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Puppy wolf attacks, Lord.  I wouldn't rate them too seriously.  We save the real teeth for each other....as a bare knuckle fight on another thread attests to right now

Do you know weather they use the same TMO every home game SF ? I just wanted to try and see if their was a common denominator with all these further punishments that are not getting dished out on the field of play.

It would be a self foot shot though Lord, considering the ruthless Citing Commission taking no prisoners later on.  Didn't someone say they also get paid by the boot-boys of company IRFU.  

But if it is the same TMO ALL the time, and he is making the wrong calls, because he is biased, on the payroll of the mafia, out of his depth, does not know the laws or just plain crap, then surley there is grounds for debate, if things are not being called by the TMO at the time of the game, but are deemed worthy of further punishment afterwards, then the TMO is affecting the results of the game. On the other hand, if it is a different TMO each week then that theory is de-bunked straight away.

LordDowlais wrote:I have looked on the web and I cannot find anything about it, thats why I asked on here, I should have known I would have had the responses that I have had, ah well there must be a reason why you lot do not want to answer the question. Just continue with your sarcasm, and the wolf pack attacks.

It took me three seconds and one Google search to find out that Alan Rogan was the TMO for the Cardiff game, and the Treviso game in February, at the minimum.

So the answer is "no, Marshall Kilgoire is not always the TMO at Ulster games."

The reason that no-one wanted to go and look is that we have better things to be doing than finding out extremely easily verifiable facts for other posters.

Why did you think we didn't want to answer the question? I presume it's because you wrongly assumed that Kilgore was always the TMO ,and could thereby imply that his bias was the reason that Ulster weren't getting the red cards they deserve for foul play. Which you can't do now, because it's not the case.

LordDowlais wrote:

wolfball wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I have looked on the web and I cannot find anything about it, thats why I asked on here, I should have known I would have had the responses that I have had, ah well there must be a reason why you lot do not want to answer the question. Just continue with your sarcasm, and the wolf pack attacks.

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/16935.php#ZruCgBwA3jekXYc6.97

CTRL F "TMO"....

Cheers tried that, but it is telling me no matches found.

No they don't use the same TMO in every game, Lord. Info is out there when you're persistent.

Ok, that is one theory de-bunked then, cheers that is all I asked for, sheesh, that was like trying to get blood out of a stone, well, I do not know why these matters are always reffered to the citing commisioner for further punishment, Ulster must just be lucky at the time of the match with their TMO decisions I guess.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

wolfball wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I have looked on the web and I cannot find anything about it, thats why I asked on here, I should have known I would have had the responses that I have had, ah well there must be a reason why you lot do not want to answer the question. Just continue with your sarcasm, and the wolf pack attacks.

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/16935.php#ZruCgBwA3jekXYc6.97

CTRL F "TMO"....

Cheers tried that, but it is telling me no matches found.

No they don't use the same TMO in every game, Lord.  Info is out there when you're persistent.

You don't have to be persistent. You have to know how to type into a Google search box. Or ask a friendly neighbour to do so. When they've finished tying your shoelaces and making your sandwiches.

Don Alfonso wrote:You don't have to be persistent. You have to know how to type into a Google search box. Or ask a friendly neighbour to do so. When they've finished tying your shoelaces and making your sandwiches.

I've got a wife to do all that, there is no way my neighbours are taking my wifes chores off her she does feck all except spend my money as it is. YES I AM THE BOSS IN MY HOUSE.

only joking love.

Don Alfonso wrote:

You don't have to be persistent. You have to know how to type into a Google search box. Or ask a friendly neighbour to do so. When they've finished tying your shoelaces and making your sandwiches.

Ah now...some smart ass sites Do make you sweat for any info you get, Don.  The f**king World Rugby one and the Six Nations one come to mind sometimes!

But even the Pro12 one.  You click the 'Fixtures and Results'.  You click the 'Report'.  But the info ain't on the Report.  You must go up and click the 'Preview'.  Sometimes there is an over-clickyness about sites that can drain the willingness to continue.

LordDowlais wrote:

wolfball wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I have looked on the web and I cannot find anything about it, thats why I asked on here, I should have known I would have had the responses that I have had, ah well there must be a reason why you lot do not want to answer the question. Just continue with your sarcasm, and the wolf pack attacks.

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/16935.php#ZruCgBwA3jekXYc6.97

CTRL F "TMO"....

Cheers tried that, but it is telling me no matches found.

Did a quick search myself as it maybe seamed interesting
few games at random
V Edinburgh TMO: Marshall Kilgore (IRFU)
V Cardiff Blues TMO: Alan Rogan (IRFU)
V Benetton Treviso TMO: Alan Rogan (IRFU)
V Connacht TMO: Brian McNeice (IRFU)

Marshall Kilgore (IRFU) came up in another one I checked not sure V who, but it seams to vary.

Them all being IRFU is suspicious though. Looks like a trend to me.......

That is some bloody name btw. Marshall Kilgore!

Andy Howeller having a meltdown over the Williams incident, on WalesOnline.

#clickbate

OK, I'll bite. So what exactly are the possible answers? The officials are bias? Even if so, that's for the officials to sort out. It doesn't say nowt about Ulster as a club unless you are suggesting the officials are bought?

If your problem, is the officials, make a general thread. You've linked it to Ulster specifically so why not spill and say what involvement if any you think the club has?

Munchkin wrote:Andy Howeller having a meltdown over the Williams incident, on WalesOnline.

#clickbate

Shouldn't he be pretty angry though? Pretty bad what has happened to Patchell. I hope you're wumming, as I don't think that article is very clickbaity

Risca Rev wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Andy Howeller having a meltdown over the Williams incident, on WalesOnline.

#clickbate

Shouldn't he be pretty angry though? Pretty bad what has happened to Patchell. I hope you're wumming, as I don't think that article is very clickbaity

What happened Patchell is frightening.... considering how little he remembers if reported correctly. Hope he makes a full - full - recovery.

I guess anger is an appropriate tone.  

But people are still entitled to defend the officials who were present at the game, and defend themselves against the accusations that there was an attempt to cover up the Williams act because of the location that the game took place in.

Its when two topics are joined and connections are made that people tend to react Rev.

Risca Rev wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Andy Howeller having a meltdown over the Williams incident, on WalesOnline.

#clickbate

Shouldn't he be pretty angry though? Pretty bad what has happened to Patchell. I hope you're wumming, as I don't think that article is very clickbaity

No, I'm not wumming, and if it isn't clickbait, it is certainly low grade journalism.

Nobody likes to see a player injured, but it doesn't have to mean we lose all sense of perspective. Howell is screaming "Unfair", but either he has let his emotions get the better of him, or he is indulging in clickbate. I respect neither in a professional journalist. Not that I don't respect the emotion. I do. It's just that it should be tempered with reason.

I think the citing commissions judgement was fair, as I've previously stated, even if relative to other judgement's it may seem harsh to some. The likes of Howell are likely basing their personal judgement on outcome, rather than the act itself.

Finally, whatever the intention of Williams, I simply do not believe he intended the consequence.

Risca Rev wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Andy Howeller having a meltdown over the Williams incident, on WalesOnline.

#clickbate

Shouldn't he be pretty angry though? Pretty bad what has happened to Patchell. I hope you're wumming, as I don't think that article is very clickbaity

I've just read it. It is clickbaity, and contains some very questionable statements.

He's going on to suggest that Ulster should publicly discipline Williams, Ulster should possibly have points deducted- it's almost impossible to go over the top with an incident like this but he manages it. I would like Ulster to discipline Williams too, or better yet find a way to offload him in the summer, but I would be disgusted if they made a scapegoat of him in public. That is exactly the sort of thing that should be done behind closed doors. Apparently Ulster not making an exception to their policy of not commenting publicly on incidents like this is 'appalling'.

Likewise, given the inconsistency citing commissioners show which he points out in his own article, the absolute last thing I'd want to happen is to give them the ability to influence the standings with points deductions! All well and good when we're on our Nick Williams should be hung justice kick, but can you imagine the fallout the first time a panel decides to deduct points for one offence and not to for a very similar one? An all-Irish panel deducts points from a Welsh region? Prepare for the internet to explode.

Of these 'red cards' I think the Williams incident was the only one that was actually a red, I think the referees got the other ones right at the time (there was no decision on Luke Marshall but you would have needed telescopic, slow-motion vision to see that in real time). On first viewing I didn't think it was a red either, and it was always a borderline yellow/red. I don't think this adds up to a hill of beans. Ulster have been particularly unlucky with the decisions of citing panels this year with incidents that would be dismissed in previous years being over-punished.

Some of the statements in there are nonsense I grant you, but I would call it clickbait if there was some sort of misleading headline and to be fair I don't see one

Rhys Patchell concussion row: Lenient Nick Williams ban shows rugby's disciplinary process is 'a shambles'

He then describes Patchell's problem and clearly winds himself up and starts to write guff. I don't think it's clickbait, I think it's poor journalism towards the end of the article.

Hold on, if Marshall did deliberately kick a head and if Wilson did deliberately clip a face with his hand, should they not be equally disciplined by Ulster if that is the argument for Williams. I mean if its a case of lambasting those who deliberately inflict injury, it has to be based on the action, not the outcome. What if Marshalls boot did more damage, or Wilson's finger made worse contact with an eyeball. Its irrelevant what damage was dine. You either want players to behave well or you don't.

All deliberate contact should be treated equally harshly in order to wipe it out.

So he says about Williams:
"Yes, the very same player who last month put Scarlets’ Wales back-row forward Aaron Shingler on the sidelines for an expected eight weeks with a bad shoulder injury after illegally clearing him out at a breakdown."

That clearout was borderline but the ref at the time saw nothing more than a penalty after viewing it again. Here Mr Howeller is real disgusting, dirty and illegal clearing out at rucktime:
http://www.andymcgeady.com/no-arms-clearout-needs-shown-door/

So lets not aim the witch hunt at Ulster. Ulster fans are as disgusted at Nick Williams as any and moreover we don't want to see him in an Ulster kit again.

The witch hunt that's being orchestrated by LD and CN can carry on mind you as both parties are ignored by most on here anyway

I actually felt the incident on Shingler was worse and I do agree that those king of brutal clearouts need looked at.

But please consider my previous comment.

Risca Rev wrote:Some of the statements in there are nonsense I grant you, but I would call it clickbait if there was some sort of misleading headline and to be fair I don't see one

Rhys Patchell concussion row: Lenient Nick Williams ban shows rugby's disciplinary process is 'a shambles'

He then describes Patchell's problem and clearly winds himself up and starts to write guff. I don't think it's clickbait, I think it's poor journalism towards the end of the article.

Thats actually fair enough

Pete330v2 wrote:So he says about Williams:
"Yes, the very same player who last month put Scarlets’ Wales back-row forward Aaron Shingler on the sidelines for an expected eight weeks with a bad shoulder injury after illegally clearing him out at a breakdown."

That clearout was borderline but the ref at the time saw nothing more than a penalty after viewing it again. Here Mr Howeller is real disgusting, dirty and illegal clearing out at rucktime:
http://www.andymcgeady.com/no-arms-clearout-needs-shown-door/

So lets not aim the witch hunt at Ulster. Ulster fans are as disgusted at Nick Williams as any and moreover we don't want to see him in an Ulster kit again.

The witch hunt that's being orchestrated by LD and CN can carry on mind you as both parties are ignored by most on here anyway

The Shinglar incident is another case of the result deciding the level of outrage, that incident happened right before half time then at the start of the second half an Ulster player did exactly the same thing and came from further away to hit the ruck and no action taken and noone is pointing fingers about it.

In the Glasgow/Ospreys game a few weeks ago saw a collapsed scrum and Nakarawa used a driving headbutt into the back of the neck of Marc Thomas while his head was still planted in the ground, the ref went to the TMO and both just saw it as a penalty yet the commission saw it as a red yet at the low end

To be honest I'm not convinced the officials are kept up to speed enough. When the citing panel passes judgement they should
a) survey the refs on what they would have given mid game
B) send out some sort of instructional info such as 'if you weren't aware this kind of offence is a red card, it is!'

Tackle in the air for instance. Still a crazy amount of difference in opinions across the refereeing world.

Clarification is a must.

Is refereeing only a part time job though? Maybe it'd should be full time with constant learning, workshops, debate and exams...

Also, for what its worth - a referee who makes a glaring failure to enforce the laws he's supposed to know should receive a fine or warning himself. High standards go both ways.

Munchkin wrote:Finally, whatever the intention of Williams, I simply do not believe he intended the consequence.

I agree with that, in the fact he did not want to put Rhys Patchell in hospital, but, and this is where people like Pete330v2 will start insulting me again, I think he was in full control of what he was doing, and I think his intention was to rough up a game changing player. The thing is, if you watch it, you will see, that Nick Williams has a lot of time to think about what he is going to do as he runs up to the maul. You can see him pick up speed, then drop is right hand side if his body to line him up, he then leads with the top half of his arm and hits Rhys Patchell on the side of the head with the top of his massive bicep/lower shoulder, he then continues to follow through and lift his whole arm up through the contact whilst still pushing forwards at speed.

I am sorry, but that is not how you engage with a maul, that is exactly what to do if you want to hurt somebody, I do not think Nick Williams wanted to hurt him that much though, but never the less, he knew what he was doing.

I think that it goes in circles. Leinster were accused of getting favourable decisions at home a few years back, Munster before them and even Blues and Scarlets have been accused of getting very favourable home ground decisions.

This is not a new issue and not one that is/or has happened only at Ulster. Its just a case of poor officiating levels at times in the Pro-12.

For me there are two issues. The first is should any injury that is caused due to reckless play have a bearing on the punishment?
The second is there is far to much "clearing out" at rucks which is just plain dangerous.
As an example and only because someone put it up earlier on this thread, Jenkins clear out on Hogg. That to me was a red card. Now watch the matches this weekend and I'm sure we will see similar in every game. But only ones causing injury will be carded or cited. That in my opinion is wrong.
The action needs to be sanctioned not the outcome.
Them be my thoughts.
And I hope Rhys is back on the pitch a lot sooner than Williams

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:Its just a case of poor officiating levels at times in the Pro-12

I think that is something we can all agree on.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Finally, whatever the intention of Williams, I simply do not believe he intended the consequence.

I agree with that, in the fact he did not want to put Rhys Patchell in hospital, but, and this is where people like Pete330v2 will start insulting me again, I think he was in full control of what he was doing, and I think his intention was to rough up a game changing player. The thing is, if you watch it, you will see, that Nick Williams has a lot of time to think about what he is going to do as he runs up to the maul. You can see him pick up speed, then drop is right hand side if his body to line him up, he then leads with the top half of his arm and hits Rhys Patchell on the side of the head with the top of his massive bicep/lower shoulder, he then continues to follow through and lift his whole arm up through the contact whilst still pushing forwards at speed.

I am sorry, but that is not how you engage with a maul, that is exactly what to do if you want to hurt somebody, I do not think Nick Williams wanted to hurt him that much though, but never the less, he knew what he was doing.

I don't disagree with your interpretation but neither you nor I have any idea what his 'intent' was. It looked to me as though he was trying to grab Patchell's wrist to dislodge his bind - that explains his arm position and subsequent arm movement. Williams was in a bad position and caught RP so it was indeed reckless and clumsy.

Considering experienced backrowers like Charvis at the time and Martyn Williams a couple of days later also took the view that it was no more than a yellow, it is hard to say that Mitrea, the TMO or the officials got the decision as dramatically wrong as is being played out by journos fishing for clicks.