The Official *England's Passage to Paris 2016* Thread

[FootballLight]

First topic message reminder :

Sorry 24, I'm thinking of the World Cup again.

[Duty281]

They're not first-choice starters usually, though.

And that is the worst decision I've ever seen.

[Scottrf]

What?!

[Duty281]

No Clive, Rooney is not an England great.

Not unless he fires England to glory next year - I won't hold my breath!

[Hammersmith harrier]

Cahill is obviously ahead of Jagielka, wouldnt be surprised if Smalling is too. Milner I have no problem with, but not against minnows. I'd have played him "right back" and played a defence of Carrick/Stones with Shaw the nominal left back.

Copycat

Jagielka really does worry me as a starting centre, just is not good enough for international football.

[Hammersmith harrier]

No Clive, Rooney is not an England great.

Not unless he fires England to glory next year - I won't hold my breath!

Not that I disagree Duty but does that mean that only the 66 squad can be considered great?

When all is said and done, Nico was spot on Rooney cannot carry Charltons jockstrap, he's not fit to wipe his arse either.

[Hoggy_Bear]

No Clive, Rooney is not an England great.

Not unless he fires England to glory next year - I won't hold my breath!

So only those England players who played in '66 can be counted as 'greats'?

[Duty281]

Oh no, I didn't mean that. It's just Rooney has been poor for the last four tournaments, and only by firing England to glory would he redeem himself.

England have some other 'great' players who didn't play during 66.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Just levelled a record, not fit to carry Charlton's jockstrap. 

People bemoan the modern footballer but I'd disconnect from a fanbase like the one we have currently.

[Duty281]

Just levelled a record, not fit to carry Charlton's jockstrap. 

People bemoan the modern footballer but I'd disconnect from a fanbase like the one we have currently.

Do you think Rooney's an England great, out of interest?

[GSC]

I don't think Rooney is an England great purely because his tournament performances since 2004 have been crap. A great should show up in the most important games and he generally goes missing

[Dolphin Ziggler]

It's difficult because in reality I can't think of anyone who has had a better tournament than Rooney's 2004 for quite a long time. Certainly since Rooney has been established England have been pretty crud as a whole. Yet he's levelled Charlton's record in the exact same amount of games in a worse side. It's no easy achievement, regardless of people writing it off. So in a loose sense yes, in a more refined list then he's probably outside of it.

[Hero]

Whilst Rooney has scored more goals in competitive matches I do think that he wouldn't have got the number of games up front for England in other eras, for me it's due to the lack of quality competition for places up front has resulted in his goal tally.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Thinking about performances of our Golden Generation in tournaments, Ashley Cole was an achiever, Rio did well and I remember Terry having one or two good ones, but none of the others can be happy. Gerrard had a desperate tournament dragging England up but not to high standards. Lampard may not have even had one good game for England at a tournament, let alone a good tournament

[Hammersmith harrier]

It's difficult because in reality I can't think of anyone who has had a better tournament than Rooney's 2004 for quite a long time. Certainly since Rooney has been established England have been pretty crud as a whole. Yet he's levelled Charlton's record in the exact same amount of games in a worse side. It's no easy achievement, regardless of people writing it off. So in a loose sense yes, in a more refined list then he's probably outside of it.

Charlton being a midfielder makes that gap pretty damn huge and those two goals against Portugal are worth more than Rooney's collective 49.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Joint top Goalscorer of all time for England, third all time goalscorer for Manchester United, likely to top that record too. And the opinion of a Man United fan here is to basically insult him.

[Duty281]

It's difficult because in reality I can't think of anyone who has had a better tournament than Rooney's 2004 for quite a long time. Certainly since Rooney has been established England have been pretty crud as a whole. Yet he's levelled Charlton's record in the exact same amount of games in a worse side. It's no easy achievement, regardless of people writing it off. So in a loose sense yes, in a more refined list then he's probably outside of it.

Well after a brief scan of Rooney's England goals tally, 23 of his goals have either been in friendlies or against minnow nations!

It might not be an easy achievement, but it certainly wasn't a difficult one.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Don't get me wrong I rated him very highly for United under Fergie but aside from the Euro's in 2004 he hasn't performed at a major tournament for England. I don't think saying he's not anywhere near Charlton's level is insulting because nobody is and alongside Moore is one of two truly great players that we've produced.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I think Rooney may well have had a better tournament record had we ever hosted one in his career. Labelling Charlton a "midfielder" like he was playing a very disciplined role is a little misguiding. Tactically speaking, they were set up to benefit from the goalscoring attributes of Charlton.

[Hammersmith harrier]

It's not misleading in the slightest, he was a Midfielder who specialised in driving forward ala Lampard or Gerrard, at no point did I suggest he was a disciplined midfielder, that's what Nobby did for club and country.

[Duty281]

Also worth pointing out that Lineker was far greater than Rooney ever was at international level, but I'm sure we all agree on that?!

[Hoggy_Bear]

It's difficult because in reality I can't think of anyone who has had a better tournament than Rooney's 2004 for quite a long time. Certainly since Rooney has been established England have been pretty crud as a whole. Yet he's levelled Charlton's record in the exact same amount of games in a worse side. It's no easy achievement, regardless of people writing it off. So in a loose sense yes, in a more refined list then he's probably outside of it.

Well after a brief scan of Rooney's England goals tally, 23 of his goals have either been in friendlies or against minnow nations!

It might not be an easy achievement, but it certainly wasn't a difficult one.

22 of Charlton's goals were in friendlies. Plenty must have been against 'minnow' nations as well.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

There's "not as good" and "not fit to carry his jockstrap." Little bit demeaning! Only Cole really has performed well to their standards at tournaments.

[Hero]

I'd certainly choose Lineker over Rooney, for me he was the greatest English striker.

[Duty281]

It's difficult because in reality I can't think of anyone who has had a better tournament than Rooney's 2004 for quite a long time. Certainly since Rooney has been established England have been pretty crud as a whole. Yet he's levelled Charlton's record in the exact same amount of games in a worse side. It's no easy achievement, regardless of people writing it off. So in a loose sense yes, in a more refined list then he's probably outside of it.

Well after a brief scan of Rooney's England goals tally, 23 of his goals have either been in friendlies or against minnow nations!

It might not be an easy achievement, but it certainly wasn't a difficult one.

22 of Charlton's goals were in friendlies. Plenty must have been against 'minnow' nations as well.

I'm pointing out the perceived difficulty of the task of scoring 49 goals at international level in this era, not doing a direct comparison of Rooney and Charlton.

[Hammersmith harrier]

It's a boxing turn of phrase Dolph.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

It's not misleading in the slightest, he was a Midfielder who specialised in driving forward ala Lampard or Gerrard, at no point did I suggest he was a disciplined midfielder, that's what Nobby did for club and country.

But neither did you define the type of player he was. Merely a midfielder, which suggests he wasn't used as an attacking threat primarily for England. Don't get me wrong, Charlton was incredible and his achievement fantastic, but he'd be the first to argue how good Rooney's achievement it is and how it matches up with his own.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

It's a boxing turn of phrase Dolph.

I know the turn of phrase, but it isn't a kind one.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I'd certainly choose Lineker over Rooney, for me he was the greatest English striker.

Whereas many would say Greaves stands well above him.

[NickisBHAFC]

I hate these games so boring!

Walcott has scored now, now he gets another 2 undeserved caps.

[Hero]

My dad was a Spurs fan who grew up with Greaves but he rated Lineker higher as well, Greaves was probably the greatest poacher though.

[Hoggy_Bear]

I'd certainly choose Lineker over Rooney, for me he was the greatest English striker.

Whereas many would say Greaves stands well above him.

I wouldn't. Greaves, despite his great scoring record, was another player who struggled to score against the 'big' teams or in the 'big' tournaments. That's not something you could accuse Linekar of.

[Duty281]

Has Theo scored? Marvellous.

England and Slovakia - the only 100% teams!

[Dolphin Ziggler]

My dad was a Spurs fan who grew up with Greaves but he rated Lineker higher as well, Greaves was probably the greatest poacher though.

I'd never trust the judgement of anyone who chose to be a Spurs fan!

[Hero]

TBF Spurs were pretty good back then, not often you can call someone a glory hunter for supporting Spurs but he must have been as he was a Northerner too.

[Ent]

Easier to plunder the goals now a days with the abundance of games and length of players careers.

Lot of record scorers floating about, Ronaldo, rvp, Robbie Keane (67 goals for ireland is some effort).

[Hammersmith harrier]

To put into some context but Rooney's scoring record is ever so slightly better than Messi and Ronaldo's at international level, the latter does admittedly face the same opposition.

[Ent]

Neither are pure centre forwards though - both have done more in major tournaments too.

[Stella]

To put into some context but Rooney's scoring record is ever so slightly better than Messi and Ronaldo's at international level, the latter does admittedly face the same opposition.

Only one good tournament has soured his career. Time to put that right of course.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Please let that be the last time we see James Milner start CM for England

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I'm not always a big Shelvey fan but he was the only player who made an impression on me today. Needs to be tested but considering the opposition it was telling that he was the only one making incisive passes.

[Duty281]

Slovakia have lost to Spain, so England are the only 100% side in Europe.

Might as well give Hodgson the trophy now.

Switzerland were 0-2 down after 79 minutes, but came back to win 3-2. I'm thinking England will narrowly triumph on Tuesday, but no one really cares anymore!

England are playing a friendly against France in November - if both teams field strong sides and play with a decent intensity, it could be the only barometer we have of where England currently are.

[Hero]

Looking at the crop of players France are bringing through I fancy them over the next few years.

[GSC]

This was a complete waste of time. Is there really any point to San Marino?

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Rooney's 49;

San Marino 5: Croatia 4: Kazakhstan 3: Switzerland 3; Andorra 2; Belarus 2; Brazil 2; Bulgaria 2; Denmark 2; Estonia 2; Iceland 2; Montenegro 2; Poland 2; Scotland 2; Slovakia 2; Slovenia 2; Argentina 1; Ecuador 1; Holland 1; Lichtenstein 1; Lithuania 1; Macedonia 1; Norway 1; Russia 1; Ukraine 1; Uruguay 1

Charlton's 49;

Northern Ireland 6; Luxembourg 5; Portugal 5; Scotland 5; Wales 5; Mexico 4; USA 4; Switzerland 3; Soviet Union 2; Sweden 2; Argentina 1; Austria 1; Colombia 1; Czechoslovakia 1; East Germany 1; Italy 1; Spain 1; Yugoslavia 1

[Ent]

Tbh I'm surprised Rooney didn't break this record more quickly - england are top seeds and face lengthy qualifying campaigns with only 1 good team in their group and he's been first choice for 13 years.

[Duty281]

Dodgy red card for Holland, then a very negative sub played into icelands hands. Robben off injured after about 20 minutes. While game was a disaster for the Dutch really.

2nd manager since World Cup and all players except vlaar available? Mad to think they probably won't qualify.

The Dutch are 1-0 down to the Turkish after eight minutes. Will be all over for them, in all probability, if they lose that one.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

The Dutch are now 2-0 down...

[Dolphin Ziggler]

"Arda Turan fires in at the near post to double Turkey's lead. It was really suspect goalkeeping from Jesper Cillessen, but a fair portion of the blame has to go to Daley Blind for his defending."

Luckily for faux Mancs, LVG didn't get round to buying Cilessen.

[Lowlandbrit]

After Friday's game the full list of countries that have been behind for more minutes than the Netherlands in this qualifying was going around. This is it: Andorra, Cyprus, Gibraltar, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Malta and San Marino.

[Ent]

3-0 bad times for the Dutch.

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