The Official *England's Passage to Paris 2016* Thread

[FootballLight]

First topic message reminder :

Sorry 24, I'm thinking of the World Cup again.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

One tournament though. That isnt a precedent at this stage.

And we don't really have the history to suggest quarter finals, which we usually would expect to get to, is anything more than we should get anyway.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Rooney has been poor for the past two seasons Dolph, it is no longer a blip but an indication that he's no longer the player he was, he is a very old 29.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Rooney has been poor for the past two seasons Dolph, it is no longer a blip but an indication that he's no longer the player he was, he is a very old 29.

He got 17 goals season before last, and 12 last season playing almost anywhere but up front. I'm happy to admit he is playing rubbish at the moment for United, but hes far from ready to be written off.

I've said often enough, I do feel he is under-appreciated at OT. I'd imagine he will be looking to go back to Everton in a year or two, and I would agree that he looks older than his years. But hes a gifted footballer and it would seem premature to have him lining up for the scrapheap just yet.

[Guest]

Playing International qualifiers, Rooney can go for until he's 40. Translate that to major tournaments & the results speak for themselves. It's the latter, whereby we need him to produce, not really the former, seeing as basically anybody can score vs Estonia, San Marino types. 

As it's the Rooney name, he'll be given one last tournament, but I'm not expecting anything other than what we've seen before.

[Hammersmith harrier]

He's not under appreciated at all, he was once a very important player for us but he hasn't been since about 2012 now and the constant contract demands have left a bitter taste in the mouth. Combine that with a complete loss of form and it's understandable that the fans have had enough, he is not worth those hefty wages and in reality never was.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

He's not under appreciated at all, he was once a very important player for us but he hasn't been since about 2012 now and the constant contract demands have left a bitter taste in the mouth. Combine that with a complete loss of form and it's understandable that the fans have had enough, he is not worth those hefty wages and in reality never was.

I think a lot from outside your club would disagree. Especially as youve gone from "not under appreciated" to never worth hefty wages.

I find the wages ones interesting as I think it showed that Fergie couldnt relinquish his aggressive nature, but couldnt get rid of him like he had with players in the past because Man United were not good enough to do that any more. Let alone that all players do this stuff with wages.

Personally not sure any player at another club in the modern era who is likely to break the club's goalscoring record having just beat the English scoring record would be appreciated the way United fans appreciate Rooney.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Think it's a little early to write him off, but there can be no doubt he's on the decline.

[Ent]

He struggles to control the ball.

That's the last thing to go - there's something's seriously wrong with him currently.

[Alistair]

He's not under appreciated at all, he was once a very important player for us but he hasn't been since about 2012 now and the constant contract demands have left a bitter taste in the mouth. Combine that with a complete loss of form and it's understandable that the fans have had enough, he is not worth those hefty wages and in reality never was.

I think a lot from outside your club would disagree. Especially as youve gone from "not under appreciated" to never worth hefty wages.

I find the wages ones interesting as I think it showed that Fergie couldnt relinquish his aggressive nature, but couldnt get rid of him like he had with players in the past because Man United were not good enough to do that any more. Let alone that all players do this stuff with wages.

Personally not sure any player at another club in the modern era who is likely to break the club's goalscoring record having just beat the English scoring record would be appreciated the way United fans appreciate Rooney.

I think he saw something that a lot of people are still struggling to see. Granted, Rooney may have interested a few clubs across Europe, but i can't see the Madrid's, Barcelona's, Munich's of this world touching him. They were never going to get millions like they did with Ronaldo and why they felt he was worth £300k is ridiculous.

[Guest]

England: 1 Butland 2 Walker 3 Gibbs 4 Shelvey 5 Jones 6 Jagielka (c) 7 Chamberlain 8 Barkley 9 Vardy 10 Kane 11 Lallana

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

England B internationals make a return

[Steffan]

I got a feeling us and you lot could get drawn in the same group in Euro 2016. Hope not mind

[Dolphin Ziggler]

More excited to watch them now though

[Hammersmith harrier]

He's not under appreciated at all, he was once a very important player for us but he hasn't been since about 2012 now and the constant contract demands have left a bitter taste in the mouth. Combine that with a complete loss of form and it's understandable that the fans have had enough, he is not worth those hefty wages and in reality never was.

I think a lot from outside your club would disagree. Especially as youve gone from "not under appreciated" to never worth hefty wages.

I find the wages ones interesting as I think it showed that Fergie couldnt relinquish his aggressive nature, but couldnt get rid of him like he had with players in the past because Man United were not good enough to do that any more. Let alone that all players do this stuff with wages.

Personally not sure any player at another club in the modern era who is likely to break the club's goalscoring record having just beat the English scoring record would be appreciated the way United fans appreciate Rooney.

Those outside the club aren't the ones who have been p1ssed off by his behaviour and complete loss of form so I don't care a jot what they think and their opinion is largely irrelevant.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

He's not under appreciated at all, he was once a very important player for us but he hasn't been since about 2012 now and the constant contract demands have left a bitter taste in the mouth. Combine that with a complete loss of form and it's understandable that the fans have had enough, he is not worth those hefty wages and in reality never was.

I think a lot from outside your club would disagree. Especially as youve gone from "not under appreciated" to never worth hefty wages.

I find the wages ones interesting as I think it showed that Fergie couldnt relinquish his aggressive nature, but couldnt get rid of him like he had with players in the past because Man United were not good enough to do that any more. Let alone that all players do this stuff with wages.

Personally not sure any player at another club in the modern era who is likely to break the club's goalscoring record having just beat the English scoring record would be appreciated the way United fans appreciate Rooney.

Those outside the club aren't the ones who have been p1ssed off by his behaviour and complete loss of form so I don't care a jot what they think and their opinion is largely irrelevant.

Debate, a wonderful tool.

We are also the ones who have an objective opinion.

[Duty281]

I''ll go for a shock Lithuanian win. 2-1!

[Guest]

Barkley 1-0

[Steffan]

I''ll go for a shock Lithuanian win. 2-1!

You're 1/3 of the way there

[NickisBHAFC]

Kane 2-0. Lovely play by Lallana.

England on course for a 100% record going into Euro 2016!

[Steffan]

England on course for a 100% record going into Euro 2016!

Yep. Its been a good campaign for you guys

[Hammersmith harrier]

He's not under appreciated at all, he was once a very important player for us but he hasn't been since about 2012 now and the constant contract demands have left a bitter taste in the mouth. Combine that with a complete loss of form and it's understandable that the fans have had enough, he is not worth those hefty wages and in reality never was.

I think a lot from outside your club would disagree. Especially as youve gone from "not under appreciated" to never worth hefty wages.

I find the wages ones interesting as I think it showed that Fergie couldnt relinquish his aggressive nature, but couldnt get rid of him like he had with players in the past because Man United were not good enough to do that any more. Let alone that all players do this stuff with wages.

Personally not sure any player at another club in the modern era who is likely to break the club's goalscoring record having just beat the English scoring record would be appreciated the way United fans appreciate Rooney.

Those outside the club aren't the ones who have been p1ssed off by his behaviour and complete loss of form so I don't care a jot what they think and their opinion is largely irrelevant.

Debate, a wonderful tool.

We are also the ones who have an objective opinion.

You don't have an objective opinion because it's not your team who's paying him £300k a week for doing sod all every game, I genuinely can't remember the last time he had a good game for us.

[Mad for Chelsea]

How on earth does Kyle Walker still make England squads?

expectedly comfortable for England, Kane and Lallana both having useful games.

[Stella]

Walker happens to play for a big London club. This always helps. Plus the alternatives are bang average.

[Guest]

Pretty average performance, poor second half. Vardy & Oxlade were ban average tonight. Barkley has been the standout player, Lallana has been decent, but with him you know it's because of the opposition & allowing him to impress with those flicks & tricks, that the commentators drool over.

Doubt many of this lot will be starting next summer, bar Barkley/Kane

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Thought Oxlade was alright and took his goal well, dont think hes a winger though. Lallana is good in tight little spaces and the assist* on the Kane-OG was good. Barkley, Shelvey and Lallana were the ones I expected to get used to the pitch quickest and it showed. Technically best players and did the job.

[Steffan]

Oh well a 100% record for you English boys. Well done

We got our final game tomorrow which I shall be drunkenly attending

See you in France......

[Guest]

so, phil mcnulty has done his england side for the euro's on BBC, what's people's thoughts

(4-4-3)

------------------------ROONEY---------------------
--STERLING---------------------------------WALCOTT
-----------BARKLEY---------------WILSHERE---------
-----------------------CARRICK-----------------------
BAINES-----STONES--------SMALLING------CLYNE
------------------------HART-------------------------

Have no issue with the back 5. Midfield three is obviously fitness dependent, although if we play counter attacking football & having to do significant chasing, i'm not convinced carrick has the legs or wilshere has the fitness, i think an engine of henderson would be more preferable. is rooney a no. 9 or even guaranteed a slot, not for me. sterling is the £49m man, so is selected & then is walcott really a right sided wide man, not sure.

[Duty281]

I'll be happy if Rooney isn't picked. Go on Roy, you can pick Carrick/Jones/Milner/Walker/Heskey, but please, please, please, please...not Wayne.

[Stella]

I expect Rooney will be our captain next summer, and injury free, play. I still think he's good enough, and to be honest doesn't have much to prove in this team.

[Duty281]

Oh yes, I fully expect he will be captain and will play as well. No matter how atrocious the form he is in, no matter whether he is half-injured or not, no matter how well his competitors are doing, Wayne will play.

To the great detriment of this England side.

[Stella]

I hope Sturridge stays fit. England have quite a few players battling for places up top. Welbeck as well, though I don't rate him as high as Theo, or even Sterling.

[compelling and rich]

rooney cant lead the line, he's too slow, he'll slow down the counter attacks and will end up just dropping back trying to get into the game like he always does. leaving nobody upfront. it should be sturridge to lead the line with pace throughout the front 3 then. rooney will get in deeper over barkley or wilshere if he's injured (very likely), not that id pick him though.

never thought id see the day that England win all there groups games going into a major tournament, a tournament which hardly has any decent sides there and still be massively underwhelmed by them

[Dolphin Ziggler]

See, it becomes hard to take any debate over Rooney seriously when it gets to "pick Milner, Walker, Heskey" etc.

Henderson will play, definitely over one of Barkley and Wilshere, and whilst I don't rate him as a ball player, his work rate and burst will be important. Fast, technical players will do Carrick if hes solo, and Wilshere and Barkley don't have the nous to support him. Henderson would.

Sturridge is a question mark on fitness, and Kane on form. Not seen enough in Kane yet to say hes cracking international football, or even cracking have two good seasons on the trot.

Don't think Baines is better than Cresswell or Bertrand, but he has experience and delivers set pieces, both of which could be important attributes in that side.

Picking a squad now, with assumptions on fitness and returning form, I think i'd go:

Hart, Butland, McCarthy

Clyne, Jones, Smalling, Stones, Cahill, Bertrand, Shaw (Cresswell if Shaw injured)

Carrick, Wilshere, Ox, Henderson, Delph, Barkley, Sterling, Lallana

Walcott, Kane, Rooney, Sturridge, Berahino or Carroll

I think Eric Dier should be seriously looked at over this season as he is an option to play holding midfield who can also play centre back (and right back). I'd expect Milner and (a fit) Welbeck will play a huge part in Hodgson's thinking, as will Jagielka, but right now I see no place for them if other options are fit. I'd be tempted to say Shelvey should be above Milner in a central midfield role anyway. Ings and Vardy will have to bang in goals for their clubs all season to make it. Carroll remains a personal choice because I think a squad is improved by having a different option for style added to their attack play, but he has to stay fit and score some goals.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

rooney cant lead the line, he's too slow, he'll slow down the counter attacks and will end up just dropping back trying to get into the game like he always does.  leaving nobody upfront. it should be sturridge to lead the line with pace throughout the front 3 then. rooney will get in deeper over barkley or wilshere if he's injured (very likely), not that id pick him though.

never thought id see the day that England win all there groups games going into a major tournament, a tournament which hardly has any decent sides there and still be massively underwhelmed by them

I think the point of that 4-3-3 is that Rooney is the conduit for Walcott and Sterling's pace.

The problem is, the few decent sides that there are are good. But thats true of most of these tournaments. England are better than the majority, but that doesnt win you anything. If we learn to counter a bit we could beat Spain, but I don't see us beating Germany at any point unless we go absolutely backs to the wall and nick a 1-0.

[compelling and rich]

if ireland can do it there should be no reason why we shouldn't be able to, but as ive mentioned earlier ireland know what they are and play to those strengths. England will not go in with that mentality they will try and play it out against Germany and lose as a result

its not just rooney lack of pace that will slow down the breaks, his touch is awful. needs a extra three touches just to get it under control. by which time a lot of opportunity may well be squandered. if he gets back to his best (of recent years at least no chance of ever seeing 2004 rooney) he can do the job. but he's a marked man for England and hasn't got the ability to shake off defenders as the elite strikers can.

[Duty281]

Well clearly my 'pick Heskey' line was a joke, to reinforce how great my begging is.

Rooney is having a woeful season. He has been so beneath the required standard for so long. It's laughable.

Pick him at '9' and watch as the horrendous first touch slows down, and disrupts England's counter-attacks (as others have alluded to). Watch as he drops deeper and deeper in an effort to influence the game, but only succeeds in throwing off the balance. Watch as he squanders two or three good chances, before netting a tap-in/a penalty. Pick him at '10' and you have the added problem of the entire creative force of the team revolving around him.

Alternatively, don't bloody pick him! There's no good reason to.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Saying that you don't rate Carrick so I can't see myself being in line with your view on football

[Duty281]

Not my view, my darling, it's the view of many:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34506013

Let's take the seven highest-rated comments on that article:

Spoiler:

And we've got three Manchester United fans on here (HH, C+R, Ent) who, presumably, see Rooney play on a regular basis and say the same things.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Its your view, Duty, whether others share it or not. Saying that, calling on people who comment on articles as your defence would be like bringing Ched Evans and Adam Johnson for character references at a teaching interview.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I'm not saying Rooney is undroppable or should be guaranteed of a place. I'm just saying there isnt a great alternative right now that is worth ditching a man who is scoring for England, is captain and has the experience this squad lacks.

If Sturridge stays fit and fires in goals then by all means play him. If Kane does enough to show he has the quality. If Theo isn't just a greyhound with a sidefoot. But you have to take the shirt off a player like Rooney, as should be the motivation for all international places.

In fact, Oliver Kay sums up my thoughts exactly

Wayne Rooney? He stays in my team for now as he's still the most reliable goalscorer and, in this set-up, he would be helped by having speed and dynamism around him. But if Daniel Sturridge, when fit, or Harry Kane make a bigger impression between now and next summer, then Rooney will have to be the one that makes way.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

so, phil mcnulty has done his england side for the euro's on BBC, what's people's thoughts

(4-4-3)

------------------------ROONEY---------------------
--STERLING---------------------------------WALCOTT
-----------BARKLEY---------------WILSHERE---------
-----------------------CARRICK-----------------------
BAINES-----STONES--------SMALLING------CLYNE
------------------------HART-------------------------

Have no issue with the back 5. Midfield three is obviously fitness dependent, although if we play counter attacking football & having to do significant chasing, i'm not convinced carrick has the legs or wilshere has the fitness, i think an engine of henderson would be more preferable. is rooney a no. 9 or even guaranteed a slot, not for me. sterling is the £49m man, so is selected & then is walcott really a right sided wide man, not sure.

Not to far off what I'd like to see. Would hope Sturridge returns to form and takes the shirt off Rooney, replace Carrick with Henderson and play the ox instead of Walcott.

Do like the idea of Barkley and Wilshere in midfield together (if by some miracle wilshere is fit!).

It's a shame Shaw got injured cos I could've seen him ousting Baines - but can't see that happening with the injury he had

[Kay Fabe]

I'm really intrigued to see how England fare next Summer, you boys don't know how good you've got it having the excitement of a Summer International tournament every second Summer, wish it was me...

I look at England's squad and think it looks weaker than years gone by but then I look at it on paper and see how potentially exciting it could be too, I think the problem as has been the case for about 10 years now is that the rankings are as such that England always find themselves in a Qualifying group that has little to no competition to them so when it's time to up their game at Tournaments they find the step up difficult but with the pace of Walcot, Sturridge, Sterling and the guile of guys like Welbeck, Kane and Rooney I do think their emphasis should be on attack, England haven't looked like England at these tournaments since they tried to adopt a slower more methodical game plan after Euro2000

[Alistair]

It's very easy to slate Rooney now, but we all know he is capable of hitting a purple patch. There is a lot of football to be played between now and June.

If you are picking players on current form, then absolutely Rooney shouldn't be in the first XI, but then, nor would Harry Kane. Your starting front 3 would be Walcott, Vardy and The Ox.

In a 'top form' England XI, you'd have Hart, Walker, Cahill, Smalling, Baines, Wilshere, Carrick, Barkley, Sturridge, Walcott & Rooney. But right now, that XI is toilet.

I wouldn't personally have Henderson anywhere near the starting line up, he's going to be the next James Milner, not the next Steven Gerrard. He might have an engine, but I could run around the pitch for 90 minutes and look industrious.

Wilshere and Barkley (if fit) are your two centre midfielders, the holding role could be anyones. I'd play Sturridge and Walcott on the flanks and whoever is banging them in regularly through the middle. Kane for me drifts to the wing too often though and Rooney drops too deep. You need someone who can win the ball in the air, Carroll perhaps depending on if he stays fit.

I think the Euro's will come too soon for Shaw. Gibbs is poor, Bertrand needs more time, so you'd go with Baines. Walker and Clyne could battle it out for the whole season, but there are a few wildcards who could make an impression. Gomez, Cresswell, Galloway, Browning.

[Guest]

It's very easy to slate Rooney now, but we all know he is capable of hitting a purple patch. There is a lot of football to be played between now and June.

If you are picking players on current form, then absolutely Rooney shouldn't be in the first XI, but then, nor would Harry Kane. Your starting front 3 would be Walcott, Vardy and The Ox.

In a 'top form' England XI, you'd have Hart, Walker

And that's where I stopped reading

[Alistair]

It's very easy to slate Rooney now, but we all know he is capable of hitting a purple patch. There is a lot of football to be played between now and June.

If you are picking players on current form, then absolutely Rooney shouldn't be in the first XI, but then, nor would Harry Kane. Your starting front 3 would be Walcott, Vardy and The Ox.

In a 'top form' England XI, you'd have Hart, Walker

And that's where I stopped reading

Please, name a better RB than Walker when he's on form?

[Guest]

When he's on form? He's never on form, because he's an absolute pile of turd & everyone in England knows it. Walker has played like one game for England in over a year, that's why Clyne is the no.1 at RB

[Alistair]

Ok then.

[Kay Fabe]

He's not wrong to be fair Alistair, maybe turd was a bit harsh but you are falling into the same trap as many a past manager, they pick players on perceived reputation, for the record I also think Fraser Forster is a better keeper than me Joe Hart but that's just personal opinion

[Alistair]

He's not wrong to be fair Alistair, maybe turd was a bit harsh but you are falling into the same trap as many a past manager, they pick players on perceived reputation, for the record I also think Fraser Forster is a better keeper than me Joe Hart but that's just personal opinion

I'm saying if they were on 'top form' for me, Walker is a better defender on his best days than Clyne, that's based on experience. At this moment in time of course i would take Clyne, Walker has been poor for a while. Again, it's all hypothetical. People writing off Rooney, yet he could smash in 30 goals between now and June and people will have him as the saviour of England again.

The Hart/Forster one is close, as i think Forster is better at dealing with crosses and high balls than Hart, but for me, Hart is a better shot stopper.

[Kay Fabe]

What is "top form" though? That's a bit of an obvious statement that most people would take the better player if said better player was on top form, the problem is far to many managers in the past have played players because of experience, as they say, those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it, that's directed at fans as well as managers.

For the record I don't think Clyne or Walker are that good, Walker had a purple patch a few years ago and for me hasn't lived up to the billing since, I can't see that changing anytime soon

See the Hart/Forster comparison, I'd actually say Forster is a better shot stopper, his agility for someone so big is incredible, his weakness is definitely cross balls, when he comes for them he's fine but he doesn't command his area anywhere near the level a guy his size and stature should be doing

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