Pro12 value - the facts

First topic message reminder :

Broadcasting revenue. As revealed today by the CEO of PRW:

The French Top14 = £50m
Aviva Prem = £40m
Pro12 = £11.5m.

That is quite simply unsustainable if you want to be a professional rugby team in domestic Northern Hem rugby. Somethign has to change for the celtic teams, and quickly.

LordDowlais wrote:I agree with Griff on this. SecretFly suggested that we all talk about the positive things in our league, and what we could do to make it better, and I agreed with him, but I said to do that we all need to look in house and accept where we ALL have gone wrong, but only us Welsh are admitting anything at the moment, the Irish and the Scottish on this debate still think they have done nothing wrong, ever. It makes you wonder doesn't it ?

No what you are doing is accusing the Irish for not taking the league seriously as you have never seen a full strength Irish provincial side in Wales. This theory has been debunked on numerous occasions by numerous posters and yet you decline to respond when these facts a put clearly to you. You cannot continue to blame the Irish for having a larger strength in depth than Welsh clubs and as such are more capable to squad rotation and insist that the Irish don't take a league seriously (well against the Welsh anyways).

You have come on here and said that the Scottish teams are plumping their teams full of NSQ players, again something that has been debunked on here on numerous occasions. Still you claim this and continue to ignore when these facts a clearly placed before your eyes.

Personally, I have never blamed the Welsh solely for the issues in the league but do believe that it doesn't help when certain posters come on here continually spouting negativity about the league, its frustrating. The league is improving and will continue to improve I feel. Just that we need to invest more into training of referee's in the league to get them up to more consistent and acceptable performances, that's where I feel the league lacks somewhat.

Griff wrote:To be honest Lord I don't think they have done anything 'wrong'. And I've personally never blamed any other nation for our own inability to grow Pro12 rugby in Wales. But I do get annoyed when our suggestions for change are met aggressively. Rugby it would seem is hunky dory in Scotland and Ireland so should we in Wales just carry on, maintain the status quo, until our 4 rugby businesses are bankrupt. Or do we try to find a way of changing and evolving? It's very difficult to change when your partners are content with their lot as change will affect them. I get that, and I sympathise. But if they want a strong Pro12 then something drastic is going to have to happen with the Welsh and that's bound to affect the Irish and Scottish in some way too. Will they be willing to accept that knock-on effect though?

In other words the regions are in a basically being told (well on here anyway) 'Quit whinging about your struggles and do something about it, but if you are going to change something to ease your struggles make sure it will not effect any of us'

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

The Saint wrote:

TJ wrote:I have to say I am rapidly reaching the conclusion the pro 12 would be better of without the welsh carping on all the time blaming everyone and inventing weird conspiracy theories.

The Welsh, as you call it, have actually won the league a few times though. They bring more internationals to it and I'm willing to bet more cash(?). So perhaps it would actually be better off without the wooden spoon brigade. Anglo-Welsh and Irish league for the win.

If the supposed difference in the amount of revenue brought in by tv deals between pro12 nations is true it would be very interesting to see how the Pro12 would survive if we were to go.  Would the provinces still be able to sign All Blacks (or even retain Irish stars) on the penuts they would have in comparision to the French and English then?

And when they don't have the money to sign All Blacks to help them compete in Europe, THE WELSH will shoulder all the blame yet again.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Its an approach used by the French and English teams too just like Clermont and Toulon did at the weekend

We are not talking about their leagues though are we ? We are talking about getting the best deal we can for OUR league, and the other leagues dwarf what we are getting. People on here are saying we do not get as much as the others because of us Welsh squabbling with each other all the time, when that's only part of the truth, it is NOT all down to us Welsh, perhaps if other unions changed how they treated the league then perhaps we would get more bang for our buck, but it is very unfair to lay the blame at the feet of the Welsh. Perhaps if the Irish did not prioritise Europe over the league then we would have more sponsors willing to put money into it.

Im sorry I thought this thread was comparing the Pro12 against the AP and Top14 so yes we talking about their leagues. The Irish are the ones holding onto their big names and even if they do appear sporadically are greater marketing draws.

If you go back I put the difference at the fact that they are established leagues with a history, something the Pro12 is still trying to create and will take time to get to as the league in its current form is only 5 years old

Nobody has come on here and proved me wrong, all they have said is what you have said, strength in depth rubbish, and SQ players, but when I have countered with the time serving players, and the fact that the CC Irish players DO NOT play in the league regularly then I get those excuses thrown at me. Facts are, over the years the CC Irish players have rarely played in the league, and a big chunk of SQ players in Edinburgh are time serving players, none of us have done enough to make our league more marketable.

Griff wrote:What I find odd is that Welsh fans have grumblings about a league that they're not doing very well in, that's not working out for them, and that they struggle to attract fans to. This is tarnishing the league, apparently. The Irish have a number of similar grumblings about the new Premier Europ Comp, how it's not working out for them, how they'd make some changes to better suit them (or not make the recent changes in the first place), yet this grumbling is somehow seen as different?  I don't see the Welsh, Scottish or Italians with similar complaints about the comp. Surely that bellyaching from Irish fans will 'tarnish the league' (the 606 catch phrase of the week) and damage it from the point of view of potential sponsors too? For shame.

If something is not working out for you then I think it's right to discuss, debate, analyse, suggest ideas for a way forward for your own business/league/cup interests. But everyone should be afforded the right to do it. For the Welsh its the Pro12, for the Irish it's the Euro Comp. Next week it might be something different...

No, the Welsh not doing better in the league isn't what is tarnishing it, but why they are not doing better in the league may be? The constant fight between WRU and the Regions, the denigrating of the league by the few Regional fans, and not least by RRW during the Euro fight last season.

I don't have any grumblings about the new Euro competition....yet. I did say I would give it until the end of season before deciding what I think of it, and I will. I will say this though, throughout those seasons when Ulster were European fodder I still loved the competition. I thought it was the best show on planet earth, outside of the 6Ns, and it was. If I do have a complaint about the new competition it won't be because my team is failing. It will be because the new competition has failed to live up to the original.

Munchkin wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:The League is not perfect we all admit that but is it as bad as some would have you believe?

Since the inception of Regions Wales have had their most successful period since the 70s, is that because of the league or despite it?

The Irish have also had a very successful period Internationally and have enjoyed numerous successes in Europe with theie Provinces, again is that because or despite the league system?

We know the Welsh regions can't compete with the English and French but the clubs couldn't have either and in fact the clubs were always poaching off each other and offering 'incentives' to players to join them long before the pro era.

We also know that the Provinces rested players early on in the season and saved them for Europe but now with the new qualifying system I think we will see that change and there will be more meaningful games towards end of the season.

Will these new DCs help the Regions, again only time will tell.  There is too much rugby on TV but as its a big slice of the revenue for the league it won't change anytime soon but the Regions/Provinces/Clubs should have more say in when they play their games rather than the TVs dictate.

The Dragons have been hammered this year with Sunday games and as Chunky has eluded to in previous posts who in their right mind arranges a Welsh derby match on a Sunday FFS.  The games should be at prime time as to attract the biggest amount of fans possible.  But public transport to West Wales on a Sunday is poor at best.

No, it isn't bad at all. It's improving, and it's growing, despite the wails of the disgruntled few.

Disgruntled few? I thought it was the 3 million people in Wales... Least that's what some on here will have you believe.

LordDowlais wrote:Nobody has come on here and proved me wrong, all they have said is what you have said, strength in depth rubbish, and SQ players, but when I have countered with the time serving players, and the fact that the CC Irish players DO NOT play in the league regularly then I get those excuses thrown at me. Facts are, over the years the CC Irish players have rarely played in the league, and a big chunk of SQ players in Edinburgh are time serving players, none of us have done enough to make our league more marketable.

Actually, many have countered you and proved you wrong.

What do you consider strength in depth then?

On Sunday you accused Leinster of fielding a second string side. A side that contained 8+ international representative players. They played a Dragons team who you claimed put out their strongest team and very nearly beat them if it was not for one bit of madness in getting a yellow card.

If a second string (as you assume it is) can have so many international representative's and still run a full strength Dragons team so close is not Strength in depth, then what is it?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Its an approach used by the French and English teams too just like Clermont and Toulon did at the weekend

We are not talking about their leagues though are we ? We are talking about getting the best deal we can for OUR league, and the other leagues dwarf what we are getting. People on here are saying we do not get as much as the others because of us Welsh squabbling with each other all the time, when that's only part of the truth, it is NOT all down to us Welsh, perhaps if other unions changed how they treated the league then perhaps we would get more bang for our buck, but it is very unfair to lay the blame at the feet of the Welsh. Perhaps if the Irish did not prioritise Europe over the league then we would have more sponsors willing to put money into it.

No it certainly isn't down to us welsh, like some Irish and an anti-welsh Scot would have you believe. It's also nothing to do with the Irish provinces resting players, which was discussed in fine detail yesterday. Not sure why you keep blowing the same trumpet.

Griff wrote:What I find odd is that Welsh fans have grumblings about a league that they're not doing very well in, that's not working out for them, and that they struggle to attract fans to. This is tarnishing the league, apparently. The Irish have a number of similar grumblings about the new Premier Europ Comp, how it's not working out for them, how they'd make some changes to better suit them (or not make the recent changes in the first place), yet this grumbling is somehow seen as different?  I don't see the Welsh, Scottish or Italians with similar complaints about the comp. Surely that bellyaching from Irish fans will 'tarnish the league' (the 606 catch phrase of the week) and damage it from the point of view of potential sponsors too? For shame.

If something is not working out for you then I think it's right to discuss, debate, analyse, suggest ideas for a way forward for your own business/league/cup interests. But everyone should be afforded the right to do it. For the Welsh its the Pro12, for the Irish it's the Euro Comp. Next week it might be something different...

I think the difference is that the new competition was set up in many ways because the Irish kept winning the old one and it put the collective French and English nose out of joint because it is their god given right to win everything ever and as such the Irish are aggrieved, whereas I'm not sure the Pro12 was set up to hinder the Welsh.
I do think that people are overcomplicating things, the truth is that the money in Britain and Ireland is in the English audience and primarily in the South East that's why the English got their way over Europe and that's why they get more money from BT. There isn't a man saying in the BT or SKY board meetings "we did have this £40m set aside for the Pro12 but then the Welsh regions started arguing and their fans argue a lot on internet forums", nor does the average English casual observer have a clue about the average Irish rugby player, I don't mean the big names, and so the sides the Irish choose to put out has very little influence. If it did the Pro12 would make changes to ensure that every team played certain big name players as often as possible to ensure extra income.
The only way for the league to reach parity with the other European Leagues income wise is to attempt to replicate Super Rugby, by playing a good brand of rugby with big stars, that means keeping the Best Celtic players in the Celtic nations and by competing for the best SANZAR players when they choose to move to Europe, it's also small things like improving the fan experience, Edinburgh play in front of 50000-60000 empty seats every week, which doesn't look great, furthermore if we had more artificial pitches or even roofs like the stadium in the Dunedin, which would mean we get more attacking rugby. That's why the Stay in the Pro12 rule would work, it would also add to the league as you'd have more players returning to their old club making it more interesting.
Until they do that there is no real reason for Celtic players to stay in the Celtic league or for the best foreign players to choose to come here over France, in France you get higher wages and better weather. I've been to Wales and I've been to Toulon and I can assure you Leigh Halfpenny had the right idea, Toulon should just be grateful he clearly hadn't been to Glasgow beforehand, so the way to increase revenue is to improve the overall standard of rugby on the pitch but also performance in the European Cup. Let's not kid ourselves without Leinster and Munster the league would be worth even less than it already is to broadcasters and in much the same way Treviso and Zebre are hugely detrimental to the competition and undermine it.

but only us Welsh are admitting anything at the moment, the Irish and the Scottish on this debate still think they have done nothing wrong, ever. It makes you wonder doesn't it ?

Please stop playing the victim it's getting tedious now.

Munchkin wrote: I thought it was the best show on planet earth, outside of the 6Ns, and it was. If I do have a complaint about the new competition it won't be because my team is failing. It will be because the new competition has failed to live up to the original.

And there lies the issue, only in our league do the fans put Europe above our own league, in England and France they put their league first, Europe is a nice extra, we need to start putting our league first, only when we see the league as our main competition will we then see more people willing to pay extra for it.

Munchkin wrote:

Griff wrote:What I find odd is that Welsh fans have grumblings about a league that they're not doing very well in, that's not working out for them, and that they struggle to attract fans to. This is tarnishing the league, apparently. The Irish have a number of similar grumblings about the new Premier Europ Comp, how it's not working out for them, how they'd make some changes to better suit them (or not make the recent changes in the first place), yet this grumbling is somehow seen as different?  I don't see the Welsh, Scottish or Italians with similar complaints about the comp. Surely that bellyaching from Irish fans will 'tarnish the league' (the 606 catch phrase of the week) and damage it from the point of view of potential sponsors too? For shame.

If something is not working out for you then I think it's right to discuss, debate, analyse, suggest ideas for a way forward for your own business/league/cup interests. But everyone should be afforded the right to do it. For the Welsh its the Pro12, for the Irish it's the Euro Comp. Next week it might be something different...

No, the Welsh not doing better in the league isn't what is tarnishing it, but why they are not doing better in the league may be? The constant fight between WRU and the Regions, the denigrating of the league by the few Regional fans, and not least by RRW during the Euro fight last season.

I don't have any grumblings about the new Euro competition....yet. I did say I would give it until the end of season before deciding what I think of it, and I will. I will say this though, throughout those seasons when Ulster were European fodder I still loved the competition. I thought it was the best show on planet earth, outside of the 6Ns, and it was. If I do have a complaint about the new competition it won't be because my team is failing. It will be because the new competition has failed to live up to the original.

Firstly, the denigrating of the league only happens on 606v2. I don't see it happening in the media, by the regions or by the players. They're all behind it from what I've seen. You have to seperate 606 from reality. I go to the Dragons with up to 12 people. We discuss rugby. I have talked about 606v2 and only one of them had even heard of it. And I think he was talking about old 606 to be honest. It's not that well known. So any 'denigrating' on here won't work against the league and sponsors, as some have claimed.

On the second point Munchkin. You may not have grumblings but plenty of Irish fans do. There were numberous threads on it and the 'conspiracy' to weaken Irish chances in the cup, etc.

123456789 wrote:
I think the difference is that the new competition was set up in many ways because the Irish kept winning the old one and it put the collective French and English nose out of joint because it is their god given right to win everything ever and as such the Irish are aggrieved, whereas I'm not sure the Pro12 was set up to hinder the Welsh.

The new euro rugby tournament was never going to stop the Irish winning it. Leinster, Munster and Ulster have been consistently (bar the odd blip maybe) top 6 Pro12 sides, so would always qualify for the tournament. However the likes of Edinburgh, Scarlets, Connacht (only occasionally got in), Blues, Treviso and Zebre on the other hand were the sides that were most likely to be suffering from the new tournament.

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:so close is not Strength in depth, then what is it?

It is not putting the best players on show. If I was a sponsor wanting to put money into our league, and you showed me last Sundays Leinster team, and then showed me this weekends Leinster team, I know which one I would want to see my brand attached every week. If I was watching last weekends team every week in the league, then seeing Leinster put the side for this weekend out when not in the league, as a sponsor I would be less inclined to put money down.

Nachos - yesterday I pointed out that Leinster had over 8 internationals in their starting line up in an effort to allude to their strength in depth opposed to belittling the league. Dragons put out the best team available - we don't have any depth and are missing key players in Byrne, Dee, Stankovich, Landman and Coombes. Our team is littered with youngsters with little/no experience. I think we've done well considering. Leach, Screech and GRJ apart our bench was awful. So if LD claimed we were at full strength he could not be further from the truth...and not for the first time.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

123456789 wrote:
I think the difference is that the new competition was set up in many ways because the Irish kept winning the old one and it put the collective French and English nose out of joint because it is their god given right to win everything ever and as such the Irish are aggrieved, whereas I'm not sure the Pro12 was set up to hinder the Welsh.

The new euro rugby tournament was never going to stop the Irish winning it.  Leinster, Munster and Ulster have been consistently (bar the odd blip maybe) top 6 Pro12 sides, so would always qualify for the tournament.  However the likes of Edinburgh, Scarlets, Connacht (only occasionally got in), Blues, Treviso and Zebre on the other hand were the sides that were most likely to be suffering from the new tournament.

That was poorly worded, my point is that it was because the Irish kept winning it that the English and French wanted it changed.

123456789 wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

123456789 wrote:
I think the difference is that the new competition was set up in many ways because the Irish kept winning the old one and it put the collective French and English nose out of joint because it is their god given right to win everything ever and as such the Irish are aggrieved, whereas I'm not sure the Pro12 was set up to hinder the Welsh.

The new euro rugby tournament was never going to stop the Irish winning it.  Leinster, Munster and Ulster have been consistently (bar the odd blip maybe) top 6 Pro12 sides, so would always qualify for the tournament.  However the likes of Edinburgh, Scarlets, Connacht (only occasionally got in), Blues, Treviso and Zebre on the other hand were the sides that were most likely to be suffering from the new tournament.

That was poorly worded, my point is that it was because the Irish kept winning it that the English and French wanted it changed.

Yeah that's the impression I got as well. Still, I'm okay with the new format of our league and the ECC - though I think the ECC winner should be the one who qualifies for the top tier comp the following season. The 7th place play-off round-robin idea is a bit silly.

Rubbish 123. Everything goes in cycles. It's actually the French who look the strongest.

LordDowlais wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:so close is not Strength in depth, then what is it?

It is not putting the best players on show. If I was a sponsor wanting to put money into our league, and you showed me last Sundays Leinster team, and then showed me this weekends Leinster team, I know which one I would want to see my brand attached every week. If I was watching last weekends team every week in the league, then seeing Leinster put the side for this weekend out when not in the league, as a sponsor I would be less inclined to put money down.

Let me put it another way then. If your club team was on the verge of a European cup semi final and had the same strength in depth to field 8+ international representative's in a so called second string side, would you not agree to having your so called stars rested for this premier semi final? A semi final that will draw attention to your club and possible investments from sponsors due to such success?

If a Pro-12 club wins in Europe, would there not be some interest from sponsors for the league that they play in?

The Saint wrote:Nachos - yesterday I pointed out that Leinster had over 8 internationals in their starting line up in an effort to allude to their strength in depth opposed to belittling the league. Dragons put out the best team available - we don't have any depth and are missing key players in Byrne, Dee, Stankovich, Landman and Coombes. Our team is littered with youngsters with little/no experience. I think we've done well considering. Leach, Screech and GRJ apart our bench was awful. So if LD claimed we were at full strength he could not be further from the truth...and not for the first time.

The dragons have actually done remarkably well considering the injuries they have had this season and are developing some very good young players.

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:Let me put it another way then. If your club team was on the verge of a European cup semi final and had the same strength in depth to field 8+ international representative's in a so called second string side, would you not agree to having your so called stars rested for this premier semi final? A semi final that will draw attention to your club and possible investments from sponsors due to such success?

If a Pro-12 club wins in Europe, would there not be some interest from sponsors for the league that they play in?

Nacho, I am not saying that the provinces are doing anything wrong by resting star players, if that is what is best for Ireland and the provinces, then fine, but it is not what is best for the league, and that is what we are talking about here, as I have said earlier, only in our league do we see Europe as being the main priority, in England and France, their league comes first, it is their MAIN competition, when we are not seeing our league as our main competition, because we would rather win the CC, then why would anybody want to sponsor our league ?

LordDowlais wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:Let me put it another way then. If your club team was on the verge of a European cup semi final and had the same strength in depth to field 8+ international representative's in a so called second string side, would you not agree to having your so called stars rested for this premier semi final? A semi final that will draw attention to your club and possible investments from sponsors due to such success?

If a Pro-12 club wins in Europe, would there not be some interest from sponsors for the league that they play in?

Nacho, I am not saying that the provinces are doing anything wrong by resting star players, if that is what is best for Ireland and the provinces, then fine, but it is not what is best for the league, and that is what we are talking about here, as I have said earlier, only in our league do we see Europe as being the main priority, in England and France, their league comes first, it is their MAIN competition, when we are not seeing our league as our main competition, because we would rather win the CC, then why would anybody want to sponsor our league ?

Did their clubs and director boards personally tell you that? With the bottom 6/7 in the Top14 you might have a point, but the Top14 is a different ball game in world rugby. Anyone with eyes not fixated on the euro league has something wrong IMO - it brings a number of benefits and great revenue to the team.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Rubbish 123. Everything goes in cycles. It's actually the French who look the strongest.

...Using purchasing power that Pro12 sides can't match and AP are getting more impatient with by the day at seeing happen, whilst clinging in principle to their self-curtailing capping policy.

So the pressure will come for that AP cap to go.  French rugby can't and won't be let run away with all best players who come on the market.  That will be stalled one way or another in the coming seasons.  But my only disappointment is that the French 'advantage' was never aired during the formation of the new contest when we might all have had something constructive to say to balance that 'advantage' out.  The AP cap will go.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Rubbish 123. Everything goes in cycles. It's actually the French who look the strongest.

The French yes, the English no. Their last win was 2007 and the French is all based on money not development systems etc. Toulon will win more often than not for the foreseeable because they have such strength in depth and the way the French league works means they can afford to rest their stars anyway.
I agree with you on the cycles but I think it's that the French teams invest in the best players and so they get more money from the broadcasters and so can invest more in the best players meaning that they win.

LordDowlais wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:Let me put it another way then. If your club team was on the verge of a European cup semi final and had the same strength in depth to field 8+ international representative's in a so called second string side, would you not agree to having your so called stars rested for this premier semi final? A semi final that will draw attention to your club and possible investments from sponsors due to such success?

If a Pro-12 club wins in Europe, would there not be some interest from sponsors for the league that they play in?

Nacho, I am not saying that the provinces are doing anything wrong by resting star players, if that is what is best for Ireland and the provinces, then fine, but it is not what is best for the league, and that is what we are talking about here, as I have said earlier, only in our league do we see Europe as being the main priority, in England and France, their league comes first, it is their MAIN competition, when we are not seeing our league as our main competition, because we would rather win the CC, then why would anybody want to sponsor our league ?

Actually, that is not entirely true especially for the French who probably put out more second string sides in their club competition than anyone else.

If, and I do mean if, Leinster manage to win the European Cup. Would that not be very good for the Pro-12 league as it would almost certainly get more sponsorship for the league. A league containing the current European champions is a little goldmine in waiting and would be perfect for the league. Would you then begrudge a side for resting players as it would in the long run be advantageous for the league.

It may just be me but I would certainly sacrifice short term gain for long time success.

LordDowlais wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:Let me put it another way then. If your club team was on the verge of a European cup semi final and had the same strength in depth to field 8+ international representative's in a so called second string side, would you not agree to having your so called stars rested for this premier semi final? A semi final that will draw attention to your club and possible investments from sponsors due to such success?

If a Pro-12 club wins in Europe, would there not be some interest from sponsors for the league that they play in?

Nacho, I am not saying that the provinces are doing anything wrong by resting star players, if that is what is best for Ireland and the provinces, then fine, but it is not what is best for the league, and that is what we are talking about here, as I have said earlier, only in our league do we see Europe as being the main priority, in England and France, their league comes first, it is their MAIN competition, when we are not seeing our league as our main competition, because we would rather win the CC, then why would anybody want to sponsor our league ?

Really? Because you seem to be ignoring Clermont and Toulon resting players a the weekend like Leinster did and was pointed out earlier

123456789 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Rubbish 123. Everything goes in cycles. It's actually the French who look the strongest.

The French yes, the English no. Their last win was 2007 and the French is all based on money not development systems etc. Toulon will win more often than not for the foreseeable because they have such strength in depth and the way the French league works means they can afford to rest their stars anyway.
I agree with you on the cycles but I think it's that the French teams invest in the best players and so they get more money from the broadcasters and so can invest more in the best players meaning that they win.

Which happened anyway. The change certainly wasn't to stop the Irish.

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Rubbish 123. Everything goes in cycles. It's actually the French who look the strongest.

...Using purchasing power that Pro12 sides can't match and AP are getting more impatient with by the day at seeing happen, whilst clinging in principle to their self-curtailing capping policy.

So the pressure will come for that AP cap to go.  French rugby can't and won't be let run away with all best players who come on the market.  That will be stalled one way or another in the coming seasons.  But my only disappointment is that the French 'advantage' was never aired during the formation of the new contest when we might all have had something constructive to say to balance that 'advantage' out.  The AP cap will go.

May do but I doubt it.

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Rubbish 123. Everything goes in cycles. It's actually the French who look the strongest.

...Using purchasing power that Pro12 sides can't match and AP are getting more impatient with by the day at seeing happen, whilst clinging in principle to their self-curtailing capping policy.

So the pressure will come for that AP cap to go.  French rugby can't and won't be let run away with all best players who come on the market.  That will be stalled one way or another in the coming seasons.  But my only disappointment is that the French 'advantage' was never aired during the formation of the new contest when we might all have had something constructive to say to balance that 'advantage' out.  The AP cap will go.

Were there not representatives of the IRFU at the meetings? Did the IRFU not sign off on the new tournament? Surely if they were concerned about the runaway juggernaut of the T14, they would have fought to have a X% national qualified rule or an agreed maximum salary cap for the ERC squads? Seeing as they signed off on the tournament, you have to come to the conclusion that they are happy with the tournament as it is.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

123456789 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Rubbish 123. Everything goes in cycles. It's actually the French who look the strongest.

The French yes, the English no. Their last win was 2007 and the French is all based on money not development systems etc. Toulon will win more often than not for the foreseeable because they have such strength in depth and the way the French league works means they can afford to rest their stars anyway.
I agree with you on the cycles but I think it's that the French teams invest in the best players and so they get more money from the broadcasters and so can invest more in the best players meaning that they win.

Which happened anyway. The change certainly wasn't to stop the Irish.

Not to stop the Irish but to help the English and French. But quite frankly that debate has been and gone and it's not what this about so I'm not getting into it.

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:Let me put it another way then. If your club team was on the verge of a European cup semi final and had the same strength in depth to field 8+ international representative's in a so called second string side, would you not agree to having your so called stars rested for this premier semi final? A semi final that will draw attention to your club and possible investments from sponsors due to such success?

If a Pro-12 club wins in Europe, would there not be some interest from sponsors for the league that they play in?

Nacho, I am not saying that the provinces are doing anything wrong by resting star players, if that is what is best for Ireland and the provinces, then fine, but it is not what is best for the league, and that is what we are talking about here, as I have said earlier, only in our league do we see Europe as being the main priority, in England and France, their league comes first, it is their MAIN competition, when we are not seeing our league as our main competition, because we would rather win the CC, then why would anybody want to sponsor our league ?

Actually, that is not entirely true especially for the French who probably put out more second string sides in their club competition than anyone else.

If, and I do mean if, Leinster manage to win the European Cup. Would that not be very good for the Pro-12 league as it would almost certainly get more sponsorship for the league. A league containing the current European champions is a little goldmine in waiting and would be perfect for the league. Would you then begrudge a side for resting players as it would in the long run be advantageous for the league.

It may just be me but I would certainly sacrifice short term gain for long time success.

History has not backed that up though has it. The League has had the HEC champions in it, its had the Amlin champions in it etc, and I can't remember a big TV deal, or huge sponsorship deal suddenly rearing its head.

So why bring it up in the 1st place? 'That was poorly worded, my point is that it was because the Irish kept winning it that the English and French wanted it changed'

Why go on about god given rights? Fair enough to leave just get over it.

I see it very simply myself. Success in Europe garners more investment and sponsorship, essentially a rebranding of the league.

The top clubs have a strength in depth which affords them an excellent opportunity for squad rotation which keeps players fresh and relatively injury free. I see absolutely nothing wrong in clubs (like Leinster) doing this rotation for success as in the end, it is also beneficial to the league in which they play.

Like it or lump it but success in Europe is the pinnacle of club rugby.

The best thing for the Pro12 is for Leinster and Edinburgh/ Dragons to win the European Cups.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:

Actually, that is not entirely true especially for the French who probably put out more second string sides in their club competition than anyone else.

If, and I do mean if, Leinster manage to win the European Cup. Would that not be very good for the Pro-12 league as it would almost certainly get more sponsorship for the league. A league containing the current European champions is a little goldmine in waiting and would be perfect for the league. Would you then begrudge a side for resting players as it would in the long run be advantageous for the league.

It may just be me but I would certainly sacrifice short term gain for long time success.

History has not backed that up though has it.  The League has had the HEC champions in it, its had the Amlin champions in it etc, and I can't remember a big TV deal, or huge sponsorship deal suddenly rearing its head.

It has kept sponsors has it not? As the old saying goes, sometimes keeping your best player is the best signing you can make.

If all teams in the Pro-12 did not perform (or even play) in Europe, would there be any interest in the league at all from sponsors?

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:

Actually, that is not entirely true especially for the French who probably put out more second string sides in their club competition than anyone else.

If, and I do mean if, Leinster manage to win the European Cup. Would that not be very good for the Pro-12 league as it would almost certainly get more sponsorship for the league. A league containing the current European champions is a little goldmine in waiting and would be perfect for the league. Would you then begrudge a side for resting players as it would in the long run be advantageous for the league.

It may just be me but I would certainly sacrifice short term gain for long time success.

History has not backed that up though has it.  The League has had the HEC champions in it, its had the Amlin champions in it etc, and I can't remember a big TV deal, or huge sponsorship deal suddenly rearing its head.

It has kept sponsors has it not? As the old saying goes, sometimes keeping your best player is the best signing you can make.

If all teams in the Pro-12 did not perform (or even play) in Europe, would there be any interest in the league at all from sponsors?

Quit moving the goal posts. You said

"If, and I do mean if, Leinster manage to win the European Cup. Would that not be very good for the Pro-12 league as it would almost certainly get more sponsorship for the league. A league containing the current European champions is a little goldmine in waiting and would be perfect for the league. Would you then begrudge a side for resting players as it would in the long run be advantageous for the league."

And that has not happened in the past. Not when Leinster won the HEC or the Amlin, not when Munster won the HEC, and not when the Blues won the Amlin. Also has it actually helped retain sponsorship, or did the number of bottles of Mangers shifted due to sponsorship manage to hold on to them etc?

Griff wrote:Unfortunately since then it's become a development competition so time to knock it on the head IMO.

Disagree with this. The LV Cup is an extremely important link between the English and the Welsh. Cross border competitions are difficult to get ratified by the IRB. And I've already shown what the Irish tried to do to the Welsh teams last time they wanted to improve their income streams. (Damn Welsh upstarts trying to stay in buisness)

It needs to be kept no matter how developmental it has become.....because who knows what it could evolve into in a few years time.

123456789 wrote:The best thing for the Pro12 is for Leinster and Edinburgh/ Dragons to win the European Cups.

It would certainly be nice to see that happen. I am not sure it would really make much difference to the league financially, however it may mean that teams will not take either the Dragons lightly (cough Leinster), or Edinburgh lightly (cough Scarlets) next season.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Griff wrote:Unfortunately since then it's become a development competition so time to knock it on the head IMO.

Disagree with this. The LV Cup is an extremely important link between the English and the Welsh. Cross border competitions are difficult to get ratified by the IRB. And I've already shown what the Irish tried to do to the Welsh teams last time they wanted to improve their income streams. (Damn Welsh upstarts trying to stay in buisness)

It needs to be kept no matter how developmental it has become.....because who knows what it could evolve into in a few years time.

Also seeing as the LV= is played during the international windows, sometimes on the day of the internationals too, and does not involve stars from either side, it does actually get some decent support. I would say it may even get better support than games against Connacht or the Scottish during the same period.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:

Actually, that is not entirely true especially for the French who probably put out more second string sides in their club competition than anyone else.

If, and I do mean if, Leinster manage to win the European Cup. Would that not be very good for the Pro-12 league as it would almost certainly get more sponsorship for the league. A league containing the current European champions is a little goldmine in waiting and would be perfect for the league. Would you then begrudge a side for resting players as it would in the long run be advantageous for the league.

It may just be me but I would certainly sacrifice short term gain for long time success.

History has not backed that up though has it.  The League has had the HEC champions in it, its had the Amlin champions in it etc, and I can't remember a big TV deal, or huge sponsorship deal suddenly rearing its head.

It has kept sponsors has it not? As the old saying goes, sometimes keeping your best player is the best signing you can make.

If all teams in the Pro-12 did not perform (or even play) in Europe, would there be any interest in the league at all from sponsors?

Quit moving the goal posts.  You said

"If, and I do mean if, Leinster manage to win the European Cup. Would that not be very good for the Pro-12 league as it would almost certainly get more sponsorship for the league. A league containing the current European champions is a little goldmine in waiting and would be perfect for the league. Would you then begrudge a side for resting players as it would in the long run be advantageous for the league."

And that has not happened in the past.  Not when Leinster won the HEC or the Amlin, not when Munster won the HEC, and not when the Blues won the Amlin.  Also has it actually helped retain sponsorship, or did the number of bottles of Mangers shifted due to sponsorship manage to hold on to them etc?

As I was trying to say Scarlet when I said this (sometimes keeping your best player is the best signing you can make.) , it is a goldmine in waiting when you can keep a sponsor these days. It also generates interest in the league (bums on seats) and does raise interest of potential sponsors.

Thought that it was clear but must not have been, my apologies.

Simply put, no success (or playing) in Europe would automatically lose sponsor interest.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Were there not representatives of the IRFU at the meetings?  Did the IRFU not sign off on the new tournament?  Surely if they were concerned about the runaway juggernaut of the T14, they would have fought to have a X% national qualified rule or an agreed maximum salary cap for the ERC squads?  Seeing as they signed off on the tournament, you have to come to the conclusion that they are happy with the tournament as it is.

Happy?  

In a gun to the head way yes.  

Just read Head of IRFU through that year.  Oh he was very happy with everything and didn't think any of it was rotten

It's like claiming the Welsh Regions are happy with everything they have now in Pro12 because they signed the agreement, when we all know they would have much preferred joining up with the English in a Anglo/Welsh League.

You get on with what you get.  But as the Welsh keep stabbing at the Pro12 I guess we'll keep stabbing at the ERCC.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Also seeing as the LV= is played during the international windows, sometimes on the day of the internationals too, and does not involve stars from either side, it does actually get some decent support.  I would say it may even get better support than games against Connacht or the Scottish during the same period.

Last season, Cardiff had a bigger crowd for an LV game against Worcester, than they did for Munster 2 weeks later in the league.

SecretFly wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Were there not representatives of the IRFU at the meetings?  Did the IRFU not sign off on the new tournament?  Surely if they were concerned about the runaway juggernaut of the T14, they would have fought to have a X% national qualified rule or an agreed maximum salary cap for the ERC squads?  Seeing as they signed off on the tournament, you have to come to the conclusion that they are happy with the tournament as it is.

Happy?  

In a gun to the head way yes.  

Just read Head of IRFU through that year.  Oh he was very happy with everything and didn't think any of it was rotten

It's like claiming the Welsh Regions are happy with everything they have now in Pro12 because they signed the agreement, when we all know they would have much preferred joining up with the English in a Anglo/Welsh League.

You get on with what you get.  But as the Welsh keep stabbing at the Pro12 I guess we'll keep stabbing at the ERCC.

Funny enough that was more or less what I was going to say, but other way around

ScarletSpiderman wrote:  Also has it actually helped retain sponsorship, or did the number of bottles of Mangers shifted due to sponsorship manage to hold on to them etc?

Is Guinness not a tad bigger a sponsor than Magners?  

Wasn't it HEC finals that Pro12 sides were involved in that gave the HEC the amazing bounce in popularity mid-way through the last decade, that dragged sponsors in to capture the greed for more HEC, and finally dragged in the strangers BT in to attempt a killing on the product that Pro12 sides more than played their part in creating through the last decade?  

If the Pro12 failed at marketing that recognition then yep, Pro12 failed - but IRFU are only one of a bunch of four.  I remember in that time the Welsh were still arguing about the problem of clubs being made into Regions that no Welsh club supporter would support on principle.......  

We lost the chance to market ourselves more powerfully under one positive voice.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Funny enough that was more or less what I was going to say, but other way around

Well that's an advance.  If we use a mirror, we agree with each other.

SecretFly wrote:Welshmushroom talks a good deal of sense.  But he's right that sense will not be allowed interfere with money making progress from the suits that control the marketing of rugby as distinct from the people that control the practicality of what goes on on the field.

I like the idea of spreading players out through Pro12 rather than into the other competing leagues - after all, this is a business world, we keep being reminded of that cold hard fact; and these two other Leagues (AP and Top 14) ARE competitors - Competitors for players, for coaches and for audiences and TV broadcasting money.  So treat them as the rivals they are and yes, find methods to encourage players within the Pro12 League to at least stay within the League if they want to shift around and find a better deal.

That would be tough too because you can't change the fact that most money will be with AP and Top14 but I've often wondered why no Welsh players, for example, who had claimed desires to win European titles, ever came west to Irish Provinces rather than into England or France.  Tommy Bowe did his time in Wales but that cross over between Pro12 sides seems minimal to me.

I would still like to limit numbers of migrants, even from each other, but it would be a much more ideal objective to give incentives to certain players to move within the League if they felt the compulsion to move from their initial Province/Region/Club.

Cheers - not often I get applauded for talking sense

I have to say I really think the idea could be a great long term strategy.

That aside though I have to say I'm really impressed by the standard of rugby this year. More good games than herrings this year without doubt. I also think Sky can really add to the tournament and if the management and the Pro12 can start potentially not giving out as many various free to air tv deals in the long term the money from sky could increase dramatically. I think part of the reason the Sky deal is so low at the moment is that they dont have exclusivity on the league.

You can tell the league is getting tougher though because this year is the first time Leinster wont make the playoffs. Imagine the odds from a booky on that one at the beinning of the season. Could have paid the house of on that one!!

To be honest I've no clue who's going to win this year.

SecretFly wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:  Also has it actually helped retain sponsorship, or did the number of bottles of Mangers shifted due to sponsorship manage to hold on to them etc?

Is Guinness not a tad bigger a sponsor than Magners?  

Ah check mate, Guinness sponsored the Pro12 when we didn't have a HEC champion

I do get the point though, but to just say having a Euro Champ in the league will mean more money into the league, as if that is the law, just doesn't work.

As for the sepeculation that it was the Pro12 sides (well the Irish sides) doing well that increased the interest, is really just that. I'm not sure you could really say it was that, or the French all improving (the likes of Clermont, USAP, Toulon emerging). Or was it even that Sky did a good marketing job and were really starting to push the product. BT buying into sport full stop, has nothing to do with any sport, but it does have to do with trying to combat Sky's incroaching upon the broadband and communications side of the business.

And finally for the one voice together stuff. I agree we would be better standing together, but from the start we have not done so (see the link Chunky posted), and over the past few seasons the rift (especially amongst fans) has really opened up. From a welsh regional fans view point, the Irish/Scots wanted to see us go belly up rather than help us, and from an Irish/Scots viewpoint the regions are money grabbing devils.

I don't want the regions to go belly up. I think you'll find more Welsh people who want that than people outside Wales.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:  Also has it actually helped retain sponsorship, or did the number of bottles of Mangers shifted due to sponsorship manage to hold on to them etc?

Is Guinness not a tad bigger a sponsor than Magners?  

Ah check mate, Guinness sponsored the Pro12 when we didn't have a HEC champion

I do get the point though, but to just say having a Euro Champ in the league will mean more money into the league, as if that is the law, just doesn't work.

As for the sepeculation that it was the Pro12 sides (well the Irish sides) doing well that increased the interest, is really just that.  I'm not sure you could really say it was that, or the French all improving (the likes of Clermont, USAP, Toulon emerging).  Or was it even that Sky did a good marketing job and were really  starting to push the product.  BT buying into sport full stop, has nothing to do with any sport, but it does have to do with trying to combat Sky's incroaching upon the broadband and communications side of the business.

And finally for the one voice together stuff.  I agree we would be better standing together, but from the start we have not done so (see the link Chunky posted), and over the past few seasons the rift (especially amongst fans) has really opened up.  From a welsh regional fans view point, the Irish/Scots wanted to see us go belly up rather than help us, and from an Irish/Scots viewpoint the regions are money grabbing devils.

TBH from a Scottish point of view, I think we were a bit miffed that RRW seemed to want to bugger off to England but apart from that, we have been too busy trying to sort out our own house for the last few years. We seem to be on the right track at last (at least in the Pro12) and have sort of being relying on the Irish to fight our Euro battles for us. Thanks for that btw.

ScarletSpiderman wrote: from an Irish/Scots viewpoint the regions are money grabbing devils.

They're not very good at it.