Pro12 value - the facts

First topic message reminder :

Broadcasting revenue. As revealed today by the CEO of PRW:

The French Top14 = £50m
Aviva Prem = £40m
Pro12 = £11.5m.

That is quite simply unsustainable if you want to be a professional rugby team in domestic Northern Hem rugby. Somethign has to change for the celtic teams, and quickly.

TJ wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

TJ wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Just a thought, and trying to fling the muck elsewhere too.  Don't the Scottish also have to take some blame?  How many of their 6Ns squad play outside of the Pro12 (wiki says 9), and after the summer there will be even more playing elsewhere.  The Italians only had 11 players playing outside of the Pro12.   And the Welsh had 11 (even though some of those were are not capped yet).

Scotland have only two teams.  If we only selected from them we would have an even smaller pool.  also players benefit from exposure in other leagues - Take Laidlaw for one.  

I don't think Scotland have any issues over this - our best players by and large play for the two scottish teams - its just that they do not get the media attention.  One international this year 14 of the 15 starters were from Glasgow IIRC.  also we have players wgo are not Scotland qualified who would light up any team - Matowalo for example or DTH van der Merwe

Matowalo also clearly shows the difference in attitude.  he was released by Glasgow to play in a fiji game outside of the international window unlike many of his compatriots who play in England and France many of who sat on the bench or even did not make the  matchday squad for their clubs but still were not released - and also he was allowed to play in the melrose sevens rather than for Glasgow.  This shows the attitude of the SRU towards the wider game.  This for me is a key thing - looking after the wider game

So actually I refute this argument its just bogus.

I can't see how the fact that 9 of the Scottish squad play outside of the Pro12 can be bogus.  It is a fact.

But the inference this is bad for the pro 12 is the bogus bit.  Plus its essential for Scottish rugby.

If Wales having players playing outside of the Pro12 is bad for the Pro12, as the initial argument was, then why is it not bad that the Scottish or the Italians do it?

I disagree with that analysis as well. What we need is quality players and entertaining games. However I do not really know enough about welsh rugby to comment on the detail on that - but in the case of the scottish teams the arguement that our best players do not play in scotland thus this is bad for the pro 12 does not hold water in that its not that many of our team play outside scotland and our non scots players are crowd pleasers - see matowalo and DTH for two examples

LordDowlais wrote:

TJ wrote:But the inference this is bad for the pro 12 is the bogus bit. Plus its essential for Scottish rugby.

It is not bogus TJ, and please do not take this as an attack, because the Scottish Union are only looking after themselves there is nothing wrong with this, but by not having the best Scottish/Welsh/Irish/Italian players on show in our league is bad for it. Scotland in my opinion need to sort themselves out, two pro teams for a top tear nation is not on, you need at least three, perhaps even four pro teams.

1) there is nowhere for more scots pro teams to play
2) we do not have sufficient quality players for 2 more pro teams
3) there is no financial room to subsidise two more teams so they would be of low quality unable to pay for top talent
4) the vast majority of the top scottish players play in Scotland.

Long term I would like a pro 2 second division - perhaps as suggested above on a regional conference basis but this is simply not possible now

Griff wrote: Why 18k?  

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=kingspan+stadium+capacity

TJ wrote:see matowalo and DTH for two examples

TJ, how many fair weather Fijian fans or Canadian fans are there in Scotland ? If you had people who go to the 6N and sell out Murrayfield, which we all know they do, would you not think that if the players playing for Scotland were getting these people to the stadium for their country, do you not think they could get them to go to the clubs as well ?

I do think its a valid point. Part of the 'you get your house in order Wales/regions' argument was that we need to bring our players home to improve the league. The argument was that the Welsh are weakening the product from a marketing point of view beacuse North, JD2, Roberts et al. are absent while only Sexton was absent from Ireland. That logic should extend to Scotland too. The league certainly would be better with the scottish stars back. Is it 9 players? That's pretty much a third of a squad.

Griff wrote: We've hosted a Rugby World Cup final, Rugby League finals, FA Cup Finals, Heineken Cup finals, but the Pro12 final might be a step too far...

Wales isn't good enough for the Pro12.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Griff wrote: Why 18k?  

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=kingspan+stadium+capacity

There are only two stadiums outside Ireland used in the Pro12 with a higher capacity than 18000, and guess what ? They do not meet the other criteria's either, so my guess is, the finals will always be in Ireland.

Its winning and playing against the best that makes for bums on seats. nationality is a very low driver of the bums on seats. matolwalo and DTH are both great crowd favourites and we love to see them play. Replacing them with laidlaw and a n other scots winger would not increase the gates. Who do you think would bring in more fans than these two entertaining players?

Glasgow are now selling out their ground. Edinburgh have low crowd numbers and I think this could be vastly improved by much cheaper tickerts. remember we had over 40 000 for the big euro cup games a few years ago.

I really do not believe bring say laidlaw back or big Jim would change anything. what makes for good support is winning and playing aganst the best

A good number of years ago I went to see Raith Rovers play Bayern Munich in the soccer euro cup. A great occasion and a huge crown ( for RR) in easter road. Like most of the folk there I guess i went to see Bayern and Klinsman play. The only chance I will ever get of doing so.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Griff wrote: Why 18k?  

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=kingspan+stadium+capacity

There are only two stadiums outside Ireland used in the Pro12 with a higher capacity than 18000, and guess what ? They do not meet the other criteria's either, so my guess is, the finals will always be in Ireland.

Errmmmmm- murrayfeild? 67 000 capacity. No shortage of top hotels, great facilities. MUrrayfeid would meet all criteria easily.

Griff wrote:I do think its a valid point. Part of the 'you get your house in order Wales/regions' argument was that we need to bring our players home to improve the league. The argument was that the Welsh are weakening the product from a marketing point of view beacuse North, JD2, Roberts et al. are absent while only Sexton was absent from Ireland. That logic should extend to Scotland too. The league certainly would be better with the scottish stars back. Is it 9 players? That's pretty much a third of a squad.

do you really think laidlaw over matowalo would really make a differnce?

Griff wrote:I do think its a valid point. Part of the 'you get your house in order Wales/regions' argument was that we need to bring our players home to improve the league. The argument was that the Welsh are weakening the product from a marketing point of view beacuse North, JD2, Roberts et al. are absent while only Sexton was absent from Ireland. That logic should extend to Scotland too. The league certainly would be better with the scottish stars back. Is it 9 players? That's pretty much a third of a squad.

That is the point I was trying to raise, and it was being done to a point a bit tongue in cheek too. As the Welsh get slammed for not having their top players in the league, well neither do the Italians or Scottish. Also the Welsh get slammed for weakening the bargaining position of the league with sponsor for the RRW/WRU spat, yet the Italians done get any stick, even though Treviso actually handed in their notice!

Even taking it the other way around, the Irish get stick for resisting change and trying to stop the new RCC qualification via the league, yet the Scottish were also not in favour of it, yet they don't get mud slung at them for it.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Griff wrote: Why 18k?  

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=kingspan+stadium+capacity

There are only two stadiums outside Ireland used in the Pro12 with a higher capacity than 18000, and guess what ? They do not meet the other criteria's either, so my guess is, the finals will always be in Ireland.

Yeah Murrayfield will host Ulster v Munster next year to tick the box. Then it'll be back to Ireland for the next x years.

TJ wrote:Errmmmmm- murrayfeild? 67 000 capacity. No shortage of top hotels, great facilities. MUrrayfeid would meet all criteria easily

Murrayfield is one of the stadiums I was talking about, and I can tell you, there is not a 5* hotel anywhere near the stadium, not that I know of anyway and I have been up there enough times to watch Wales, Edinburgh do have such hotels but they are not in the radius of the stadium.

I am sorry to put this to you, but Murrayfield does not meat the criteria for the Pro12 Final.

LordDowlais wrote:

TJ wrote:Errmmmmm- murrayfeild? 67 000 capacity. No shortage of top hotels, great facilities. MUrrayfeid would meet all criteria easily

Murrayfield is one of the stadiums I was talking about, and I can tell you, there is not a 5* hotel anywhere near the stadium, not that I know of anyway and I have been up there enough times to watch Wales, Edinburgh do have such hotels but they are not in the radius of the stadium.

I am sorry to put this to you, but Murrayfield does not meat the criteria for the Pro12 Final.

There's a few 5 stars in Edinburgh.

11 five star hotels in Edinburgh most within a mile or two of the stadium

TJ wrote:11 five star hotels in Edinburgh most within a mile or two of the stadium

Sorry I do appologise there are 4 within the criteria:-

http://www.lastminute.com/hotels/district/5-star-hotels-near-Murrayfield-GB


So you do fit the criteria, ok so it will be once in four times at Scotland if any team up there ever bids for it.

Glasgow bid last time - I guess because they had a chance to get to the final. I would think the SRU would bid again using murrayfeild another year - I hope so.

TJ wrote:Glasgow bid last time - I guess because they had a chance to get to the final.  I would think the SRU would bid again using murrayfeild another year - I hope so.

The reason they did not get it was because Scotstoun was too small, I think they said something about temporary seating/stands but it was deemed not big enough.

I really don't understand why the rule changed over this and without wishing to re-visit the matter wholesale, the grand final venue should not be chosen in advance, particularly as it will give automatic home advantage to a team who may contest the final.

WTF does it matter how many hotels are available in the immediate vicinity of the stadium? These are large cities and there are a variety of accommodation options for both Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Why can Glasgow successfully host a Commonwealth Games with (were they to have reached the final last year) Hampden a perfectly acceptable venue for the IRB last year for a Pro 12 final, but suddenly not this year? A dozen rats to be smelled. The whole foul jamboree completely mishandled.

I have been hunting high an low through the WWW, but for some reason the criteria for hosting the Pro12 final is not to be found, all I can find is rules that the criteria must be met in order to host it.

Perhaps there is somebody on here who is better at this sort of thing and can find it. Also, please do not quote me on this, but when this whole debacle was decided, I am sure it was said that national stadiums were not allowed to be used as they were too big and would not be filled.

The competition rules on the official pro12 website haven't even been updated for a year

http://www.pro12rugby.com/statzone/competition_rules.php#bYiTrhbfj7biejUv.97

The whole stadia thing I find really frustrating - Murrayfeild with less than 30 000 in it is dead - thus there is a point about a half full stadium being not good. What edinburgh really need to do is build a "little murrayfeild" on the back pitches - put a ten thousand seat stand in permanently, use the main changing rooms and facilities and put 10 000 temp seats on for big games.

TJ wrote:10 000 temp seats on for big games.

temp seats do not cut the mustard for the criteria though, thats why Glasgow did not get the final.

"5.3. A maximum of two non-European players are permitted in a Team's match squad.
Read more at http://www.pro12rugby.com/statzone/competition_rules.php#auUgAoVPllTpFmSb.99"

That's obviously the most abused rule there is then. I can think of a fair few sides who have fielded more than two non-Europeans in a match day squad.

LordDowlais wrote:

TJ wrote:10 000 temp seats on for big games.

temp seats do not cut the mustard for the criteria though, thats why Glasgow did not get the final.

Glasgow's bid was Rugby Park though. I'm not sure how many 5 star hotels there are in Kilmarnock or whether the ones in Glasgow would have sufficed.

What an utter mess.

It's no wonder the official eligibility laws on hosting the final still haven't been made public. They are probably still making them up.

Chunky Norwich wrote:The competition rules on the official pro12 website haven't even been updated for a year

http://www.pro12rugby.com/statzone/competition_rules.php#bYiTrhbfj7biejUv.97

Yeh, thats the best one I could find, I like the rule where they say provided that the venue meets certain commercial criteria,what the feck is that supposed to be ? What is this certain criteria ? It could change to suit anybody.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:"5.3. A maximum of two non-European players are permitted in a Team's match squad.
Read more at http://www.pro12rugby.com/statzone/competition_rules.php#auUgAoVPllTpFmSb.99"

That's obviously the most abused rule there is then.  I can think of a fair few sides who have fielded more than two non-Europeans in a match day squad.

Is non-European extended to kolpak players?

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/easterby-calls-on-irfu-to-review-player-management-rules-31146857.html

Haven't managed to wade through all 17 pages of this shyte. But here is one that will get some of you excited.

Ruaidhri O'Connor wrote:
It is understood that the provincial coaches can only play their centrally contracted players in a maximum of eight regular-season league games in each campaign,

Irish internationals are only allowed to play in 36% of league matches?

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/easterby-calls-on-irfu-to-review-player-management-rules-31146857.html

Haven't managed to wade through all 17 pages of this shyte. But here is one that will get some of you excited.

Ruaidhri O'Connor wrote:
It is understood that the provincial coaches can only play their centrally contracted players in a maximum of eight regular-season league games in each campaign,

Oh well then,that will be just the Irish derbies then, so much for the IRFU not doing anything to damage our league.

There are 15 btw, not including Robbie Henshaw. (who there is some dispute about) 3 Ulster, 5 Munster and 7 Leinster (Inc Jonny Sexton who becomes CC as soon as he plays his last Metro game)

I knew who would be the first 2 to swoop on that info.

Just another fact for the Joke league file.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Just another fact for the Joke league file.

No charge. Have that one on me.

Not even an ounce of admission / shame.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Not even an ounce of admission / shame.

Why would anyone be ashamed? Nudder nail in the coffin of the joke league. I thought you'd be pleased.

Ok - lets get this back on track a bit. I do not agree with some posters on here that there is much fundamentally wrong with the pro 12 but anything can be improved. I only really know in any detail the scots situation

For the scots i dont think playing non scots players makes a huge differnence. Scots nationalism is based on civic identity not ethnic - so guys like DTH who have made their home and career in scotland are not seen as less of a crowd draw than an ethnic scot would be. He is one of " the people of scotland" In wales attitudes to this appear to be different from what posters say.

Better marketing of the pro 12 would help greatly i think. a few years back Edinburgh buses had advertising on them for the home games - just to remind folk the game is on and who we were playing. this no longer happens. there is a very big potential crowd for Edinburgh - 40 000 for the cup run a few years ago but its a fickle and soft support not diehard fans. Edinburgh have loads of space for more fans - so drop ticket prices, go back to the promos like we had a few years ago - people working for voluntry bodies could apply for free tickets - that sort of thing. Kids go free, By one get one free - that sort of thing. better to have 10 000 paying an average of a tenner than 4000 paying £20. Get people used to coming and turn kids into fans! Glasgow of course have a different issue with sell outs most of the time

I quite liked the idea of a conference based system as suggested but hat has issues as well

Fore me its to turn the pro 12 into a 20 - 24 team two division league with promotion and relegation. Might need to protect the italians tho so they don't both end up at the bottom all the time. this creates room for 8 welsh teams allowing them to go back to their old identities which I guess would help the situation in Wales no end. It creates room for a couple more scots teams and a couple from other european countries - Romania and Georgia perhaps. or even spain playing as a national side

I don't know if Ireland would want a couple more teams.

I don't think the pro 12 needs radical change - just progression and tinkering - but we need to find some way to =give the welsh something a bit more to their likeing ( but not guaranteeing them the top 4 places )

I also believe we need games live on free to view telly more. We need to create more of a buzz around it,l the product is basically good with a lot of good entertaining games

In these days of artificial pitches as well wear and tear on the pitches is not the issue it was. could we play womens / youth / seconds matches before the main events?

Thoughts?

Don Alfonso wrote:Coincidentally,  there's 400 tickets left for the final. Of 18,000. Despite the fact that until very recently,  people justifiably thought Ulster would fall out of the top four.

Those sales are precisely why the Ulster bid won.

I cannot believe I did not pick up on this yesterday,so what you are saying is, that there are only 400 tickets left ? Well I hope Ulster get to the final then, because if anybody else get there none of their fans will be able to go and support their team. Unless they keep those 400 tickets spare so that Glasgow and Ospreys can have 200 tickets each. On what planet do they not hold tickets back for the fans of other clubs that could get to the final ? What a joke this is.

LD - I'm pretty sure there are thousands of tickets being held back to sell to fans once the teams are confirmed so those won't be taken into account there. Most of the folk who sit near me at Scotstoun have already bought tickets on general sale so I assume that will be the case with fans of other clubs.

But if Don Alfonso is right, there are only 400 tickets left out of the 18,000. So how can there be thousands held back ? Is this just a private party ?

could 400 left on genral sales with a load held back to go to the clubs of the finalists?

Guys, listen to what Don Alfonso is saying. OUT OF THE 18,000 TICKETS ON SALE ONLY 400 ARE LEFT. Now to me this is one of two things, either he is telling the truth, and there are 400 tickets left for people who's teams could get to the final or he is not telling the truth and there are plenty of tickets being held back. But if he is telling the truth, then this shows more than anything how this is a private party for the Irish.

TJ wrote:
Fore me its to turn the pro 12 into a 20 - 24 team two division league with promotion and relegation. Might need to protect the italians tho so they don't both end up at the bottom all the time.  this creates room for 8 welsh teams allowing them to go back to their old identities which I guess would help the situation in Wales no end.  It creates room for a couple more scots teams and a couple from other european countries - Romania and Georgia perhaps. or even spain playing as a national side

jaysus. I thought Chuckie was a dreamer with his B&I league.

LordDowlais wrote:Guys, listen to what Don Alfonso is saying. OUT OF THE 18,000 TICKETS ON SALE ONLY 400 ARE LEFT. Now to me this is one of two things, either he is telling the truth, and there are 400 tickets left for people who's teams could get to the final or he is not telling the truth and there are plenty of tickets being held back. But if he is telling the truth, then this shows more than anything how this is a private party for the Irish.

Oh FFS someone put this guy out of his misery before he repeats himself another 400 times.

There are a few thousand reserved for fans of the 2 finalists. Stick the offended gun back in it's holster for another while.

Yes there were (I think) 14,000 on the general sale that started in Feb and the remainder sold by the finalists once they know who is playing. So there are 400 left of the 14,000.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/19947.php

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

TJ wrote:
Fore me its to turn the pro 12 into a 20 - 24 team two division league with promotion and relegation. Might need to protect the italians tho so they don't both end up at the bottom all the time.  this creates room for 8 welsh teams allowing them to go back to their old identities which I guess would help the situation in Wales no end.  It creates room for a couple more scots teams and a couple from other european countries - Romania and Georgia perhaps. or even spain playing as a national side

jaysus. I thought Chuckie was a dreamer with his B&I league.

MOney would be an issues right now with costs of this being greater than the additional revenue but is it an unrealistic long term aim? Teir two would be semi pro I guess. the big advantage to it is to give the welsh the opportunity to have 8 teams with the old identities

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Guys, listen to what Don Alfonso is saying. OUT OF THE 18,000 TICKETS ON SALE ONLY 400 ARE LEFT. Now to me this is one of two things, either he is telling the truth, and there are 400 tickets left for people who's teams could get to the final or he is not telling the truth and there are plenty of tickets being held back. But if he is telling the truth, then this shows more than anything how this is a private party for the Irish.

Oh FFS someone put this guy out of his misery before he repeats himself another 400 times.

There are a few thousand reserved for fans of the 2 finalists. Stick the offended gun back in it's holster for another while.

Best post all week....

TJ wrote: is it an unrealistic long term aim?

Yes

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

TJ wrote: is it an unrealistic long term aim?

Yes

Why?
OK - what would you see as the way forward / where to aim? Its just my suggestion for discussion.