Pro12 value - the facts

First topic message reminder :

Broadcasting revenue. As revealed today by the CEO of PRW:

The French Top14 = £50m
Aviva Prem = £40m
Pro12 = £11.5m.

That is quite simply unsustainable if you want to be a professional rugby team in domestic Northern Hem rugby. Somethign has to change for the celtic teams, and quickly.

LD,

I think the majority of fans are still old school Newport RFC fans who have accepted/adopted to Regionalism.

Folks - this is all I was responding to:

https://twitter.com/UlsterRugby/status/588355051057500160

I suppose there could easily be tickets being held back for supporters - I just took it at face value. I hold my hands up.

Bit less impressive if so, but not to be sniffed at.

Aviva Premiership Final 2015 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2014 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2013 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2012 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2011 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2010 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2009 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2008 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2007 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2006 - Twickenham

I guess that's the lovely variety of destination and opportunities you'd get with a B&I League.

SecretFly wrote:Aviva Premiership Final 2015 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2014 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2013 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2012 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2011 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2010 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2009 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2008 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2007 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2006 - Twickenham

I guess that's the lovely variety of destination and opportunities you'd get with a B&I League.

What makes you say it would always be held at Twickenham?

nathan wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Aviva Premiership Final 2015 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2014 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2013 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2012 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2011 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2010 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2009 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2008 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2007 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2006 - Twickenham

I guess that's the lovely variety of destination and opportunities you'd get with a B&I League.

What makes you say it would always be held at Twickenham?

Did I? I suggested it was a reasonable possibility considering none of the AP sides seem to groan about the choice.

I jotted down the facts as they pertain to one of the other Leagues - the one Chunky would like to join up with.  Moans abound about venue for Pro12 finals, I plotted out the variety of venues in AP.

Now you tell me, why is the destination of the AP final not jiggled around to give nice visiting numbers to other rugby strongholds for a nice high profile BIG game?

Here's a promotional video for the Final in Belfast. Quite well done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W67ofs1So1s

SecretFly wrote:

nathan wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Aviva Premiership Final 2015 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2014 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2013 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2012 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2011 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2010 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2009 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2008 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2007 - Twickenham
Aviva Premiership Final 2006 - Twickenham

I guess that's the lovely variety of destination and opportunities you'd get with a B&I League.

What makes you say it would always be held at Twickenham?

Did I?  I suggested it was a reasonable possibility considering none of the AP sides seem to groan about the choice.

I jotted down the facts as they pertain to one of the other Leagues - the one Chunky would like to join up with.  Moans abound about venue for Pro12 finals, I plotted out the variety of venues in AP.

Now you tell me, why is the destination of the AP final not jiggled around to give nice visiting numbers to other rugby strongholds for a nice high profile BIG game?

PRL signed a contract on very favourable terms to use Twickenham. Only other stadium available that coudl drive the same income are Wembley and Old Trafford. no surprise that PRL had a deal lined up with Man U to use Old Trafford when the negotiated current contract.


That it is always at Twickenham allow people to plan easily. Every year we play a spot the other 11 clubs shirt game as the final tends to be about 50% full of neutrals (or in other words fans of teams not good enough ) wearing their own teams colours.

Going back to the Pro12 final eligibility rules : There is not one Aviva Premiership team that has a home ground that would be eligible under the current Pro12 rules.

I'd imagine the next 6 nations deal could have a big effect on the Pro 12. I don't know what the current TV deal is worth but it does generate the most money for the smaller unions at least. The new deal could double the current one. That would mean a massive increase of funds to the 4 Pro 12 unions.

profitius wrote:I'd imagine the next 6 nations deal could have a big effect on the Pro 12. I don't know what the current TV deal is worth but it does generate the most money for the smaller unions at least.  The new deal could double the current one. That would mean a massive increase of funds to the 4 Pro 12 unions.

The sensible thing would be to move to sky and/or BT Sport. That's where the money is.

Chunky Norwich wrote:The sensible thing would be to move to sky and/or BT Sport. That's where the money is.

The Welsh home games are protected, and by law they are to be aired on free to view TV, so I do not know how that would work.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:The sensible thing would be to move to sky and/or BT Sport. That's where the money is.

The Welsh home games are protected, and by law they are to be aired on free to view TV, so I do not know how that would work.

By who? Have you got a link?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:The sensible thing would be to move to sky and/or BT Sport. That's where the money is.

The Welsh home games are protected, and by law they are to be aired on free to view TV, so I do not know how that would work.

By who? Have you got a link?

Sorry, it looks like they have been moved to catagory B now, but I could have sworn the Welsh assembly passed a right in parlement that ensured that all the home games for Wales in the 6N were to be on free to air, and that S4C/BBC Wales had the right to show them.

I will keep looking.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sorry, it looks like they have been moved to catagory B now, but I could have sworn the Welsh assembly passed a right in parlement that ensured that all the home games for Wales in the 6N were to be on free to air, and that S4C/BBC Wales had the right to show them.  

I will keep looking.

I don't think they could just announce that they want to make them Category A. That's Ofcom's job.

Ah found it:-

www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=welsh+six+nations+rugby+games+protection+television+welsh+assembly

Click on Listed sporting events - Parliament

Then go down to point 3.1 and the last bullet point Wales matches in the Six Nations Rugby Championship (in Wales only).

It was reviewed in 2009.

LordDowlais wrote:Ah found it:-

www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=welsh+six+nations+rugby+games+protection+television+welsh+assembly

Click on Listed sporting events - Parliament

Then go down to point 3.1 and the last bullet point Wales matches in the Six Nations Rugby Championship (in Wales only).

It was reviewed in 2009.

Interesting. I guess that would cover s4c if it went to sky?

Chunky Norwich wrote:Interesting. I guess that would cover s4c if it went to sky?

If you notice, S4C is the only channel that advertises Welsh programmes on BBC Wales, if you have ever watch the rugby on S4C they will tell you what games are on BBC the following week during the advert breaks, I am sure S4C is part of BBC Wales in some sort of way.

LordDowlais wrote:Ah found it:-

www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=welsh+six+nations+rugby+games+protection+television+welsh+assembly

Click on Listed sporting events - Parliament

Then go down to point 3.1 and the last bullet point Wales matches in the Six Nations Rugby Championship (in Wales only).

It was reviewed in 2009.

Hang on, that's just a recommendation isn't it? Isn't 2.1 the actual list?

Toyally selfish here I know but as I either go to the matches in the 6 Nations or at worst the pub then it wouldn't overly bother me but isn't it being reviewed at the moment and aren't certain people pushing for the 6 Nations to be one of the protected sports across the board?

Chunky Norwich wrote:Hang on, that's just a recommendation isn't it? Isn't 2.1 the actual list?

2.1 was the original list, 3.1 was the new reviewed list from 2009 onwards.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Toyally selfish here I know but as I either go to the matches in the 6 Nations or at worst the pub then it wouldn't overly bother me but isn't it being reviewed at the moment and aren't certain people pushing for the 6 Nations to be one of the protected sports across the board?

Yes, you are correct, they want the 6N as a competition put into the crown jewels category. At the moment, only the Wales home games are protected, for the Welsh public. In fact it is up for review THIS year.

On free to air you get a much better audience and you bring in not committed fans. Pay to view would be a disaster long term

Chunky read this bit:-

3.1 Report published (November 2009)
The Panel’s report was published in November 200911 and said that “in current circumstances it supported the principle of protecting some major sporting events for the widest possible television audience, if necessary by means of listing them.”12 The Panel concluded that guaranteeing only the highlights of a major event could no longer be seen as a sufficient substitute for live coverage13 and that there should be a single list of live events protected for free-to-air television.

 FIFA World Cup Finals Tournament
 UEFA European Football Championship Finals Tournament
 The Grand National
 The FA Cup Final (in England, Wales and Northern Ireland only)
 The Scottish FA Cup (in Scotland only)
 Home and away qualification matches in the FIFA World Cup and UEFA European Football Championships (listed in the Home Nation to which they relate)
 The All-England Wimbledon Lawn Tennis Championship (listed in its entirety)
 The Open Golf Championship
 Cricket’s Home Ashes Test matches
 The Rugby Union World Cup Tournament
 Wales matches in the Six Nations Rugby Championship (in Wales only)17

The Panel acknowledged that this represented a “significant de-listing of events currently in Groups A and B”.18

Notice the bit in BOLD.

Griff wrote:

Notch wrote:

Weegie Wizard wrote:There are only 2,000 tickets per team being held back. Glasgow will definitely sell them out when we win our semi and I would be amazed if Munster couldn't. Have you all gone mad?

You only have a week, it will be interesting to see... at least its not on a Friday Night

I think Glasgow will have more interest that Ospreys or Munster. Munster fans are used to European knock-out games, so this isn't much of a big deal to them. Ospreys fans are too busy complaining about the whole system to actually get off their couch and go to a rugby game featuring their team, and that won't change for the final

Which Ospreys fans? On here? I don't think there are any. Wayne? I think he likes the Pro12.

Thanks for the endorsment Griff, you are entirely correct, I said it at the time that PRW or RRW used the join up with the PRL to get what we wanted from the WRU, it is NOT the policy or ever was for the Regions to join the Aviva, I'll have a bit of banter with our Irish cousins and actually that is quite true with my family connections, my main gripe with the League is the standard of Refereeing, (not just the Irish), we have to make this League work for ALL participants.
Just to add I've had very little input to this debate, yet read every single point made.

wayne wrote:
Just to add I've had very little input to this debate, yet read every single point made.  

That is most unusual - most contributors operate on the opposite principle - input a lot of words into their keyboard and read very little.   It allows a err...debate ....like this to run for 17 odd pages and still be no nearer a conclusion about the original point made which is that the Pro12 needs to make more revenue from its TV deals to keep some sort of parity with the English and French leagues or it faces being redundant/unable to compete.  The OP declined to offer any solutions as to how this might be achieved.

Still, this was much the same approach as cited by the Pro12 club CEOs who made public comments to pretty much the same effect.

One of the Pro12 club CEOs said that the Scots needed to pull up their socks and be more competitive, and that the Welsh need to bring back their best players.   Oh and that recent internal wrangling by Pro12 clubs hadn't helped in trying to promote the Pro12 - presumably to business/TV broadcasters.

A B&I league - whist an attractive proposition in theory - was not really achieveable in the short term given the existing deals and commitments that the AP had made - nor may it be achievable in the long term give self-interest.  

Right now, the focus for the Pro12 and its constituent clubs was to improve the Pro12 brand and get better TV deals into the league.    

So, improving the Pro12 brand could mean that in the future it is a league that is perceived to:

• Have competitive exciting games throughout the season
  
• Feature the top players from the four unions involved as often as is practicable allowing for Player Mgmt, International Windows, competing in other European competitions.
  
• Draws good size crowds to home and away games for each of the Pro12 clubs - should there be a minimum capacity target set for each club to encourage more innovative and diverse marketing programmes such as occurs around traditional derbies?  
  
• Have sufficient chimney-pots to attract TV broadcasters and their attendant advertisers?
  
• Have better and more lucrative business linkages (outside of owners) to get involved in individual club support (a la Munster/Leinster/Ulster)
  
• Have sufficient marketing clout and interest to negotiate bigger and better sponsorship deals for the league
  
• Promote and fund a referee improvement and development programme that involves refs from non-Pro12 unions
  
• Have sufficient interest and be of high enough quality that foreign players from other unions see it as a viable league in which to play and be paid accordingly
  
• Have an open and transparent (without ceding necessary commercial confidentiality) league management structure so that supporters, teams, players can see how it operates and why it does.
  
• Have an active Pro12 Supporters Cub that has an input into the management, operation and development of the league and is representative of supporters from each of the four unions
  
• Set out a League Development Strategy that gets input from relevant stakeholders, including supporters, business, local providers, as well as relevant rugby organisations and gives a clear path as to how particular goals are to be achieved by the four unions, participant clubs, and supporters - commercial and fans.
  
• Have a centrally funded Pro12 game promotion programme to support local club initiatives
  

Pot Hale wrote:

So, improving the Pro12 brand could mean that in the future it is a league that is perceived to:

• Have competitive exciting games throughout the season
  
• Feature the top players from the four unions involved as often as is practicable allowing for Player Mgmt, International Windows, competing in other European competitions.
  
• Draws good size crowds to home and away games for each of the Pro12 clubs - should there be a minimum capacity target set for each club to encourage more innovative and diverse marketing programmes such as occurs around traditional derbies?  
  
• Have sufficient chimney-pots to attract TV broadcasters and their attendant advertisers?
  
• Have better and more lucrative business linkages (outside of owners) to get involved in individual club support (a la Munster/Leinster/Ulster)
  
• Have sufficient marketing clout and interest to negotiate bigger and better sponsorship deals for the league
  
• Promote and fund a referee improvement and development programme that involves refs from non-Pro12 unions
  
• Have sufficient interest and be of high enough quality that foreign players from other unions see it as a viable league in which to play and be paid accordingly
  
• Have an open and transparent (without ceding necessary commercial confidentiality) league management structure so that supporters, teams, players can see how it operates and why it does.
  
• Have an active Pro12 Supporters Cub that has an input into the management, operation and development of the league and is representative of supporters from each of the four unions
  
• Set out a League Development Strategy that gets input from relevant stakeholders, including supporters, business, local providers, as well as relevant rugby organisations and gives a clear path as to how particular goals are to be achieved by the four unions, participant clubs, and supporters - commercial and fans.
  
• Have a centrally funded Pro12 game promotion programme to support local club initiatives
  

Top14?

Anyway...when all is said and done.  The very Basic starting point - every new dawn needs one - the very Basic starting point is not demanding more money from sponsors for Thin air.  The basic starting point is teams simply playing better.

Better games is the starting point.  No way around that.  
You can't stubbornly wait for more money so that you can buy in or back the players that will play better games - that's playing backwards and sponsors will laugh.
You can't rely on bigger fireworks displays, or fancy computer graphics, yet more 'informative' bloody pundits  or scantily clad women handing out the yellow cards - sponsors would love the shallow schmaltz but we'd all be embarrassed by it. ----- Wouldn't we????
You can't talk about any of the stuff that gets talked about here without thinking of a beginning for it all.  Forget the middle or the end - the beginning is more teams playing better rugby more frequently.

What is better rugby?  'Anybody's guess' might be the accurate answer

But what it doesn't require is 'Best' players always on duty.  It doesn't require waiting with a frown on faces for more money to show up before you try it.  It requires good coaches coaching good rugby that players go out and try to honestly engage in rather than phoning in their performances because of A, B or C background reasons.

The beginning is in the hands of coaches and players... all players, the entire squad, not just the fancy-Dan big boys.  If you don't have the games you don't have a product to sell.

So maybe when we talk referees and their pedigree we might consider the general quality of coaching through Pro12.  Coaching has plenty of room for improvement too - real, energetic, innovative and passionate coaches - not just bib holders getting their legs tanned.

SecretFly wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

So, improving the Pro12 brand could mean that in the future it is a league that is perceived to:

• Have competitive exciting games throughout the season
  
• Feature the top players from the four unions involved as often as is practicable allowing for Player Mgmt, International Windows, competing in other European competitions.
  
• Draws good size crowds to home and away games for each of the Pro12 clubs - should there be a minimum capacity target set for each club to encourage more innovative and diverse marketing programmes such as occurs around traditional derbies?  
  
• Have sufficient chimney-pots to attract TV broadcasters and their attendant advertisers?
  
• Have better and more lucrative business linkages (outside of owners) to get involved in individual club support (a la Munster/Leinster/Ulster)
  
• Have sufficient marketing clout and interest to negotiate bigger and better sponsorship deals for the league
  
• Promote and fund a referee improvement and development programme that involves refs from non-Pro12 unions
  
• Have sufficient interest and be of high enough quality that foreign players from other unions see it as a viable league in which to play and be paid accordingly
  
• Have an open and transparent (without ceding necessary commercial confidentiality) league management structure so that supporters, teams, players can see how it operates and why it does.
  
• Have an active Pro12 Supporters Cub that has an input into the management, operation and development of the league and is representative of supporters from each of the four unions
  
• Set out a League Development Strategy that gets input from relevant stakeholders, including supporters, business, local providers, as well as relevant rugby organisations and gives a clear path as to how particular goals are to be achieved by the four unions, participant clubs, and supporters - commercial and fans.
  
• Have a centrally funded Pro12 game promotion programme to support local club initiatives
  

Top14?

Expliquez, svp

Notch wrote:

Weegie Wizard wrote:There are only 2,000 tickets per team being held back. Glasgow will definitely sell them out when we win our semi and I would be amazed if Munster couldn't. Have you all gone mad?

You only have a week, it will be interesting to see... at least its not on a Friday Night

I think Glasgow will have more interest that Ospreys or Munster. Munster fans are used to European knock-out games, so this isn't much of a big deal to them. Ospreys fans are too busy complaining about the whole system to actually get off their couch and go to a rugby game featuring their team, and that won't change for the final

If..if we get a home semi, the crowd will be about 10-12k I guess. All paying as a season ticket doesn't cover this game. A final? Only a hardcore will travel over to Belfast. I can't imagine the Ospreys selling out our allocation what with the travel and accom costs.

As for the pro12. My gripe are the k.o times. 1830 and 1630 on a Sat & Sun are not fan friendly. Work with the TV companies and get them playing earlier..

Pot Hale wrote:

Expliquez, svp

Oh it was a top list Pot - but it sounded damned expensive in the realisation  - certainly before the billion dollar 'Sly' contract that we'll be getting in three year's time comes in anyway.  
And all the Pro12 folks roundabout in Regions, and Provinces, and Scottish and Italian clubs, want the money for themselves, not to throw at bloody perfect administration.  



'More Money For Me!' is the clarion call.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Griff wrote:They've said on numberous occasions thay they've got no interest in supporting Newport so would walk away if we went back to it.

Even though their official name is Newport?

http://www.newportgwentdragons.com/

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Griff wrote:They've said on numberous occasions thay they've got no interest in supporting Newport so would walk away if we went back to it.

Even though their official name is Newport?

http://www.newportgwentdragons.com/

I can only report as I find David. Not sure why it's funny?! Fans from the wider region getting behind the regional concept. We should be applauding it, not mocking it.

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Griff wrote:They've said on numberous occasions thay they've got no interest in supporting Newport so would walk away if we went back to it.

Even though their official name is Newport?

http://www.newportgwentdragons.com/

I can only report as I find David. Not sure why it's funny?! Fans from the wider region getting behind the regional concept. We should be applauding it, not mocking it.

Wasn't mocking the "regional concept", whatever that is.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Griff wrote:They've said on numberous occasions thay they've got no interest in supporting Newport so would walk away if we went back to it.

Even though their official name is Newport?

http://www.newportgwentdragons.com/

I can only report as I find David. Not sure why it's funny?! Fans from the wider region getting behind the regional concept. We should be applauding it, not mocking it.

Wasn't mocking the "regional concept", whatever that is.

It's the thing those that weren't allowed to stand alone are doing.

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Griff wrote:They've said on numberous occasions thay they've got no interest in supporting Newport so would walk away if we went back to it.

Even though their official name is Newport?

http://www.newportgwentdragons.com/

I can only report as I find David. Not sure why it's funny?! Fans from the wider region getting behind the regional concept. We should be applauding it, not mocking it.

Wasn't mocking the "regional concept", whatever that is.

It's the thing those that weren't allowed to stand alone are doing.

I see.

SecretFly wrote:The IRFU members like gold plated toilet flushing handles.  They have rights.  The 5 stars are for them and their envelopes.  A lot of smooching and glad-handing to be done at a Final Trade Fair.  The following year's winner has got to be chosen with a few nods, winks and champagne corks ....

We've got the same here with our Union the FFR: allways nice hotel and restaurant payed by the players' licenses.
It wouldn't be so dramatic if they weren't totally incompetent.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Griff wrote:They've said on numberous occasions thay they've got no interest in supporting Newport so would walk away if we went back to it.

Even though their official name is Newport?

http://www.newportgwentdragons.com/

I can only report as I find David. Not sure why it's funny?! Fans from the wider region getting behind the regional concept. We should be applauding it, not mocking it.

Wasn't mocking the "regional concept", whatever that is.

It's the thing those that weren't allowed to stand alone are doing.

I see.

Its the thing that the top three of wales four Pro12 sides are. Conincidence

Well the Pro12 are not getting many sponsors, but the Jocks are:-

http://www.scottishrugby.org/news/15/04/14/bt-completes-scottish-rugby-portfolio-scotlands-front-shirt-sponsor

BT are paying for the SRU's vote to hand the running of Euroepan rugby to the clubs.

The Welsh clubs could learn a thing or two from the Scots

Oh we're back to Sponsorship, money, trinkets, bribes, contracts, naming rights, wage packets and ticket prices?

Sin é wrote:BT are paying for the SRU's vote to hand the running of Euroepan rugby to the clubs.

The Welsh clubs could learn a thing or two from the Scots

You mean the four sides that are already sponsored by BTSport, including the one that plays at the BTSport Cardiff Arms Park?

It's BTcoming a BTWorld.  

More diversity and comBTition is what folks usually demand when they talk Growth and Future.  Rugby seems to BT going in the opposite way.  Cartels and Monopolies is the new BTBuyOut way.

And folks mumble about Guinness Pro12 sponsorship giving undue power and influence to the Irish in Pro12.

Oh it's a strange old BTworld of strike and counter-strike.

BT are sponsoring everying that moves rugby wise in Scotland (7s, underage, main shirt sponsor or international team, two club teams, Scottish leagues etc), and what doesn't move - Murrayfield.

BT sponsorship in Wales is small stuff in comparsion.

All very suspicious considering BT declined to tender for the Pro12

oh, and the reason they probably didn't tender for the Pro12 is because BT wanted to break up the Celtic Union Alliance so that they could get their hands on European Rugby.

Sin é wrote:BT are sponsoring everying that moves rugby wise in Scotland (7s, underage, main shirt sponsor or international team, two club teams, Scottish leagues etc), and what doesn't move - Murrayfield.
BT sponsorship in Wales is small stuff in comparsion.
All very suspicious considering BT declined to tender for the Pro12
oh, and the reason they probably didn't tender for the Pro12 is because BT wanted to break up the Celtic Union Alliance so that they could get their hands on European Rugby.

It's very simple Sky have the Pro12 so it's way to advertise BT Sport on SKY without advertising it ! Rather like SKY having their branding on everything worn by Team GB cyclists even when the events are on terrestrial.

Irish Londoner wrote:

It's very simple Sky have the Pro12 so it's way to advertise BT Sport on SKY without advertising it ! Rather like SKY having their branding on everything worn by Team GB cyclists even when the events are on terrestrial.

I feel a Merger coming down the line. They're already in bed together. Next it will be underthings off.

Sin é wrote:oh, and the reason they probably didn't tender for the Pro12 is because BT wanted to break up the Celtic Union Alliance so that they could get their hands on European Rugby.

WOW, are you sure that was not down to us as well ?

Only Joking.

Right I'm off before I am thrown from the rafters.

In my opinion to attract sponsor and people your league has to change things:

1) the final has to be a big event, and for that you have to play in a big stadium. So the place should be know when the season start to be sure to sell all the tickets. Here each year it's in Stade de France (except next year in Nou Camp because of the Football Euro). It's give time to fans to organize their trip. You could alternate between Aviva Stadium, Millenium Stadium and Murrayfield.

2) try to develop the final as the "Celtic Superbowl". This is the next goal of top 14, we will have singers during half-time, a 7's tournament on the final's week-end, and more events.

3) stop people involved in the pro12 critizing your league. Fine the coach, players or president if they're doing it. It's difficult to sell the league if someone of your home say it's a crap product.

4) give free tickets to kids and maybe even women. You have to have full stadium, and to create new fans you have to target the family. There is nothing worse for tv than an empty stadium, super rugby suffer from that.

5) the english clubs will pressure the french club to have a european salary cap in the next year. Even if I don't think they will succeed, you should join them and betrayed them with a more reasonnable proposal: a financial compensation if one of your international players is taken. If 200 000 or 500 000 has to be pay by a french club for one of your player, it will make them think twice before doing it. It will have a good effect on your finance, without the french pressure you will have more money to compete with them on the players from SH.

6) other teams than Irish team have to be strong in the Champions Cup. For that I think Scotland and Wales should concentrate their best players in one of their teams. A similar team as the welsh national team+ a few of southern players should be able to win this competition. A welsh or scotish successful team would boost their rugby, like Munster or Leinster did it for the Irish.

7) integrate the idea the other celtics nations are your partner and the English and French clubs are ennemies. If in Champions cup one of your team coulp help an other one to qualify instead of a french one, do it. Even if it's mean to lose "willingly".

8) as you're all partners and you don't have relegation, be sure all of your coach will play an attacking style of rugby.

9) maybe the one of the most controversial point: drop the Italians.
Ok it's the biggest country and the one with the biggest potential, but I think they will snow in Sahara before rugby will be strong enough there. The Italians are too mad of football, unlike the French. So in my opinion it will allways be a very minor sport. And they devalue your league with their crap teams.

10) create instead 2 or 4 teams to replace them. More games means more money with more tickets sold and the TV love to have a longer competition. You will say your Union to have enough money to create them, but maybe you could let a few suggar daddies develop them with of course the freedom that goes with. Some people will think they could be dangerous for your rugby, but we have suggar daddies since the creation of our championship, and we aren't dead.

11) the Top14 in France is on Pay-TV. Give your tv right to free channel there to compete with our league. In my country France 2 lose a big part of the European Games and they're quite angry against the LNR. As rugby make good audience there, it could help you to attract bigger sponsors.

12) let your tv channel make the schedule of your championship. They know better when they would like to have the big games. It's a new change here. Until now, each teams had a first round against all the other teams before having a second round. In the next seasons a team could play against the same team twice in 2 weeks.

13) the best audience are in the final stage. So develop them like us. Here the 2 first teams are qualified to the semi final. And the 4 following teams play each other in a "wild card", the two winners will play the semi final.

These are the points I would try to change if I was your Union.

Some good points there, shuren.  Of course our main complication is that we're more than one 'Union' to begin with, so each of the four Unions have their own reasons for the League in the first place.... which is a markedly different set up to the Top14 and AP.

But still a lot of good points.... except maybe Number 5:  

Yes, the English will either begin to demand a more stringent Salary cap for Top14 (in Euro contests anyway) or they'll simply end or loosen the limits on their own imposed salary cap.  Whatever happens, they're not going to sit by as Top14 hoovers up all best SH players into the future.  They'll make a move sooner or later.

But they (PRL) already had an opportunity to bring the topic of Salary caps into the equation when discussing the New European competition last year.  They chose not to for their own ends - first weaken Pro12, then try to weaken or rise to the levels of Top14 themselves.  Joining them now in a battle against the French?  That was available to the PRL before.... I don't think we should all so easily 'follow' them now on any new crusade to curtail the French cap.  Let them try that on their own....

Plus - I don't like the idea of compensation.  Despite compensation, you still lose the players you don't want to let go in the first place.  And with our sizes and player pools (Wales, Ireland, France) that's often a luxury you can't afford.  

It can mean that you make money but still lose out in competitiveness both in the League and in Europe.  It also forces you to join 'the market' of buying up outside players and filling your ranks with proven players (though always below the levels of the Top14 and AP) rather than training up your own academy guys.  

Not good for long term growth as a side.  Your value to sponsors also goes down as a result and pretty soon all you're relying on IS that compensation money you might get for one or two of your most promising players being taken from you each year.
Pro12 sides will want to compete with AP and Top14 sides not simply become providers of players to these sides.

The way I see it, it is important to focus on priorities.

Priority 1 - improve refereeing. TJ & TMO should not be of the home union. In a multi-national league this is ridiculous and should be stopped immediately. Focused effort from Pro12 to increase the number of officials from Scotland, Italy and Wales to make this easier.

Priority 2 - Get rid of the nationality aspect of Euro qualification. Treviso do not deserve to be in the Heineken. Either we are merit based or we aren't.

Priority 3 - Increase TV/Media revenue. Much of this will follow on from the first 2 points and I understand it is easier said than done but, whilst competition with France & England is not realistic we should continue the progress we have made this season. This includes the RRW stopping moaning and the IRFU playing internationals more often. The SRU are, of course, blameless.

Priority 4 - If we are going to decide the final destination at the start of the season, do it at the start of the season so folk can plan their trips. Offer free ticket cancellations so that Leinster fans can book their tickets without worrying if they will be there. Rotate the finals between national stadiums. This may prove and issue with Italy - I don't have a solution for this at the moment.

Don't agree with hosting the final in national stadia. Ospreys v Glasgow at the MS or Murrayfield? In fact I don't agree with the change at all. Although I do understand the reason.