Pro12 Value - The Facts (continued)

First topic message reminder :

A continuation of Chunky Norwich's original thread:
https://www.606v2.com/t58514-pro12-value-the-facts

I have to say the 'blame' word seems rather overused in this argument. If someone (like Chunky) points out differences in funding, for example, or crowds, then it seems to be interpreted as blame. There's a difference between blame and reasons for poor attendances, lower league position, inability to keep our best players, etc. We're trying to find reasons here. Find them and discuss them so that we can perhaps get to a position where we are doing things the same. Surely to emulate the Irish model, as seems to be the WRU way and as suggested either directly or indirectly by some Irish posters on here, then we have to first identify the differences between the two models so that we can target the right things to improve or change?

Notch wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Look the way that the CC gets prioritised over the Pro12 is damaging for it, why can't you see this ?

I think it would be even more damaging for the game if you had players having to retire early due to burnout, or even more injuries than we already have, or players missing the Six Nations to play in the league. If you've got a magic wand that can make players play 40 games a season with no ill effects, wave it now- please!

Otherwise, time to get acquainted with reality. The IRFU has to make decisions based on succeeding in professional rugby as a whole not just the Pro12, and based on player welfare. We have a season which is unbalanced, and there are too many games in a calendar which doesn't work.

I'd love to see that problem solved, but it's really ridiculous to point fingers based on doing whats best for the players.

Well you could do it the other way around, and play your best players in the league, and put the players from the league in the CC. After all why would you prioritise a competition that is run by the same union you ripped us apart for trying to get into bed with ?

The CC is the scraps off the table that you lot are putting on a pedastal over your own bread and butter, I reckon we should stick two fingers up to that, and really showcase OUR league, with ALL OUR BEST PLAYERS, grand slam winners on show each weak, now that would sell, and TV companies and sponsors would pay a lot more for it.

Chunky...you never get this point...so I'll repeat it.  The term 'YOU' in an argument becomes rhetorical after a while.  Participants address the Topic and the issues within the topic that repeatedly crop up.

You - your side of the argument - you Welsh posters.  That's what 'You' means.  A response to the totality of the argument not just your bits...

This here topic seems to roughly cut evenly between Welsh posters and Irish posters.  Whilst not all Welsh posters or all Irish posters say the exact same thing or even totally agree with each other, they all seem to have a general consensus whereby the Irish ones defend Irish provincial rugby and the Welsh ones defend their Regions.

Now to get back to your distinct point: You say Irish teams have Twice the Money.  Therefore the inference was that they can win in both League and in Europe.

I say 'If they have more money then Why have they more money?'

You retort: ' No IF in it.'

But you didn't get around to the second part of my comment - WHY?

WHY has/had Irish rugby money to cling onto Irish top players (getting tougher every year) and allow them their downtime cottonwool snoozes?  And why had Welsh rugby not that money?

I say Pride got in the way.

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:LD, you've got a bee in your bonnet about getting everyone to agree with you on this. But what have the Irish done wrong?

I will say this ONE LAST TIME. The Irish have done NOTHING wrong, it is up to them if they want to rest their players, they have every right to look after their own needs.

BUT, when it comes to the Pro12, which is what we are talking about, and how we can get more money from sponsors and the media, the fact that nobody wants to pay as much for OUR PRODUCT, is because none of us have treated the league fairly. We have all prioritised ourselves over the league, and WE MUST ALL SHOULDER THE RESPONSIBILITY. Whether that be from in-fighting, not being good enough, bringing in sub standard foreign players, or not putting your best players on show in the league, WE ARE ALL GUILTY, but the Irish want to remain blameless.

If we've done nothing wrong then we are indeed blameless. If we've done something wrong, then sure we should be 'blamed'. If you agree we're not doing anything wrong then... whats your point exactly?

It's obviously in our interest to make the Pro12 as successful as possible, it's in our interests to help Welsh, Scottish and Italian rugby grow and I haven't seen any evidence produced that we're not making every effort to do that, within the bounds of what can realistically be expected of us.

Griff wrote:I have to say the 'blame' word seems rather overused in this argument.

Ok fair enough, I will change the word BLAME to AT FAULT.

We are all AT FAULT, for neglecting our league in pursuit of our own needs.

Notch wrote:it's in our interests to help Welsh, Scottish and Italian rugby grow.

Hilarious.

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Look the way that the CC gets prioritised over the Pro12 is damaging for it, why can't you see this ?

I think it would be even more damaging for the game if you had players having to retire early due to burnout, or even more injuries than we already have, or players missing the Six Nations to play in the league. If you've got a magic wand that can make players play 40 games a season with no ill effects, wave it now- please!

Otherwise, time to get acquainted with reality. The IRFU has to make decisions based on succeeding in professional rugby as a whole not just the Pro12, and based on player welfare. We have a season which is unbalanced, and there are too many games in a calendar which doesn't work.

I'd love to see that problem solved, but it's really ridiculous to point fingers based on doing whats best for the players.

Well you could do it the other way around, and play your best players in the league, and put the players from the league in the CC. After all why would you prioritise a competition that is run by the same union you ripped us apart for trying to get into bed with ?

The CC is the scraps off the table that you lot are putting on a pedastal over your own bread and butter, I reckon we should stick two fingers up to that, and really showcase OUR league, with ALL OUR BEST PLAYERS, grand slam winners on show each weak, now that would sell, and TV companies and sponsors would pay a lot more for it.

I think they would pay almost exactly the same amount. No-one can guarantee that they will have star players available with injuries and internationals clashing with dates etc.

Notch wrote:
I think they would pay almost exactly the same amount. No-one can guarantee that they will have star players available with injuries and internationals clashing with dates etc.

Exactly. The Pro12 will never get a fair bit more than it gets now from broadcasters. Because it's a lame duck league.

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:I have to say the 'blame' word seems rather overused in this argument.

Ok fair enough, I will change the word BLAME to AT FAULT.

We are all AT FAULT, for neglecting our league in pursuit of our own needs.

Wasn't actually aimed at you this time LD! SecretFly was suggesting we (implying all Welsh) were blaming the Irish. I think generally we're looking for reasons why we differ, not looking to apportion blame.

Notch wrote:If we've done nothing wrong then we are indeed blameless. If we've done something wrong, then sure we should be 'blamed'. If you agree we're not doing anything wrong then... whats your point exactly?

No Notch, you have done NOTHING wrong for IRISH rugby, but when it comes to the LEAGUE, PRO12, OUR BREAD AND BUTTER, the fact that the IRFU and the provinces have not played their internationals in it HAS devalued it, why is it you are not willing to admit this ?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Notch wrote:
I think they would pay almost exactly the same amount. No-one can guarantee that they will have star players available with injuries and internationals clashing with dates etc.

Exactly. The Pro12 will never get a fair bit more than it gets now from broadcasters. Because it's a lame duck league.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc2jsjnt-HY

Griff wrote:I have to say the 'blame' word seems rather overused in this argument.  If someone (like Chunky) points out differences in funding, for example, or crowds, then it seems to be interpreted as blame.  There's a difference between blame and reasons for poor attendances, lower league position, inability to keep our best players, etc.  We're trying to find reasons here.  Find them and discuss them so that we can perhaps get to a position where we are doing things the same.  Surely to emulate the Irish model, as seems to be the WRU way and as suggested either directly or indirectly by some Irish posters on here, then we have to first identify the differences between the two models so that we can target the right things to improve or change?

The idea of more money (pertaining to this bloody topic) IS precisely that it's one of the Problems Irish rugby brought to the Pro12, Griff - and it's therefore a Blameable aspect.  

Now you personally, Griff, and even Chunky might not have made that claim - but the claim is out there in this thread.  Irish Money allowed Irish sides to laugh off Pro12 and sneer it by sending 2nd sides out to do battle in it.  Had they not the 'Money' to do so, the affront wouldn't have happened because they wouldn't have been strong enough to compete in Europe in the first place, and therefore would have given more attention to the competition they did have a chance of winning  - the Pro12.

That's the accusation, Griff.  Maybe you don't see it clearly because you're on the other side of that fence (naturally so) but I see it and I'm not dumb

Too much money in Irish Provincial pockets stilted the competitive growth of Pro12 over the years, that's the accusation.  I don't mind the accusation.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  But I certainly will respond to such accusations and call them what they are.

Notch wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Notch wrote:
I think they would pay almost exactly the same amount. No-one can guarantee that they will have star players available with injuries and internationals clashing with dates etc.

Exactly. The Pro12 will never get a fair bit more than it gets now from broadcasters. Because it's a lame duck league.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc2jsjnt-HY

Your post basically proved what I set out to prove. Job done.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Notch wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Notch wrote:
I think they would pay almost exactly the same amount. No-one can guarantee that they will have star players available with injuries and internationals clashing with dates etc.

Exactly. The Pro12 will never get a fair bit more than it gets now from broadcasters. Because it's a lame duck league.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc2jsjnt-HY

Your post basically proved what I set out to prove. Job done.

I think thats what they call 'confirmation bias'

Chunky Norwich wrote:Because it's a lame duck league.

For the record, I do not agree with this.

I'll let Kingsley state the case for the defence

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/dragons-coach-kingsley-jones-launches-9101155

Also, I cannot believe that the Irish members on this forum will not take any responsibility for their part in devaluing the league.

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:LD, you've got a bee in your bonnet about getting everyone to agree with you on this. But what have the Irish done wrong?

I will say this ONE LAST TIME. The Irish have done NOTHING wrong, it is up to them if they want to rest their players, they have every right to look after their own needs.

BUT, when it comes to the Pro12, which is what we are talking about, and how we can get more money from sponsors and the media, the fact that nobody wants to pay as much for OUR PRODUCT, is because none of us have treated the league fairly. We have all prioritised ourselves over the league, and WE MUST ALL SHOULDER THE RESPONSIBILITY. Whether that be from in-fighting, not being good enough, bringing in sub standard foreign players, or not putting your best players on show in the league, WE ARE ALL GUILTY, but the Irish want to remain blameless.

You seem to want to ignore facts though, LD, in making your assertion. Ireland only allows its top players/internationals to play 8-10 league games a season. It's obvious there's a similar ruling in Wales as the top players do not play all the games either. So I don't know why you want to ascribe this particular failing to Ireland in particular. It's true for other countries as well in the league. It's made more difficult for Ireland because all of its top players have been kept and play in the league. None of the other three countries do this. Leinster has over 20 players hampered by this.

However, that said, the issue of the Player Management Programme restrictions seems to be coming to a head between the provinces and the IRFU as an extract from this article published today in Irish Independent would seem to indicate:

Leinster wheeled out their big guns yesterday, Sean O'Brien, Matt O'Connor and Rob Kearney, reflecting the growing anxiety at the stringent policies of the IRFU which have cost them vast swathes of their 20-plus international contingent for much of the campaign. Kearney is chairman of IRUPA, the players' body, and as such will be keenly interested in the background talks currently ongoing between his employers, the IRFU, and the club he represents, Leinster.

Something, it seems, has to give. And, given the fact that the returning Johnny Sexton, chairman of the global players' body, has always indicated his frustration at not being allowed to play more games for his club, the debate could get heated.

"It's difficult for us too when you're fit and on the line, watching a game when you're not playing," said Kearney, who will start only his seventh Pro12 game of the season in Belfast on Friday. "There's a programme put in place, players have to buy into it whether it's right or wrong and if ultimately it's helping the national team, well then there is some sort of good coming out of it. That's a debate that's going on quite heavily at the moment, so I suppose as players we just leave it up to the powers that be."

Given that meritocracy is now in place, Leinster's league placing now directly affects their European status, unlike in the past when league placings were wholly irrelevant. It seems the IRFU have cottoned on to this fact, as well as declining attendances at Pro12 games given the regular absences of so many leading stars.

"I think there are a few changes that can be made," Kearney added in that context, "but as far as I'm aware the IRFU aren't overly happy with how it is at the moment too."

So if Leinster aren't happy and the IRFU aren't happy, you'd like to think there will be some amendments made. Whether David Nucifora and Joe Schmidt agree is another matter.
O'Connor has had enough difficulties to deal with all season on the training ground; this one will take place at boardroom level, but his views are well-documented.

"Yeah, I've been very honest in how I've approached those conversations," he reiterated. "I mean, we've had access to our best blokes for 30pc of the season. And unfortunately the League table reflects that. When we have our best blokes we're as good as anyone in Europe. And I think we showed that on Sunday."

Sean O'Brien was injured for half the season and arguably could have benefited from a more sustained run of games upon his belated return in late January; that didn't happen and it may now be too late, unless Leinster can win on Friday and then hope for slip-ups elsewhere.

"It is a difficult one this year," he said. "The Union are in a difficult situation with the World Cup around the corner. They have that in their minds and if you add up all the games that Rob and Jamie and other lads who have played a lot of minutes will play in terms of international games this year, it is an awful lot. The Union are trying to mind that as best they can. I have always said that I would love to play three or four games in a row and then be given a weekend off so you can get a bit of consistency and be match fit, rather than week on and week off. There will be no more weeks off now anyway."

Pot Hale wrote:It's obvious there's a similar ruling in Wales as the top players do not play all the games either.

Erm, no there isn't. Not yet anyway.

LordDowlais wrote:Also, I cannot believe that the Irish members on this forum will not take any responsibility for their part in devaluing the league.

When they get called up, they just ignore it. Post the youtube clip of Dan Parks getting booed in Dublin again.

Look, all this debate came about because a few Irish members on here accused the leagues failing on the Welsh in-fighting and the Welsh wanting to leave the league, I just countered with other neglectful things that other nations have done wrong, but unfortunately their only seems to be one nationality that will hold their hands up and admit where they have gone wrong and failed the league, others would rather jump on that and say it is just because of one thing, and we are faultless, it says a lot more about them than it does about the others.

LordDowlais wrote:Look, all this debate came about because a few Irish members on here accused the leagues failing on the Welsh in-fighting and the Welsh wanting to leave the league, I just countered with other neglectful things that other nations have done wrong, but unfortunately their only seems to be one nationality that will hold their hands up and admit where they have gone wrong and failed the league, others would rather jump on that and say it is just because of one thing, and we are faultless, it says a lot more about them than it does about the others.

Great! Now can you stop making the SAME POINT over and over again. People disagree with you. they understand your point of view, and they disagree with you. That's it. Neither you nor they are morally superior for their views. You have your opinion, they (we to be honest, agree with most of what Notch/Fly etc are saying) have ours. So get off your soapbox, and try and add something to the discussion instead of repeating the same point millions of times. We get it. We disagree. Move on.

LordDowlais wrote:Look, all this debate came about because a few Irish members on here accused the leagues failing on the Welsh in-fighting and the Welsh wanting to leave the league, I just countered with other neglectful things that other nations have done wrong, but unfortunately their only seems to be one nationality that will hold their hands up and admit where they have gone wrong and failed the league, others would rather jump on that and say it is just because of one thing, and we are faultless, it says a lot more about them than it does about the others.

??

The debate started long before then Lord - and yes it was started by the Welsh wanting out.  That was the initiator, we didn't say anything up to then.  That's as blunt a starting point as you could get.  'We want out'.  
Indeed, when the Irish 'countered' by saying we're happy with it, no problem, everything is fine.....  they were simply told 'well you would be, wouldn't you - it's worked for you'.  

Wasn't that the idea?  It was meant to work.  Working for clubs and Nations was the reason it was created.



But anyway, it all went down hill from there, didn't it.  And now the season long complaints about virtually everything - refs, dates, venues, kick-off times, sponsors, broadcasting deals.  

So - how can someone fight for a League when success in it and around it is seen as a weak position - given the 'vested' interest in fighting for it to begin with?  

It seems the weird logic here is that only sides and Nations that haven't profited as much as they'd like in it actually have the moral authority to talk about the good And the bad of it.  We're just biased by our vested interests.  And of course now we won't accept shared responsibility for Welsh anguish either and admit we devalued the League by winning the thing 8 out of 13 times....!

We don't see a problem therefore we don't acknowledge blame.  Welsh fans (some of them) DO see a problem therefore they want to find blame.  We say, 'well if you're determined to blame someone for the failings of the league, blame yourselves first.'  'No way, you Irish must accept some of the blame to be fair about it all'.

No way  We were content.  You do the blaming.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Look, all this debate came about because a few Irish members on here accused the leagues failing on the Welsh in-fighting and the Welsh wanting to leave the league, I just countered with other neglectful things that other nations have done wrong, but unfortunately their only seems to be one nationality that will hold their hands up and admit where they have gone wrong and failed the league, others would rather jump on that and say it is just because of one thing, and we are faultless, it says a lot more about them than it does about the others.

??

The debate started long before then Lord - and yes it was started by the Welsh wanting out.  That was the initiator, we didn't say anything up to then.  That's as blunt a starting point as you could get.  'We want out'.  
Indeed, when the Irish 'countered' by saying we're happy with it, no problem, everything is fine.....  they were simply told 'well you would be, wouldn't you - it's worked for you'.  

Wasn't that the idea?  It was meant to work.  Working for clubs and Nations was the reason it was created.



But anyway, it all went down hill from there, didn't it.  And now the season long complaints about virtually everything - refs, dates, venues, kick-off times, sponsors, broadcasting deals.  

So - how can someone fight for a League when success in it and around it is seen as a weak position - given the 'vested' interest in fighting for it to begin with?  

It seems the weird logic here is that only sides and Nations that haven't profited as much as they'd like in it actually have the moral authority to talk about the good And the bad of it.  We're just biased by our vested interests.  And of course now we won't accept shared responsibility for Welsh anguish either and admit we devalued the League by winning the thing 8 out of 13 times....!

We don't see a problem therefore we don't acknowledge blame.  Welsh fans (some of them) DO see a problem therefore they want to find blame.  We say, 'well if you're determined to blame someone for the failings of the league, blame yourselves first.'  'No way, you Irish must accept some of the blame to be fair about it all'.

No way  We were content.  You do the blaming.

It's because you lack the forethough, intent and awareness to devise any such care or logic as to how we can improve say:

Munster playing 0 home games on a Sunday and Dragons playing whats is it 10?

You simply don't care about improving that stat. Because it suits you.

wolfball wrote:So get off your soapbox

I will get off my soapbox when you start admitting your failings towards the league and stop telling us ours.

Chunky,

I'm not responsible for that stat.
Any other fan in Dublin isn't responsible for that stat.
Any other fan in Belfast isn't responsible for that stat.
Any other fan in Galway isn't responsible for that stat.
Any other fan in Limerick isn't responsible for that stat.
The IRFU aren't responsible for that stat.
The Pro12 isn't responsible for that stat.

The Dragons, their Regional collective (can't remember the initials) the WRU and the local TV networks IN Wales are responsible for that stat.

Someone somewhere at the beginning of the year agreed to that stat.

Saying I should be concerned about that stat is like me telling you you should be concerned about TG4 getting too many games over RTE.  It means nothing to you.  It's as alien a concern as what the Italians do with their TV rights stuff.

The solution to Dragon Sunday games is with the Dragons, their representative body, perhaps the WRU and the channel that shows those Sunday games.

BTW, someone has to turn up for those Sunday games.  So Dragon fans are not always the only ones paying the price of those local decisions.

SecretFly wrote:Chunky,

I'm not responsible for that stat.
Any other fan in Dublin isn't responsible for that stat.
Any other fan in Belfast isn't responsible for that stat.
Any other fan in Galway isn't responsible for that stat.
Any other fan in Limerick isn't responsible for that stat.
The IRFU aren't responsible for that stat.
The Pro12 isn't responsible for that stat.

The Dragons, their Regional collective (can't remember the initials) the WRU and the local TV networks IN Wales are responsible for that stat.

Someone somewhere at the beginning of the year agreed to that stat.

Saying I should be concerned about that stat is like me telling you you should be concerned about TG4 getting too many games over RTE.  It means nothing to you.  It's as alien a concern as what the Italians do with their TV rights stuff.

The solution to Dragon Sunday games is with the Dragons, their representative body, perhaps the WRU and the channel that shows those Sunday games.

BTW, someone has to turn up for those Sunday games.  So Dragon fans are not always the only ones paying the price of those local decisions.

Wash your hands of the problem eh.

I'm alright Jack.

LordDowlais wrote:

wolfball wrote:So get off your soapbox

I will get off my soapbox when you start admitting your failings towards the league and stop telling us ours.

Ok..
We have failed the pro12 due to the following..

Winning it too much and having squads that are too strong and Irish qualified
Growing the amount of people who go to pro 12 games
Winning six European cups and therefore growing awareness of the league

What is it you take responsibility for?

LordDowlais wrote:Look, all this debate came about because a few Irish members on here accused the leagues failing on the Welsh in-fighting and the Welsh wanting to leave the league, I just countered with other neglectful things that other nations have done wrong, but unfortunately their only seems to be one nationality that will hold their hands up and admit where they have gone wrong and failed the league, others would rather jump on that and say it is just because of one thing, and we are faultless, it says a lot more about them than it does about the others.

The point about internal wrangling is one that had already been made by a few commentators (not on this site). Those internal wranglings could refer to internal Welsh strife, could refer to European Cup change, or a myriad of other smaller matters.

The Welsh clubs threatening to join in an Anglo-Welsh league as an alternative is also public knowledge.

The issue of players being rested in Pro12 clubs because they didn't have to qualify for European competition is also a well-aired barb led in the main by English Premiership clubs in pursuit of their own agenda, and mimicked in a fair amount of English media. It was a fair complaint that was acknowledged - belatedly in a lot of cases - that the qualification process was not fair by Pro12 cobs, players, supporters. That qualification process has now changed and the Pro12 is more competitive.

You said you countered with other neglectful things that other nations have done wrong - citing Irish top players not appearing in Pro12 matches as one of the key things.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Chunky,

I'm not responsible for that stat.
Any other fan in Dublin isn't responsible for that stat.
Any other fan in Belfast isn't responsible for that stat.
Any other fan in Galway isn't responsible for that stat.
Any other fan in Limerick isn't responsible for that stat.
The IRFU aren't responsible for that stat.
The Pro12 isn't responsible for that stat.

The Dragons, their Regional collective (can't remember the initials) the WRU and the local TV networks IN Wales are responsible for that stat.

Someone somewhere at the beginning of the year agreed to that stat.

Saying I should be concerned about that stat is like me telling you you should be concerned about TG4 getting too many games over RTE.  It means nothing to you.  It's as alien a concern as what the Italians do with their TV rights stuff.

The solution to Dragon Sunday games is with the Dragons, their representative body, perhaps the WRU and the channel that shows those Sunday games.

BTW, someone has to turn up for those Sunday games.  So Dragon fans are not always the only ones paying the price of those local decisions.

Wash your hands of the problem eh.

I'm alright Jack.

That's you You seek no solutions. Remember?

But really, you can't get by it can you? That's the biggest hurdle you could put before me to make me feel guilty? Why a Welsh language channel gets to choose a night when might best suit it to show a game that might actually get an audience? That's a big Pro12 issue that I should be worried about over here?

No, fact remains - it's a Dragon issue and they should be asked why they agreed to it, and their overseeing body should be asked why they allowed it, and the WRU should be asked why one of the regions has so many Sunday games.

None of that happened? And we're partially to blame?

I forgot to add we failed also by improving Connachts squad and their competitiveness

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Chunky,

I'm not responsible for that stat.
Any other fan in Dublin isn't responsible for that stat.
Any other fan in Belfast isn't responsible for that stat.
Any other fan in Galway isn't responsible for that stat.
Any other fan in Limerick isn't responsible for that stat.
The IRFU aren't responsible for that stat.
The Pro12 isn't responsible for that stat.

The Dragons, their Regional collective (can't remember the initials) the WRU and the local TV networks IN Wales are responsible for that stat.

Someone somewhere at the beginning of the year agreed to that stat.

Saying I should be concerned about that stat is like me telling you you should be concerned about TG4 getting too many games over RTE.  It means nothing to you.  It's as alien a concern as what the Italians do with their TV rights stuff.

The solution to Dragon Sunday games is with the Dragons, their representative body, perhaps the WRU and the channel that shows those Sunday games.

BTW, someone has to turn up for those Sunday games.  So Dragon fans are not always the only ones paying the price of those local decisions.

Wash your hands of the problem eh.

I'm alright Jack.

That's you  You seek no solutions.  Remember?

I've come up with the ONLY solution.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Look, all this debate came about because a few Irish members on here accused the leagues failing on the Welsh in-fighting and the Welsh wanting to leave the league, I just countered with other neglectful things that other nations have done wrong, but unfortunately their only seems to be one nationality that will hold their hands up and admit where they have gone wrong and failed the league, others would rather jump on that and say it is just because of one thing, and we are faultless, it says a lot more about them than it does about the others.

??

The debate started long before then Lord - and yes it was started by the Welsh wanting out.  That was the initiator, we didn't say anything up to then.  That's as blunt a starting point as you could get.  'We want out'.  
Indeed, when the Irish 'countered' by saying we're happy with it, no problem, everything is fine.....  they were simply told 'well you would be, wouldn't you - it's worked for you'.  

Wasn't that the idea?  It was meant to work.  Working for clubs and Nations was the reason it was created.



But anyway, it all went down hill from there, didn't it.  And now the season long complaints about virtually everything - refs, dates, venues, kick-off times, sponsors, broadcasting deals.  

So - how can someone fight for a League when success in it and around it is seen as a weak position - given the 'vested' interest in fighting for it to begin with?  

It seems the weird logic here is that only sides and Nations that haven't profited as much as they'd like in it actually have the moral authority to talk about the good And the bad of it.  We're just biased by our vested interests.  And of course now we won't accept shared responsibility for Welsh anguish either and admit we devalued the League by winning the thing 8 out of 13 times....!

We don't see a problem therefore we don't acknowledge blame.  Welsh fans (some of them) DO see a problem therefore they want to find blame.  We say, 'well if you're determined to blame someone for the failings of the league, blame yourselves first.'  'No way, you Irish must accept some of the blame to be fair about it all'.

No way  We were content.  You do the blaming.

It's because you lack the forethough, intent and awareness to devise any such care or logic as to how we can improve say:

Munster playing 0 home games on a Sunday and Dragons playing whats is it 10?

You simply don't care about improving that stat. Because it suits you.

The debate was started by Chunky who complained about the poor tv money for the PRO12 in comparision to Aviva & Top14. Chunky claimed that the reason this is because the Irish in particular don't field all their international players for every game. The Irish on here claim that the reason the tv money is poor is because a lot of Welsh fans continually bitch and moan about the Pro12 which would put off any sponsor or tv company from having anything to do about it.

Chunky, Sunday would suit Munster fans better than Friday nights (when most Munster games have been played. The best time for Munster would be Saturday evening at about 5pm which would allow local club games to be played and people to come long distances with kids (they could be back home at a reasonable hour).

The reason why a lot of the Welsh games are to do with TV coverage - your broadcaster is unable to do it on a Friday night. Only Sky are allowed broadcast on Saturday (maybe BT will tender next time so that restriction won't be imposed).

A suggestion for how maybe the Welsh regions could improve their attendances - how about doing a double bill with Leinster v Ospreys game in the Millenium stadium followed by a Dragons v Connacht game. Make a big deal about it. Ask the Irish Provinces to send all their top players etc. to it (if that is what the Welsh public want).

If you put a bit of effort into it, you would probably get a few Irish travellers over (on ferry).

Chunky Norwich wrote:[

It's because you lack the forethough, intent and awareness to devise any such care or logic as to how we can improve say:

Munster playing 0 home games on a Sunday and Dragons playing whats is it 10?

You simply don't care about improving that stat. Because it suits you.

I know how Dragons can play less games on a Sunday. It's very simple.

Sin é wrote:A suggestion for how maybe the Welsh regions could improve their attendances - how about doing a double bill with Leinster v Ospreys game in the Millenium stadium followed by a Dragons v Connacht game. Make a big deal about it. Ask the Irish Provinces to send all their top players etc. to it (if that is what the Welsh public want).

We are doing that this weekend over 50,000 people are expected to turn out so far.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:A suggestion for how maybe the Welsh regions could improve their attendances - how about doing a double bill with Leinster v Ospreys game in the Millenium stadium followed by a Dragons v Connacht game. Make a big deal about it. Ask the Irish Provinces to send all their top players etc. to it (if that is what the Welsh public want).

We are doing that this weekend over 50,000 people are expected to turn out so far.

I know, thats why I thought of doing it with the Irish Provinces - developing the concept more.

On another note, the Munster Supporters Club in London have been running coaches to games in Wales because of no European knock-outs this year.

Sin é wrote:

The debate was started by Chunky who complained about the poor tv money for the PRO12 in comparision to Aviva & Top14. Chunky claimed that the reason this is because the Irish in particular don't field all their international players for every game. The Irish on here claim that the reason the tv money is poor is because a lot of Welsh fans continually bitch and moan about the Pro12 which would put off any sponsor or tv company from having anything to do about it.

Chunky, Sunday would suit Munster fans better than Friday nights (when most Munster games have been played. The best time for Munster would be Saturday evening at about 5pm which would allow local club games to be played and people to come long distances with kids (they could be back home at a reasonable hour).

The reason why a lot of the Welsh games are to do with TV coverage - your broadcaster is unable to do it on a Friday night. Only Sky are allowed broadcast on Saturday (maybe BT will tender next time so that restriction won't be imposed).

A suggestion for how maybe the Welsh regions could improve their attendances - how about doing a double bill with Leinster v Ospreys game in the Millenium stadium followed by a Dragons v Connacht game. Make a big deal about it. Ask the Irish Provinces to send all their top players etc. to it (if that is what the Welsh public want).

If you put a bit of effort into it, you would probably get a few Irish travellers over (on ferry).

We know the reasons. But you don't care about the reasons. Or improving them.

I'd go so far as to say you'd perhaps even like things to stay the same as each little thing hamstrings the welsh sides further. Which is a lovely little bi-product for the Irish sides.

When will this WUM thread end?

Who cares which league is better?! Let's just agree that they all suck.

Just please stop feeding the trolls.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

We know the reasons. But you don't care about the reasons. Or improving them.

I'd go so far as to say you'd perhaps even like things to stay the same as each little thing hamstrings the welsh sides further. Which is a lovely little bi-product for the Irish sides.

If I appear not to care, I no there is nothing I can do about them.

For the record, Friday night games for Munster are destroying its attendance and they have to put up with it.

I think its amusing that you assume that Sunday is a bad day for games - well not in Ireland (except in NI). Sunday is the big day for GAA in Ireland (in fact people would view Saturday in the same way as you appear to view Sundays).

Sin é wrote:
I think its amusing that you assume that Sunday is a bad day for games

I haven't assumed anything. As usual, I've just posted a fact.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I think its amusing that you assume that Sunday is a bad day for games

I haven't assumed anything. As usual, I've just posted a fact.

Well, its a fact that Friday is a bad day for Munster, but Friday is good for Ulster in particular and goodish day for Leinster (as they are both in fairly big cities and will draw a crowd).

As a matter of interest, why is Sunday a bad day in Wales?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

We know the reasons. But you don't care about the reasons. Or improving them.

I'd go so far as to say you'd perhaps even like things to stay the same as each little thing hamstrings the welsh sides further. Which is a lovely little bi-product for the Irish sides.

Now we're getting to the nitty gritty. Mutual annihilation is the real show here?
How can the Irish truly and slyly sink the Welsh? - Invent the Pro12 and watch it happen.
How can the Welsh truly and slyly sink the Irish? - Seek a B&I League and hopefully watch it happen.

Oh the underhandedness of it all. No wonder we don't trust each other... This is a Tango to the death it seems Only Scotland looks like surviving the bloodshed.

Sin é wrote:

As a matter of interest, why is Sunday a bad day in Wales?

Sunday afternoon is more of a family time. I could handle 1 game once in a while on a Sunday, but this season has taken the p1ss. The TV deal needs to be changed pronto. All days need to be shared out between all nations.

My guess is Ulster won't allow this, seeing as they run the league.

SecretFly wrote:
How can the Welsh truly and slyly sink the Irish? - Seek a B&I League and hopefully watch it happen.

Why would a British and Irish League that generates x million more Euro for the Irish sides "slyly sink the Irish" ?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
How can the Welsh truly and slyly sink the Irish? - Seek a B&I League and hopefully watch it happen.

Why would a British and Irish League that generates x million more Euro for the Irish sides "slyly sink the Irish" ?

What would kicking the Italians out of your league achieve?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

What would kicking the Italians out of your league achieve?

Bizarre turn of questioning.

Erm, No games in test periods and less costs is my immediate thought.

Just wondering why a reduction in teams would help. Would have thought it would generate less interest with less teams involved that's all, see the point of reduction in travel though.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:

As a matter of interest, why is Sunday a bad day in Wales?

Sunday afternoon is more of a family time. I could handle 1 game once in a while on a Sunday, but this season has taken the p1ss. The TV deal needs to be changed pronto. All days need to be shared out between all nations.

My guess is Ulster won't allow this, seeing as they run the league.

Sunday afternoon is a family time in Ireland as well when it would be traditional (in ROI anyway) for the whole family to head off to a family friendly GAA match. Are Regional games not family friendly? Munster do family packs of 2 adults and 2 children for 40 euro as well as having a whole play area for kids. Leinster have something similar.

Bizarre comment about Ulster. They are just lucky that they are the only Province that has to contend for airtime on BBCNI and Friday nights suit their broadcasting schedule.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just wondering why a reduction in teams would help. Would have thought it would generate less interest with less teams involved that's all, see the point of reduction in travel though.

The quality of the Italian teams is a sticking point in getting people to buy into the league in my opinion.

You might think that 5k people attending a game is better than none, but the product overall is weakened having the Italian teams in it in my opinion.

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:

As a matter of interest, why is Sunday a bad day in Wales?

Sunday afternoon is more of a family time. I could handle 1 game once in a while on a Sunday, but this season has taken the p1ss. The TV deal needs to be changed pronto. All days need to be shared out between all nations.

My guess is Ulster won't allow this, seeing as they run the league.

Sunday afternoon is a family time in Ireland as well when it would be traditional (in ROI anyway) for the whole family to head off to a family friendly GAA match. Are Regional games not family friendly? Munster do family packs of 2 kids and 2 children for 40 euro as well as having a whole play area for kids. Leinster have something similar.

Bizarre comment about Ulster. They are just lucky that they are the only Province that has to contend for airtime on BBCNI and Friday nights suit their broadcasting schedule.

Lucky eh. Lucky old Ulster.

I'm sure there are family deals for the regions. Getting the punters in is another thing entirely.

Do you not agree that when the next tv deal is up for grabs, that the fixture days should be shared out equally? Not dependent on which country only has 1 team etc?