Pro12 Value - The Facts (continued)

First topic message reminder :

A continuation of Chunky Norwich's original thread:
https://www.606v2.com/t58514-pro12-value-the-facts

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The Pro12 has grown a huge amount in the last 10 years (it did suffer a slight set back last year but this year has been much improved) but with the Regions now looking settled, the league can push on to greater things.

Hopefully! Edinburgh winning challenge cup and Glasgow winning the league would help it grow too I reckon.

The Saint wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The Pro12 has grown a huge amount in the last 10 years (it did suffer a slight set back last year but this year has been much improved) but with the Regions now looking settled, the league can push on to greater things.

Hopefully! Edinburgh winning challenge cup and Glasgow winning the league would help it grow too I reckon.

You'd like to think so. But growth didn't happen in Wales off the back of Ospreys' numerous league wins or Blues' winning the Amlin Cup, unfortunately. It should help, but our experience is that it didn't (here).

Griff wrote:

The Saint wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The Pro12 has grown a huge amount in the last 10 years (it did suffer a slight set back last year but this year has been much improved) but with the Regions now looking settled, the league can push on to greater things.

Hopefully! Edinburgh winning challenge cup and Glasgow winning the league would help it grow too I reckon.

You'd like to think so.  But growth didn't happen in Wales off the back of Ospreys' numerous league wins or Blues' winning the Amlin Cup, unfortunately.  It should help, but our experience is that it didn't (here).

No amount of "x winning this" will help a lame horse.

Griff wrote:

The Saint wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The Pro12 has grown a huge amount in the last 10 years (it did suffer a slight set back last year but this year has been much improved) but with the Regions now looking settled, the league can push on to greater things.

Hopefully! Edinburgh winning challenge cup and Glasgow winning the league would help it grow too I reckon.

You'd like to think so.  But growth didn't happen in Wales off the back of Ospreys' numerous league wins or Blues' winning the Amlin Cup, unfortunately.  It should help, but our experience is that it didn't (here).

Ospreys are still competitive and should be stronger next year hopefully. Blues were good but are run by amateurs at the top; it's difficult to tell whether they'll get out of this rut. I think the two Scottish clubs have a good coaching set-up, so might be in a better position to develop. Winning for them should lead to more revenue, then more investment, stronger teams and then stronger competition for the league - we need to get our act together or they'll overtake us.

After the Ospreys won their last league title there was a bump in attendances. I remember them getting 10k vs Ulster in the following season but it was all undone when the Ospreys lost some key players abroad and a poor showing in Europe.

Winning is what will bring people to the stadiums, not putting rugby on PPV.

LordDowlais wrote:Winning is what will bring people to the stadiums, not putting rugby on PPV.

More chance of winning in a fairer league with more money at your disposal.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Winning is what will bring people to the stadiums, not putting rugby on PPV.

More chance of winning in a  fairer league with more money at your disposal.

Yes I agree, but putting it on PPV will reduce the support our regions will have.

Irish Londoner wrote:Even if Irish teams played full strength teams until the players broke down, if Wales got everyone home on central contracts and played them, Scotland arose like a phoenix from the ashes and the Italians got seriously competitive there are still only a finite number of people who will watch the games, either on TV or in the ground and IMHO rugby has already reached that point in the Celtic nations.

I am sorry but I do not agree with this, we are not that far behind New Zealand and Australia and South Africa for the amounts of viewers, in fact, with Italy we could be higher, I do not know, I have not checked. Sky pay good money for the Super 14, so that we in Britain and Ireland can watch it, there is no reason why sky would not do the same for the other way around for the Pro12, or any other broadcaster for that point, in this day and age the rugby audience is bigger than the countries it represents.

putting it on sky would be the deathknell. attendances would drop and interest would wane

TJ wrote:putting it on sky would be the deathknell.  attendances would drop and interest would wane

There is no evidence that this has been the case at all previously. The ECB conducted research into participation in cricket since broadcasting on sky sports. No affect whatsoever, actually I think it had increased in participation, especially at age grade.

Well, putting rugby on Sky would not improve the attendances at the regions, and it WOULD reduce the no. of armchair fans, thus the regions would be out of the public eye, thus I would assume the sponsors would not pay as much to advertise, thus a loss of money. I would have thought that it was all as easy as that, unless somebody can give me a powerpoint meeting on the subject with nice graphs and figures....... God I hate giving those presentations.

LordDowlais wrote:Well, putting rugby on Sky would not improve the attendances at the regions, and it WOULD reduce the no. of armchair fans, thus the regions would be out of the public eye, thus I would assume the sponsors would not pay as much to advertise, thus a loss of money. I would have thought that it was all as easy as that, unless somebody can give me a powerpoint meeting on the subject with nice graphs and figures....... God I hate giving those presentations.

How has the opposite happenned in England?

The lack of coverage of many teams away games would make them getting exclusive rights something of a disappointment on a personal level, for that reason I hope we can continue to have Sky broadcasting 1 or 2 games a weekend and other broadcasters picking up the rest of the games.

I don't think having games covered on TV is that destructive to crowd sizes. I think good marketing and creating a good experience, as well as the magic carrot of success, can make up for that. People go to games for the atmosphere, and to have a night out with your mates and for everything that you don't get in your armchair at home. Focus on selling that experience and crowds can rise regardless of whether its on TV or not.

Chunky Norwich wrote:How has the opposite happenned in England?

I dunno, perhaps because there are more people in England who can afford PPV TV.

Holy cr@p - is this still going?

I was going to turn the lights off and turn around the notice hanging on the door.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:How has the opposite happenned in England?

I dunno, perhaps because there are more people in England who can afford PPV TV.

Comes down to 2 things IMO:

1) The right product. So people want to see the match on tv
2) The sense of entitlement - people think they should be able to watch professional rugby (that costs money) yet don't want to have to pay to watch it.

Notch wrote:I don't think having games covered on TV is that destructive to crowd sizes. I think good marketing and creating a good experience, as well as the magic carrot of success, can make up for that. People go to games for the atmosphere, and to have a night out with your mates and for everything that you don't get in your armchair at home. Focus on selling that experience and crowds can rise regardless of whether its on TV or not.

I Agree. Well said. You have explained it better than me, cheers.

LD what I meant was that even if attendances increased, it would at best be only a few tens of thousands - and the same with TV viewers - rugby is an established game in GB & I and unless there's some sort of huge payoff from the RWC the numbers playing the game, watching the game in a ground or on TV are going to stay pretty static give or take.
Regarding Super 15 we only get it (and all the other SH rugby) because Sky have already paid for it in their SH market, so effectively it's a way of filling lots of broadcast time for next to nothing.
I don't think crowds have grown hugely in England - expect perhaps at Wasps in the new stadium - certainly once you strip out Wembley, LDH and so on.
Notch is right improve the product and experience the the crowds may grow but the only way there will be more serious revenue in the game is if at some point in the future BT decide to splurge a load more cash to buy up all domestic rugby.

So would switching to a British league help all that much in generating additional TV/Sponsorship revenue? Sufficiently more to get Premiership clubs interested? And if so, would most of the money want to support english clubs - given the much larger population behind them so to speak?

IMO the league has to seriously consider a full Sky PPV coverage in the near future, not next year actually as there will be depleted squads for the beginning of the season but hopefully for the year after. Keep the current arrangement for next season. The league needs a big amount of money from TV to fight PRL and the French and this can only come from Sky.

I think Sky are currently paying way too little for the quality of rugby they are showing.

Irish Londoner wrote:LD what I meant was that even if attendances increased, it would at best be only a few tens of thousands - and the same with TV viewers - rugby is an established game in GB & I and unless there's some sort of huge payoff from the RWC the numbers playing the game, watching the game in a ground or on TV are going to stay pretty static give or take.
Regarding Super 15 we only get it (and all the other SH rugby) because Sky have already paid for it in their SH market, so effectively it's a way of filling lots of broadcast time for next to nothing.
I don't think crowds have grown hugely in England - expect perhaps at Wasps in the new stadium - certainly once you strip out Wembley, LDH and so on.
Notch is right improve the product and experience the the crowds may grow but the only way there will be more serious revenue in the game is if at some point in the future BT decide to splurge a load more cash to buy up all domestic rugby.

This is interesting because it's been suggested that in Wales our crowds should be much higher. I've often wondered and argued that perhaps, given the population size, that what we're getting week in week out (so averaging) is maybe about as much as we can expect. A few thousand more each perhaps. Swollen numbers for the bigger games. But figures of 12-15k have been bandied about as a target, which is double what most regions get. I'm not sure this is ever going to be realistic. Maybe we're near the ceiling? Certainly at the Dragons we can't go much higher as we only have around 8,000 capacity! Doh!

Totally agree with the above and Notch though. We need to see the match day crowd and the armchair crowd as different markets. Yes the armchair boys might be enticed down to the game now and again. But for them the razzmatazz of Sky might be enough of a draw and will probably keep them home. But there's a good subset of the population who (in my Dragons experience) are being missed. I've mentioned here before that Newport RFC used to do much more than Dragons currently do on match day - supporters village, Irish band for the Irish teams (aimed squarely at the home fans I might add: Irish band = reason to have a party and spend more at the bar. We love an Irish band in Wales!), hog roast, etc. This seemed to stop with the move to the Celtic league and at the time predominantly Friday games. People then became more 'in and out' and would be less likely to bring kids to a 7pm kick off than a Saturday 3pm kick off. Friday night was not seen as a day out opportunity (obvs) compared to Saturday. Still, activities like that could bring the families back, especially if they persist with Sunday games. But they need to do more than just the game. Currently people get there, watch the game and p*ss off. Or perhpas have a pint before after. There's no additional entertainment though.

Griff, I remember Friday night games at Newport especially in the HC, the kids used to go on the ferris wheel, and go on the other rides that used to be there, I remember I was at a Friday night game I cannot remember who it was against, but Gary Teichmann was subbed with about ten minutes to go, and he was standing behind the Newport dead ball line screaming and supporting the players to keep holding out, the crowd were whipped up to fever pitch by it, what a cracking night that was, nights like that will never be seen again, not in Europe anyway.

But to get back to the topic, why has all the fairground gone from outside RP ? Also, for my liking the armchair fan potentially brings in more money, the more tele viewers we have, the more the sponsors will pay to get their product out to a wider audience, if we went to PPV we would lose a hell of a lot of armchair fans, and the regions would not be in the public eye as much. For me that would be a disaster, if we want to get bigger crowds, then we must have a look at Welsh rugby as a whole, because fans in Wales cannot afford to be in two places, it is either their local side or their region.

I reckon crowds will come with success though, and as the next generation comes along, and the rivalries between the clubs and the regions fade, we will see more people attending the regional games.

Griff - to a point the clubs can increase the attendance slightly with off-pitch stuff, things for the kids, etc. but I think we've sort of found a natural level - maybe a more sucessful side would add a couple of thousand to the gate and maybe a few more tens of thousands to the  TV audience but across the country we've effectively reached the peak audience/attendance.

This is particularly true in areas where there may be less disposable income - you may still go to the rugby but it's an in and out visit, you won't stay for beers afterwards or go to a funfair. etc. or you may just stay at home and watch it on TV with a four pack.

Attendances at the Regions may start to improve in future years as the young people getting into the game won't have the "disenfranchisement" thing going on - they'll just see the Regions as the top end of the sport, same as the difference in soccer between Swansea and Afan Lido, you might support your local LofW side but to watch the top end of the sport you go to Swansea (or Liverpool/Manchester) in north Wales.

Just to point out that this also applies to England as well - yes the LDH/Saracens at Wembley get loads of people but they don't appear to be taking the "day out" experience and turning it into going to the club - people will punt £10/£20 on a ticket for Wembley or Twickenham but are not parlaying that into spending £30 for a ticket at the Allianz.

Irish Londoner wrote:

Attendances at the Regions may start to improve in future years as the young people getting into the game won't have the "disenfranchisement" thing going on

The attendances will never increase if the regions are still in the pro12, because the public don't, buy into the product. If the regions were playing English sides at decent times with a decent budget and decent officials, then there would be a chance.

Chunky Norwich wrote:The attendances will never increase if the regions are still in the pro12, because the public don't, buy into the product.

I do not agree with this, after all, if that was the case then there would be NO fans at all turning up.

What we need is success, if the regions are all fighting for honours then the fans will come, perhaps with these new DC the strength in depth for the regions will improve thus the results will improve as well.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

Attendances at the Regions may start to improve in future years as the young people getting into the game won't have the "disenfranchisement" thing going on

The attendances will never increase if the regions are still in the pro12, because the public don't, buy into the product. If the regions were playing English sides at decent times with a decent budget and decent officials, then there would be a chance.

Surely that must explains why Scarlets only got 8k against Tigers and O's only got 7k against Saints in very important euro games earlier this season...

VinceWLB wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

Attendances at the Regions may start to improve in future years as the young people getting into the game won't have the "disenfranchisement" thing going on

The attendances will never increase if the regions are still in the pro12, because the public don't, buy into the product. If the regions were playing English sides at decent times with a decent budget and decent officials, then there would be a chance.

Surely that must explains why Scarlets only got 8k against Tigers and O's only got 7k against Saints in very important euro games earlier this season...

No, that doesn't explain it. As you may know, the causes of declining crowds in the last 2/3 years run far deeper.

Chunky Norwich wrote: The attendances will never increase if the regions are still in the pro12, because the public don't, buy into the product. If the regions were playing English sides at decent times with a decent budget and decent officials, then there would be a chance.

Chunks you might well be right that there would be bigger crowds at Regional games if they were playing the English, but as we've already agreed that simply isn't going to happen as there's no benefit in inviting the Welsh sides in for the English clubs.

Just a few reasons:
The lower end English clubs would not stand for it so the PRL would have properly fund a two division set up so that the Englsih clubs dropped to the second teir to acomodate the Welsh could sustain their businesses, without any funding from the RFU who would not give funds to such a league.
The WRU would withdraw their funding from the Regions so they'd be forked anyway.
How do you deal with promotion and relegation - it's going to be difficult to agree a ringfenced league for England alone, I expect all sorts of legal challenges from the clubs left out, let alone telling Worcester, Leeds or Bristiol you can't come in so we can fit in the Welsh.
Your argument assumes that English fans also want to see the  Welsh sides - given the state of the current regional sides would the likes of Quins, Leicester, Saracens and so on want to play them - outside of maybe the "border" sides, Bath, Bristol and Gloucester who might want to stuff up the neighbours, I doubt if Northampton fans would be overly excited about Scarlets coming to town.

It's a bit like the "Why can't Celtic and Rangers play in the Premier League?" bleating that you get in Scotland - and it's the same answer, there would be no benefit to the current English clubs to allow them to do so although there would be obvious advantages to the Scottish clubs.

You keep saying that the PRO12 is an inferior product compared to the TOP14 and the Avivia and why can't it generate more revenue when you are fully aware that it can't and unless there's a huge change such as a B & I league never will. The PRO12 clubs will have to work with what they have rather than what they'd like to have.

Irish Londoner wrote:

Chunks you might well be right that there would be bigger crowds at Regional games if they were playing the English, but as we've already agreed that simply isn't going to happen as there's no benefit in inviting the Welsh sides in for the English clubs.

Just a few reasons:
The lower end English clubs would not stand for it so the PRL would have properly fund a two division set up so that the Englsih clubs dropped to the second teir to acomodate the Welsh could sustain their businesses, without any funding from the RFU who would not give funds to such a league.
The WRU would withdraw their funding from the Regions so they'd be forked anyway.
How do you deal with promotion and relegation - it's going to be difficult to agree a ringfenced league for England alone, I expect all sorts of legal challenges from the clubs left out, let alone telling Worcester, Leeds or Bristiol you can't come in so we can fit in the Welsh.
Your argument assumes that English fans also want to see the  Welsh sides - given the state of the current regional sides would the likes of Quins, Leicester, Saracens and so on want to play them - outside of maybe the "border" sides, Bath, Bristol and Gloucester who might want to stuff up the neighbours, I doubt if Northampton fans would be overly excited about Scarlets coming to town.

It's a bit like the "Why can't Celtic and Rangers play in the Premier League?" bleating that you get in Scotland - and it's the same answer, there would be no benefit to the current English clubs to allow them to do so although there would be obvious advantages to the Scottish clubs.

Yup.

You keep saying that the PRO12 is an inferior product compared to the TOP14 and the Avivia and why can't it generate more revenue when you are fully aware that it can't and unless there's a huge change such as a B & I league never will.

Edd Zackary. You've just nailed it. That is why it is a dead league.

The PRO12 clubs will have to work with what they have rather than what they'd like to have.

Which will never be enough. Once the Irish provinces haven't made a Euro semi final for 3 years on the trot they might start using their noodles.

What the Pro12 needs is more Carpet Undersweepers. Honesty is bad for Image bizz. Again, the Irish show PRL the way. Cheat hard and often, buy a ref if you need one, fix the crowd numbers with free seats to latecomers. Protect the product image above all regard for fairness.

I don't know what all the fuss is about.

Which soap opera is this? At first I thought it was the Archers, a tale of simple country folk. Now it seems as if there are more Machiavellian pursuits at play.

Oh it's good, tiger!!!!! It's a f**king Box Set Marvel this one. It's beginning to knock Crown of Thorns.... I mean Thorn of Cronies.... I mean Game of Cronies......!!! Damn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - you know the one I mean. It's beginning to outdo that one in the ratings.

You should do stand up SecretFly, you really make me laugh.

Chunks, this is where we differ - the PRO12 isn't a dead league it's a different league.

For example , in football there are three dominant leagues on mainland Europe, Spain, Italy and Germany - and (on paper at least) they are the only countries likely to ever win anything at European level.

However the Dutch, Swiss, Belgians, Danes, Swedes, etc. all still have a domestic football league which is competitive, well attended, shown on their national TV, and they enter the European club competitions with the big boys and sometimes do a lot better than their national size, population, player pool or finances dictate that they should do.

The same applies to the PRO12, it is the small clubs and countries mixing it with the big boys and from time to time giving them a bloody nose when they aren't expecting it, your only solution appears to be "it's not working so close it down", without offering any viable alternative to ensure that there is still a professional game in Wales, Scotland, Ireland and Italy.

Irish Londoner wrote: without offering any viable alternative to ensure that there is still a professional game in Wales, Scotland, Ireland and Italy.

Did you not see my British and Irish League thread that I bothered to research, model and post?

Chunky, yes and I agreed with you that it would be the absolute best way forward, in the long term even the English clubs would benefit, but under current circumstances outlined previously above, it's about as likely as the South African joining the PRL.
Therefore the question stands how do we make the PRO12 better in the currrent set up?

Irish Londoner wrote:Chunky, yes and I agreed with you that it would be the absolute best way forward, in the long term even the English clubs would benefit, but under current circumstances outlined previously above, it's about as likely as the South African joining the PRL.

So I DID offer a viable alternative.

Therefore the question stands how do we make the PRO12 better in the currrent set up?

I do not believe it is possible. That is the whole point of my argument.

You offered a viable alternative that is not possibly going to happen...Makes sense.

A B&I league is not realistic and therefore not viable.

ME-109 wrote:A B&I league is not realistic and therefore not viable.

I disagree. It is the only way the celtic countries can even start to thinking about bridging the funding gap.

The Pro12 will not do this.

Tell you what, I've offerred a model to how I think we can bridge the £30m gap.

Why don't you offer a model on how you think the Pro 12 can increase funding by £30m within a couple of years?

But as stated above the English clubs would not agree to it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:But as stated above the English clubs would not agree to it.

How d you know? If the chance to play week in week out against the top Irish and Welsh players brings in more money with a new BT tv deal then I strongly feel PRL would listen.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:But as stated above the English clubs would not agree to it.

How d you know? If the chance to play week in week out against the top Irish and Welsh players brings in more money with a new BT tv deal then I strongly feel  PRL would listen.

So they can't generate enough interest/money themselves but they will make the English league more money? I can see the point of the draw of Munster and Leinster possibly but it would still be a hard sell to the English clubs who would have to make way. Categorically ain't going to happen.

The Pro 12 needs to get as much as it can from TV and sponship of course but it doesn't need to bridge a 30 million gap to be competitive. We get way more money from our unions and there is a good deal of loyalty from our players. The Irish provinces are still very competitive in the marketplace as shown with the signings of Piautau and Saili and the return of Sexton.

We currently have a Four Nation League (Four Distinct Rugby Nations/Three Political Nations) in Pro12.

Now we're all seeing how harmonious the Pro12 is. It's totally free from slights, insults, accusations of mistrust, cries of outright treachery, sneers of arrogance and taunts of cheating ......

So obviously - the better show would be to close all that overly fussy, pan-Nationalistic nonsense down and start up a New League?

A Four Nation League (Four Distinct Rugby Nations/Two Political Nations) that have had an altogether lovelier and cosier history between them of mutual love, complete trust in each other and each others hidden motives. And a history of never, ever wanting to accuse the other of cheating, bullying or being arrogant????

Why would this new Multi-National League be so different to the current Multi-National Multi-Mistrust League we have going now?

The Welsh don't trust the Irish.  
The Irish won't trust the English.  
The Scots will remember that the Welsh don't really want them at all but just needed them to get to the Anglo/Welsh bit.
The Irish will also giggle that the Welsh only wanted their signatures to get to the Anglo/Welsh bit. 
There'd be major money issues.  
There'd be major sponsorship issues.
There'd be MAJOR administation issues.
The presumption of Bias would arise from money, sponsorship and administration issues.  
There'd be accusations that English refs are being biased when reffing strong Irish sides against Welsh weaker sides.  
There'd be accusations that Irish refs are being biased when reffing strong Welsh sides against English weaker ones.
There would be continuous conflict and friction between the concept of Union and Club.


Why should the next Multi National League work better than the current one where Distrust is the main Spokesperson for it to date?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The Pro 12 needs to get as much as it can from TV and sponship of course but it doesn't need to bridge a 30 million gap to be competitive.

I guess we'll see.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Tell you what, I've offerred a model to how I think we can bridge the £30m gap.

Why don't you offer a model on how you think the Pro 12 can increase funding by £30m within a couple of years?

Pro12 11 million?
AP 40 million?

Now, tell us....what would a I&B League get????

51 million?
80million?
150million?

What would a I&B League get, do you think?

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Tell you what, I've offerred a model to how I think we can bridge the £30m gap.

Why don't you offer a model on how you think the Pro 12 can increase funding by £30m within a couple of years?

Pro12 11 million?
AP 40 million?

Now, tell us....what would a I&B League get????  

51 million?
80million?
150million?

What would a I&B League get, do you think?  

Any figure I type is speculation. It's pointless. But I firmly believe it's doable and will attract more sponsors (from all countries involved) and would be worth it.

And who would be the teams who lose out because of it as despite your other suggestion any 2nd tier would be the very poor cousin. How much money would be lost from Europe as it'll be a reduction of teams competing or a very very big step down in quality. Why would the English clubs vote to lose money themselves?