Pro12 Value - The Facts (continued)

First topic message reminder :

A continuation of Chunky Norwich's original thread:
https://www.606v2.com/t58514-pro12-value-the-facts

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The Pro 12 needs to get as much as it can from TV and sponship of course but it doesn't need to bridge a 30 million gap to be competitive.

I guess we'll see.

Alright then only use half my quote to suit your own agenda... What I meant was we don't need to have the same tv deal as the AP to be competitive in the marketplace because of the way the P12 clubs are run.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And who would be the teams who lose out because of it as despite your other suggestion any 2nd tier would be the very poor cousin. How much money would be lost from Europe as it'll be a reduction of teams competing or a very very big step down in quality. Why would the English clubs vote to lose money themselves?

Why would there be money lost from Europe?

As I've said countless times, I'd bite your hand off for my team to start in the 2nd tier with Dragons, Wasps, Harlequins, Blues, Connacht, Worcester, Newcastle etc.

I genuinely can't wait to revisit these threads in circa 3 years time when there are loads of people calling for radical change because domestic rugby in the celtic nations has fallen so far behind England.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The Pro 12 needs to get as much as it can from TV and sponship of course but it doesn't need to bridge a 30 million gap to be competitive.

I guess we'll see.

Alright then only use half my quote to suit your own agenda... What I meant was we don't need to have the same tv deal as the AP to be competitive in the marketplace because of the way the P12 clubs are run.

See my point above. Once the English salary cap is raised the gap will start to widen. Then in 3 or 4 seasons more people will realise something needs to be done.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And who would be the teams who lose out because of it as despite your other suggestion any 2nd tier would be the very poor cousin. How much money would be lost from Europe as it'll be a reduction of teams competing or a very very big step down in quality. Why would the English clubs vote to lose money themselves?

Why would there be money lost from Europe?

As I've said countless times, I'd bite your hand off for my team to start in the 2nd tier with Dragons, Wasps, Harlequins, Blues, Connacht, Worcester, Newcastle etc.

I genuinely can't wait to revisit these threads in circa 3 years time when there are loads of people calling for radical change because domestic rugby in the celtic nations has fallen so far behind England.

Why would you pay top rate as a sponsor for basically the french league against the English and Leinster and Munster? What does the Championship make per year as that would be what your club would be getting in the 2nd tier; not sure you would be wanting to bite someones hand off for moving to a lesser league for less money? Your final point, so why would the English clubs want to risk dropping out of their top tier where they make good money?

Hopefully with the regions getting themselves in order it will help the league. I can't see the English getting too far ahead as there is only so much tv are willing to pay with only a 100k watching each game. From the Provinces point of view, I think we can easily compete with them.

The French on the other hand... They are the real worry but they can also only have a certain amount of foreign players in their squad and they love their SH players

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Why would you pay top rate as a sponsor for basically the french league against the English and Leinster and Munster? What does the Championship make per year as that would be what your club would be getting in the 2nd tier; not sure you would be wanting to bite someones hand off for moving to a lesser league for less money? Your final point, so why would the English clubs want to risk dropping out of their top tier where they make good money?

But it wouldn't be the Championship. It would be the 2nd tier British and Irish League. Yes it would be less money but more than now. The teams at the bottom of the current championship are semi pro.

Anyway, my model is based on a single tier approach with conferences. You'd know this if you'd read it. But I'd take the 2 tier approach.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And who would be the teams who lose out because of it as despite your other suggestion any 2nd tier would be the very poor cousin. How much money would be lost from Europe as it'll be a reduction of teams competing or a very very big step down in quality. Why would the English clubs vote to lose money themselves?

Why would there be money lost from Europe?

As I've said countless times, I'd bite your hand off for my team to start in the 2nd tier with Dragons, Wasps, Harlequins, Blues, Connacht, Worcester, Newcastle etc.

I genuinely can't wait to revisit these threads in circa 3 years time when there are loads of people calling for radical change because domestic rugby in the celtic nations has fallen so far behind England.

So you'd love to be in a 2nd Tier competition, out of sight and out of mind of the media and biggest sponsors, getting perhaps 1 or 2 million more a year thrown at you than present, and watching English sides rule in the new League and represent you in Europe?

Grand.  Everyone has their own priorities and desires.  That's not remotely what I'd consider a success story five or six years into your prospective future.

SecretFly wrote:

So you'd love to be in a 2nd Tier competition, out of sight and out of mind of the media and biggest sponsors, getting perhaps 1 or 2 million more a year thrown at you than present, and watching English sides rule in the new League and represent you in Europe?

Why would the English sides rule in the new league? You don't have much faith in your own provinces at all.

So you would raise Pro 12 club money and lower the English clubs basically. Why would the English vote for that? Why would a 2nd tier get more money than the current 2nd tier. Would the Welsh clubs be happy for all their games going to a satellite chanel? I just don't get why you think the English would want to do it?

So you would raise Pro 12 club money and lower the English clubs basically. - No. There would be more money for everyone. Yay.

Why would a 2nd tier get more money than the current 2nd tier. - Because instead of Cornish Pirates v Nottigham you have Gloucester v Cardiff.

Would the Welsh clubs be happy for all their games going to a satellite channel? - I would be.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

So you'd love to be in a 2nd Tier competition, out of sight and out of mind of the media and biggest sponsors, getting perhaps 1 or 2 million more a year thrown at you than present, and watching English sides rule in the new League and represent you in Europe?

Why would the English sides rule in the new league? You don't have much faith in your own provinces at all.

Why are Irish ones 'allegedly' ruling in the Pro12?

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

So you'd love to be in a 2nd Tier competition, out of sight and out of mind of the media and biggest sponsors, getting perhaps 1 or 2 million more a year thrown at you than present, and watching English sides rule in the new League and represent you in Europe?

Why would the English sides rule in the new league? You don't have much faith in your own provinces at all.

Why are Irish ones 'allegedly' ruling in the Pro12?

Because they have their own fans as TMOs, their own fixture times whilst everyone else suffers, and they don't want to change this.

Chunky Norwich wrote:So you would raise Pro 12 club money and lower the English clubs basically. - No. There would be more money for everyone. Yay.

Why would a 2nd tier get more money than the current 2nd tier. -  Because instead of Cornish Pirates v Nottigham you have Gloucester v Cardiff.

Would the Welsh clubs be happy for all their games going to a satellite channel? - I would be.

Gloucester would be happy? You speak for many when you propose this new League, Chunky. But the only one you can truly talk for in terms of satisfaction with a new two tier system is you.

I'd like to hear what a Gloucester fan has to say about Tier 2 against Cardiff Blues.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

So you'd love to be in a 2nd Tier competition, out of sight and out of mind of the media and biggest sponsors, getting perhaps 1 or 2 million more a year thrown at you than present, and watching English sides rule in the new League and represent you in Europe?

Why would the English sides rule in the new league? You don't have much faith in your own provinces at all.

Why are Irish ones 'allegedly' ruling in the Pro12?

Because they have their own fans as TMOs, their own fixture times whilst everyone else suffers, and they don't want to change this.

There you go. Now rush ahead to the future and you'll see the same excuses hit you when contemplating the new way.

Why would there be more money for everyone? There simply wouldn't be.

Why would Gloucester be in the 2nd tier? Why would a sponsor pay for Cardiff vs Jersey?

Why would you be happy to be shown much less on tv?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Why would you be happy to be shown much less on tv?

Because I go to watch my team

I have already said, about 3 times now that I don't favour a 2 tier competition.

You can throw all tis stuff at me as much as you want, but if you are not reading my posts properly there's not much I can do.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

So you'd love to be in a 2nd Tier competition, out of sight and out of mind of the media and biggest sponsors, getting perhaps 1 or 2 million more a year thrown at you than present, and watching English sides rule in the new League and represent you in Europe?

Why would the English sides rule in the new league? You don't have much faith in your own provinces at all.

Why are Irish ones 'allegedly' ruling in the Pro12?

Because they have their own fans as TMOs, their own fixture times whilst everyone else suffers, and they don't want to change this.

I almost wish you would get your British and Irish league so we could run a sweep on how long it would take before we started hearing these things about the English teams if they were winning

Notch wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

So you'd love to be in a 2nd Tier competition, out of sight and out of mind of the media and biggest sponsors, getting perhaps 1 or 2 million more a year thrown at you than present, and watching English sides rule in the new League and represent you in Europe?

Why would the English sides rule in the new league? You don't have much faith in your own provinces at all.

Why are Irish ones 'allegedly' ruling in the Pro12?

Because they have their own fans as TMOs, their own fixture times whilst everyone else suffers, and they don't want to change this.

I almost wish you would get your British and Irish league so we could run a sweep on how long it would take before we started hearing these things about the English teams if they were winning

I hope your wish is granted.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Why would you be happy to be shown much less on tv?

Because I go to watch my team

I have already said, about 3 times now that I don't favour a 2 tier competition.

You can throw all tis stuff at me as much as you want, but if you are not reading my posts properly there's not much I can do.

Im reading them but im still wondering why you feel there ll suddenly be a load more money generated and why English clubs would want to risk what they currently have. They have no need for a different league. No need for risking less money no need to have less control over their own league. Whats in it for the English clubs?

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you would raise Pro 12 club money and lower the English clubs basically. Why would the English vote for that? Why would a 2nd tier get more money than the current 2nd tier. Would the Welsh clubs be happy for all their games going to a satellite chanel? I just don't get why you think the English would want to do it?

The truth is that the English wouldn't vote for it.

If a League of 12 commands £40m then two leagues comprising 24 are going to have to command £80m just to have the AP teams earn what they're earning now. Would bringing the Pro 12 into a B&I league make it twice as appealing to sponsors who are already nearing saturation? The AP would see that jump as being a step too far and there is simply no way they would ever agree. Add in the other teams affiliated to the PRL and the numbers look even worse. There is no point in discussing a B&I League because it simply will never happen.

Regarding the increasing TV money coming the APs way and a potential cap increase it won't really change anything. The recent revelations have shown that some of the top AP teams may have been breaching the cap anyway so calling it legal won't make then any more competitive. What it will do is officially increase the gap to the rest of the teams who couldn't afford an increased cap anyway making the product less attractive - especially if the PRL bring in two more to share the pot.