Pro12 Value - The Facts (continued)

First topic message reminder :

A continuation of Chunky Norwich's original thread:
https://www.606v2.com/t58514-pro12-value-the-facts

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Griff wrote:p.s., what do you mean you're not from Limerick or Cork?  Don't tell me you're disenfranchised!

There are actually 4 other Counties in Munster (AKA De reel six counties)

He's from the same one as Denis Leamy & Alan Quinlan

and Donnacha Ryan and Tommy O'Donnell

... and Griff I'm not disenfranchised. It meant that I don't have family to stay with in Cork or Limerick.

How come no-one ever criticises French teams for resting and rotating to the extent that they do? Is it because people don't realise it happens? Or because it obviously has a completely negligible effect on their revenues? Clermont changed their entire starting 15 against Oyonnax in between the quarters and the semis and who would be surprised if they did the same thing again this weekend?

For me, I don't feel the need to apologise for rotation because it's extremely obvious that its not physically possible for the best players to play at their highest level in every game in the league, Europe and test rugby. After test rugby and Europe has taken it's toll, we're not going to be seeing the star players from Ireland and Wales on a weekly basis for much of the season. The new terms of the Welsh dual contracts are actually less flexible than the IRFUs protocols for managing the game time of internationals so it does feel like throwing stones in glass houses.

I wouldn't criticise the Welsh union or regions for this of course, it's a necessity to manage players workloads across the season in the modern game. Thats an unavoidable reality we have to deal with, not some action that is being taken on purpose. The coaches of the provinces play their best players as much as they are able to, and what's more- the Irish provinces and the Pro12 are far from unique in seeing wide-scale rotation. Fans in Ireland and France get out to support their team regardless of the strength of the opposition, people watch those games on TV regardless- is rotation really a problem for the league?

What seems to be a theme with this thread is that those more likely to complain about the Pro12 are those least successful in it.

ME-109 wrote:What seems to be a theme with this thread is that those more likely to complain about the Pro12 are those least successful in it.

Obviously.

Why would the Irish complain about something that is so lopsidedly advantageous to them?

Chunky Norwich wrote:Not sure if this Mark Orders piece was covered in the last thread:

A LITTLE unfortunate, really, for Leinster chief executive Mick Dawson to tell the Welsh regions what they need to do to enhance the Pro12 at a time when his own province have not exactly been double-underlining the importance of the four-nation competition.

Dawson was quoted as saying the league needs a brand makeover, given the huge TV deals landed by the Top 14 and the Aviva Premiership.

"We need Welsh clubs to make a serious effort to get players back from France and England. We need Scottish clubs to up their game," he said.

Fair enough, but what about Irish provinces fielding their strongest sides?

Last weekend, Leinster didn't let a desperate need for league points prevent them from turning up at Rodney Parade with a team that showed 12 changes from the one that had played in Europe the week before.

It didn't exactly scream out how highly the Pro12 is valued.

Yes, it would be nice to repatriate Welsh exiles.

But there is only so much money in the pot and it isn't altogether certain that it is enough to cover keeping young talent at home as well as bringing the old heads back.

Let's return to Ireland.

The leagues in England and France have a high value partly because the best players play when it matters.

But over Christmas, Jamie Heaslip — six league starts this term — Sean Cronin, Mike Ross, Rob Kearney, Paul O'Connell, Conor Murray and Peter O'Mahony were all absent for the showpiece Munster v Leinster derby under the IRFU's player welfare programme.

What were sponsors and broadcasters to make of that?

For sure, it isn't just the Welsh regions and Scottish provinces who need to work a bit harder.

Seriously? Last time I looked, Glasgow weren't doing too bad - especially for a city where football dominates spectacularly!

Why? Because we have stronger squads and a better organised union and provinces ergo we have relative success.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Seriously? Last time I looked, Glasgow weren't doing too bad - especially for a city where football dominates spectacularly!

Fine, if you're happy wiht the £30m shortfall. You keep trucking on.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Seriously? Last time I looked, Glasgow weren't doing too bad - especially for a city where football dominates spectacularly!

Fine, if you're happy wiht the £30m shortfall. You keep trucking on.

Your happy you don't get paying punters in the gate. You keep trucking on.

Heres a suggestion to Chunky and LD. Instead of wasting your valuable time on here complaining about this that and t'other concerning the Pro12 or adding 1+1 up and getting 3. Why not go and try and get your friends and their friends to go to a Welsh Pro 12 game (possibly try not to have them all going balistic about the ref - not good tv). It might be a start and it might help the Pro 12 a little. It might also help your clubs/regions and you never know you might be able to be competitive in the league and therefore the European competitions. Remember success breeds success.

I like going to games (not as often as I would like) because I like to support Munster. I dont give a fiddlers if the opposition team have their star players starting or not. I do care that Munster put out a relatively strong team at home and hammer two types of $hit out of the opposition.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

ME-109 wrote:What seems to be a theme with this thread is that those more likely to complain about the Pro12 are those least successful in it.

Obviously.
Why would the Irish complain about something that is so lopsidedly advantageous to them?

Ireland don't have any more of an advantage than Wales do - or certainly have no more advantage than Welsh rugby could have if it chose to finance and support the Regions the same way as Ireland does with the Provinces.

Pro12 TV money - Wales get at least as much as anyone else
ERC money - Wales get at least one place guaranteed
6 Nations money - TV money shared equally - Wales should be making at least as much money from Millenium games as Ireland do from Landsdowne Road
AI' s money - Wales get the same TV money and have an extra AI for ticket revenue.
Sponsorship money - Wales has just as much ability to make money from external sponsors as Ireland
Club membership/supporter base - Wales has a lot more clubs than Ireland and a much larger proportion of the population are intersted in rugby outside of the internationals.

Outside of New Zealand, Wales is (possibly was these days) the only country in the world where rugby is the number one sport, where every hamlet, village and town has at least one rugby club, and where nearly all the population have at least a passing interest in rugby 52 weeks of the year.

So what's Ireland's advantage again ?

We're too good apparently

ME-109 wrote:Heres a suggestion to Chunky and LD. Instead of wasting your valuable time on here complaining about  this that and t'other concerning the Pro12 or adding 1+1 up and getting 3. Why not go and try and get your friends and their friends to go to a Welsh Pro 12 game (possibly try not to have them all going balistic about the ref - not good tv). It might be a start and it might help the Pro 12 a little. It might also help your clubs/regions and you never know you might be able to be competitive in the league and therefore the European competitions. Remember success breeds success.

I like going to games (not as often as I would like) because I like to support Munster. I dont give a fiddlers if the opposition team have their star players starting or not. I do care that Munster put out a relatively strong team at home and hammer two types of $hit out of the opposition.

This condescending sh!t is part of the problem too I'm afraid ME. It doesn't help. Speak to people like you wish to be spoken to yourself.

Irish Londoner wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

ME-109 wrote:What seems to be a theme with this thread is that those more likely to complain about the Pro12 are those least successful in it.

Obviously.
Why would the Irish complain about something that is so lopsidedly advantageous to them?

Ireland don't have any more of an advantage than Wales do - or certainly have no more advantage than Welsh rugby could have if it chose to finance and support the Regions the same way as Ireland does with the Provinces.

Pro12 TV money - Wales get at least as much as anyone else
ERC money - Wales get at least one place guaranteed
6 Nations money - TV money shared equally - Wales should be making at least as much money from Millenium games as Ireland do from Landsdowne Road
AI' s money - Wales get the same TV money and have an extra AI for ticket revenue.
Sponsorship money - Wales has just as much ability to make money from external sponsors as Ireland
Club membership/supporter base - Wales has a lot more clubs than Ireland and a much larger proportion of the population are intersted in rugby outside of the internationals.

Outside of New Zealand, Wales is (possibly was these days) the only country in the world where rugby is the number one sport, where every hamlet, village and town has at least one rugby club, and where nearly all the population have at least a passing interest in rugby 52 weeks of the year.

So what's Ireland's advantage again ?

Provinces for a provincial structure. Wales has attempted a provincial structure with clubs. Not Ireland's fault of course. Just what makes a lot of the above more difficult.

What problem...I dont have a problem with the Pro12. All I am saying is what I have seen in this thread (unfortunately) is that it appears to be that the Welsh clubs are not successful which is causing the discussion. Not our problem (both figuratively and legally - unless you want the IRFU to oversee Welsh rugby development).

ME-109 wrote:What problem...I dont have a problem with the Pro12. All I am saying is what I have seen in this thread (unfortunately) is that it appears to be that the Welsh clubs are not successful which is causing the discussion. Not our problem (both figuratively and legally - unless you want the IRFU to oversee Welsh rugby development).

I was talking about the 'problem' on here. 606v2. You're complaining about CN and LD whining and whingeing, and then talk down like you're some rugby demi-god - "why don't you two run along and gather your friends and family together and ....". Doesn't help (606).

We've done this to death for goodness sake.

-Kick off Times (Friday night is rugby night in Ulster, Munster = zero home Sunday kick offs this season)
-Final. In Ireland please. always. to be sure to be sure.
-Ulster fans being TMOs at the Kingspan
-Fixtures. Connacht rarely seem to play other Irish opposition during November or the 6 nations. Let them play against depleted squads to catch up eh? to be sure to be sure.

Irish Londoner wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

ME-109 wrote:What seems to be a theme with this thread is that those more likely to complain about the Pro12 are those least successful in it.

Obviously.
Why would the Irish complain about something that is so lopsidedly advantageous to them?

Ireland don't have any more of an advantage than Wales do - or certainly have no more advantage than Welsh rugby could have if it chose to finance and support the Regions the same way as Ireland does with the Provinces.

Pro12 TV money - Wales get at least as much as anyone else
ERC money - Wales get at least one place guaranteed
6 Nations money - TV money shared equally - Wales should be making at least as much money from Millenium games as Ireland do from Landsdowne Road
AI' s money - Wales get the same TV money and have an extra AI for ticket revenue.
Sponsorship money - Wales has just as much ability to make money from external sponsors as Ireland
Club membership/supporter base - Wales has a lot more clubs than Ireland and a much larger proportion of the population are intersted in rugby outside of the internationals.

Outside of New Zealand, Wales is (possibly was these days) the only country in the world where rugby is the number one sport, where every hamlet, village and town has at least one rugby club, and where nearly all the population have at least a passing interest in rugby 52 weeks of the year.

So what's Ireland's advantage again ?

Spotted another one. "If they chose to finance and support the regions"? Who is they? In Ireland the IRFU is the 'they' and they control the union, the national side and the provinces. That makes things a whole lot easier. In Wales they are separate entities. The WRU does not = the regions. They can fund but they cannot control. We're a half way house, again I suspect due to this attempted provincial structure imposed onto a league set up. Once more, not the fault of Ireland. Just makes the other bits you mention more difficult.

A lot of the time we seem to be getting "do as we do in Ireland". In reality it's not that easy.

ME-109 wrote:What problem...I dont have a problem with the Pro12. All I am saying is what I have seen in this thread (unfortunately) is that it appears to be that the Welsh clubs are not successful which is causing the discussion. Not our problem (both figuratively and legally - unless you want the IRFU to oversee Welsh rugby development).

The Welsh clubs have never been successful in Europe either. But there doesn't appear to be the same angst there.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Seriously? Last time I looked, Glasgow weren't doing too bad - especially for a city where football dominates spectacularly!

Fine, if you're happy wiht the £30m shortfall. You keep trucking on.

Well they're doing ok without it.

And here lies the problem with rugby in general - too many greedy barstewards wanting more and more money all the time.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Seriously? Last time I looked, Glasgow weren't doing too bad - especially for a city where football dominates spectacularly!

Fine, if you're happy wiht the £30m shortfall. You keep trucking on.

Well they're doing ok without it.

And here lies the problem with rugby in general - too many greedy barstewards wanting more and more money all the time.

I hope you feel the same in a few years time.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Seriously? Last time I looked, Glasgow weren't doing too bad - especially for a city where football dominates spectacularly!

Fine, if you're happy wiht the £30m shortfall. You keep trucking on.

Well they're doing ok without it.

And here lies the problem with rugby in general - too many greedy barstewards wanting more and more money all the time.

Didn't Glasgow have an upturn in fortunes when the SRU increased their funding for the pro game?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Seriously? Last time I looked, Glasgow weren't doing too bad - especially for a city where football dominates spectacularly!

Fine, if you're happy wiht the £30m shortfall. You keep trucking on.

Well they're doing ok without it.

And here lies the problem with rugby in general - too many greedy barstewards wanting more and more money all the time.

I hope you feel the same in a few years time.

Well for comparison, Scottish football has suffered big time with regards to money but here I am....still watching it and still enjoying it.

And I'll probably still be around when the feic off giant financial bubble bursts and everything goes back to normal.

Griff wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Seriously? Last time I looked, Glasgow weren't doing too bad - especially for a city where football dominates spectacularly!

Fine, if you're happy wiht the £30m shortfall. You keep trucking on.

Well they're doing ok without it.

And here lies the problem with rugby in general - too many greedy barstewards wanting more and more money all the time.

Didn't Glasgow have an upturn in fortunes when the SRU increased their funding for the pro game?

I would say it helped yes, but unlike say, Toulon, it wasn't the only reason. Plus the amount invested was probably peanuts in comparison to other clubs. But the secret has undoubtedly, been a wise investing of that money on Glasgow's part.

We need Pontypridd in the Pro12. That would sort everything out

Notch wrote:How come no-one ever criticises French teams for resting and rotating to the extent that they do?

What has what the French do, got to do with how we can get better tv and media deals for our league ? This is about us, not the French.

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:How come no-one ever criticises French teams for resting and rotating to the extent that they do?

What has what the French do, got to do with how we can get better tv and media deals for our league ? This is about us, not the French.

I agree. Whatever the French are doing is raking in the greatest domestic pro rugby tv deal in the world

Whatever we are doing is raking in the poorest.

Plus check the state of the Clermont team that was put out. No matter how many changes they are still class.

Griff wrote:

ME-109 wrote:What problem...I dont have a problem with the Pro12. All I am saying is what I have seen in this thread (unfortunately) is that it appears to be that the Welsh clubs are not successful which is causing the discussion. Not our problem (both figuratively and legally - unless you want the IRFU to oversee Welsh rugby development).

I was talking about the 'problem' on here.  606v2.  You're complaining about CN and LD whining and whingeing, and then talk down like you're some rugby demi-god - "why don't you two run along and gather your friends and family together and ....".  Doesn't help (606).

Well you could look at it that way or you could also look at it as being one of the major problems with the Pro 12. The lack of interest from the Welsh public is a big issue, the poor level of the regions is an issue. These would be good starting points to start to improve the pro 12. Its interesting that the Scots discuss their teams performances as a means of improving their goals of increasing interest in Rugby through doing well in the Pro12 and in the European Cup. Something similar with the Irish mostly. Get the people in grow the interest = grow the revenue streams. Also success grows interest. Again not our issue that the Welsh regions are currently struggling.

The discussion around items like BOD not playing in Wales is a straw man argument. Like was said by myself and others I couldnt care less who is playing in the opposition team. Its not what I look for when going to a game.

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:How come no-one ever criticises French teams for resting and rotating to the extent that they do?

What has what the French do, got to do with how we can get better tv and media deals for our league ? This is about us, not the French.

So the French rotate a lot, as much as the Irish provinces have to... and are able to both get fans through the gate and negotiate the largest TV deals. Appreciate there is a different culture surrounding French rugby and they have large squads but it doesn't seem like this is any impediment to their league.

Tbh, it seems that this fuss over rotation is just so something about why the league is less valuable than the English or French leagues can be attributed to the Irish. I think, yes, obviously if we could have test players playing every week that would be better for the league but it's obviously a fantasy in a world where the number of games in a season is higher than what players can realistically play, and the international season runs parallel to the club season.

I'm willing to have the conversation about restructuring the season so test matches don't run concurrently with European club rugby (realistic option), or reducing the number of games so players are able to play in a larger proportion of games (probably not realistic) but I'm not convinced that rotation from all the Pro12 teams is a large factor in the disparity of TV income or even a factor at all. I think it's a straw man argument thats more about trying to artificially share the blame between all four nations.

ME-109 wrote:

Griff wrote:

ME-109 wrote:What problem...I dont have a problem with the Pro12. All I am saying is what I have seen in this thread (unfortunately) is that it appears to be that the Welsh clubs are not successful which is causing the discussion. Not our problem (both figuratively and legally - unless you want the IRFU to oversee Welsh rugby development).

I was talking about the 'problem' on here.  606v2.  You're complaining about CN and LD whining and whingeing, and then talk down like you're some rugby demi-god - "why don't you two run along and gather your friends and family together and ....".  Doesn't help (606).

Well you could look at it that way or you could also look at it as being one of the major problems with the Pro 12. The lack of interest from the Welsh public is a big issue, the poor level of the regions is an issue. These would be good starting points to start to improve the pro 12. Its interesting that the Scots discuss their teams performances as a means of improving their goals of increasing interest in Rugby through doing well in the Pro12 and in the European Cup. Something similar with the Irish mostly. Get the people in grow the interest = grow the revenue streams. Also success grows interest. Again not our issue that the Welsh regions are currently struggling.

The discussion around items like BOD not playing in Wales is a straw man argument. Like was said by myself and others I couldnt care less who is playing in the opposition team. Its not what I look for when going to a game.

I don't mean to sound rude but how is this any different from what is happening in Wales? We're not different in wanting to grow crowds and get success. Do you really think we don't want bigger crowds or success? Leinster used to get pretty low crowds. Lower than the regions for years. Where were the fans then? They seemed to have no interest. So it's a model we'd love to follow. But don't tell me Leinster's growth didnt't come from increased spending and investment. And that's all we're discussing her for Wales - how can we get more funding to invest in growing the teams. Not sure scotland is a great example. Glasgow perhpas have had 2 good seasons, crowd wise, and before that were lower than all the regions. I wouldn't say they're any more successful than the Ospreys, for example. So which bits of Glagow's development should Ospreys be looking to emulate? Genuine question. Edinburgh, apart form a few Euro games, still have lower crowds than the regions. And there are only two teams in support in Scotland, both in massive cities. So I think this is looking very short term at 'success'. You've not always been sucessful at selling out our crowds, and Scottish teams have not always been at these dizzy heights. Same with the Welsh.

Oh goodie - the continuing debate.

I would agree that the viewpoint/decision of the provinces to treat the league as a development league in favour of participating in the European Cup has devalued the Pro12 in the past.

Most of the provinces would agree that was how they viewed the league up until last season.  Since qualification came in last season (Top 6), that view has changed, in my view, and the Irish provinces have had to compete more fiercely to deal with that.  The most notable of the four being Connacht, in my view.

Lord Dowlais argues that the Irish provinces should be playing their best players in the league all the time.    Whilst this may seem a fair comment on the face of it, he doesn't propose how this would be done.

The Irish set-up is different in a number of important respects compared to the Welsh, Scottish and Italian teams.   All of their international squad (bar one) play for the provinces in Ireland and in the Pro12.   And next season, 100% of them will.   Thus, whilst the Welsh clubs (and their fans) might demand that Irish provinces should field all of their internationals in every league game, currently, all of the Welsh international squad do not play in every Pro12 game - and cannot.

Secondly, if all of the internationals play in every league game, then how do Irish provinces develop other academy players?   The Welsh regions have the advantage of the LV Cup competition to blood some of their newer players, and also do so in their Pro12 games, because some of their international players are not hogging spots in the regional teams - they're being paid to play in other leagues.  This is also true to a lesser extent for the Scottish and Italian clubs.  

In a sense, 6-7 clubs are involved in the continuing development of International players each from Wales, Scotland and Italy.  Ireland, by contrast of its policy, is limited to four, and for most of them, just three provinces.

Leinster and Munster have traditionally supplied the bulk of the national squad.   Thus anytime internationals are being playerd, then those two are the most affected.  And in Leinster's case, markedly so in recent seasons.

The Player Management/Welfare Programme operated by the IRFU restricts the amount of game time a certain cohort of players play each season.  This is the biggest single factor in the unavailability of players for Pro12 games.  In addition, because of their continuing success in reaching the later stages of the European competitions, it is inevitable that a coach will want to have his best players available for those games.   And that means inevitably, that they can't play all of the league games.

I make that last point because with the advent of dual contracting for Welsh players, the regions will begin to experience the same issues with their top players (Welsh qualified) as player management restrictions imposed by WRU take hold - not that they don't already for some.

It is also untrue to say that the top English players play every week in the Premiership - they don't.  Members of the EPS are also subject to restrictions of the amount  of game time they play.  

For example, Chris Robshaw who would be regarded as a top English player, played in Rounds 1-6 of the Premiership, then didn't play for rounds 7-12 including the Christmas match referenced in context of Leinster/Munster, came back for Round 13, and then didn't play for rounds 14-17.   So that's 10 matches out of 19 rounds that Chris Robshaw has not played in the Premiership this season.  
Edit: Billy Vuniploa didn't play in 9 Premiership games.  And Alex Goode has only missed 7 games (less international commitments possibly?)

Rob Kearney, cited above, didn't play in 13 matches out of 19 Pro 12 rounds.  He has played in two extra European cup games.
Jamie Heaslip (who Mark Orders said has only 6 league starts this term), actually had 8 starts and one bench - so he missed 11 games.

So what about Welsh top players playing all the time in the Pro12?

Leigh Halfpenny - zero games
Jonathan Davies - zero games
Dan Biggar - missed 8 games to date
Rhys Webb - missed 10 games to date.

I'm sure there are other examples to be picked, but that's a random sample, purposely referenced against an Irish player.

Good summary of Lord Dowlais' points their Pot Hale. No mention of the numerous Welsh posters who disagree with him on squad rotation, and have done on this thread. Don't lump us all in together.

Griff wrote:Good summary of Lord Dowlais' points their Pot Hale.  No mention of the numerous Welsh posters who disagree with him on squad rotation, and have done on this thread.  Don't lump us all in together.

Thanks Griff. However, I haven't summarised Lord Dowlais' points, nor have I lumped all the Welsh posters together. I only mentioned one poster's oft-stated viewpoint.

Pot Hale wrote:

Griff wrote:Good summary of Lord Dowlais' points their Pot Hale.  No mention of the numerous Welsh posters who disagree with him on squad rotation, and have done on this thread.  Don't lump us all in together.

Thanks Griff.  However, I haven't summarised Lord Dowlais' points, nor have I lumped all the Welsh posters together.  I only mentioned one poster's oft-stated viewpoint.

Excellent. As long as that is clear for ALL other posters. Otherwise we have another bun fight. THE WELSH ARE NOT BLAMING THE IRISH FOR DEMEANING THE LEAGUE BY ROTATING PLAYERS. Lord Dowlais is.

Griff wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Griff wrote:Good summary of Lord Dowlais' points their Pot Hale.  No mention of the numerous Welsh posters who disagree with him on squad rotation, and have done on this thread.  Don't lump us all in together.

Thanks Griff.  However, I haven't summarised Lord Dowlais' points, nor have I lumped all the Welsh posters together.  I only mentioned one poster's oft-stated viewpoint.

Excellent.  As long as that is clear for ALL other posters.  Otherwise we have another bun fight.  THE WELSH ARE NOT BLAMING THE IRISH FOR DEMEANING THE LEAGUE BY ROTATING PLAYERS.  Lord Dowlais is.

Excellent. Because I would agree with LD. In fact, I would go further. I think the decision of the Welsh regions on rotating and resting players has also devalued the league - because they have other priorities too. I would not apply it to the Scottish or Italian teams however.

I think now that we have European qualification attached to league performance there is a good chance we may start seeing the best players in the league more regular. If anything its more likely now that teams that stand no chance of progressing in the main European tournament may start fielding less star names when they cannot qualify. I've always maintained Pro 12 sides got screwed in the re-structure because we basically fielded our best teams in the old HC. I just don't see the need if a side for example know it wont qualify now which the English and French have been doing for ages especially when you look at the 4-6 ranked qualifiers from France and England after round 3. Rarely have we seen French and English sides field anything near their best sides if they have no chance of qualifying, instead refocusing on their respective leagues. I see the same happening in the Pro 12 in the near future. I think that will probably result in a worse European pool stage but an improvement to the league.

I'd also add getting away wins in the Pro12 have been difficult this year. Knowing that a top international is likely to only appear 8-10 times in the league it stands to reason that teams wont send them away on difficult away matches and keep them for home games so their home fans get to see them in action, which makes sense to be fair.

Welshmushroom wrote:I think now that we have European qualification attached to league performance there is a good chance we may start seeing the best players in the league more regular.  If anything its more likely now that teams that stand no chance of progressing in the main European tournament may start fielding less star names when they cannot qualify.  I've always maintained Pro 12 sides got screwed in the re-structure because we basically fielded our best teams in the old HC.  I just don't see the need if a side for example know it wont qualify now which the English and French have been doing for ages especially when you look at the 4-6 ranked qualifiers from France and England after round 3.  Rarely have we seen French and English sides field anything near their best sides if they have no chance of qualifying, instead refocusing on their respective leagues.  I see the same happening in the Pro 12 in the near future.  I think that will probably result in a worse European pool stage but an improvement to the league.

I'd also add getting away wins in the Pro12 have been difficult this year.  Knowing that a top international is likely to only appear 8-10 times in the league it stands to reason that teams wont send them away on difficult away matches and keep them for home games so their home fans get to see them in action, which makes sense to be fair.

Fair observations re seeing more of best players in Pro12. However, unless coaches have crystal balls to hand, they're not going to know how the season pans out, and they will have to comply with player management union rules - witness Irish provincial coaches complaints about the system this season - particularly Matt O'Connor!

I can recall Pro12 sides not fielding their strongest sides in European comps once they knew they weren't going to qualify for knockouts. Don't think it's just French/English sides.

Pot Hale wrote:

Griff wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Griff wrote:Good summary of Lord Dowlais' points their Pot Hale.  No mention of the numerous Welsh posters who disagree with him on squad rotation, and have done on this thread.  Don't lump us all in together.

Thanks Griff.  However, I haven't summarised Lord Dowlais' points, nor have I lumped all the Welsh posters together.  I only mentioned one poster's oft-stated viewpoint.

Excellent.  As long as that is clear for ALL other posters.  Otherwise we have another bun fight.  THE WELSH ARE NOT BLAMING THE IRISH FOR DEMEANING THE LEAGUE BY ROTATING PLAYERS.  Lord Dowlais is.

Excellent.  Because I would agree with LD.  In fact, I would go further.  I think the decision of the Welsh regions on rotating and resting players has also devalued the league - because they have other priorities too.   I would not apply it to the Scottish or Italian teams however.

I can't comment on the Italians as it would be a guess. But I know the Scottish teams rest players. So I don't understand your point. It seems... Odd.

Griff wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Griff wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Griff wrote:Good summary of Lord Dowlais' points their Pot Hale.  No mention of the numerous Welsh posters who disagree with him on squad rotation, and have done on this thread.  Don't lump us all in together.

Thanks Griff.  However, I haven't summarised Lord Dowlais' points, nor have I lumped all the Welsh posters together.  I only mentioned one poster's oft-stated viewpoint.

Excellent.  As long as that is clear for ALL other posters.  Otherwise we have another bun fight.  THE WELSH ARE NOT BLAMING THE IRISH FOR DEMEANING THE LEAGUE BY ROTATING PLAYERS.  Lord Dowlais is.

Excellent.  Because I would agree with LD.  In fact, I would go further.  I think the decision of the Welsh regions on rotating and resting players has also devalued the league - because they have other priorities too.   I would not apply it to the Scottish or Italian teams however.

I can't comment on the Italians as it would be a guess. But I know the Scottish teams rest players. So I don't understand your point. It seems... Odd.

Less teams, smaller pool of players, less finances, far more restricted.

Pot Hale wrote:

Griff wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Griff wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Griff wrote:Good summary of Lord Dowlais' points their Pot Hale.  No mention of the numerous Welsh posters who disagree with him on squad rotation, and have done on this thread.  Don't lump us all in together.

Thanks Griff.  However, I haven't summarised Lord Dowlais' points, nor have I lumped all the Welsh posters together.  I only mentioned one poster's oft-stated viewpoint.

Excellent.  As long as that is clear for ALL other posters.  Otherwise we have another bun fight.  THE WELSH ARE NOT BLAMING THE IRISH FOR DEMEANING THE LEAGUE BY ROTATING PLAYERS.  Lord Dowlais is.

Excellent.  Because I would agree with LD.  In fact, I would go further.  I think the decision of the Welsh regions on rotating and resting players has also devalued the league - because they have other priorities too.   I would not apply it to the Scottish or Italian teams however.

I can't comment on the Italians as it would be a guess. But I know the Scottish teams rest players. So I don't understand your point. It seems... Odd.

Less teams, smaller pool of players, less finances, far more restricted.

But they're still rotating players (which is not a problem. I'm all for it. It's a necessity in this sport). They have other priorities too and rightly rotate. Not sure how they're exuded from the resting players discussion. Seems a bit unfair on them!

And, less finances? But less teams. Doesn't necessarily = less finance per team.

Griff wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

Griff wrote:

ME-109 wrote:What problem...I dont have a problem with the Pro12. All I am saying is what I have seen in this thread (unfortunately) is that it appears to be that the Welsh clubs are not successful which is causing the discussion. Not our problem (both figuratively and legally - unless you want the IRFU to oversee Welsh rugby development).

I was talking about the 'problem' on here.  606v2.  You're complaining about CN and LD whining and whingeing, and then talk down like you're some rugby demi-god - "why don't you two run along and gather your friends and family together and ....".  Doesn't help (606).

Well you could look at it that way or you could also look at it as being one of the major problems with the Pro 12. The lack of interest from the Welsh public is a big issue, the poor level of the regions is an issue. These would be good starting points to start to improve the pro 12. Its interesting that the Scots discuss their teams performances as a means of improving their goals of increasing interest in Rugby through doing well in the Pro12 and in the European Cup. Something similar with the Irish mostly. Get the people in grow the interest = grow the revenue streams. Also success grows interest. Again not our issue that the Welsh regions are currently struggling.

The discussion around items like BOD not playing in Wales is a straw man argument. Like was said by myself and others I couldnt care less who is playing in the opposition team. Its not what I look for when going to a game.

I don't mean to sound rude but how is this any different from what is happening in Wales? We're not different in wanting to grow crowds and get success. Do you really think we don't want bigger crowds or success? Leinster used to get pretty low crowds. Lower than the regions for years. Where were the fans then? They seemed to have no interest. So it's a model we'd love to follow. But don't tell me Leinster's growth didnt't come from increased spending and investment. And that's all we're discussing her for Wales - how can we get more funding to invest in growing the teams. Not sure scotland is a great example. Glasgow perhpas have had 2 good seasons, crowd wise, and before that were lower than all the regions. I wouldn't say they're any more successful than the Ospreys, for example. So which bits of Glagow's development should Ospreys be looking to emulate? Genuine question. Edinburgh, apart form a few Euro games, still have lower crowds than the regions. And there are only two teams in support in Scotland, both in massive cities. So I think this is looking very short term at 'success'. You've not always been sucessful at selling out our crowds, and Scottish teams have not always been at these dizzy heights. Same with the Welsh.

You are incorrect here. First of all Leinster started to show some consistency and started winning and guess what their crowds grew (plus they couldnt stand some bunch of Culchies to the South doing better than them) then Leinster identified a business model in terms of growing their Season ticket holders and also marketed the Friday night games (specifically) in the RDS. The season ticket growth came from them allowing the public purchase both Pro12 and Heineken/European cup tickets and not limiting them to the clubs (affiliated to the province). As for Glasgow and Edinburgh after a rocky start they are making inroads and starting to grow in Glasgows case its because of their relative success and consistency at the moment.

BTW am sure they spent some money on marketing etc but there was a latent demand that they tapped into. Wales surely has the same latent demand (or is this a big myth)?

Griff wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Griff wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Griff wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Griff wrote:Good summary of Lord Dowlais' points their Pot Hale.  No mention of the numerous Welsh posters who disagree with him on squad rotation, and have done on this thread.  Don't lump us all in together.

Thanks Griff.  However, I haven't summarised Lord Dowlais' points, nor have I lumped all the Welsh posters together.  I only mentioned one poster's oft-stated viewpoint.

Excellent.  As long as that is clear for ALL other posters.  Otherwise we have another bun fight.  THE WELSH ARE NOT BLAMING THE IRISH FOR DEMEANING THE LEAGUE BY ROTATING PLAYERS.  Lord Dowlais is.

Excellent.  Because I would agree with LD.  In fact, I would go further.  I think the decision of the Welsh regions on rotating and resting players has also devalued the league - because they have other priorities too.   I would not apply it to the Scottish or Italian teams however.

I can't comment on the Italians as it would be a guess. But I know the Scottish teams rest players. So I don't understand your point. It seems... Odd.

Less teams, smaller pool of players, less finances, far more restricted.

But they're still rotating players (which is not a problem. I'm all for it. It's a necessity in this sport). They have other priorities too and rightly rotate. Not sure how they're exuded from the resting players discussion. Seems a bit unfair on them!

And, less finances? But less teams. Doesn't necessarily = less finance per team.

Okay let me put it another way - less delicately.

If there is value to be derived from TV broadcasters paying more for a league that fields its best players more frequently, then I don't think they will be scrutinising the Scottish and Italian sides as much as the Welsh or Irish ones when it comes to making a decision. The Welsh and Irish sides contain players that have won European cups and Six Nations titles. And if the Pro12 organisers want to tap TV broadcasters within the UK market, then I'd reckon that's what they would focus on. However, I've argued elsewhere that bringing in some of the English clubs who will be inevitably outside the ringfence of the Premiership might be a good tactical move too in building its appeal and value in the long-term.

What do you mean by latent demand? Do you mean a market or demand for rugby out there in Wales somewhere?

Griff wrote:What do you mean by latent demand? Do you mean a market or demand for rugby out there in Wales somewhere?

Demand for rugby....specifically club/regional rugby

Pot Hale wrote:

Griff wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Griff wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Griff wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Griff wrote:Good summary of Lord Dowlais' points their Pot Hale.  No mention of the numerous Welsh posters who disagree with him on squad rotation, and have done on this thread.  Don't lump us all in together.

Thanks Griff.  However, I haven't summarised Lord Dowlais' points, nor have I lumped all the Welsh posters together.  I only mentioned one poster's oft-stated viewpoint.

Excellent.  As long as that is clear for ALL other posters.  Otherwise we have another bun fight.  THE WELSH ARE NOT BLAMING THE IRISH FOR DEMEANING THE LEAGUE BY ROTATING PLAYERS.  Lord Dowlais is.

Excellent.  Because I would agree with LD.  In fact, I would go further.  I think the decision of the Welsh regions on rotating and resting players has also devalued the league - because they have other priorities too.   I would not apply it to the Scottish or Italian teams however.

I can't comment on the Italians as it would be a guess. But I know the Scottish teams rest players. So I don't understand your point. It seems... Odd.

Less teams, smaller pool of players, less finances, far more restricted.

But they're still rotating players (which is not a problem. I'm all for it. It's a necessity in this sport). They have other priorities too and rightly rotate. Not sure how they're exuded from the resting players discussion. Seems a bit unfair on them!

And, less finances? But less teams. Doesn't necessarily = less finance per team.

Okay let me put it another way - less delicately.

If there is value to be derived from TV broadcasters paying more for a league that fields its best players more frequently, then I don't think they will be scrutinising the Scottish and Italian sides as much as the Welsh or Irish ones when it comes to making a decision.  The Welsh and Irish sides contain players that have won European cups and Six Nations titles.  And if the Pro12 organisers want to tap TV broadcasters within the UK market, then I'd reckon that's what they would focus on.  However, I've argued elsewhere that bringing in some of the English clubs who will be inevitably outside the ringfence of the Premiership might be a good tactical move too in building its appeal and value in the long-term.

Back to the original point. I don't personally believe that the Irish or Welsh (or any nation) rotating or resting players devalues the league to broadcasters. You have stated that you do think the Welsh and Irish doing so devalues the league. Let's just let our opposing opinions stay as that, as I don't think we'll ever agree on it! But I respect your right to that opinion

Looking at the signings for next season I cant help but think Treviso & Zebre are already looking to strengthen so clearly the row with the Italian federation has not been put to bed. Last year there was a lot of bad blood between the teams and their union and it looked like they would end their affiliation with the Pro12.

I'm glad they have put that behind them now because given stability and a few years to develop their systems they could easily do what Scotland managed in terms of league success.

ME-109 wrote:

Griff wrote:What do you mean by latent demand? Do you mean a market or demand for rugby out there in Wales somewhere?

Demand for rugby....specifically club/regional rugby

OK. Well, I think there's huge demand for the national game and that is confirmed by good wales attendances and demand (70,000 in an empty stadium to watch wales play France in the world cup on the other side of the world!). However, as ive said many times before the attendances at clubs pre regional ruglby wasn't much bigger than now. Newport was getting maybe 7 or 8 thousand, plus you must remember that there would have been a lot of travelling fans (in the welsh prem) which we don't get now. So no, I don't think the demand is really there over and above what we've got now. It never has been really. Maybe a few thousand more each, which would still be a great boost. But no I don't think the club game has that latent demand like the international team. See, ive always argued that population could/should/does influence attendance. I can't back this up with facts as there's always exceptions to the rule. But maybe 6 - 10k is a decent crowd size for a country with a 3 million population and few travelling fans? Maybe not. Who knows. But it doesn't seem that logical that we should be getting 20k crowds when cities 10 times the size in terms of population are only getting that themselves.

Griff wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Griff wrote:Good summary of Lord Dowlais' points their Pot Hale.  No mention of the numerous Welsh posters who disagree with him on squad rotation, and have done on this thread.  Don't lump us all in together.

Thanks Griff.  However, I haven't summarised Lord Dowlais' points, nor have I lumped all the Welsh posters together.  I only mentioned one poster's oft-stated viewpoint.

Excellent.  As long as that is clear for ALL other posters.  Otherwise we have another bun fight.  THE WELSH ARE NOT BLAMING THE IRISH FOR DEMEANING THE LEAGUE BY ROTATING PLAYERS.  Lord Dowlais is.

Right Griff, this is the second time you have accused me of saying things that are not true on this thread, and this time I want an apology.

I have said from day one on this debate that we are all to blame, so please stop saying any different, if you want to side with the Irish on here, who think they are blameless then so be it, but none of us are blameless, and there is not one time when the Irish on here have accepted any part of any blame in this debate and it says more about them than anything else.

I think the Pro12 is actually a top product. Some of the games on Sky this year have been absolute screamers. I love the diversity of the league. The Italians have added to it as well and I quite look forward to seeing players I know little about in action within the league.

League contributes to a substantial amount of 6 nations representation & lions squads. Now if the irish, welsh, Scottish & Italians could get together and get some kind of blood hound like McCafferty involved to exploit that fact we would be rolling in cash

Seriously though - I've really enjoyed the rugby and diversity our league has to offer. Its developing every year. Great destinations for fans as well given the locations of the teams. Plenty of holiday options there as well.

LordDowlais wrote:

Griff wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Griff wrote:Good summary of Lord Dowlais' points their Pot Hale.  No mention of the numerous Welsh posters who disagree with him on squad rotation, and have done on this thread.  Don't lump us all in together.

Thanks Griff.  However, I haven't summarised Lord Dowlais' points, nor have I lumped all the Welsh posters together.  I only mentioned one poster's oft-stated viewpoint.

Excellent.  As long as that is clear for ALL other posters.  Otherwise we have another bun fight.  THE WELSH ARE NOT BLAMING THE IRISH FOR DEMEANING THE LEAGUE BY ROTATING PLAYERS.  Lord Dowlais is.

Right Griff, this is the second time you have accused me of saying things that are not true on this thread, and this time I want an apology.

I have said from day one on this debate that we are all to blame, so please stop saying any different, if you want to side with the Irish on here, who think they are blameless then so be it, but none of us are blameless, and there is not one time when the Irish on here have accepted any part of any blame in this debate and it says more about them than anything else.

But you have been saying that the Irish resting players is damaging the league. Be honest. I haven't seen any other Welsh posters saying this. So I'm correct in my point.