West Indies vs England, Barbados - Friday 1st May to Tuesday 5th May

First topic message reminder :

With England having taken an unexpected (at start of day) lead in Grenada we move to Bridgetown for the last match of the tour. Team selection will be interesting, though I do expect England to select the same team.

Good arguments can be made for giving Lyth a chance to open, while by and large the bowlers have not looked overly threatening. This is demonstrated by the four different centurions WI have had, plus some good late partnerships.

WI may well have Taylor back. Holder has been the least impressive of the Windies seam bowlers, but his batting will be valued. Bishoo bowled well, but had to bowl too many overs in Englands first innings due to lack of options. Perhaps Taylor could return for a batsmen. If so whom? Blackwood has a century, but also some brainless cricket, so the old man Chanderpaul could be the most vulnerable. It woudl be a shame if his career was to end like this - but Phil Simmons will not allow sympathy or emotion to drive his selections.

If the weather holds could be a fascinating clash.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Olly wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:West Indies now favourites. How bad would a 1-1 draw of the series be for England if that is how it turns out?

Thoughts?

Not great Craig - really not very good, this west Indies side is very poor (and that's before all the chopping and changing they've had to do this series due to injury/poor form)

Still think there is a few twists left yet

I am no expert but the worrying factor listening to more knowledgable posters on here is that this set of players are the best available and there are no other go to options (aside from the likes of Plunkett, Finn, Woakes). That has to be the concern that it appears that the players available just aren't good enough.

Christopher Woakes is the answer #faithintheWoakes #believe

Buttler will be having nightmares abut that missed stumping.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Olly wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:West Indies now favourites. How bad would a 1-1 draw of the series be for England if that is how it turns out?

Thoughts?

Not great Craig - really not very good, this west Indies side is very poor (and that's before all the chopping and changing they've had to do this series due to injury/poor form)

Still think there is a few twists left yet

I am no expert but the worrying factor listening to more knowledgable posters on here is that this set of players are the best available and there are no other go to options (aside from the likes of Plunkett, Finn, Woakes). That has to be the concern that it appears that the players available just aren't good enough.

The right opening partner for Cook and the right spinner would be a big help. For the former, there are definite contenders and thus possibly a solution. The latter is more difficult. Moeen did very well last summer but I always felt he was flattered by Indian ineptitude. We've almost been obligated to pick him for the last two Tests; although I wouldn't have done so, I appreciate why we did. Difficult decisions now to be faced concerning Moeen and any possible replacement. My vote would again go to Tredwell. That's admittedly safe but I don't see that as wrong, particularly if there's a suitable mix with the other ten in the team.

Congrats West Indies.

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Congrats West Indies.

What for?

The spinner is a developmental thing, that is what Moeen is at this stage. He's learning his craft, and he has potential to be good.

I don't agree with chucking him aside after he's been chucked in straight from an injury with no cricket - especially for someone in Tredwell who isn't in my eyes 1) one for the future or 2) better than Moeen in the test arena.

The opening partner for cook is tough now, going to debut against Boult and Southee followed by the array of Mitchell's. I'd quite like to have seen them persist with Sam Robson personally

guildfordbat wrote:

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Congrats West Indies.

What for?

Winning the test. Thought I'd get my congratulations in early.......or possibly jinx them.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/32037349

"Hey Peter, it's Colin here...."

Olly, Moeen just isn't a very good spinner, development stage or not it really doesn't matter and I would much rather see Tredwell play who can at least instil some control.

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Congrats West Indies.

What for?

Winning the test. Thought I'd get my congratulations in early.......or possibly jinx them.

Hoggy - no wonder all the Brummie football teams get relegated if you folk chuck the towel in so early!

Olly wrote:http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/32037349

"Hey Peter, it's Colin here...."

guildfordbat wrote:Alfie - you able to stay with the last session and us? Hope so.

Other than that one expensive over immediately after tea, Root doing a good job. However, I can't but help feel the situation is even better suited to ''my man'' Tredwell who would have stayed in my team for the second Test and in all likelihood this one. Ah well, the trials and tribulations of an armchair selector ....

Ah , sadly , guildford , I couldn't...had to grab a couple of hours kip...

Waking to see West Indies have it in the bag.  Just couldn't get that fifth wicket , eh ?  Must say I'm a little surprised they have got there (or nearly there ) so comfortably - I wouldn't have expected Bravo to do so well , especially after his dreadful batting yesterday.
The thought that Tredwell might have been handy did occur to me. But really ; it was three hours of awful batting that did it , no ? Classic case of losing a match in a session ...

guildfordbat wrote:

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Congrats West Indies.

What for?

Winning the test. Thought I'd get my congratulations in early.......or possibly jinx them.

Hoggy - no wonder all the Brummie football teams get relegated if you folk chuck the towel in so early!

Unfortunately there's one Brummie team that always seems to narrowly avoid relegation. Maybe not this season though, with a bit of luck.

West Indies just 13 away. There is another 5 overs remaining in the day.

Impressed by the way this pair have gone about this. They have kept their head and batted solidly. As for England well this will hurt them. Where did it go wrong? I'd say not being more aggressive with the bat in both innings. We have seen from Blackwood (first innings) and England's tail in second innings and this pair that playing your shots was the way to play and not play negatively.

Think we can join with Hoggy in congratulations to West Indies.

Though Bravo can't quite see it through...

Bravo wanted to finish it off this over, but he's hold out with the target 4 runs away.
But this really was a classy innings!.

Maybe there's hope yet

Olly wrote:The spinner is a developmental thing, that is what Moeen is at this stage. He's learning his craft, and he has potential to be good.

I don't agree with chucking him aside after he's been chucked in  straight from an injury with no cricket - especially for someone in Tredwell who isn't in my eyes 1) one for the future or 2) better than Moeen in the test arena.

The opening partner for cook is tough now, going to debut against Boult and Southee followed by the array of Mitchell's. I'd quite like to have seen them persist with Sam Robson personally

Olly - re 1). You don't always have to pick ''for the future''. There's nothing wrong with ''the here and now'', particularly if there's a suitable mix in the team.
Re 2). I don't agree but in the words of Alec Stewart, ''It's a game of opinions, sir.''

Robson scored 178 for Middlesex yesterday against Durham so he's keeping himself in contention at least.

Another 2 more for the West Indies!.
And they've done it!!. Blackwood!.

Well played to the Windies. They seem to be heading in the right direction at last. Good coaching team in Ambrose and Simmons and they seem to be instilling some steel into their youngsters which is good to see. Some decent youngsters coming through and a base to start off with.

For England well they let this one slip through their fingers through poor selections, too passive when batting in both innings and lacking a frontline spinner. Work to be done in the personnel department then for the summer.

guildfordbat wrote:

Olly wrote:The spinner is a developmental thing, that is what Moeen is at this stage. He's learning his craft, and he has potential to be good.

I don't agree with chucking him aside after he's been chucked in  straight from an injury with no cricket - especially for someone in Tredwell who isn't in my eyes 1) one for the future or 2) better than Moeen in the test arena.

The opening partner for cook is tough now, going to debut against Boult and Southee followed by the array of Mitchell's. I'd quite like to have seen them persist with Sam Robson personally

Olly - re 1). You don't always have to pick ''for the future''. There's nothing wrong with ''the here and now'', particularly if there's a suitable mix in the team.
Re 2). I don't agree but in the words of Alec Stewart, ''It's a game of opinions, sir.''

Robson scored 178 for Middlesex yesterday against Durham so he's keeping himself in contention at least.

I think they were harsh on Robson - scored more runs at a higher average than Cook in tests last summer - got a hundred (think his average was about 32/33) - not standout numbers but a decent start for an opener - problem we have is we expect an opener to come in and do what Strauss did, when in fact that is very rare. They take time to settle as the jump up in class is so much larger, with the margin for error smaller.

Jermaine Blackwood, a man who has had his technique being questioned, made runs in both innings, 85 in the first innings and last man out, and in the 2nd innings seeing the chase through with an unbeaten 47. And he did it on a lively track that has had help for both spin and seam. My undisputed man of the match!.

Well played West Indies - excellent win and some real promise in the side with emerging players like Bravo, Braithwaite, Blackwood and Holder. 

You have to wonder whether they'd have won the series had Jerome Taylor been fit for the 2nd test - he is a very handy opening bowler

CaledonianCraig wrote:Impressed by the way this pair have gone about this. They have kept their head and batted solidly. As for England well this will hurt them. Where did it go wrong? I'd say not being more aggressive with the bat in both innings. We have seen from Blackwood (first innings) and England's tail in second innings and this pair that playing your shots was the way to play and not play negatively.

A bit of that . Though didn't several players get out doing just that ? I'd have said nervous , indecisive batting...once a couple of early wickets fell it seemed to me a bit of panic set in.

Truth is , apart from the opener problem , the batting after Root is just not as assured as it looks on paper. And actually this is all the new boys ; so I am not sure changing the old guard (apart from Trott of course - he has to go) offers an instant solution.

Opener , spinner , third seamer. And number six bat , really - though I guess he will have to be one of those as well...
Answers on the back of an envelope...

Seems everyone here think Trott would be dropped for the next game. If they remain with the same team management, I must say I won't be surprised if he would be striding out with Cook to face up to Southee and Boult for the next test!.

Just seen someone tweet that Gillespie turned down the South Australia job yesterday. Colin Graves, his ex chairman, takes over at the ECB soon... Straw clutching?!

msp83 wrote:Jermaine Blackwood, a man who has had his technique being questioned, made runs in both innings, 85 in the first innings and last man out, and in the 2nd innings seeing the chase through with an unbeaten 47. And he did it on a lively track that has had help for both spin and seam. My undisputed man of the match!.

Fair call. I thought he was the man England should fear ( wasn't expecting Bravo !) I reckon he has got something

Be interesting to see how he goes against Australia.

Perhaps England can look at an offspinner with South African roots to come in for Ali!? The plus is, that he can bat a bit as well!.

alfie wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:Alfie - you able to stay with the last session and us? Hope so.

Other than that one expensive over immediately after tea, Root doing a good job. However, I can't but help feel the situation is even better suited to ''my man'' Tredwell who would have stayed in my team for the second Test and in all likelihood this one. Ah well, the trials and tribulations of an armchair selector ....

Ah , sadly , guildford , I couldn't...had to grab a couple of hours kip...

Waking to see West Indies have it in the bag.  Just couldn't get that  fifth wicket , eh ?  Must say I'm a little surprised they have got there (or nearly there ) so comfortably - I wouldn't have expected Bravo to do so well , especially after his dreadful batting yesterday.
The thought that Tredwell might have been handy did occur to me. But really ; it was three hours of awful batting that did it , no ? Classic case of losing a match in a session ...

You're on the money there, Alfie. An awful batting performance second dig from England. I wasn't suggesting Tredders would have then turned the match on its head (that's not his game) but he would/might have been very useful in keeping it tight and building pressure.

Don't know if you were still with us but Buttler missed a chance to stump Blackwood off Root - that could just have made a difference. However, I never felt we had quite enough despite Craig's creditable attempts to persuade me and others otherwise.

''Very embarrassing'' - Bob Willis. Quite possibly but a lot of credit is also due to the West Indies. They're not the side they were 30 years ago and never will be but they're not to be written off as so many were doing only recently. I'm at least pleased about that.

JDizzle wrote:Just seen someone tweet that Gillespie turned down the South Australia job yesterday. Colin Graves, his ex chairman, takes over at the ECB soon... Straw clutching?!

Yorkshire Mafia taking over ?

Drop Trott, Ali and Stokes, bring in Pietersen, Lyth and Tredwell.

I hope Moores goes. Frankly there are very very few positives coming from his 2nd go. This isn't a side on the way up.

A WC debacle, and now a drawn series against the 8th ranked test side, a side the ECB incoming head called mediocre. What would happen to Peter Moores?
Well, if Andrew Strauss is the new director/public relations manager/whatever, then I wouldn't say he would yet be packing.......

I keep waiting for a sign that the turnaround is coming.

It isn't.

New regime and new direction please.

The first NZ Test is 18 days away. Christ.

JDizzle wrote:Just seen someone tweet that Gillespie turned down the South Australia job yesterday. Colin Graves, his ex chairman, takes over at the ECB soon... Straw clutching?!

We can only hope JD, we can only hope. 

Peter Moores may be the best county coach of his generation - but he don't cut the mustard at the international level. Time to cut loose to give ourselves a hint of a chance against NZ/Aus this summer, let alone SA/in the UAE this winter

Olly wrote:The spinner is a developmental thing, that is what Moeen is at this stage. He's learning his craft, and he has potential to be good.

I don't agree with chucking him aside after he's been chucked in  straight from an injury with no cricket - especially for someone in Tredwell who isn't in my eyes 1) one for the future or 2) better than Moeen in the test arena.

The opening partner for cook is tough now, going to debut against Boult and Southee followed by the array of Mitchell's. I'd quite like to have seen them persist with Sam Robson personally

On the spinner I think Moeen's problem is he needs to either prove himself as a player capable of being picked as a top 6 batsmen or a frontline spinner. At the moment he feels very vulnerable as both in the test arena. Except for the occasional seamers paradise I'm a big advocate of picking your three best seamers and best spinner at 8-11. If they offer more with the bat or in the field it is a bonus, an increasingly useful bonus in the modern game, but still a bonus IMO.

People will be calling for Cook to be replaced as captain but it once again comes down the simple question of who replaces him?

GSC wrote:I hope Moores goes. Frankly there are very very few positives coming from his 2nd go. This isn't a side on the way up.

This will probably hasten Moores' departure. To be honest , I never expected him to have a long run in charge ; though I have a feeling he had grasped a poisoned chalice in the first place. Losing a bunch of good players , one way or the other , and having to rebuild , was always fraught with danger in the short term. Not unlike his first time round in some ways ! And he has introduced some new players ; if they develop into winners his record may look a bit better with hindsight.

If he is replaced , I just hope they get the right man for the job. Changing for the sake of change never appeals to me as a plan...

Every time I think we have hit the bottom - a new layer of hell opens up.

For any old timers - I've just caught a glimpse of Joel Garner on tv. He looks taller and more intimidating than he did thirty years ago!

One hopeful note : last time England lost a Test in the West Indies it was followed by a run of about three years undefeated in series

king_carlos wrote:

Olly wrote:The spinner is a developmental thing, that is what Moeen is at this stage. He's learning his craft, and he has potential to be good.

I don't agree with chucking him aside after he's been chucked in  straight from an injury with no cricket - especially for someone in Tredwell who isn't in my eyes 1) one for the future or 2) better than Moeen in the test arena.

The opening partner for cook is tough now, going to debut against Boult and Southee followed by the array of Mitchell's. I'd quite like to have seen them persist with Sam Robson personally

On the spinner I think Moeen's problem is he needs to either prove himself as a player capable of being picked as a top 6 batsmen or a frontline spinner. At the moment he feels very vulnerable as both in the test arena. Except for the occasional seamers paradise I'm a big advocate of picking your three best seamers and best spinner at 8-11. If they offer more with the bat or in the field it is a bonus, an increasingly useful bonus in the modern game, but still a bonus IMO.

People will be calling for Cook to be replaced as captain but it once again comes down the simple question of who replaces him?

Yes, other than Jason Gillespie (who I thought ruled himself out for family reasons not long ago), very hard to think of a replacement.

LondonTiger wrote:Every time I think we have hit the bottom - a new layer of hell opens up.

You may want to avoid the summer then London....

Only have

Trent Boult
Tim Southee
Mitchell Johnson
Mitchell Starc
Ryan Harris
Et al

Coming to these shores - (English innings may have to come with a viewer discretion warning)

On the bright side they'll be short

I think Beefy was most spot on about the changes that needed being made. As in Trott out, Ali dropped for full-time spinner and another seamer. Can't argue with that really.

guildfordbat wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Olly wrote:The spinner is a developmental thing, that is what Moeen is at this stage. He's learning his craft, and he has potential to be good.

I don't agree with chucking him aside after he's been chucked in  straight from an injury with no cricket - especially for someone in Tredwell who isn't in my eyes 1) one for the future or 2) better than Moeen in the test arena.

The opening partner for cook is tough now, going to debut against Boult and Southee followed by the array of Mitchell's. I'd quite like to have seen them persist with Sam Robson personally

On the spinner I think Moeen's problem is he needs to either prove himself as a player capable of being picked as a top 6 batsmen or a frontline spinner. At the moment he feels very vulnerable as both in the test arena. Except for the occasional seamers paradise I'm a big advocate of picking your three best seamers and best spinner at 8-11. If they offer more with the bat or in the field it is a bonus, an increasingly useful bonus in the modern game, but still a bonus IMO.

People will be calling for Cook to be replaced as captain but it once again comes down the simple question of who replaces him?

Yes, other than Jason Gillespie (who I thought ruled himself out for family reasons not long ago), very hard to think of a replacement.

I'd be extremely shocked if Dizzy came in as captain that's for sure Guildford!

On the coach I agree, similarly to the captaincy, that there isn't an obvious replacement to make removing Moores worth the change. I rate Gillespie very highly as a coach, 3 seasons at Yorkshire with a Div 2 title, runners up in Div 1 and Div 1 title is an exceptional record. However, Moores 3 year stint at Lancashire also included the div 2 and div 1 titles.

CaledonianCraig wrote:I think Beefy was most spot on about the changes that needed being made. As in Trott out, Ali dropped for full-time spinner and another seamer. Can't argue with that really.

Well for once I wouldn't argue with Botham there either , Craig. In fact that is almost exactly what I posted earlier and probably what most on here would think.

Trouble is ; that is a lot of "outs" ... which is the easy part. The hard part (and the useful bit) is finding the superior replacements... I take it Botham couldn't supply them today ?

I quite like Olly's view that Woakes should be playing in the summer ; but he is currently up on bricks... And while I really hope the next opener turns out to be a success I note we've had getting on for three years to replace Strauss and still haven't managed it...
And the spin cupboard looks a bit on the empty side so I am not holding my breath about that department. Might have to make do with the part timers this summer at least ?

Peter moores "disappointed because we've had a good series". No Peter that wasn't a good series, it was a lot of rubbish against a Test team that would struggle in the CC second division. Please resign now before you are pushed

Botham did mention Rashid and Lyth as replacements. I dont buy this stick with part-time spinners bit when there are specialist spinners waiting their chance. Like Beefy said England don't change a winning side and if they don't change now when losing then when? He said England must be the only side who refuse to make changes and I agree with that. Players named in the squad (such as Rashid and Lyth) must have had a blow to their confidence here as they saw players in the team not producing yet selectors refused to show faith in them. Not exactly boosting their confidence if they do finally get the nod is it?