West Indies vs England, Barbados - Friday 1st May to Tuesday 5th May

First topic message reminder :

With England having taken an unexpected (at start of day) lead in Grenada we move to Bridgetown for the last match of the tour. Team selection will be interesting, though I do expect England to select the same team.

Good arguments can be made for giving Lyth a chance to open, while by and large the bowlers have not looked overly threatening. This is demonstrated by the four different centurions WI have had, plus some good late partnerships.

WI may well have Taylor back. Holder has been the least impressive of the Windies seam bowlers, but his batting will be valued. Bishoo bowled well, but had to bowl too many overs in Englands first innings due to lack of options. Perhaps Taylor could return for a batsmen. If so whom? Blackwood has a century, but also some brainless cricket, so the old man Chanderpaul could be the most vulnerable. It woudl be a shame if his career was to end like this - but Phil Simmons will not allow sympathy or emotion to drive his selections.

If the weather holds could be a fascinating clash.

It is funny how when Australia where trying to replace Warne they picked a bunch of specialist guys until they found a good un in Lyon (Doherty, hauritz, Michael beer etc etc), whereas we're incredibly reluctant to give a specialist guy a go to replace swann because we have already made our minds up they're not good enough (without being given a chance).

Maybe we should take a leaf out of the Aussies books here

That was a long and difficult process, Olly and still ongoing in some people's minds. It's easier to find a large nugget of gold.... blindfolded.

Whilst it is understood that it is nigh on impossible to replace (or even try to replicate) a once in a generation specialist leg spin bowler such as Warne, there will always be this nostalgic urge (some may say desperate urge) to find that type of player again.

Better to nurture what you've got; send them through your "Academy" with appropriate mentoring (without breaking or burning them out) and then, as you say, give them a chance when the opportunity arises. I've had a quick glance at the CC bowling stocks. The cupboard certainly is barer than I thought.

Although I didn't stay up for this series like Alfie (I only saw parts of opening session and maybe last few overs each day) I did get the feeling that England had maybe taken their foot off the peddle after taking an unassailable 1-0 lead with one to go. There's always a chance that might happen and the West Indies would be desperate to save some face and go out with more positive resolve. That ground has a fair bit of history, you know!

They were a bit like Australia a few years ago, almost trying too hard and failing miserably. It's banging your head against a wall stuff to watch, I know. You know there is some talent and experience there but it's just not working. Maybe make the obvious changes mentioned above, take a punt on a debutante or two even and perhaps reinstate Tredwell who bowled so well in the 1st Test and had it on a piece of string at times. Not bad energy too for an older looking bloke.

Yes we should. And the first leaf in their book was to look at specialist bowlers whereas England have not. Look at the options available in Test Match environment and decide before, if needs be, returning to what they regard as the best option. To carry on selecting someone out of form and is a part-time spinner whilst specialists are not even given a sniff of a chance. Something is seriously wrong there.

Which specialists Craig? Kerrigan? Briggs? Riley? Tredwell? Panesar? are there any others? Wouldn't really class Rashid as a 'specialist' spinner.

I'm not sure how the Australian's went about replacing Warne is the best way to go to be honest. Given they went through Krejza (2 Tests), Doherty (4 Tests), McGain (1 Test) and Beer (2 Tests), I'm not sure that much of a turnover of spinners is helpful to either the captain, the team and the bowlers themselves. If they've identified as Moeen as having the capability to be a number one spinner, then they should stick with him and nuture him. As long as he bats 8, because I'm not sure he is good enough to bat top 6 at the moment, never mind if he is concentrating on his spin bowling.

Comment by Kingraf about a month ago-
" That said, while this West Indian team would
have lost 3-0 in South Africa had it not been for
rain, they can (operative word) prove a
challenge. Kraigg Brathwaite is coming along
as a cricketer, and Marlon Samuels can be very
good (if always one shot from a brain fade),
and Darren Bravo has shown glimpses of living
up to the Lara moniker. Jerome Taylor has
been a very good pro before, Kemar Roach is
brilliant when at full tilt (145-155) and Jason
Holder, when he gets it together, can become
one of the greats. Don't underestimate them"

So basically, every single player I warned could come good did at some point (except Roach).

#TalentIdentification

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Which specialists Craig? Kerrigan? Briggs? Riley? Tredwell? Panesar? are there any others? Wouldn't really class Rashid as a 'specialist' spinner.

Why not? If you throw the old chestnut in there that because they are not good enough I could counter you don't know that until they are tried? Allowing Ali to continue bowling rank long hops is not the way to win Test cricket. Jeez it must have got bad for England to be about the only Test side unable to produce a specialist spinner capable of holding a place down in the Test side.

Thing with Ali is he was selected as a batsman who could also bowl spin. He has never been a front line spinner for his county and now we ask him to learn the job while playing for England, and without a specialist spin coach and with a head coach who likes to tinker. That probably can never work, and should only happen if he is deserving of a place batting in the top 6, but currently he is not.

They will stick with him, but who knows how much harm has been done to him and the team by whipping him out to the Windies after on CC match where he batted OK and bowled like a novice. Pretty much everyone said on here that leaving him in England was the correct thing to do. Seems we were right and the management wrong.

LondonTiger wrote:Thing with Ali is he was selected as a batsman who could also bowl spin. He has never been a front line spinner for his county and now we ask him to learn the job while playing for England, and without a specialist spin coach and with a head coach who likes to tinker. That probably can never work, and should only happen if he is deserving of a place batting in the top 6, but currently he is not.

They will stick with him, but who knows how much harm has been done to him and the team by whipping him out to the Windies after on CC match where he batted OK and bowled like a novice. Pretty much everyone said on here that leaving him in England was the correct thing to do. Seems we were right and the management wrong.

Well that is the point here I think. The selectors can and do make errors - they are only human I suppose. True they are doing the job to the best of their ability but if they are making errors then you have to ask if they have the ability. Like I said hindsight is great I know but people on here were saying Trott should have been axed after the first two tests but he wasn't (error number one). People on here were saying Rashid should have been playing in the final test but wasn't selected and Moores admitted last night that was a mistake (error number two). People on here said Ali should not have been rushed out here and should have worked in form and fitness in County Cricket and that looks the right call (error number three). Hmm you have to start to ask questions of the selectors and their ability to do the job.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Which specialists Craig? Kerrigan? Briggs? Riley? Tredwell? Panesar? are there any others? Wouldn't really class Rashid as a 'specialist' spinner.

Why not? If you throw the old chestnut in there that because they are not good enough I could counter you don't know that until they are tried? Allowing Ali to continue bowling rank long hops is not the way to win Test cricket. Jeez it must have got bad for England to be about the only Test side unable to produce a specialist spinner capable of holding a place down in the Test side.

Wasn't trying to be dismissive of the players I mentioned. Just wondered which you thought would be the best choice. I don't get to see much County Cricket so it's hard for me to judge.

Why do you not view Rashid as a specialist spinner?

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Which specialists Craig? Kerrigan? Briggs? Riley? Tredwell? Panesar? are there any others? Wouldn't really class Rashid as a 'specialist' spinner.

Why not? If you throw the old chestnut in there that because they are not good enough I could counter you don't know that until they are tried? Allowing Ali to continue bowling rank long hops is not the way to win Test cricket. Jeez it must have got bad for England to be about the only Test side unable to produce a specialist spinner capable of holding a place down in the Test side.

Wasn't trying to be dismissive of the players I mentioned. Just wondered which you thought would be the best choice. I don't get to see much County Cricket so it's hard for me to judge.

Sorry for the sparky reaction Hoggy_Bear.

Like you I am not too well versed on those options but my point is mediocrity shouldn't be an accepted element to get in the England test side. In this series Ali has been mediocre so you look to all other options out there. Like Beefy says England don't change winning sides and they haven't changed losing sides of late so when are they going to make changes?

It's the seeming belief that guys who have performed very well in a CC winning side aren't good enough for the national side that worries me. If the selectors genuinely don't believe that performance in the county circuit is a good indicator for Test selection then we really are in trouble.

Of course the simplest way to rebuild that relationship between the counties and international sides (and their respective players) would be to have the international stars actually playing for their counties. That's another story that most have been harping on about for so long that it pretty much seems to have been given up on though.

Lyth in 2014 - Average 68, 6 centuries, 6 fifties

Rashid in 2014 - 46 wickets and average of 26. Alongside averaging 38 with the bat with two centuries and a fifty

Finally I know that Mark Wood looks a good bowler with a repeatable action that could offer us the control and consistency to complement a firing Anderson and Broad well. However, is anyone else a bit confused as to what he's done to get selected ahead of Chris Rushworth? The guy has been consistently excellent for three seasons now taking 64 wickets last season at 24.7.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Which specialists Craig? Kerrigan? Briggs? Riley? Tredwell? Panesar? are there any others? Wouldn't really class Rashid as a 'specialist' spinner.

Why not? If you throw the old chestnut in there that because they are not good enough I could counter you don't know that until they are tried? Allowing Ali to continue bowling rank long hops is not the way to win Test cricket. Jeez it must have got bad for England to be about the only Test side unable to produce a specialist spinner capable of holding a place down in the Test side.

Wasn't trying to be dismissive of the players I mentioned. Just wondered which you thought would be the best choice. I don't get to see much County Cricket so it's hard for me to judge.

Sorry for the sparky reaction Hoggy_Bear.

Like you I am not too well versed on those options but my point is mediocrity shouldn't be an accepted element to get in the England test side. In this series Ali has been mediocre so you look to all other options out there. Like Beefy says England don't change winning sides and they haven't changed losing sides of late so when are they going to make changes?

Yeah, agree that there should be changes. Certainly we need a new opener and 3rd seamer as priorities. Lyth is the obvious choice seeing as he was in the WIndies, but that may change by the time the next test squad is chosen. Woakes should come back in when fit. I think he adds a modicum of control, especially in English conditions, that would help the bowling attack as a whole. Of course he won't be fit in time for the first NZ test, so I'd plump, probably, for Plunkett, just as a stop gap. As for the spinners berth. I actually haven't watched much of the l;atest series, but it seems to me that Joe Root has bowled just as well as Moeen (although I may be wrong). If true, though, it's a pretty strong indictment that our 'part time' spinner is almost on a par with our 'full time' one. Now, if there are no specialist spinners who are better, maybe we would be better off continuing as we are now, with 4 seamers and two decent (but not great) spin options, especially early in the English season. But maybe we should also just pick a young(ish) specialist spinner and give him a go for the whole Summer?

kingraf wrote:Comment by Kingraf about a month ago-
" That said, while this West Indian team would
have lost 3-0 in South Africa had it not been for
rain, they can (operative word) prove a
challenge. Kraigg Brathwaite is coming along
as a cricketer, and Marlon Samuels can be very
good (if always one shot from a brain fade),
and Darren Bravo has shown glimpses of living
up to the Lara moniker. Jerome Taylor has
been a very good pro before, Kemar Roach is
brilliant when at full tilt (145-155) and Jason
Holder, when he gets it together, can become
one of the greats. Don't underestimate them"

So basically, every single player I warned could come good did at some point (except Roach).

#TalentIdentification

Not quite Raf, without Roach, England would have been 1-0 up at Antigua itself. And he did bowl well there and had taken 5 wickets though he never looked his best.
The guy is class, and I hope he'll be hitting his peak by the time the Australians are there. Gabriel has pace, but he isn't good enough to trouble the Australians really.

Well done, guys!

Kraigg Brathwaite, Darren Bravo, Marlon Samuels, Jermaine Blackwood and Jerome Taylor all did well, and Shannon Gabriel provided useful assistance....

As you know, I'm also a huge fan Of Kemar. Hope he can stay on the park long enough to get the mileage he needs. Gabriel should just adopt the Mitchell Johnson philosophy. Plan A 90+mph at at the chest, and plan B, 90+mph at the ribs.

Reckon WI have the firepower to give the Aussies a scare or two.

Yeah, I'd agree on Gabriel, pace is all that he's got, and he has to get the best out of it.......