2 English clubs in the Pro 12??

First topic message reminder :

Being reported today that London Scottish and London Welsh are being lined up to play in the pro12.....if the Italian teams don't pay money owed to the league.

Fantastic news that English teams are already touted as playing in what could be an early British and Irish League. Even if it doesn't happen, these increasingly frequent bits and bobs are only the beginning of what is to come.

SecretFly wrote:Back in your box, Tiger.  I warned you lot about trying to claim the: "We is hated but we don't care" title.  We've won it from you fair and square.  Don't be bad sports about it.

Nice try though.  I liked the bit about chips.... made me ever so hungry

you can willingly have the title.




If they ever cancel the St Paddy Day parades in NY and Boston and replace them with St George's Day ones.

LondonTiger wrote:gotta love how an article about the pro12, by a welsh journalist, has been used to bash the English. I can only assume some people have so many chips they should be served with battered fish.

I don't think Peter Jackson* is Welsh. Dean Ryan is English.

I'll tell you what.  They should have St Paddy's Day AND St Georgie's Day in New York on the very same day!

Now that would be a hoot.  It would bring back the ripe old history of New York to the present day.....

The Great Aukster wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Back in your box, Tiger.  I warned you lot about trying to claim the: "We is hated but we don't care" title.  We've won it from you fair and square.  Don't be bad sports about it.

Nice try though.  I liked the bit about chips.... made me ever so hungry

Surely all's fair in love and war, especially since the demise of the British Umpire.

We're at the Dawn of the Irish Refs. Much more threatening to the peace and tranquillity of the folks herearoundaboutways.

The Great Aukster wrote:Treviso is already "around Venice" so are they making a region there instead?

Italians agree four-year Celtic League deal - new team likely for next season
The Celtic League have agreed a deal for two Italian teams to play in the competition for the next four years.

Reports claimed the Italians planned to withdraw their leading clubs Zebre and Treviso into a domestic national championship because of uncertainty over the future of the European Cup with leading Welsh clubs contemplating an alliance with English Premiership teams.

But the Celtic League announced that the Italian Rugby Federation (FIR) would become an equal partner in Celtic Rugby from July 1, and that two Italian teams would take part for the next four years.

FIR president Alfredo Gavazzi hailed the news as a "huge victory".

"An agreement for Italy to have equal shareholding rights with two teams in the Celtic League as of 2014 has been reached," said an FIR statement.

The FIR also managed to negotiate a huge reduction, by more than two-thirds, of the three-million euros fee it paid to have two franchises in the league.

"The three million euros fee has been reduced to less than a third... it's a huge victory," said Gavazzi, who has also asked for financial help from the International Board.
Pulling out

Treviso announced last month they would be pulling out of the Celtic League and taking part in a domestic competition next season.

While struggling Parma-based, but federation-run Zebre will continue in the same form, having been run independently as Aironi for two seasons before changing at the start of last season, it means the second Italian representative is likely to undergo a make-over.

The second franchise is likely to be made up by a collaboration between Venetian teams and may take on a locally-relevant name.

On the teams, Gavazzi added: "One will be the north-west franchise, Zebre, while the other will be from the north-east, and be called Treviso or Dogi (Doges)."

A statement issued by Celtic Rugby read: "A constructive meeting took place on Tuesday in London between FIR and the Celtic Rugby Unions (Scottish Rugby Union, Irish Rugby Football Union, Welsh Rugby Union).

"The meeting was successful and an agreement was reached for FIR to join Celtic Rugby as an equal partner from July 1st, 2014.

"The terms of participation of two Italian teams were agreed upon. Under the new agreement, FIR will ensure the participation of two Italian teams for the next four years in the competition which is currently known as the RaboDirect PRO12.

"The agreement between FIR, SRU, WRU and IRFU will be officially signed in due course."

---

I think the formation of this new team and the withdrawal of FIR financial support of Treviso was one of the reasons that Treviso fell apart this season.

SecretFly wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Back in your box, Tiger.  I warned you lot about trying to claim the: "We is hated but we don't care" title.  We've won it from you fair and square.  Don't be bad sports about it.

Nice try though.  I liked the bit about chips.... made me ever so hungry

Surely all's fair in love and war, especially since the demise of the British Umpire.

We're at the Dawn of the Irish Refs.  Much more threatening to the peace and tranquillity of the folks herearoundaboutways.

SecretFly wrote:
We're at the Dawn of the Irish Refs.  Much more threatening to the peace and tranquillity of the folks herearoundaboutways.

Can we bring back Allain Rolland then please.




Only for Franco/Welsh games of course

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Well the PRO12 don't have a cap at all so they might jump at the chance.

We do - i.e., we don't spend money we don't have.

I wonder how the French and English teams would operate if they were only allowed 4 Non- French/English qualified players in their squads?

22 out of Saracens squad (43) are England qualified. Saracens have 7 players in hits academy.

5 out of Munster's squad (43) are non-Ireland qualified (and 1 of them is a temporary signing). Munster have 20 in their academy.

Makes their achievement in winning the Academy League all the more creditable, with just 7 players against 23 in each match.


If French and English teams were limited in the number of NE/FQ players, then the worldwide pool of jobs for capped Tier 2 internationals would shrink dramatically, and many would be playing amateur rugby, to the detriment of the global International game. Uncapped Tier 2 (and other) players would effectively be banned from playing for the land of their birth or heritage if they want gainful employment by playing rugby.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Well the PRO12 don't have a cap at all so they might jump at the chance.

We do - i.e., we don't spend money we don't have.

I wonder how the French and English teams would operate if they were only allowed 4 Non- French/English qualified players in their squads?

22 out of Saracens squad (43) are England qualified. Saracens have 7 players in hits academy.

5 out of Munster's squad (43) are non-Ireland qualified (and 1 of them is a temporary signing). Munster have 20 in their academy.

Makes their achievement in winning the Academy League all the more creditable, with just 7 players against 23 in each match.


If French and English teams were limited in the number of NE/FQ players, then the worldwide pool of jobs for capped Tier 2 internationals would shrink dramatically, and many would be playing amateur rugby, to the detriment of the global International game. Uncapped Tier 2 (and other) players would effectively be banned from playing for the land of their birth or heritage if they want gainful employment by playing rugby.

Is it Saracens Academy or Saracens 'A'? How do Saracens keep their senior squad of 43 fit?

More teams, leagues would be created if there were more players. Both Scotland and Wales reduced the number of Pro teams they had because they didn't have the players to fill them (or the money to support them).

Whats wrong with them playing amateur rugby anyway if they are not good enough to play pro rugby in their own countries. No one has a divine right to play professional rugby.


So, every

Sarries did the treble in the development competitions this season.

U18's won the Academy league, Saracens Storm won the A-league (Monday evening games) and a heavily rotated 1st team beat an equally rotated Exeter in the LV final.

Most Tier 2 countries don't have the finances to sustain professional leagues. Top players from Fiji, Samoa and Tonga would get work, but many other internationals would struggle to do so and the depth of international squads would suffer.

Chris Wyles (who's about as American as ROG) is employed by Sarries along with a couple of his US team-mates. He's a very decent squad player, but I doubt if he's of the quality to be one of 4 "foreigners" in any AP or T14 squad. Yet he grew up in Saracens catchment area - he's a local, but he'd probably still be playing for Nottingham at a lower pro level, to the detriment of both his wallet and his rugby experience. He may well still have been picked for USA, but he'd be a poorer player.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Being reported today that London Scottish and London Welsh are being lined up to play in the pro12.....if the Italian teams don't pay money owed to the league.

I'm curious. How did you come to the conclusion based on the Rugby Paper report published that the two teams could join, if the two Italian teams don't pay up?

The report states that London Welsh and London Scottish are in some talks to possibly join the Pro12 because in part, they're dissatisfied with how they've been treated elsewhere.

The report then says in a tail-end para that the Pro12 has a more urgent issue to deal with in relation to the Italian teams not paying the "hugely reduced fee" that the FIR president claimed they had achieved.

Where's the link between the two?

Interesting discussion here- on Scottish fans view of London Welsh and London Scottish joining the Pro12 - a month before the Rugby Paper report appeared.

They were discussing it on the London Welsh forum about a month ago too. Most, if not all their fans on there were very excited at the possibility of joining the P12.

I thought I read yonks ago that the Italians were retreating (no surprise there then!) back into a domestic semi-pro league. Perhaps a bit like the Argies who let/encouraged their top players to move abroad.
As several folk have said, unless they have major sponsorship from an airline, the travel costs must be ridiculously high compared to, say, ticket money.

So, all this is based on a bit of wishful thinking from London/Scottish & Welsh.

I recall there being trouble between the SRU & FIR over the division of the 20m from the Champs Cup. Its probably the Scots trying to get rid of the Italians so that there will be a bigger share for them. (At the moment it is split equally 3 ways between the SRU/IRFU/WRU - with the Italians getting a little bit less (even though the SRU have 2 teams just like the Italians and Wales & Ireland have 4 teams. They would also get more from the 6Ns if there was no Italy).

Reading that Scottish Forum - what is their beef with Munster?

Scottish Blog wrote:There’s a better balance in Ireland but some provinces – Munster I’m looking at you here – are punching nowhere near their weight commercially at present.

I wouldn't pay much heed to what Greenwood has to say, Sin é.

The man's an idiot.

What he calls Daffodil diplomacy is his answer to stop the Welsh moaning:

"The entry of London Welsh would be a start, a gesture towards the ‘traditional’ fixtures the fans crave. When the Scots and Irish teams travel to Wales they need to take their full squads, always."

So then, kick out the Italians and bring in London Welsh (just for a start), to stop the welsh moaning.
The Irish and Scots should >always!< take their full squads. Never mind about blooding young prospects. Never mind about senior players needing a rest. Flog them if needs be. So long as it stops the Welsh moaning!

"Smash the Unions!" Smash the IRFU because...well... they must be doing something wrong....blame Munster...for something.

Even though all Provinces are pretty much owned by the IRFU and are doing rather well.

Good grief. Such a poor article.

P.s Welsh people. The Welsh moaning thing can be attributed to Greenwood. Not me

LeinsterFan4life wrote:They were discussing it on the London Welsh forum about a month ago too. Most, if not all both their fans on there were very excited at the possibility of joining the P12.

Fixed

Notch wrote:

Munchkin wrote:14 teams is too many for the Pro 12. T14 have enough problems with such a tight schedule. It would be even more difficult for the Pro 12.

I would like to see a second tier at some point, but for that we would need at least 20 teams. So another 6 needed for that to happen, along with the finance to run a second tier.

Second tier is not a good idea at all for me; lots of teams are struggling to get crowds as it is. Add in the fact they are playing second tier rugby and it will probably make the problem worse, not better, especially once nations lose out on their derby games. Imagine Edinburgh are in Tier 2 and Glasgow are in Tier1- Scottish Rugby needs the 1872 Cup to promote their professional

Much better to have a conference system- two leagues that run parallel and send teams to the same playoffs would allow expansion while guaranteeing we can keep as many derbies as possible. Here's how it could work effectively if we hypothetically did go up to 14 teams.

Conference A
Leinster, Ulster, Munster, Connacht, Treviso, Zebre, London Welsh

Conference B
Ospreys, Scarlets, Blues, Dragons, Glasgow, Edinburgh, London Scottish

Each team plays 19 games in the regular season;

6 Home games against the other teams in their conference
6 Away games against the other teams in their conference
3/4 Home games against the teams from the other conference (alternating ie. 3 one year, 4 the next)
3/4 Away games against the teams from the other conference (alternating ie. 3 one year, 4 the next)

The Top 4 in each conference go into playoffs at the end (home side in bold)

QF1; 1st place Conference A vs 4th place Conference B
QF2; 2nd place Conference B vs 3rd place Conference A
QF3; 1st place Conference B vs 4th place Conference A
QF4; 2nd place Conference A vs 3rd place Conference B

SF1; Winner QF1 vs Winner QF3
SF2; Winner QF3 vs Winner QF4

Final; Winner SF1 vs Winner SF2
Final venue selected at the beginning of the season

Thanks, Notch.

Nice That might well work. I wouldn't want 14 teams in Pro 12 otherwise.
Valid point on why a second tier would not be a good idea. I agree, but I wasn't really talking about right now, but at some point in the future, and that would very much depend on how successful Pro 12 becomes.

LondonTiger wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:They were discussing it on the London Welsh forum about a month ago too. Most, if not all both their fans on there were very excited at the possibility of joining the P12.

Fixed

Ah there was a few of them on the thread, although I'm guessing some of them were fans of the regions in the P12.

LondonTiger wrote:so may be he is merely absolving Ireland of any blame.

That's the Irish on here for you, they will not accept any responsibility for anything that goes wrong with the Pro12, it is all everybody else's fault.

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Well the PRO12 don't have a cap at all so they might jump at the chance.

We do - i.e., we don't spend money we don't have.

I wonder how the French and English teams would operate if they were only allowed 4 Non- French/English qualified players in their squads?

22 out of Saracens squad (43) are England qualified. Saracens have 7 players in hits academy.

5 out of Munster's squad (43) are non-Ireland qualified (and 1 of them is a temporary signing). Munster have 20 in their academy.

It's your choice to have a cap on foreign players as it is also your choice to have no salary cap.

Also if we are being pedantic then technically Sharman, Joubert, Longbottom and Du Plessis are English qualified which would bring the EQ up to 26.

Plus you also have two players who are technically English but play for other countries - Wyles and Hamilton. Also Duncan Taylor was born in England and has spent all his time in the English club set up.


As for the rest - it gives some of the less developed rugby nations a hero they can root for like Jacques Burger of Namibia, Kelly Brown of Scotland....,Marcelo Bosch of Argentina.....  



Anyway Sarries academy is doing fine.

Looks like Saracens are developing another 2nd row - 6,7 at just 16 years old!

http://www.hertsad.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/isiekwe_on_england_saracens_and_preparing_for_exams_1_4055852



Though saying that it does seem like the AP will have more foreigners next season.

Change in Leicester's recruitment policy in the last few years has been significant and not for the better.

To be honest Quins' signing of more foreigners was inevitable - they've been repeatedly hampered by a heavy reliance on their England spine (Marler,Brown,Easter,Robshaw and Care) and their academy players have not yet developed fully yet.

Signing players who will not be playing international rugby is logical.


Dubbelyew L overate

totally agree. Great posts. I like Exeter - excellent team. Really done well to break into the AP and ruffle plenty of feathers. Great fans too - been down to Sandy Park twice - very friendly.

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:so may be he is merely absolving Ireland of any blame.

That's the Irish on here for you, they will not accept any responsibility for anything that goes wrong with the Pro12, it is all everybody else's fault.

Just join Chunky on his wanderly wagon to his Valhalla of an I&B League, Lord.

'Fault' is the only thing on your lips these days.  

It's like one of those sickly Business Retreats we used to hear about a good few years ago, when respectable adults went into woods with their work colleagues and cried at the moon to "better create an atmosphere of bonding that would then empower the company to move forward in a climate of positivity and 'Normalcy' - and make tons of money!" - but first the cozy howling at the moon sessions of soul opening and unity facilitation foundation protocols....        

So let's have a séance of Mutual Blame and Fault Declaratory Confessions and maybe even join hands and howl at the moon ....... and then - then move on into the rosy future, with even Chunky realising a few communal howls cured his bitter hatred of Pro12.

Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished.

beshocked wrote:
Change in Leicester's recruitment policy in the last few years has been significant and not for the better.

I agree, however much of it has been driven by the desire to stay under the salary cap. For example we signed Bowden and Thompstone for less than the money we offered Twelvetrees to stay. We signed 3 Italian internationals (Rizzo, Ghiraldini, Barbieri) for less money than Castro was on. Owen Williams was on less than half the salary Bath pay George Ford.

By choosing to stay under the cap you have to make compromises and quality will suffer. However we have not developed our academy players as much as we should.

Londontiger

Do you not think you could have retained Ford or Twelvetrees if you made sure they were first choice in their position? It's obviously important for players to get gametime.

Personally I don't think money is the only reason why a player stays or leaves a club.

beshocked wrote:



Personally I don't think money is the only reason why a player stays or leaves a club.

Correct. But more and more and more, it's becoming the biggest reason.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:so may be he is merely absolving Ireland of any blame.

That's the Irish on here for you, they will not accept any responsibility for anything that goes wrong with the Pro12, it is all everybody else's fault.

Just join Chunky on his wanderly wagon to his Valhalla of an I&B League, Lord.

'Fault' is the only thing on your lips these days.  

It's like one of those sickly Business Retreats we used to hear about a good few years ago, when respectable adults went into woods with their work colleagues and cried at the moon to "better create an atmosphere of bonding that would then empower the company to move forward in a climate of positivity and 'Normalcy' - and make tons of money!" - but first the cozy howling at the moon sessions of soul opening and unity facilitation foundation protocols....        

So let's have a séance of Mutual Blame and Fault Declaratory Confessions and maybe even join hands and howl at the moon ....... and then - then move on into the rosy future, with even Chunky realising a few communal howls cured his bitter hatred of Pro12.

Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished.

Firstly SF, as you already know,because I have told you umpteen times before, I am not interested in a B&I league, I want to make the Pro12 better, but that will never happen, because the Irish think they are faultless when it comes to the failings of the Pro12 so they will not alter how they treat our league. Secondly, the rest of your weird point of view is moot, because you refuse to see any wrong doing from your side of the fence.

LordDowlais wrote:


I want to make the Pro12 better, but that will never happen, because the Irish think they are faultless when it comes to the failings of the Pro12 so they will not alter how they treat our league. Secondly, the rest of your weird point of view is moot, because you refuse to see any wrong doing from your side of the fence.

Therefore move into Chunky's camp.  He needs support.  If Pro12 will never work because the Irish refuse to hoist a white flag and do things the Welsh way then it'll never work.  Off you go to champion a new way - yet again.  

The Welsh clubs didn't want Regionalism to begin with.
The Welsh clubs still frown on Regionalism.
The Welsh Regions didn't really want a 'Celtic' League.
The Welsh Regions backed PRL in saying the ERC wasn't good enough.
The Welsh Regions threatened to leave their 'partners' and go to an Anglo/Welsh League.
The Welsh Regions don't like their Union
The WRU didn't have much time for the Regions.
The Welsh Regions are at peace again.  Peace with the WRU, peace with the Pro12, peace with Europe.
The Welsh Regions are muttering again about maybe not being so happy again...about something else.... again.

You tell me why all of that would help a Pro12 League grow and attract bigger crowds through the years?   The Eternally Not Happy League.... a tough marketing cookie to be sure to be sure.

An Anglo/Welsh League looks the only solution to cut the bullschit for good, Lord, to be blunt about it.  And of course, there'd never be a bad word spoken about that new shiny toy  ..................................

SF, you do not half talk bollox, why do I want the Irish to hoist the white flag ? When have I ever said that ? I will say it one last time. I HAVE NO INTEREST IN A B&I LEAGUE. So please, stop beating me with that stick. All the issues you have pointed out above, we are addressing, but it is easier for you to say the Irish are perfect, because you do not want the Pro12 to change, why, because it suits you the way it is. Since it's inception you have put the league a very poor second to Europe. You have used it as a breeding ground for your lesser players, and it suits you to have the biggest budgets in the league as it keeps the provinces at the top.

You think the league cannot get better because of the Welsh, but I think that every nation involved is responsible. It suits the Irish to have a league that is not as big as it can be, then you can use that excuse to put all your eggs into the European basket. The Pro12 has bean geared up to favour the Irish for too long, it needs to change, it needs to be the priority of all our nations, not a poor second to the scraps from the table that the French and English throw us.

But you do not want this do you ? I wonder why ?

LordDowlais wrote:SF, you do not half talk bollox, why do I want the Irish to hoist the white flag ? When have I ever said that ? I will say it one last time. I HAVE NO INTEREST IN A B&I LEAGUE. So please, stop beating me with that stick. All the issues you have pointed out above, we are addressing, but it is easier for you to say the Irish are perfect, because you do not want the Pro12 to change, why, because it suits you the way it is. Since it's inception you have put the league a very poor second to Europe. You have used it as a breeding ground for your lesser players, and it suits you to have the biggest budgets in the league as it keeps the provinces at the top.

You think the league cannot get better because of the Welsh, but I think that every nation involved is responsible. It suits the Irish to have a league that is not as big as it can be, then you can use that excuse to put all your eggs into the European basket. The Pro12 has bean geared up to favour the Irish for too long, it needs to change, it needs to be the priority of all our nations, not a poor second to the scraps from the table that the French and English throw us.

But you do not want this do you ? I wonder why ?

You're rolling a stone up a hill and taking too many rests whilst not looking, Lord. You'll never get it up that hill. I'm on my way out now...but I'll answer this to this one later in the afternoon/evening.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:so may be he is merely absolving Ireland of any blame.

That's the Irish on here for you, they will not accept any responsibility for anything that goes wrong with the Pro12, it is all everybody else's fault.

Just join Chunky on his wanderly wagon to his Valhalla of an I&B League, Lord.

'Fault' is the only thing on your lips these days.  

It's like one of those sickly Business Retreats we used to hear about a good few years ago, when respectable adults went into woods with their work colleagues and cried at the moon to "better create an atmosphere of bonding that would then empower the company to move forward in a climate of positivity and 'Normalcy' - and make tons of money!" - but first the cozy howling at the moon sessions of soul opening and unity facilitation foundation protocols....        

So let's have a séance of Mutual Blame and Fault Declaratory Confessions and maybe even join hands and howl at the moon ....... and then - then move on into the rosy future, with even Chunky realising a few communal howls cured his bitter hatred of Pro12.

Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished.

Firstly SF, as you already know,because I have told you umpteen times before, I am not interested in a B&I league, I want to make the Pro12 better, but that will never happen, because the Irish think they are faultless when it comes to the failings of the Pro12 so they will not alter how they treat our league. Secondly, the rest of your weird point of view is moot, because you refuse to see any wrong doing from your side of the fence.

It's happened and it's happening, LD. Deny it all you want but it's happened and it's happening. The Pro 12 is improving.

It's actually some achievement for Pro 12 to have both Guinness and SKY sign up after the all the ill feeling, and uncertainty, caused by the Euro battle, and PRL/RRW/Some Regions fans doing their level best to tarnish its image, and weaken its value.....

It's also much more competitive this year for the middle table sides.

Some guys are never happy.

Munchkin wrote:Some Regions fans doing their level best to tarnish its image, and weaken its value.....

How has it's value been weakened because of regional fans?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Some Regions fans doing their level best to tarnish its image, and weaken its value.....

How has it's value been weakened because of regional fans?

Absolutely it does. You don't think social media has the power to weaken value? Of course it does. Moffett understood this well enough. Probably why he joined Gwlad and rallied the troops in his failed bid to take on WRU.

It's also telling that mainstream media are quoting comments made on Twitter/Facebook, etc. It makes an impact.

Imagine potential Welsh rugby fans thinking about going along to a Regions game. They then check out that regions supporters site to find that those supporters hate Pro 12, blame the Irish for all their faults, accuse the Irish of cheating, crave entry into an English league....and on....and on....and on....and on....

It doesn't matter if those Welsh fans believe the nonsense spouted on these sites or not. If they believe it, why would they want to be a part of it? If they don't believe, why would they want to be a part of them?

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Some Regions fans doing their level best to tarnish its image, and weaken its value.....

How has it's value been weakened because of regional fans?

Absolutely. You don't think social media has the power to weaken value? Of course it does. Moffett understood this well enough. Probably why he joined Gwlad and rallied the troops in his failed bid to take on WRU.

I'll ask again, how has the pro12 been weakened by regional fans? In what areas is it now weaker? What actions by Welsh regional fans caused this?

Munchkin wrote:/Some Regions fans doing their level best to tarnish its image, and weaken its value.....

As apposed to the IRFU treating the league a very poor second to Europe ?

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Some Regions fans doing their level best to tarnish its image, and weaken its value.....

How has it's value been weakened because of regional fans?

Absolutely. You don't think social media has the power to weaken value? Of course it does. Moffett understood this well enough. Probably why he joined Gwlad and rallied the troops in his failed bid to take on WRU.

It can't have that much power seeing as he failed.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:


I want to make the Pro12 better, but that will never happen, because the Irish think they are faultless when it comes to the failings of the Pro12 so they will not alter how they treat our league. Secondly, the rest of your weird point of view is moot, because you refuse to see any wrong doing from your side of the fence.

Therefore move into Chunky's camp.  He needs support.  If Pro12 will never work because the Irish refuse to hoist a white flag and do things the Welsh way then it'll never work.  Off you go to champion a new way - yet again...............................

Same could be said for the Welsh not lowering their underwear and bending over the table for the Irish, the Irish start whining we are not playing nicely. Truth be told until both sets of fans shut the fupp up and blaming each other non-stop the league will get more and more of a joke.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Some Regions fans doing their level best to tarnish its image, and weaken its value.....

How has it's value been weakened because of regional fans?

Absolutely. You don't think social media has the power to weaken value? Of course it does. Moffett understood this well enough. Probably why he joined Gwlad and rallied the troops in his failed bid to take on WRU.

I'll ask again, how has the pro12 been weakened by regional fans? In what areas is it now weaker? What actions by Welsh regional fans caused this?

I added too my comment, Chunky.

It's all about supporters like you

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Some Regions fans doing their level best to tarnish its image, and weaken its value.....

How has it's value been weakened because of regional fans?

Absolutely. You don't think social media has the power to weaken value? Of course it does. Moffett understood this well enough. Probably why he joined Gwlad and rallied the troops in his failed bid to take on WRU.

It can't have that much power seeing as he failed.

So you don't think all the negative publicity it created was a result for the whiny ones? The fact that Moffett fell on his own sword by screwing up his speech at the EGM is neither here nor there. The fact that he got that far is.

Munchkin, do you not think that the IRFU prioritising Europe over the league has had a damaging affect ?

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Some Regions fans doing their level best to tarnish its image, and weaken its value.....

How has it's value been weakened because of regional fans?

Absolutely it does. You don't think social media has the power to weaken value? Of course it does. Moffett understood this well enough. Probably why he joined Gwlad and rallied the troops in his failed bid to take on WRU.

It's also telling that mainstream media are quoting comments made on Twitter/Facebook, etc. It makes an impact.

Imagine potential Welsh rugby fans thinking about going along to a Regions game. They then check out that regions supporters site to find that those supporters hate Pro 12, blame the Irish for all their faults, accuse the Irish of cheating, crave entry into an English league....and on....and on....and on....and on....

It doesn't matter if those Welsh fans believe the nonsense spouted on these sites or not. If they believe it, why would they want to be a part of it? If they don't believe, why would they want to be a part of them?

So not one bit of evidence of the Pro12 being weakened by regional fans.

Pathetic.

LD, it did back in the Magners league days but now every provincial fan (well there are still a couple of munster fans who don't give a fiddlers about the league) cares how they do in the league. Just look at the celebrations when Leinster won their last two league titles.

Ulster and Leinster regularly get over 15k to their home games. Connacht have gone from having 300 Season ticket holders in 2010/11 to having 3000 now. Both the Welsh and the Irish have addressed their issues with the league and the P12 can finally kick on.

LordDowlais wrote:Munchkin, do you not think that the IRFU prioritising Europe over the league has had a damaging affect ?

It's the wrong question because it isn't true. It is true that the IRFU really want the Provinces to be at the top of Europe. Why wouldn't they? For the Provinces to be at the top of Europe those Provinces have to compete in Pro 12, and by compete i mean challenge for the top spots.

Remember, it's the IRFU that orders the Provinces to rest their players even when that may mean those same players miss out on game time/preparation before being thrown into a Championship game.

beshocked wrote:Londontiger

Do you not think you could have retained Ford or Twelvetrees if you made sure they were first choice in their position? It's obviously important for players to get gametime.

Personally I don't think money is the only reason why a player stays or leaves a club.

Both were behind people in the England Squad (Flood was Englands starter at the time Ford decided to move, Allen had just toured SA when 36 left) and moved on for gametime - though both would have got the gametime if they had stayed.. But equally we were unable to afford to keep them at the salaries they were offerd and stay within the cap. The ensuing recruitment was driven by an attempt to get value for money.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Some Regions fans doing their level best to tarnish its image, and weaken its value.....

How has it's value been weakened because of regional fans?

Absolutely it does. You don't think social media has the power to weaken value? Of course it does. Moffett understood this well enough. Probably why he joined Gwlad and rallied the troops in his failed bid to take on WRU.

It's also telling that mainstream media are quoting comments made on Twitter/Facebook, etc. It makes an impact.

Imagine potential Welsh rugby fans thinking about going along to a Regions game. They then check out that regions supporters site to find that those supporters hate Pro 12, blame the Irish for all their faults, accuse the Irish of cheating, crave entry into an English league....and on....and on....and on....and on....

It doesn't matter if those Welsh fans believe the nonsense spouted on these sites or not. If they believe it, why would they want to be a part of it? If they don't believe, why would they want to be a part of them?

So not one bit of evidence of the Pro12 being weakened by regional fans.

Pathetic.

So the Regions are hosting games to packed out crowds? But then that's all the fault of the Irish, isn't it? Nothing to do with Welsh infighting. Nothing to do with the media campaign of some of the Regions fans to tarnish the image of the Pro 12, and weaken its image....

You're in denial, Chunky......and without a paddle

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Munchkin, do you not think that the IRFU prioritising Europe over the league has had a damaging affect ?

It's the wrong question because it isn't true. It is true that the IRFU really want the Provinces to be at the top of Europe. Why wouldn't they? For the Provinces to be at the top of Europe those Provinces have to compete in Pro 12, and by compete i mean challenge for the top spots.

Remember, it's the IRFU that orders the Provinces to rest their players even when that may mean those same players miss out on game time/preparation before being thrown into a Championship game.

You are not answering the question.

Munchkin wrote:So the Regions are hosting games to packed out crowds? But then that's all the fault of the Irish, isn't it? Nothing to do with Welsh infighting. Nothing to do with the media campaign of some of the Regions fans to tarnish the image of the Pro 12, and weaken its image....

We are addressing this, as noticed when over 50,000 fans turned out for JD III. So what can the IRFU do to improve things ?

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:So the Regions are hosting games to packed out crowds? But then that's all the fault of the Irish, isn't it? Nothing to do with Welsh infighting. Nothing to do with the media campaign of some of the Regions fans to tarnish the image of the Pro 12, and weaken its image....

We are addressing this, as noticed when over 50,000 fans turned out for JD III. So what can the IRFU do to improve things ?

50,000 with tickets at 10 quid each with I'm sure a few freebies handed out. The annual Munster v Leinster match in the Aviva has sold out twice (51k) with the tickets at 40-50 euro.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Munchkin, do you not think that the IRFU prioritising Europe over the league has had a damaging affect ?

It's the wrong question because it isn't true. It is true that the IRFU really want the Provinces to be at the top of Europe. Why wouldn't they? For the Provinces to be at the top of Europe those Provinces have to compete in Pro 12, and by compete i mean challenge for the top spots.

Remember, it's the IRFU that orders the Provinces to rest their players even when that may mean those same players miss out on game time/preparation before being thrown into a Championship game.

You are not answering the question.

I have answered it very clearly. There is no question to answer....

I do understand your thinking, LD. You would probably love to see all teams putting out their strongest squads in all Pro 12 games. We would all like that, LD. It's simply not possible though, and not just for the Provinces, and not just for the Pro 12. It applies to the AP and T14 as well. It would only be possible if a club had such strength that no matter how many changes they made to their 23, that 23 would always be of equal strength. How may clubs can do that?

Munchkin wrote:

So the Regions are hosting games to packed out crowds? But then that's all the fault of the Irish, isn't it? Nothing to do with Welsh infighting. Nothing to do with the media campaign of some of the Regions fans to tarnish the image of the Pro 12, and weaken its image....

You're in denial, Chunky......and without a paddle

You think that regional fans are to blame for their own crowds?

Seriously?

That's hilarious.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

So the Regions are hosting games to packed out crowds? But then that's all the fault of the Irish, isn't it? Nothing to do with Welsh infighting. Nothing to do with the media campaign of some of the Regions fans to tarnish the image of the Pro 12, and weaken its image....

You're in denial, Chunky......and without a paddle

You think that regional fans are to blame for their own crowds?

Seriously?

That's hilarious.

Denial