2 English clubs in the Pro 12??

First topic message reminder :

Being reported today that London Scottish and London Welsh are being lined up to play in the pro12.....if the Italian teams don't pay money owed to the league.

Fantastic news that English teams are already touted as playing in what could be an early British and Irish League. Even if it doesn't happen, these increasingly frequent bits and bobs are only the beginning of what is to come.

Why would regional fans want to harm their own regions?

You're mental.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:50,000 with tickets at 10 quid each with I'm sure a few freebies handed out. The annual Munster v Leinster match in the Aviva has sold out twice (51k) with the tickets at 40-50 euro.

Well at least we are trying to address our failing towards OUR league, I will ask again, what is the IRFU going to do ?

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why would regional fans want to harm their own regions?

You're mental.

They don't, but some, the few, do so anyway.

Look, if I want to invest some of my hard earned cash in a product, I don't just take the word of the owners on how wonderful that product is. I do go online and check out what the customers have to say about it. I specifically go to online forums where I can read the reviews of those customers before I decide that it's the right purchase for me. And that will be based on positive/negative reviews. A more obvious example is the customer reviews on Amazon or ebay. It's those customers reviews that can sell the product to me.

The supporters can act as sales people for their clubs. Not many sales people will sell many products by rubbishing the product.

I'm not saying that it is all down to negative comments online, Chunky. It's far more complex than that. Just that it doesn't help.

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:50,000 with tickets at 10 quid each with I'm sure a few freebies handed out. The annual Munster v Leinster match in the Aviva has sold out twice (51k) with the tickets at 40-50 euro.

Well at least we are trying to address our failing towards OUR league, I will ask again, what is the IRFU going to do ?

What are the IRFU going to do? What do you mean?

Munchkin wrote:Look, if I want to invest some of my hard earned cash in a product

I wouldn't, not if the unions were not taking it seriously, no way, if the people running it and taking part in it treated it a very poor second to other competitions,then I would not touch it with a barge pole.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:What are the IRFU going to do? What do you mean?

Well, could start treating the league with a little less contempt for a start.

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why would regional fans want to harm their own regions?

You're mental.

They don't, but some, the few, do so anyway.

Look, if I want to invest some of my hard earned cash in a product, I don't just take the word of the owners on how wonderful that product is. I do go online and check out what the customers have to say about it. I specifically go to online forums where I can read the reviews of those customers before I decide that it's the right purchase for me. And that will be based on positive/negative reviews. A more obvious example is the customer reviews on Amazon or ebay. It's those customers reviews that can sell the product to me.

The supporters can act as sales people for their clubs. Not many sales people will sell many products by rubbishing the product.

I'm not saying that it is all down to negative comments online, Chunky. It's far more complex than that. Just that it doesn't help.

The highlighted bit is very similar to online forums. There are generally either 5* or 1* reviews, either the product is the best thing since sliced bread or the pits. I was looking for something on amazon the other day, and the rave/poor reviews were either from fanatical fan boy types who just said 'best buy ever' or from the perpetually miserable saying 'it would be good if it had......., and it doesn't so it is no good'.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Look, if I want to invest some of my hard earned cash in a product

I wouldn't, not if the unions were not taking it seriously, no way, if the people running it and taking part in it treated it a very poor second to other competitions,then I would not touch it with a barge pole.

But you're obviously in a minority. Most people don't agree with you.

I thought you had said somewhere that you attend the games? Even if you didn't attend the games but watched them on TV, you're still an investor

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:What are the IRFU going to do? What do you mean?

Well, could start treating the league with a little less contempt for a start.

So Leinster have made every Pro12 final to date (with crowds averaging around 18k) because we treat the league with contempt? Just because they want to win a HC doesn't mean they don't care about the league.

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why would regional fans want to harm their own regions?

You're mental.

They don't, but some, the few, do so anyway.

Look, if I want to invest some of my hard earned cash in a product, I don't just take the word of the owners on how wonderful that product is. I do go online and check out what the customers have to say about it. I specifically go to online forums where I can read the reviews of those customers before I decide that it's the right purchase for me. And that will be based on positive/negative reviews. A more obvious example is the customer reviews on Amazon or ebay. It's those customers reviews that can sell the product to me.

The supporters can act as sales people for their clubs. Not many sales people will sell many products by rubbishing the product.

I'm not saying that it is all down to negative comments online, Chunky. It's far more complex than that. Just that it doesn't help.

You said it has weakened the pro12. There is not a shred of evidence that welsh regional fans have weakened the pro12. As the last half hour of our lives has proved.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why would regional fans want to harm their own regions?

You're mental.

They don't, but some, the few, do so anyway.

Look, if I want to invest some of my hard earned cash in a product, I don't just take the word of the owners on how wonderful that product is. I do go online and check out what the customers have to say about it. I specifically go to online forums where I can read the reviews of those customers before I decide that it's the right purchase for me. And that will be based on positive/negative reviews. A more obvious example is the customer reviews on Amazon or ebay. It's those customers reviews that can sell the product to me.

The supporters can act as sales people for their clubs. Not many sales people will sell many products by rubbishing the product.

I'm not saying that it is all down to negative comments online, Chunky. It's far more complex than that. Just that it doesn't help.

The highlighted bit is very similar to online forums. There are generally either 5* or 1* reviews, either the product is the best thing since sliced bread or the pits.  I was looking for something on amazon the other day, and the rave/poor reviews were either from fanatical fan boy types who just said 'best buy ever' or from the perpetually miserable saying 'it would be good if it had......., and it doesn't so it is no good'.

Completely agree. They are very similar. There will usually be negative reviews for very good products, but usually in the minority. Every now and then you see 1 star rating amongst a host of 5 star ratings, and that can be down to an isolated bad customer experience (that can happen at any game) or it could be down to a personal agenda. I do know other sellers of the same or competing products do like to try and put a spanner in the works by writing negative reviews, or/and awarding low stars.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why would regional fans want to harm their own regions?

You're mental.

They don't, but some, the few, do so anyway.

Look, if I want to invest some of my hard earned cash in a product, I don't just take the word of the owners on how wonderful that product is. I do go online and check out what the customers have to say about it. I specifically go to online forums where I can read the reviews of those customers before I decide that it's the right purchase for me. And that will be based on positive/negative reviews. A more obvious example is the customer reviews on Amazon or ebay. It's those customers reviews that can sell the product to me.

The supporters can act as sales people for their clubs. Not many sales people will sell many products by rubbishing the product.

I'm not saying that it is all down to negative comments online, Chunky. It's far more complex than that. Just that it doesn't help.

You said it has weakened the pro12. There is not a shred of evidence that welsh regional fans have weakened the pro12. As the last half hour of our lives has proved.

Anything that has a negative impact on the Regions weakens Pro 12, just as much as anything that has a negative impact on the Provinces weakens Pro 12. You have a big spoon, Chunky, but no paddle

LeinsterFan4life wrote:So Leinster have made every Pro12 final to date (with crowds averaging around 18k) because we treat the league with contempt? Just because they want to win a HC doesn't mean they don't care about the league.

No, that is because you operate with twice the budget that other teams in the league do. Thus are able to be at the top of the league even when resting your Irish internationals.

Munchkin wrote:

Anything that has a negative impact on the Regions weakens Pro 12

But welsh regional fans don't have a negative impact on the regions. They have a positive effect. Obviously.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Anything that has a negative impact on the Regions weakens Pro 12

But welsh regional fans don't have a negative impact on the regions. They have a positive effect. Obviously.

Investing their money in the product is a positive. Rubbishing the product is a negative that outweighs the positive. Some big spending customers get barred from pubs you know....

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:So Leinster have made every Pro12 final to date (with crowds averaging around 18k) because we treat the league with contempt? Just because they want to win a HC doesn't mean they don't care about the league.

No, that is because you operate with twice the budget that other teams in the league do. Thus are able to be at the top of the league even when resting your Irish internationals.

Oh right so no matter how well Irish teams do in the league and no matter how healthy the crowds are, it just can't be that we want to do well in the league.

Please don't bring up the "resting players" argument again as that has already been explained to you numerous times as to why players HAVE to be rested. If you want to talk about restructuring the season to allow more players to play in the league then fire away.

Do one of the stat people know where you can find the number of travelling fans each team brings (on average) and how that effects the attendances of games?

Munchkin wrote:Rubbishing the product is a negative that outweighs the positive. .

For which you have not one shred of evidence in this context.

I could say "The four regional supporters clubs have increased online prescence in the last 2 years, therefore this has strengthened the 4 brands and naturally increased regional fanbases as a result"

But there would be not a shred of evidence for it, even though it is more likely to be true than your absurd "Chunky Norwich wrote some nasty things about the league on the internet that weakened the pro12" claim.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Rubbishing the product is a negative that outweighs the positive. .

For which you have not one shred of evidence in this context.

I could say "The four regional supporters clubs have increased online prescence in the last 2 years, therefore this has strengthened the 4 brands and naturally increased regional fanbases as a result"

But there would be not a shred of evidence for it, even though it is more likely to be true than your absurd "Chunky Norwich wrote some nasty things about the league on the internet that weakened the pro12" claim.

The supporters groups definitely improved their presence to the public over the last few seasons and you can prove it. During the civil war they even got coverage on the BBC website.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Rubbishing the product is a negative that outweighs the positive. .

For which you have not one shred of evidence in this context.

I could say "The four regional supporters clubs have increased online prescence in the last 2 years, therefore this has strengthened the 4 brands and naturally increased regional fanbases as a result"

But there would be not a shred of evidence for it, even though it is more likely to be true than your absurd "Chunky Norwich wrote some nasty things about the league on the internet that weakened the pro12" claim.

I would think "Rubbishing the product is a negative that outweighs the positive." is a universally accepted truth in business. Not for you obviously, because you either fail to understand the concept, or refuse to accept according to your own agenda.

Munchkin wrote:

I would think "Rubbishing the product is a negative that outweighs the positive." is a universally accepted truth in business. Not for you obviously, because you either fail to understand the concept, or refuse to accept according to your own agenda.

But it's me. Little Chunky Norwich that is rubbishing it. On an internet forum. It's not like the regions have released a press release.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:So Leinster have made every Pro12 final to date (with crowds averaging around 18k) because we treat the league with contempt? Just because they want to win a HC doesn't mean they don't care about the league.

No, that is because you operate with twice the budget that other teams in the league do. Thus are able to be at the top of the league even when resting your Irish internationals.

Oh right so no matter how well Irish teams do in the league and no matter how healthy the crowds are, it just can't be that we want to do well in the league.

Please don't bring up the "resting players" argument again as that has already been explained to you numerous times as to why players HAVE to be rested. If you want to talk about restructuring the season to allow more players to play in the league then fire away.

Ah well, that all right then, you just keep prioritising the scraps that the French and English throw you from their table, you keep rolling out the red carpet every time they come to town, and when you go to their place, make sure you only take the best and treat them with none of the contempt they have treated you throughout the whole European debacle.

So, whilst your at it, keep using the Pro12 as a nursery for your players, yep, the Pro12, Ireland's favourite development league.

Are Ireland the only Union in the world that forbids it's top players from playing at Christmas time?

Munchkin wrote: refuse to accept according to your own agenda.

That's a bit rich coming from supporters who refuse to accept any responsibility for the damage they have done to the league since it's inception.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

I would think "Rubbishing the product is a negative that outweighs the positive." is a universally accepted truth in business. Not for you obviously, because you either fail to understand the concept, or refuse to accept according to your own agenda.

But it's me. Little Chunky Norwich that is rubbishing it. On an internet forum. It's not like the regions have released a press release.

The Regions aren't out to rubbish their own product, and neither are the majority of those who support the Regions. It's the few online terminally negative who shout loud enough to be heard. It only takes a few to shout loud enough to drown out reason, and unfortunately create the perception that the few are many.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote: refuse to accept according to your own agenda.

That's a bit rich coming from supporters who refuse to accept any responsibility for the damage they have done to the league since it's inception.

That makes no sense whatsoever, LD. Logic not your strong suit?

Chunky Norwich wrote:Are Ireland the only Union in the world that forbids it's top players from playing at Christmas time?

All I know is that the Munster Leinster match still managed to get 25k to Thomand without the Irish internationals, at Christmas. Sponsors and tv don't care who is playing its abput how many are watching. It would be nice to have the internationals more but a total restructuring of the season would be needed.

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote: refuse to accept according to your own agenda.

That's a bit rich coming from supporters who refuse to accept any responsibility for the damage they have done to the league since it's inception.

That makes no sense whatsoever, LD. Logic not your strong suit?

Well, since the league has been formed, the IRFU has used it as a development tool for their non internationals, and at the same time prioritising Europe over the league, but the Irish on here refuse to accept that, where is the lack of logic in that ?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:It would be nice to have the internationals more but a total restructuring of the season would be needed.

I agree, and for me there should be NO Pro12 during the AI and the 6N, but there is no international rugby during Christmas. It's one thing resting players, and it is another thing not playing them in the league for most of the season, come on, if you cannot see this then you must be really one eyed.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote: refuse to accept according to your own agenda.

That's a bit rich coming from supporters who refuse to accept any responsibility for the damage they have done to the league since it's inception.

That makes no sense whatsoever, LD. Logic not your strong suit?

Well, since the league has been formed, the IRFU has used it as a development tool for their non internationals, and at the same time prioritising Europe over the league, but the Irish on here refuse to accept that, where is the lack of logic in that ?

I don't remember seeing anyone say that we didn't want to see the provinces to win Europe first and foremost. But that doesn't mean that the provinces don't care about the league and the crowds and results show that. The provinces and the IRFU (even SKY) have done a great job in recent years of promoting the league and the perception of the league between fans is changing every year.

The HC was around before the Celtic league, that is how young this league is! and that has contributed to the Irish wanting to do well in Europe.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote: refuse to accept according to your own agenda.

That's a bit rich coming from supporters who refuse to accept any responsibility for the damage they have done to the league since it's inception.

That makes no sense whatsoever, LD. Logic not your strong suit?

Well, since the league has been formed, the IRFU has used it as a development tool for their non internationals, and at the same time prioritising Europe over the league, but the Irish on here refuse to accept that, where is the lack of logic in that ?

You might actually be right in that the IRFU have used it as a conduit for developing the Provinces and the national side, but so too all the other Unions involved. Just as the ERC was created to give the weaker nations a fighting chance to develop by competing at a much higher level, with weaker nations battling against the stronger in England and France. All good for the national game and 6 Nations as a whole.
None of that takes away from the fact that the Pro12 is a league in its own right, is very much worth competing in, does challenge the other 2 big NH leagues for European supremacy, is growing and becoming more successful and very much supported as a separate entity to that of the Championship Cup or any of the national sides. Guess for some it's all down to perception....

I'm hugely looking forward to taking on Munster at the weekend, followed by Glasgow in the next game, with no thoughts about the Championship Cup. Other than for purposes of debate

I'm a Pro 12 fan

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Are Ireland the only Union in the world that forbids it's top players from playing at Christmas time?

All I know is that the Munster Leinster match still managed to get 25k to Thomand without the Irish internationals, at Christmas. Sponsors and tv don't care who is playing its abput how many are watching. It would be nice to have the internationals more but a total restructuring of the season would be needed.

Sounds like a yes then. Maybe Lord Dowlais has a point.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I don't remember seeing anyone say that we didn't want to see the provinces to win Europe first and foremost. But that doesn't mean that the provinces don't care about the league and the crowds and results show that. The provinces and the IRFU (even SKY) have done a great job in recent years of promoting the league and the perception of the league between fans is changing every year.

The HC was around before the Celtic league, that is how young this league is! and that has contributed to the Irish wanting to do well in Europe.

You just do not see the point do you ? For years the IRFU used the league as a development tool for players, they never treated the league with the respect they should have, whether the provinces were at the top or not, the IRFU did not take the league serious, I am not saying that the fans have not, but the IRFU did not see the league the same way as the fans did, thus the IRFU have contributed to the damage that we have all caused to our league.

Oh this has certainly started to cook again since I last turned the sausages.

Don't let them burn lads...keep turning. Nothing quite like a Pro12 barbeque on a showery spring day.

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I don't remember seeing anyone say that we didn't want to see the provinces to win Europe first and foremost. But that doesn't mean that the provinces don't care about the league and the crowds and results show that. The provinces and the IRFU (even SKY) have done a great job in recent years of promoting the league and the perception of the league between fans is changing every year.

The HC was around before the Celtic league, that is how young this league is! and that has contributed to the Irish wanting to do well in Europe.

You just do not see the point do you ? For years the IRFU used the league as a development tool for players, they never treated the league with the respect they should have, whether the provinces were at the top or not, the IRFU did not take the league serious, I am not saying that the fans have not, but the IRFU did not see the league the same way as the fans did, thus the IRFU have contributed to the damage that we have all caused to our league.

You can tell them that Brian O'Driscoll didn't play a single league match in Wales during the last 6 years of his career.

But it doesn't matter. They'll ignore it. Low crowds are not due to things like this. Apparently low crowds are my fault.

I do see the point... (Even if you are continually changing you argument). Hence why I said the Provinces and the IRFU have done a good job in promoting the league and that the perception if the league is changing here in Ireland in recent years.

The fans now caring about the league is a direct result of promotion from the Provinces/IRFU!

Chunky Norwich wrote:

You can tell them that Brian O'Driscoll didn't play a single league match in Wales during the last 6 years of his career.

But it doesn't matter. They'll ignore it. Low crowds are not due to things like this. Apparently low crowds are my fault.

Welsh Regional fans didn't turn up by the thousands for Home games (Sunday or otherwise) because the Great BOD never showed? Oft told, still a crap excuse.

I certainly never, ever, ever heard any such moans in my years of listening to Welsh rugby fans fight about Clubs and Regions and Moffatt and Lewis and sponsorship and big bad WRU.

Try something else Chunky.... that one ain't worth a long shot attempt into a spittoon.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:(Even if you are continually changing you argument)

Whoa, hang on just a minute, I think you will find that I have NEVER said anything different to what I am saying here, just ask the rest of your Irish buddies on here, they will tell you, so please stop making things up to suit your argument.

Fair enough.

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

You can tell them that Brian O'Driscoll didn't play a single league match in Wales during the last 6 years of his career.

But it doesn't matter. They'll ignore it. Low crowds are not due to things like this. Apparently low crowds are my fault.

Welsh Regional fans didn't turn up by the thousands for Home games (Sunday or otherwise) because the Great BOD never showed?  Oft told, still a crap excuse.

I certainly never, ever, ever heard any such moans in my years of listening to Welsh rugby fans fight about Clubs and Regions and Moffatt and Lewis and sponsorship and big bad WRU.

Try something else Chunky.... that one ain't worth a long shot attempt into a spittoon.

Yup, low crowds are my fault, right?

SecretFly wrote:I certainly never, ever, ever heard any such moans in my years of listening to Welsh rugby fans fight about Clubs and Regions and Moffatt and Lewis and sponsorship and big bad WRU.

We are currently addressing these issues though SF, but I think you already know this, so I will ask again, what are the IRFU going to do to make improvements to OUR league ?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Yup, low crowds are my fault, right?

Yeah, low Regional crowds over the last decade are BOD' fault, right?

We can play this tennis game all day, if you want to. But tennis is a much more boring game

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Yup, low crowds are my fault, right?

Yeah, low Regional crowds over the last decade are BOD' fault, right?

We can play this tennis game all day, if you want to.  But tennis is a much more boring game

I'm happy to be put on an equal footing, rugby influence wise, as Brian O'Driscoll.

They are promoting the league through the provinces. The fans all just didn't suddenly wake up one morning and start caring who wins the league. Getting 51k to the Aviva for a league match between provinces would have been nothing more than a dream even around 2008.

That is what promting the league has done!

LeinsterFan4life wrote:They are promoting the league through the provinces. The fans all just didn't suddenly wake up one morning and start caring who wins the league. Getting 51k to the Aviva for a league match between provinces would have been nothing more than a dream even around 2008.

That is what promting the league has done!

In your own country, yes I agree, there has been lots of work done, but outside our little bubble, over the years we have had people call our league a joke, the English on here in particular have said that our league is a mickey mouse league(please do not ask me to find quotes), this is all down to a multitude of things, our in-fighting being one of them, and the IRFU putting it second to Europe another one, would you not agree ?

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I certainly never, ever, ever heard any such moans in my years of listening to Welsh rugby fans fight about Clubs and Regions and Moffatt and Lewis and sponsorship and big bad WRU.

We are currently addressing these issues though SF, but I think you already know this, so I will ask again, what are the IRFU going to do to make improvements to OUR league ?

Being  close to the play-off stages (again) with respectable crowds and playing as hard and honestly at it as their Welsh and Scottish counterparts? -  Yes?

Connacht improving noticeably within the League.    

Guinness,

Sky.  

We all know neither of those last two would likely have showed at all had the Pro12 not had European Pedigree sides in it.  You see how it pans out?  Pro12 gains EARNING potential and INTEREST for itself IF the sides in it try their damnedest  in ALL constests they are in - Europe included.

Yes I agree but who cares what they think, we have also said things about their league. The Welsh have now gotten their house in order and the Provinces are doing a good job in promoting the league. So the two issues have now been addresses have they not? (There is still a lot of work to be done of course)

SecretFly wrote:We all know neither of those last two would likely have showed at all had the Pro12 not had European Pedigree sides in it. You see how it pans out? Pro12 gains EARNING potential and INTEREST for itself IF the sides in it try their damnedest in ALL constests they are in - Europe included.

Oh, thank god for the Irish, without them those sponsors would not have come, well that explains why the league is geared to suit the Irish then.

But on a serious note, the Irish do not want the league to change, it suits them, if, heaven forbid the others teams managed to get more money and get the depth that the Irish provinces have, we might spoil their party.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Yes I agree but who cares what they think, we have also said things about their league.  The Welsh have now gotten their house in order and the Provinces are doing a good job in promoting the league. So the two issues have now been addresses have they not? (There is still a lot of work to be done of course)

So you agree then that the Irish did have a negative impact on the league over the years as well as all the other nations ?