2 English clubs in the Pro 12??

First topic message reminder :

Being reported today that London Scottish and London Welsh are being lined up to play in the pro12.....if the Italian teams don't pay money owed to the league.

Fantastic news that English teams are already touted as playing in what could be an early British and Irish League. Even if it doesn't happen, these increasingly frequent bits and bobs are only the beginning of what is to come.

SecretFly wrote:Didn't I????

Do you read the threads, Lord?


Now you - are you going to give us an answer on WHY these absurd criteria are arrived at????? No more questions back at me until you give an answer. Too many questions here and not enough answers from some.

No you have not answered the question, and to be honest you are not being very clever about it either, you are starting to remind me of David Cameron.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:It's all a conspiracy to keep the final in Ireland. It's obvious. There can be no other explanation. No way will Pro12 allow a final to be held in Wales. Ever!

Not under the current criteria's it wont, so you are right. Also, is that your answer, it is a conspiracy ?

I thought you didn't know the criteria?

You do?

Share it with us. The fine detail that none of us seem to know but heartily guess at anyway.

LordDowlais wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I don't understand why you think the "Irish" can give you a satisfactory answer.

We just want to know what you think of the criteria thats all, sheesh, why is it so hard for you to answer ?

My answer is that I don't really have an opinion on it.I've yet to see any evidence that the criteria is anything other than speculation,I also don't care enough to pursue it further but you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about it so if you follow it up then let me know what you find out I'll give you my opinion.I will however hold you to one thing,no matter what my opinion is you can't go round shouting about it as if it represents every Irish fan.I am not an elected official and I do not represent anyone other than myself.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Didn't I????

Do you read the threads, Lord?


Now you - are you going to give us an answer on WHY these absurd criteria are arrived at????? No more questions back at me until you give an answer. Too many questions here and not enough answers from some.

No you have not answered the question, and to be honest you are not being very clever about it either, you are starting to remind me of David Cameron.

I DID say what I think of criteria that would disallow any of the four Nations to host a final, you're just too damn lazy to go snoop for it.  But I ain't helping there either.  Be more active and find it - it isn't too far up there.  And then an apology might be nice, but of course I won't expect one

I also DID say WHY I think such criteria might have been arrived at.  Also up there not too far up for someone with enough energy to go look.

Now back to you.  HOW do you THINK such criteria were arrived at?  This is my third time of asking!!!!!

SecretFly wrote: HOW do you THINK such criteria were arrived at?  This is my third time of asking!!!!!

I think the criteria is carefully chosen to keep the final in Ireland as long as possible. There really isn 't any other explanation for the absurd rules. Unless you are Irish, then it just so happens to have turned out that way.

How many clubs in Europe have an 18k capacity AND two five star hotels in the town?

If it was me, I'd make the final only playable in towns that begin with "LL". That's about as fair.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:so if you follow it up then let me know

I have looked everywhere, there is nothing on the internet that shows you what the criteria is, nothing. All I can find are rules that reference you have to meet this criteria to host a final, but nothing to say what they are.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:no matter what my opinion is you can't go round shouting about it as if it represents every Irish fan.I am not an elected official and I do not represent anyone other than myself.

I have not ever done that, I am just asking what you think of these new rules brought in this year for hosting a final, that is all, nothing sinister but you Irish brethren on here would rather be all politician like and answer the question without answering the question.

I find it rather strange, that the one year it looks as though the final will not be held in Ireland due to league positions, we suddenly have this new criteria that only the branches within the IRFU can meet, thus the final is then held in Ireland/Northern Ireland by default.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:It's all a conspiracy to keep the final in Ireland. It's obvious. There can be no other explanation. No way will Pro12 allow a final to be held in Wales. Ever!

Not under the current criteria's it wont, so you are right. Also, is that your answer, it is a conspiracy ?

Yes, of course it is! Just as every fault in Welsh rugby, past and present, is the fault of the IRFU/Pro12. It's so obvious it doesn't require any thinking. In fact it's better not to really think about it, because thinking about it only causes confusion and hurts the head!

The IRFU are the ILLUMINATI. Discuss......

LordDowlais wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:so if you follow it up then let me know

I have looked everywhere, there is nothing on the internet that shows you what the criteria is, nothing. All I can find are rules that reference you have to meet this criteria to host a final, but nothing to say what they are.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:no matter what my opinion is you can't go round shouting about it as if it represents every Irish fan.I am not an elected official and I do not represent anyone other than myself.

I have not ever done that, I am just asking what you think of these new rules brought in this year for hosting a final, that is all, nothing sinister but you Irish brethren on here would rather be all politician like and answer the question without answering the question.

I find it rather strange, that the one year it looks as though the final will not be held in Ireland due to league positions, we suddenly have this new criteria that only the branches within the IRFU can meet, thus the final is then held in Ireland/Northern Ireland by default.

What is the criteria,show me an official copy of it and if it turns out that what you say is true then I'll agree that's wrong.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
What is the criteria,show me an official copy of it and if it turns out that what you say is true then I'll agree that's wrong.

Why wouldn't you believe what the Ospreys have said about the eligibility rules? Why on earth would they lie?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote: HOW do you THINK such criteria were arrived at?  This is my third time of asking!!!!!

I think the criteria is carefully chosen to keep the final in Ireland as long as possible. There really isn 't any other explanation for the absurd rules. Unless you are Irish, then it just so happens to have turned out that way.

How many clubs in Europe have an 18k capacity AND two five star hotels in the town?

If it was me, I'd make the final only playable in towns that begin with "LL". That's about as fair.

That's fine. That's what you THINK of the criteria. Good. One down. (even though you're not really the guy I asked the question of - to date still waiting on his responses).

But another bit to go. Now How do you think such a pro-Irish decision was made?

SecretFly wrote:I DID say what I think of criteria that would disallow any of the four Nations to host a final, you're just too damn lazy to go snoop for it. But I ain't helping there either. Be more active and find it - it isn't too far up there. And then an apology might be nice, but of course I won't expect one

No you didn't you said this:-

SecretFly wrote:There were meetings?  Discussions on the pros and cons. Everyone that has a vote voted for them?

That does not answer the question.

SecretFly wrote:Now back to you. HOW do you THINK such criteria were arrived at?

I think they were all in the Dublin office, and they have decided what would be the best way to keep the sponsors happy, and the whole Irishness of the league happy, and the best way to keep the status quo.

SecretFly wrote:

Now How do you think such a pro-Irish decision was made?

Because the Irish have enough sway to get their way (including the influence of Roger Lewis)
Because the company is based in Ireland
Because the Chief Exec is Irish
Because the Irish run the Pro12

Chunky Norwich wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
What is the criteria,show me an official copy of it and if it turns out that what you say is true then I'll agree that's wrong.

Why wouldn't you believe what the Ospreys have said about the eligibility rules? Why on earth would they lie?

Why would anyone lie????

I thought this was a 'who lies most?' thread.

The Ospreys fans said they were told that THIS YEAR the Pro12 People (of which I assume there are Welsh members???  - Yes??? No???) - THIS YEAR the Pro12 people believed it would not be right to have National Stadiums used for the final, based on paltry crowd predictions and it not looking good on TEEVEE!  Are we all clear now on what the Ospreys fans said they were told?  And are we clearer that nobody disagrees with them or calls them liars??

Good.

The friction is that some seem to think this is proof positive that the dirty IRFU alone dictated that never shall a Pro12 final be held in any of the other Nations or in National Stadiums.

Are we all clear on the line of friction too??

Good.

I await for the Pantomime line to come back at me now sharply:  "OH NO WE'RE NOT!!!!"

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
What is the criteria,show me an official copy of it and if it turns out that what you say is true then I'll agree that's wrong.

Why wouldn't you believe what the Ospreys have said about the eligibility rules? Why on earth would they lie?

Why would anyone lie????

I thought this was a 'who lies most?' thread.

The Ospreys fans said they were told that THIS YEAR the Pro12 People (of which I assume there are Welsh members???  - Yes??? No???) - THIS YEAR the Pro12 people believed it would not be right to have National Stadiums used for the final, based on paltry crowd predictions and it not looking good on TEEVEE!  Are we all clear now on what the Ospreys fans said they were told?  And are we clearer that nobody disagrees with them or calls them liars??

Good.

The friction is that some seem to think this is proof positive that the dirty IRFU alone dictated that never shall a Pro12 final be held in any of the other Nations or in National Stadiums.

Are we all clear on the line of friction too??

Good.

I await for the Pantomime line to come back at me now sharply:  "OH NO WE'RE NOT!!!!"

Absolutely pathetic.

Why could a final not be played at City of Cardiff Stadium?

I thought the only criterea was you had to have a stadium with a capacity over 18k? at least that is what it used to be...

IF they changed it to ensure Ireland hosts the final is the answer not obvious as to why they want to keep the finals in Ireland? I mean so obvious that there shouldn't be a debate about it.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I DID say what I think of criteria that would disallow any of the four Nations to host a final, you're just too damn lazy to go snoop for it.  But I ain't helping there either.  Be more active and find it - it isn't too far up there.  And then an apology might be nice, but of course I won't expect one

No you didn't you said this:-

SecretFly wrote:There were meetings?  Discussions on the pros and cons. Everyone that has a vote voted for them?

That does not answer the question.

SecretFly wrote:Now back to you.  HOW do you THINK such criteria were arrived at?

I think they were all in the Dublin office, and they have decided what would be the best way to keep the sponsors happy, and the whole Irishness of the league happy, and the best way to keep the status quo.

I'm not going to spoon feed you Lord. Work harder at finding what I THINK of such a criteria that would ban National Stadiums and deny other Nations from hosting a final. Work harder. You're not going to be handed evidence on any silver plate.

And the highlighted bit is my Very answer to the second bit. That's how the Decisions were made. People in authority talking and making decisions. That's how any such criteria is arrived at.

Where-were-the Welsh? The Welsh agreed to an Irish-way? How meek of them and how much against their nature to be so meek, considering last year's shenanigans.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
What is the criteria,show me an official copy of it and if it turns out that what you say is true then I'll agree that's wrong.

Why wouldn't you believe what the Ospreys have said about the eligibility rules? Why on earth would they lie?

Why would anyone lie????

I thought this was a 'who lies most?' thread.

The Ospreys fans said they were told that THIS YEAR the Pro12 People (of which I assume there are Welsh members???  - Yes??? No???) - THIS YEAR the Pro12 people believed it would not be right to have National Stadiums used for the final, based on paltry crowd predictions and it not looking good on TEEVEE!  Are we all clear now on what the Ospreys fans said they were told?  And are we clearer that nobody disagrees with them or calls them liars??

Good.

The friction is that some seem to think this is proof positive that the dirty IRFU alone dictated that never shall a Pro12 final be held in any of the other Nations or in National Stadiums.

Are we all clear on the line of friction too??

Good.

I await for the Pantomime line to come back at me now sharply:  "OH NO WE'RE NOT!!!!"

Absolutely pathetic.

You really are a bizarre character, Chunky. You read English and still act alien. Same old repeat lines used when nothing left to say. "Absolutely pathetic" - how many times have I heard that rumbled back at me. It means that's another attempt of yours hitting the dust.

LondonTiger wrote:Why could a final not be played at City of Cardiff Stadium?

Championship football play offs pontetial.

SecretFly wrote:

You really are a bizarre character, Chunky.  You read English and still act alien.  Same old repeat lines used when nothing left to say.  "Absolutely pathetic" - how many times have I heard that rumbled back at me.  It means that's another attempt of yours hitting the dust.

Your post is garbled nonsense. It's unitelligible swill.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Why could a final not be played at City of Cardiff Stadium?

Championship football play offs pontetial.

Except the Semi final play-offs end two weeks before the Pro12 final

LondonTiger wrote:Why could a final not be played at City of Cardiff Stadium?

There are not TWO 5 star hotels close enough to it.

I don't remember reading that the 2 5 Star hotels must be close to the grounds, LD. I'm not saying you're wrong, but could you post the official criteria here?

Munchkin wrote:I don't remember reading that the 2 5 Star hotels must be close to the grounds, LD. I'm not saying you're wrong, but could you post the official criteria here?

I cannot, as I cannot find it on the web.

LondonTiger wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Why could a final not be played at City of Cardiff Stadium?

Championship football play offs pontetial.

Except the Semi final play-offs end two weeks before the Pro12 final

No idea then. Perhaps it's a possibility. Do the home town club have to put in £100k commitment every year if they wish to host it? If so, I'm not sure why Cardiff rugby would financially commit to 100k to hold it in the football stadium.

Can someone correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there equal representatives of all the four nations in the PRO12 running it? So how do the Irish dominate it - any proposal by the Irish would need at least one of the others on side to pass and probably at least two, this imtimates that if the IRFU had proposed moving the finals to Ireland in perpetuity then at least two of the others went with it, whilst presumably the WRU reps were left crying in the corner at the injustice of it all?

Would it be more rational to suggest that there's an economic interest dominating this - holding the final in Belfast means a sold out ground (without free tickets) whoever gets there so the PRO12 get the money, whereas holding it in the Millenium or Murrayfield or the Aviva (Aviva maybe different if it's a Leinster v other province final) would mean opening a very large stadium with all the costs that entails for an event which might only sell 50-75% of the tickets (again depending on who is playing)?

Munchkin wrote:I don't remember reading that the 2 5 Star hotels must be close to the grounds, LD. I'm not saying you're wrong, but could you post the official criteria here?

They're for the teams. So one would think the teams would want to stay in the vicinity of the ground.

Irish Londoner wrote:presumably the WRU reps were left crying in the corner at the injustice of it all?

Not when you realise who the WRU rep was. And when the new chairman was installed.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I don't remember reading that the 2 5 Star hotels must be close to the grounds, LD. I'm not saying you're wrong, but could you post the official criteria here?

They're for the teams. So one would think the teams would want to stay in the vicinity of the ground.

Aye, and Wales is so huge it would take hours and hours to travel from one side to the next. Not good enough, Chunky. Try again.

Munchkin wrote:
Aye, and Wales is so huge it would take hours and hours to travel from one side to the next. Not good enough, Chunky. Try again.

It took people 3 hours to get from Swansea to Cardiff this morning.

#JustSaying

So why won't the Pro 12 put the commercial conditions of the final venue on their website?

Why do we know more about them from the Ospreys than the official body?

Irish Londoner wrote:Can someone correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there equal representatives of all the four nations in the PRO12 running it? So how do the Irish dominate it - any proposal by the Irish would need at least one of the others on side to pass and probably at least two, this imtimates that if the IRFU had proposed moving the finals to Ireland in perpetuity then at least two of the others went with it, whilst presumably the WRU reps were left crying in the corner at the injustice of it all?

Would it be more rational to suggest that there's an economic interest dominating this - holding the final in Belfast means a sold out ground (without free tickets) whoever gets there so the PRO12 get the money, whereas holding it in the Millenium or Murrayfield or the Aviva (Aviva maybe different if it's a Leinster v other province final) would mean opening a very large stadium with all the costs that entails for an event which might only sell 50-75% of the tickets (again depending on who is playing)?

You have people on here complaining about the amount the league gets in terms of sponsorship and TV and at the same time they want the final to be played in Wales... In a half empty stadium. That would really appeal to any new potential sponsors eh?

Munchkin wrote:Aye, and Wales is so huge it would take hours and hours to travel from one side to the next. Not good enough, Chunky. Try again.

It does not matter how big Wales is, if they are not in the vicinity that the criteria states, then you cannot get the final.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
Aye, and Wales is so huge it would take hours and hours to travel from one side to the next. Not good enough, Chunky. Try again.

It took people 3 hours to get from Swansea to Cardiff this morning.

#JustSaying

Aye, but that's you on your pedal power trike #just saying

So, the thing to do would be to find out where all 5 Star hotels are in proximity to all potential grounds. Now you're the one who is convinced the criteria can't be met in Wales, so you really should have all the relevant facts and figures in front of you.

Post em, Chunky.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:You have people on here complaining about the amount the league gets in terms of sponsorship and TV and at the same time they want the final to be played in Wales... In a half empty stadium. That would really appeal to any new potential sponsors eh?

Look lets get one thing straight here, yes I am peeved off that the final is not in Wales, because at the start of the season, when Ospreys were flying, I was hoping that there would be a final in Wales that I could go to/look forward to. But I for one would have been happy if the Pro12 came out and said that for commercial reasons we are holding it in Belfast because of they wanted to maximise what they could make , but NO. They came out with this criteria bollox that none of us can look at, and we only get news of it from our regions, and our regions saying that it was pointless bidding as we would not meet this criteria. Without this criteria set in stone, that we can all look at, what is to stop it being changed again so that if we do get the right amount of 5 start hotels near a stadium that fits the bill, it will not be changed to keep the status quo.

Surely Celtic Manor would be ok to host a team for a Cardiff final?

LondonTiger wrote:Surely Celtic Manor would be ok to host a team for a Cardiff final?

Its too far away.

Why would the Ospreys not bid for the final? Were they worried that they couldn't fill the stadium if they didn't happen to be in it, and so incur a loss? Maybe they did bid?

The reason the Pro12 final now has to be sold beforehand is because the EPCR have been useless at organising anything. They have re-jigged the season and the Pro12 has had to react to that after the season had already started.

Isn't it great that some of the Pro12 teams had the requisite dangly bits to bid for a risky venture that they hadn't budgeted for? That kind of support and investment in the League is no doubt what reassures sponsors that they're not backing a League with a 'poor me' mentality, and they can be sanguine about the future.

Let's hope there are more teams from all the nations in the future who are prepared to back the brand and put on a show.

I love the fact that the All Blacks have stayed at the Hilton, Cardiff every year for as long as I can remember - but it's deemed not good enough for the likes of Isaac Boss.

Chunky Norwich wrote:So why won't the Pro 12 put the commercial conditions of the final venue on their website?

Why do we know more about them from the Ospreys than the official body?

Coz the Pro 12 is Irish and we don't know how to write???

Is that simple enough English for you there, Chunky?

The only reason I can write is because I must have a foreign great grand parent or something.

The Great Aukster wrote:Why would the Ospreys not bid for the final? Were they worried that they couldn't fill the stadium if they didn't happen to be in it, and so incur a loss? Maybe they did bid?

The Ospreys were so against the concept of changing the venue mid season that they felt applying would be hypocritical. Good on 'em. Presumably they wouldn't have had a chance anyway as they have no 5 star hotels near. Maybe Jury's can build one for them?

Chunky Norwich wrote:I love the fact that the All Blacks have stayed at the Hilton, Cardiff every year for as long as I can remember -  but it's deemed not good enough for the likes of Isaac Boss.

Isaac Boss wouldn't be caught dead playing a Pro12 game in Wales. He's a first teamer.

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:So why won't the Pro 12 put the commercial conditions of the final venue on their website?

Why do we know more about them from the Ospreys than the official body?

Coz the Pro 12 is Irish and we don't know how to write???

Is that simple enough English for you there, Chunky?

The only reason I can write is because I must have a foreign great grand parent or something.

This post brings what exactly to the debate?

I have noticed on here that when our Irish friends cannot answer or find that we might have a point, they start being sarcastic, for me when you start being sarcastic you start losing the debate.

You continually mock the Pro12...I've joined you.

The two of us together...we'll tell everybody how much of a joke the League is.

Why do you want me to be serious?  You've said you can't compute serious because it uses too many words.  So let's do what you do best - mock everything.  I'm game.

Where does it say anything about 5 star hotels? I can't find it...

Are the two 5 Stars actually for the teams or for the corporates?
If the criteria really meant that no Region could host a final in wales, it's strange that the Ospreys didn't highlight that as an issue when rejecting putting in a bid this season, but remain open to entering a bid next season.

SecretFly wrote:You continually mock the Pro12...I've joined you.

There you go again, saying things that I have never said. I would never mock the Pro12 I like the Pro12, I would just like to get away from all the accusations of potential bias. I want to see it better, I want to see it with our best players on show every week, I want a better product for all of us, the Irish members on here want to keep it the way it is, they want to keep the status quo.

Munchkin wrote:Are the two 5 Stars actually for the teams or for the corporates?
If the criteria really meant that no Region could host a final in wales, it's strange that the Ospreys didn't highlight that as an issue when rejecting putting in a bid this season, but remain open to entering a bid next season.

Perhaps they are thinking of using the MS, after all, they might re-consider using national stadiums next year.