2 English clubs in the Pro 12??

by Chunky Norwich Sun May 03, 2015 9:50 pm

First topic message reminder :

Being reported today that London Scottish and London Welsh are being lined up to play in the pro12.....if the Italian teams don't pay money owed to the league.

Fantastic news that English teams are already touted as playing in what could be an early British and Irish League. Even if it doesn't happen, these increasingly frequent bits and bobs are only the beginning of what is to come.

by SecretFly Wed May 06, 2015 11:50 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:You continually mock the Pro12...I've joined you.

There you go again, saying things that I have never said. I would never mock the Pro12 I like the Pro12, I would just like to get away from all the accusations of potential bias. I want to see it better, I want to see it with our best players on show every week, I want a better product for all of us, the Irish members on here want to keep it the way it is, they want to keep the status quo.

There you go again jumping at things that might not look so bad if you allow that sometimes delay times in posting can put posts out of line.

The post was directed to Chunky not you.

by Sin é Wed May 06, 2015 11:53 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Where does it say anything about 5 star hotels? I can't find it...

It was mentioned way back. The Final is the Sponsor's Day - so presumably its they who need a 5* Hotel for their corporate entertainment. I'd imagine they would also want it to be close to good restaurants, entertainment etc. Guinness spend a lot of money on their CI.

by Guest Wed May 06, 2015 11:55 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Are the two 5 Stars actually for the teams or for the corporates?
If the criteria really meant that no Region could host a final in wales, it's strange that the Ospreys didn't highlight that as an issue when rejecting putting in a bid this season, but remain open to entering a bid next season.

Perhaps they are thinking of using the MS, after all, they might re-consider using national stadiums next year.

Maybe, but their response was as to why they did not enter a bid this season. No mention of not meeting the criteria. Now if it's true that they couldn't meet the criteria then they would surely have put that at the top of their list for not bidding?

by LeinsterFan4life Wed May 06, 2015 11:55 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:You continually mock the Pro12...I've joined you.

There you go again, saying things that I have never said. I would never mock the Pro12 I like the Pro12, I would just like to get away from all the accusations of potential bias. I want to see it better, I want to see it with our best players on show every week, I want a better product for all of us, the Irish members on here want to keep it the way it is, they want to keep the status quo.

How many times have I (along with others) on here said they would love to see the first string players play more? I have even given some ideas on a slight restructuring of the season in order to allow more internationals play.

You take one guys view on here and think he represents every Irish fan. You should go on a Munster fourm or even Leinster one and see all the different views Irish fans have on the Pro 12.

by Chunky Norwich Wed May 06, 2015 11:56 pm

Sin é wrote: The Final is the Sponsor's Day - so presumably its they who need a 5* Hotel for their corporate entertainment.

Not according to the Ospreys, who have probably been more of a part in negotiations than yourself.

by SecretFly Wed May 06, 2015 11:59 pm

Anyway, we've just had a few pages of heated debate on 'criteria' that virtually everyone admits they haven't seen, can't find and only have the merest of hearsay to go on based on a tiny snippet (Ospreys chatting to the Pro12 guy)?

Yet people are talking about hotel rooms, and 5 stars, and the IRFU knifing the other partners in the back, and Guinness saying it'll quit if Belfast don't get to host the final, and the Welsh not phoning nobody to give out stink when they find that once again the Irish are creating the Pro12 in their own image....and the Welsh not boycotting nobody when they think their equal rights are being infringed???

All that, and not one of us have actually seen detailed official 'criteria' for hosting a Pro12 final?

We should all pat ourselves on the back. Good show!

by LordDowlais Thu May 07, 2015 12:01 am

Ok, perhaps I jumped to the wrong conclusion in reply to SF post, if so then I apologise. But not one of our Irish members on here has given an honest, non sarcastic answer to the question Chunky posted on here earlier. So I will ask it again. What are the thoughts of the Irish as regards to this new criteria for hosting the finals ? Also I would also like to ask. Why do you think that the Pro12 have not made these criteria's open for the public to peruse over ?

by SecretFly Thu May 07, 2015 12:02 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Sin é wrote: The Final is the Sponsor's Day - so presumably its they who need a 5* Hotel for their corporate entertainment.

Not according to the Ospreys, who have probably been more of a part in negotiations than yourself.

They did good work it seems. Agree to something you detest?

by The Great Aukster Thu May 07, 2015 12:02 am

I find it amazing how Welsh youth were so obsessed with Brian O'Driscoll that his absence from playing away games with Leinster for the last six years of his career has by all accounts practically drowned Welsh rugby in their tears of disappointment. Do they have no heroes of their own?

It is also amazing that he has missed more games in Ireland during the same period and yet the Irish youth do not seem to have been deterred from attending games at all, in fact the opposite happened. Could it be that since rugby is a team game where the team performance is everything, they're not especially bothered about the mere attendance of an icon?

Considering Leinster missed their talisman playing away in Wales for those last six years of his career, it is interesting that Leinster still managed a 13W, 2D, 9L record. So the evidence points to team performance being the key attractor to sponsors and fans rather than the presence of some icon.

Given that BOD has now retired, it is guaranteed that he will not be seen playing for Leinster in Wales so maybe it's time for the regions there to come up with a plan B to attract more fans?

by LordDowlais Thu May 07, 2015 12:06 am

BOD was just used as an example. Anyway, I do not blame the Irish for our low attendances, I blame the Irish for their part in which we all played, when damaging the image of our league since it's inception.

by LeinsterFan4life Thu May 07, 2015 12:06 am

LD none of us know for sure what the criteria is because there still hasn't been a link provided to this supposed criteria. Once it has been confirned then everyone can start debating it.

by Guest Thu May 07, 2015 12:06 am

LordDowlais wrote:Ok, perhaps I jumped to the wrong conclusion in reply to SF post, if so then I apologise. But not one of our Irish members on here has given an honest, non sarcastic answer to the question Chunky posted on here earlier. So I will ask it again. What are the thoughts of the Irish as regards to this new criteria for hosting the finals ? Also I would also like to ask. Why do you think that the Pro12 have not made these criteria's open for the public to peruse over ?

What new criteria? I asked you to post it, and you tell me you can't find anything online. Fly is right. None of us actually know what the specific criteria is.
Some of us have been answering. For my part I want to know why you and Chunky think that whatever the criteria is can't be met in Wales. And also why it is that the Regions don't seem to have an issue with this supposed criteria? Especially the Ospreys who when giving their reason for not entering a bid, didn't even mention the supposed fact that they fail the criteria. That would be astounding if true.......

by SecretFly Thu May 07, 2015 12:08 am

LordDowlais wrote:Ok, perhaps I jumped to the wrong conclusion in reply to SF post, if so then I apologise. But not one of our Irish members on here has given an honest, non sarcastic answer to the question Chunky posted on here earlier. So I will ask it again. What are the thoughts of the Irish as regards to this new criteria for hosting the finals ? Also I would also like to ask. Why do you think that the Pro12 have not made these criteria's open for the public to peruse over ?

First highlight: I did! You still didn't find it. To clarify, I commented honestly on a perceived aspect of a presumed criteria

Second Highlight: How the hell can someone actually comment on their honest thoughts on something you admit few if any have seen?

What is the actual criteria - in official print? We don't know - few have seen it.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu May 07, 2015 12:25 am

Lads lads. What ARE the criteria. What IS the criterion.

Basic English. You are all at it. Like people not realizing that the singular of media is medium.

And before you accuse me of pedantry may I remind you that you are all arguing over an unseen set of rules.

by Sin é Thu May 07, 2015 12:27 am

What are the thoughts of the Irish as regards to this new criteria for hosting the finals ?

Here is what I think.

1. Sponsors want to know well before hand where the final is going to be in plenty of time for them to arrange corporate entertainment. (new sponsor this year)

2. The Pro12 League didn't want the final being played in an empty stadium (i.e., if the Final was Ulster v Glasgow in Swansea, there might not be a lot of people at it.

3. Ulster/Belfast put a bid in (which includes arranging festivities over the weekend by Belfast/NI Tourism).

4. They seem to have got the right venue as Ravenhill (18K) is sold out (bar the 2,000 held in reserve for the fans of the participating teams.

Gerald Davies, chairman of the board of Celtic Rugby must have approved of this. Ask him what the rules are.

by LordDowlais Thu May 07, 2015 12:30 am

I am only going by what has been said by the Ospreys hierarchy, why would they openly lie to the public ?

by asoreleftshoulder Thu May 07, 2015 12:40 am

LordDowlais wrote:I am only going by what has been said by the Ospreys hierarchy, why would they openly lie to the public ?

Can you at least tell us what they said then.

edit: Okay a quick google search and I found this http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/ospreys-reveal-declined-put-liberty-8527659

This quote would appear to refute any suggestion that they wouldn't have been able to host the tourney if they had decided to bid.

“We were invited to bid, but felt it would be hypocritical to do so given our stated position on the proposal of a neutral venue.

“Given the financial guarantee required for any bid, it would require a joined-up proposal from stadium management and local authority which, at this time, despite healthier position of business, would not be in our best interests.”

by SecretFly Thu May 07, 2015 12:44 am

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Lads lads. What ARE the criteria. What IS the criterion.

Basic English. You are all at it. Like people not realizing that the singular of media is medium.

And before you accuse me of pedantry[,] may I remind you that you are all arguing over an unseen set of rules.

by LordDowlais Thu May 07, 2015 12:46 am

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I am only going by what has been said by the Ospreys hierarchy, why would they openly lie to the public ?

Can you at least tell us what they said then.

I cannot remember everything, but it was along the lines of them hypocritical if they went ahead and applied for it, and it was then said that Glasgow's bid failed because of such and such, and it all came out on the day all this fuss was mentioned. You will have to ask our resident Ospreys expert (wayne) for all the details.

by asoreleftshoulder Thu May 07, 2015 12:50 am

LordDowlais wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I am only going by what has been said by the Ospreys hierarchy, why would they openly lie to the public ?

Can you at least tell us what they said then.

I cannot remember everything, but it was along the lines of them hypocritical if they went ahead and applied for it, and it was then said that Glasgow's bid failed because of such and such, and it all came out on the day all this fuss was mentioned. You will have to ask our resident Ospreys expert (wayne) for all the details.

I edited my post when I found an article with some details of what they said.I now really don't understand what your objection is,the O's were invited to bid and chose not to do so,(I assume) they wouldn't have been invited to bid if they couldn't actually win,so what's the problem?

For the record I agree with the O's stance,the team finishing top should have home advantage if they win their semi-final.

by Guest Thu May 07, 2015 12:52 am

LD, Ospreys said that they didn't bid because the change was late. I don't ever remember them mentioning why Glasgow's bid failed. I think you made that up. They also never mentioned not being able to meet the criteria. I asked you at least twice why this might be and you haven't yet replied.

Ospreys also said they might enter a bid once they review how it works out this season....

by The Great Aukster Thu May 07, 2015 12:54 am

I haven't seen the criteria but I'll make some assumptions so that I can give my seemingly much sought after opinion.

1. 18k minimum capacity stadium
Sounds sensible to me. It's large enough to create an event for sponsors but small enough to sell if the home team aren't in the final.

2. Two 5 star hotels
This can have nothing to do with numbers, otherwise it would stipulate a number be accommodated. So I'm guessing that this criterion is included to ensure the two teams do not have to be ensconced in the same hotel either before or after the game. If there are two identically rated hotels then neither team can claim they have not been treated exactly the same as the other.
While this might be a laudable aspiration it is totally daft IMO. If there is a home club in the final, they will not use the hotel at all so there is a 1 in 4 chance only one is needed.
Secondly the point should be about equality and choice. A range of options should be provided not restricted to 5* hotels. Some teams may wish to be close to the ground, others away from it. Some in the city centre, others near the airport. If there is a conflict where two teams want the same rooms, then there are well tested means of resolving those issues - e.g. whomever finished higher in the League season.

3. Must be in Ireland
Obviously this is the most important criterion that is totally immutable because it just is. Ireland have to keep everyone else under their Jack (o'lantern) boots, otherwise befaith and begorragh the little people will take away the magic dust that makes everything green, so they will, so they will.

by SecretFly Thu May 07, 2015 12:59 am

LordDowlais wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I am only going by what has been said by the Ospreys hierarchy, why would they openly lie to the public ?

Can you at least tell us what they said then.

I cannot remember everything, but it was along the lines of them hypocritical if they went ahead and applied for it, and it was then said that Glasgow's bid failed because of such and such, and it all came out on the day all this fuss was mentioned. You will have to ask our resident Ospreys expert (wayne) for all the details.

Now.

You won't know the answers to these questions but they are important questions:

Did PRW not step in as a unit to fight Osprey's case and stridently say that they'd withhold Regional approval for criteriasises until they were given a fair deal all round on conditions required for holding a Pro12 final?

Did the WRU not call halt to the criteriesses meetings and insist a more lenient set of criteria were needed so that all four Nations had the chance to host a Pro12 final?

Who commanded that criteriors were brought into force that would exclude Scotland, Wales and Italy from holding a Pro12 final this year?

Who attends the criterizised meetings? Who attends the meetings that decide what happens in Pro12? Who did attend these meetings? Who decided? Names.

by LordDowlais Thu May 07, 2015 2:00 am

Well done SF, more sarcasm. There is no debating with the Irish on this forum, you are so far up your own rear ends it's not even funny. I will just remember the seven deadly sins of being an Irish rugby supporter I posted on another thread to keep my sanity.

by Guest Thu May 07, 2015 2:02 am

If you want debate try answering some questions yourself Very Happy

by Chunky Norwich Thu May 07, 2015 2:05 am

LordDowlais wrote:Well done SF, more sarcasm..

It's not even that. It's just irrelevant bunkum. I think he's trying to be amusing too, which is all the more worrying.

by Guest Thu May 07, 2015 2:07 am

So, Chunky, where are all your fact and figures which prove that the Regions can't hold a final?

by LordDowlais Thu May 07, 2015 2:08 am

Munchkin wrote:If you want debate try answering some questions yourself

What questions have I not answered ?

by Guest Thu May 07, 2015 2:10 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:If you want debate try answering some questions yourself

What questions have I not answered ?

Why did Ospreys not mention not being able to host a final because they fail the required criteria?

by Pot Hale Thu May 07, 2015 2:11 am

LordDowlais wrote:Ok, perhaps I jumped to the wrong conclusion in reply to SF post, if so then I apologise. But not one of our Irish members on here has given an honest, non sarcastic answer to the question Chunky posted on here earlier. So I will ask it again. What are the thoughts of the Irish as regards to this new criteria for hosting the finals ? Also I would also like to ask. Why do you think that the Pro12 have not made these criteria's open for the public to peruse over ?

I'll give you a reply, LD.

First of all, I would say that the IRFU and the provinces have all treated the Pro12 with complete contempt since 1998 up to the present day. No exceptions. It is not even a development league, simply a means to get into Euro competitions - either H cup or Challenge Cup. Winning the league is simply a bauble to add to the tree. And they completely devalued the league as a result of being successful in Europe and not bothering with competing in the Pro12.

That solves your problem of having to keep saying that no Irish fans ever admit this on these boards. You now have it in black & white.

Asking for thoughts on the "new criteria for hosting the finals" is misleading. Because this is the first year, and they may decide not to do it again. Or they may decide to change. The Pro12 have said that the decision for this year's final is not a permanent decision. They and all the clubs are going to judge how successful this year's final will be first.

The decision to have the venue decided in advance was because there would only be 4-5 days to turnaround and arrange the venue, based on this season's fixtures. The Pro12 agreed after a series of meetings about schedule that it was not possible, so a decision was taken at the beginning of the season to seek tenders for hosting it. All 12 clubs and hosting cities were invited to tender with a New Year's Day deadline.

The criteria for hosting included:

A decent-sized stadium - ideally 18,000 min. - this criterion was used in previous seasons
A €125,000/£100,000 plus minimum financial commitment by the stadium owners/team (joint bids were allowed)
Backing and support of local city/municipality authorities
Two 5-star hotels for the two finalists - they did not need to be near the stadium

Reasons given by various clubs for not tendering were related to the financial commitment involved, and concerns about being able to generate the fan numbers required. Some teams took a cautious approach and decided to see how well it would do this year as they were not convinced about moving to a neutral venue in the first place, despite the short turnaround time for selling the stadium out.

Unlike previous seasons, the proceeds from the final will be distributed to all 12 clubs (finalists get a bit more than others). Presumably, any clubs who voted against the idea will feel it would be hypocritical to accept this and return their monies for re-distribution.

by LordDowlais Thu May 07, 2015 2:21 am

Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:If you want debate try answering some questions yourself

What questions have I not answered ?

Why did Ospreys not mention not being able to host a final because they fail the required criteria?

I said I cannot remember exactly as I have already said, you will have to ask our resident Ospreys expert wayne, he is quite well in with them, and he will be able to tell you everything that they said about the criteria. PM him if you must, but when I read something he says about Ospreys, I believe him.

by SecretFly Thu May 07, 2015 2:24 am

LordDowlais wrote:Well done SF, more sarcasm. There is no debating with the Irish on this forum, you are so far up your own rear ends it's not even funny. I will just remember the seven deadly sins of being an Irish rugby supporter I posted on another thread to keep my sanity.

No no, no. Lord. You can't just play that card every time you don't want to answer. I'm merely having an old toy about with the word 'criteria' 'cause we all got told off for being bad at grammar and tings (by a f**king Irishman too! - Bastard! Wink

).

But the questions remain serious ones. Either answer them or don't - but don't try to weaken their intent by saying it's all just Fly 'sarcasm' as usual.

The continuing inference is that IRFU rule the roost in organisational terms at Pro12, I'm asking how this is so, why this is so and why the Welsh are being so uncharacteristically timid and meek?

I put it bluntly to you, that it isn't so.
The Welsh aren't being timid or meek.
They're as much involved at the running of Pro12 as the Irish are, and they're making decisions as equal partners with all the rest of us. Nobody is oppressing the Welsh contingent. I want solid evidence to the contrary from now on.... not hearsay and rumours and accusations - I want it specifically drawn out for me in boardroom evidence that the Welsh are forever bowing to and kissing the feet of the damned Irish.

by SecretFly Thu May 07, 2015 2:27 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Well done SF, more sarcasm..

It's not even that. It's just irrelevant bunkum. I think he's trying to be amusing too, which is all the more worrying.

More Junk from Chunk?

Or in other words: "Good boy, Lord - don't answer those questions that Fly put to you, they may incriminate us if you do."

by Pot Hale Thu May 07, 2015 2:28 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:If you want debate try answering some questions yourself

What questions have I not answered ?

Why did Ospreys not mention not being able to host a final because they fail the required criteria?

I said I cannot remember exactly as I have already said, you will have to ask our resident Ospreys expert wayne, he is quite well in with them, and he will be able to tell you everything that they said about the criteria. PM him if you must, but when I read something he says about Ospreys, I believe him.

In summary, Ospreys reasons were that:

They were against the proposal to change hosting from top league finisher to a neutral venue, as "the competition was not yet at that stage".

Thus, it would be hypocritical to make a bid to host the final.

The financial commitment was substantial. Their financial performance had improved, but it wasn't in the best interests of the business and didn’t consider that they are in a position to take the kind of risk required.

A bid would have to be made in conjunction with the Stadium Management Company and Swansea Council.

They were going to assess how well Belfast did this year, and if it made sense, then consider if they'd joint bid in the future.

Sounds like a very pragmatic business decision to me.

by LordDowlais Thu May 07, 2015 2:32 am

SF, I do not think we are bowing down and kissing your feet, I think we are being leant on to keep the big Irish sponsors happy, I think that we need to keep the status quo, so that we do not lose any big sponsors. Unfortunately we do not have any big companies in Wales to sponsor our league, so this would never change, unless one of the big Whiskey companies in Scotland sponsored us or one of the big Italian car manufactures sponsored us. Yes I know the main offices for Guinness is in London, but Guinness is just as Irish as lucky charms, leprechauns and dodgy TMO's. Wink

by SecretFly Thu May 07, 2015 2:40 am

LordDowlais wrote:SF, I do not think we are bowing down and kissing your feet, I think we are being leant on to keep the big Irish sponsors happy, I think that we need to keep the status quo, so that we do not lose any big sponsors. Unfortunately we do not have any big companies in Wales to sponsor our league, so this would never change, unless one of the big Whiskey companies in Scotland sponsored us or one of the big Italian car manufactures sponsored us. Yes I know the main offices for Guinness is in London, but Guinness is just as Irish as lucky charms, leprechauns and dodgy TMO's.

That's you saying IRFU are doing a Wray. The IRFU in play with the money influencers, and influencing the money men to make demands that the Pro12 will then feel compelled to agree to because of the money gun being put to their head?

Bunk. Four nations run Pro12 - the money deals are already under contract. Its a cop out to say the poor Welsh are being victimised by the wily Irish and forced to say 'Yes' to things they want to say 'No' to.

I ask again, why were Ospreys left on their own? Why didn't the Regions stand up for each other and put pressure on if the Ospreys felt cheated? Why didn't the Regions attack the criteria as one body - I thought the new Regional body is there to make sure nobody ever walks again all over their rights?

It's just rubbish, Lord. The Welsh are equal partners and they make decisions with us and the Scots and the Italians for their own ends.

by LordDowlais Thu May 07, 2015 2:43 am

Thats what you think SF, I think differently.Each to their own. Also, I am not saying the IRFU are doing this, I am saying the league hierarchy are doing this.

by Guest Thu May 07, 2015 3:02 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:If you want debate try answering some questions yourself

What questions have I not answered ?

Why did Ospreys not mention not being able to host a final because they fail the required criteria?

I said I cannot remember exactly as I have already said, you will have to ask our resident Ospreys expert wayne, he is quite well in with them, and he will be able to tell you everything that they said about the criteria. PM him if you must, but when I read something he says about Ospreys, I believe him.

You won't remember because they didn't mention it. I'm talking about their initial response posted on the Ospreys site as to why they didn't bid to host the final. There's nothing to remember....

So, again, why did the Ospreys not cite not being eligible to host a final as the reason they did not bid?

by LordDowlais Thu May 07, 2015 3:06 am

Munchkin wrote:So, again, why did the Ospreys not cite not being eligible to host a final as the reason they did not bid?

They didn't because they did not make a bid, and if the criteria is to be believed, they would have failed anyway, because there are no 5 star hotels near the LS.

Anyway,I would like to thank the Irish for the following, without you Ospreys would have never achieved it:-

With just one home game to go in the regular season, the Ospreys are toasting what is set to be a year-on-year increase in PRO12 attendances at the Liberty Stadium.

League leaders Glasgow visit Ospreylia on Friday night for the penultimate scheduled fixture, with both teams among the four confirmed for the end of season play-offs and contesting the right to host a home semi-final.

With the Ospreys having defied pre-season expectations to lead the way in Wales once again, it seems that supporters have bought into what Steve Tandy and his men are attempting to achieve with crowds on the rise at the Liberty.

Last season saw a total of 87,292 pass through the turnstile at 11 PRO12 fixtures, working out at an average of 7,935 over the course of 2013/14. This time around the cumulative PRO12 attendance currently stands at 81,397 from 10 games to date, with a healthy crowd anticipated on Friday night that will take the total past last years figure, at an average of 8,139 per match so far.

Andrew Hore, Ospreys Chief Executive, said that the increase was another signs that the business was moving in the right direction.

“There has been an awful lot of negativity surrounding the regional game over the last few years, some of it fair but some of it misguided” said Hore.

“In terms of the Ospreys, we’ve worked hard over the last two to three years to not only stabilise the business but to give us a platform from which to go forward. We’ve seen that with the improvements on the field, where there is a hard working, committed squad of players, pulling together for the cause, be they the experienced old heads or one of the many young, talented boys coming through.

“It’s clear that our supporters appreciate the hard work and effort that has gone in to put us where we are in the table at the moment. That’s reflected by the increase in crowds. With one of the biggest attendances of the season anticipated for Friday night then the seasonal average and overall crowd figure will rise higher and that’s something to be proud of.

“There has been an awful lot of hard work behind the scenes aimed at growing crowds. Innovative ticketing initiatives, more direct marketing through social media, enhancing the match day experience, improving the Ospreys hospitality offerings and the appointment of a new ticket sales team have all helped to create 20 per cent growth in match by match ticket sales, with over 11,000 people coming to games this season as part of the group ticketing scheme. The key now is to make sure that we build on that next season and continue working hard as a team to grow that even further next year, match by match sales and business to business sales in particular.”

Hore added that the new European qualification criteria has played a part in making the PRO12 more competitive and, in turn, more attractive to supporters and sponsors alike:

“Make no mistake about it, this season has been the most competitive ever for the competition. It’s no coincidence that at the same time, European qualification criteria has changed to reflect the new look Champions Cup, and teams have to earn the right to go into the top tier competition on merit. Just about every single game now has something on it, even at this late stage of the season where there are teams competing to finish in one of the different qualification spots.

“The increased level of excitement surrounding the PRO12 means the competition is now well placed to move forward. With the commercial enhancements that are taking place, it’s important that everybody pulls together to ensure that the competition continues to grow in stature, commercially and rugby wise.

“We have worked incredibly hard to get us to where are, as the only Welsh representation in the play-offs and, so far, the only Welsh team to qualify for the Champions Cup. There’s still an awful lot of hard work to be done, starting this Friday night at the Liberty Stadium against Glasgow.

“Ticket sales are going well, we have a number of initiatives in place to support that, as it’s important that the team gets the backing it deserves for such a big game against a Glasgow side that has proven it’s play-off quality consistently since they were introduced in 2010.

“We know that it’s going to be a tough evening but the supporters can play a big part on the night. They can provide a real boost to the boys, giving that extra one or two per cent that can make a difference in such a big game.”

by SecretFly Thu May 07, 2015 3:06 am

LordDowlais wrote:Thats what you think SF, I think differently.Each to their own. Also, I am not saying the IRFU are doing this, I am saying the league hierarchy are doing this.

We're not allowed think here - we have to know. Wink

Not my rules, the rules of those who say prove that the criteria isn't what the Ospreys lads assumed it to be. Even you can't find proof and you need the criteria list to help your case along.

Anyway, the League hierarchy? Who the hell are they? A collection of faces from either Ireland, Wales, Scotland or Italy - or a combination of all of them? Same issue. Someone somewhere allegedly wants Ireland to host everything and win everything - and it's all formally organised. I want evidence not thoughts I'm afraid. Isn't there a Welsh fella heading Pro12 now? Write to him and say we need details here on the Hierarchy and the criteria for Final hosting - and who signed off on them.

by Guest Thu May 07, 2015 3:14 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:So, again, why did the Ospreys not cite not being eligible to host a final as the reason they did not bid?

They didn't because they did not make a bid, and if the criteria is to be believed, they would have failed anyway, because there are no 5 star hotels near the LS.

Anyway,I would like to thank the Irish for the following, without you Ospreys would have never achieved it:-

With just one home game to go in the regular season, the Ospreys are toasting what is set to be a year-on-year increase in PRO12 attendances at the Liberty Stadium.

League leaders Glasgow visit Ospreylia on Friday night for the penultimate scheduled fixture, with both teams among the four confirmed for the end of season play-offs and contesting the right to host a home semi-final.

With the Ospreys having defied pre-season expectations to lead the way in Wales once again, it seems that supporters have bought into what Steve Tandy and his men are attempting to achieve with crowds on the rise at the Liberty.

Last season saw a total of 87,292 pass through the turnstile at 11 PRO12 fixtures, working out at an average of 7,935 over the course of 2013/14. This time around the cumulative PRO12 attendance currently stands at 81,397 from 10 games to date, with a healthy crowd anticipated on Friday night that will take the total past last years figure, at an average of 8,139 per match so far.

Andrew Hore, Ospreys Chief Executive, said that the increase was another signs that the business was moving in the right direction.

“There has been an awful lot of negativity surrounding the regional game over the last few years, some of it fair but some of it misguided” said Hore.

“In terms of the Ospreys, we’ve worked hard over the last two to three years to not only stabilise the business but to give us a platform from which to go forward. We’ve seen that with the improvements on the field, where there is a hard working, committed squad of players, pulling together for the cause, be they the experienced old heads or one of the many young, talented boys coming through.

“It’s clear that our supporters appreciate the hard work and effort that has gone in to put us where we are in the table at the moment. That’s reflected by the increase in crowds. With one of the biggest attendances of the season anticipated for Friday night then the seasonal average and overall crowd figure will rise higher and that’s something to be proud of.

“There has been an awful lot of hard work behind the scenes aimed at growing crowds. Innovative ticketing initiatives, more direct marketing through social media, enhancing the match day experience, improving the Ospreys hospitality offerings and the appointment of a new ticket sales team have all helped to create 20 per cent growth in match by match ticket sales, with over 11,000 people coming to games this season as part of the group ticketing scheme. The key now is to make sure that we build on that next season and continue working hard as a team to grow that even further next year, match by match sales and business to business sales in particular.”

Hore added that the new European qualification criteria has played a part in making the PRO12 more competitive and, in turn, more attractive to supporters and sponsors alike:

“Make no mistake about it, this season has been the most competitive ever for the competition. It’s no coincidence that at the same time, European qualification criteria has changed to reflect the new look Champions Cup, and teams have to earn the right to go into the top tier competition on merit. Just about every single game now has something on it, even at this late stage of the season where there are teams competing to finish in one of the different qualification spots.

“The increased level of excitement surrounding the PRO12 means the competition is now well placed to move forward. With the commercial enhancements that are taking place, it’s important that everybody pulls together to ensure that the competition continues to grow in stature, commercially and rugby wise.

“We have worked incredibly hard to get us to where are, as the only Welsh representation in the play-offs and, so far, the only Welsh team to qualify for the Champions Cup. There’s still an awful lot of hard work to be done, starting this Friday night at the Liberty Stadium against Glasgow.

“Ticket sales are going well, we have a number of initiatives in place to support that, as it’s important that the team gets the backing it deserves for such a big game against a Glasgow side that has proven it’s play-off quality consistently since they were introduced in 2010.

“We know that it’s going to be a tough evening but the supporters can play a big part on the night. They can provide a real boost to the boys, giving that extra one or two per cent that can make a difference in such a big game.”

What absolute hogwash Very Happy

Ospreys go out of their way to fully explain to their supporters why they didn't enter a bid, and you claim that they omit the most important reason (they couldn't even if they had wanted too), because they wouldn't have got it anyway!

LD, it is you and Chunky that are evasive in answering direct questions, and when you do answer you simply make it up!

by Guest Thu May 07, 2015 3:15 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:So, again, why did the Ospreys not cite not being eligible to host a final as the reason they did not bid?

They didn't because they did not make a bid, and if the criteria is to be believed, they would have failed anyway, because there are no 5 star hotels near the LS.

Anyway,I would like to thank the Irish for the following, without you Ospreys would have never achieved it:-

With just one home game to go in the regular season, the Ospreys are toasting what is set to be a year-on-year increase in PRO12 attendances at the Liberty Stadium.

League leaders Glasgow visit Ospreylia on Friday night for the penultimate scheduled fixture, with both teams among the four confirmed for the end of season play-offs and contesting the right to host a home semi-final.

With the Ospreys having defied pre-season expectations to lead the way in Wales once again, it seems that supporters have bought into what Steve Tandy and his men are attempting to achieve with crowds on the rise at the Liberty.

Last season saw a total of 87,292 pass through the turnstile at 11 PRO12 fixtures, working out at an average of 7,935 over the course of 2013/14. This time around the cumulative PRO12 attendance currently stands at 81,397 from 10 games to date, with a healthy crowd anticipated on Friday night that will take the total past last years figure, at an average of 8,139 per match so far.

Andrew Hore, Ospreys Chief Executive, said that the increase was another signs that the business was moving in the right direction.

“There has been an awful lot of negativity surrounding the regional game over the last few years, some of it fair but some of it misguided” said Hore.

“In terms of the Ospreys, we’ve worked hard over the last two to three years to not only stabilise the business but to give us a platform from which to go forward. We’ve seen that with the improvements on the field, where there is a hard working, committed squad of players, pulling together for the cause, be they the experienced old heads or one of the many young, talented boys coming through.

“It’s clear that our supporters appreciate the hard work and effort that has gone in to put us where we are in the table at the moment. That’s reflected by the increase in crowds. With one of the biggest attendances of the season anticipated for Friday night then the seasonal average and overall crowd figure will rise higher and that’s something to be proud of.

“There has been an awful lot of hard work behind the scenes aimed at growing crowds. Innovative ticketing initiatives, more direct marketing through social media, enhancing the match day experience, improving the Ospreys hospitality offerings and the appointment of a new ticket sales team have all helped to create 20 per cent growth in match by match ticket sales, with over 11,000 people coming to games this season as part of the group ticketing scheme. The key now is to make sure that we build on that next season and continue working hard as a team to grow that even further next year, match by match sales and business to business sales in particular.”

Hore added that the new European qualification criteria has played a part in making the PRO12 more competitive and, in turn, more attractive to supporters and sponsors alike:

“Make no mistake about it, this season has been the most competitive ever for the competition. It’s no coincidence that at the same time, European qualification criteria has changed to reflect the new look Champions Cup, and teams have to earn the right to go into the top tier competition on merit. Just about every single game now has something on it, even at this late stage of the season where there are teams competing to finish in one of the different qualification spots.

“The increased level of excitement surrounding the PRO12 means the competition is now well placed to move forward. With the commercial enhancements that are taking place, it’s important that everybody pulls together to ensure that the competition continues to grow in stature, commercially and rugby wise.

“We have worked incredibly hard to get us to where are, as the only Welsh representation in the play-offs and, so far, the only Welsh team to qualify for the Champions Cup. There’s still an awful lot of hard work to be done, starting this Friday night at the Liberty Stadium against Glasgow.

“Ticket sales are going well, we have a number of initiatives in place to support that, as it’s important that the team gets the backing it deserves for such a big game against a Glasgow side that has proven it’s play-off quality consistently since they were introduced in 2010.

“We know that it’s going to be a tough evening but the supporters can play a big part on the night. They can provide a real boost to the boys, giving that extra one or two per cent that can make a difference in such a big game.”

So you are an Ospreys supporter again then?

by SecretFly Thu May 07, 2015 3:22 am

LordDowlais wrote:

Andrew Hore: “The increased level of excitement surrounding the PRO12 means the competition is now well placed to move forward. With the commercial enhancements that are taking place, it’s important that everybody pulls together to ensure that the competition continues to grow in stature, commercially and rugby wise..

Glad he's perked up and is enjoying himself finally. He wasn't in such a happy mood a few weeks ago with his "burning platform" speech.

There's hope for all of us then. Now all we need to is encourage Chunky to enjoy the Pro12 too. One more guy on-board and we're on the way to being the Best League in the World!!!!! Yahoo

Well - crowing about it anyway, like three or four others that circle the world right now Wink

by Pot Hale Thu May 07, 2015 4:06 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:So, again, why did the Ospreys not cite not being eligible to host a final as the reason they did not bid?

They didn't because they did not make a bid, and if the criteria is to be believed, they would have failed anyway, because there are no 5 star hotels near the LS.

In previous seasons, there had been two weeks between the semi-final and final, giving time for the showpiece event to be promoted and tickets sold. The Grand Final publicity. With the final of the new European Champions Cup being moved to the beginning of May, there was just a week’s gap this year.

Because of this, the board of the Pro12 decided to host it at a neutral venue at beginning of season. They did a strategic review of the Pro12 part of which led to decision to put it out to tender to the clubs and for all 12 clubs to share in the profits from the final.

Which one or more of these criteria do you think made Ospreys decide not to bid:

A decent-sized stadium - ideally 18,000 min. - this criterion was used in previous seasons
A €125,000/£100,000 plus minimum financial commitment by the stadium owners/team (joint bids were allowed)
Backing and support of local city/municipality authorities
Two 5-star hotels for the two finalists teams - that did not need to be near the stadium

Reasons given by various clubs for not tendering were related to the financial commitment involved, and concerns about being able to generate the fan numbers required. Some teams took a cautious approach and decided to see how well it would do this year as they were not convinced about moving to a neutral venue in the first place, despite the short turnaround time for selling the stadium out.

Ospreys are reported to have said in summary:

- They were against the proposal to change hosting from top league finisher to a neutral venue, as "the competition was not yet at that stage".

- Thus, it would be hypocritical to make a bid to host the final.

- The financial commitment was substantial. Their financial performance had improved, but it wasn't in the best interests of the business and didn’t consider that they are in a position to take the kind of risk required.

- A bid would have to be made in conjunction with the Stadium Management Company and Swansea Council.

- They were going to assess how well Belfast did this year, and if it made sense, then consider if they'd joint bid in the future.

And you continue to think it was about 5 star hotels and their availability?

by wayne Thu May 07, 2015 4:17 am

Pot Hale wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Munchkin wrote:If you want debate try answering some questions yourself

What questions have I not answered ?

Why did Ospreys not mention not being able to host a final because they fail the required criteria?

I said I cannot remember exactly as I have already said, you will have to ask our resident Ospreys expert wayne, he is quite well in with them, and he will be able to tell you everything that they said about the criteria. PM him if you must, but when I read something he says about Ospreys, I believe him.

In summary, Ospreys reasons were that:

They were against the proposal to change hosting from top league finisher to a neutral venue, as "the competition was not yet at that stage".

Thus, it would be hypocritical to make a bid to host the final.

The financial commitment was substantial. Their financial performance had improved, but it wasn't in the best interests of the business and didn’t consider that they are in a position to take the kind of risk required.

A bid would have to be made in conjunction with the Stadium Management Company and Swansea Council.

They were going to assess how well Belfast did this year, and if it made sense, then consider if they'd joint bid in the future.

Sounds like a very pragmatic business decision to me.

Pot Hale, yes you are right, only an hypocrite would apply to host something after the criteria is announced, when they had already announced to the organisation that runs the competition that they were NOT in favour of the change. That is the fundamentals of this case. And HYPOCRITES WE ARE NOT.
After the criteria was announced they found that they were NOT eligible anyway, and yes again as this seasons could be the only one to do it this way, they could well try to put in a bid themselves in the future.
Thanks for the endorsement Lord Dowlais, but I'm just an ordinary supporter who keeps up to date with what is happening within my Region in particular, and Welsh Rugby in general.

by Pot Hale Thu May 07, 2015 5:53 am

wayne wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

In summary, Ospreys reasons were that:

They were against the proposal to change hosting from top league finisher to a neutral venue, as "the competition was not yet at that stage".

Thus, it would be hypocritical to make a bid to host the final.

The financial commitment was substantial. Their financial performance had improved, but it wasn't in the best interests of the business and didn’t consider that they are in a position to take the kind of risk required.

A bid would have to be made in conjunction with the Stadium Management Company and Swansea Council.

They were going to assess how well Belfast did this year, and if it made sense, then consider if they'd joint bid in the future.

Sounds like a very pragmatic business decision to me.
Pot Hale, yes you are right, only an hypocrite would apply to host something after the criteria is announced, when they had already announced to the organisation that runs the competition that they were NOT in favour of the change. That is the fundamentals of this case. And HYPOCRITES WE ARE NOT.
After the criteria was announced they found that they were NOT eligible anyway, and yes again as this seasons could be the only one to do it this way, they could well try to put in a bid themselves in the future.
Thanks for the endorsement Lord Dowlais, but I'm just an ordinary supporter who keeps up to date with what is happening within my Region in particular, and Welsh Rugby in general.

Thanks Wayne - thought that was the case - although I suspect that the process was not as linear that Ospreys would not have known about the likely criteria to be met and that would have figured in their thinking and decision to be against the move as the 'competition was not yet at that stage', in their view, presumably to have a neutral final that would garner sufficient support and crowds to be seen as a success. When you say that they found they were not eligible - you mean on financial grounds?

by wayne Thu May 07, 2015 7:27 am

Pot Hale, didn't quote as it is taking too long to scroll down, that was one of the reasons and the Hotel part was not an insignificant reason. They were against the proposal from the very beginning, if the criteria was known at the time they would have been against it because of our financial situation, which has dramatically improved to this day.
With the apathy shown by the Welsh Rugby public, which IMO will be shown on Friday night, I cannot see us trying for these finals unless the monetary value decreases and the ridiculous Hotel criteria either altered or dropped.

by Guest Thu May 07, 2015 7:42 am

That simply doesn't ring true, wayne. Are you saying that Ospreys turned down the opportunity to bid before they actually knew what it was they were turning down? Did the Pro12 ask all clubs to submit a bid before actually informing them of the criteria? Seems unlikely.

Did the Ospreys not publish their reasons for not bidding until after the bid was awarded?

by Guest Thu May 07, 2015 7:54 am

Thought I should just post the Ospreys Supporters article here for myself (saves asking questions). Haven't actually read it yet Very Happy

Ospreys Supporters Club:

In May 2014 the PRO12 Board, representing all 12 Clubs and 4 Unions, requisitioned a strategic review on the ongoing development of the tournament, including the staging of a Destination Final. This ongoing process where all stakeholders, the 12 Clubs and 4 Unions, participated and were continually consulted concluded with a report presented in December.

The Board then considered the report and, given the development of the tournament, all agreed that the time is right this season for a showcase Destination Final and invited offers from all 12 clubs & their cities/regions to host the Final.

The bid was open to all stakeholders and potential partners (e.g. stadium owners) and there was no requirement that a PRO12 club venue be used, given size & logistical items. Tenders involved stadium size, logistical & cost guarantees and the opportunity to be imaginative.

PRO12 Rugby fully recognises that it is a mid-season decision and as such will deny the right for the highest placed team after the Play Offs to propose a suitable home venue. This was fully discussed as part of the process and that it was still the view of our stakeholders that moving to a destination venue was the right thing to do for this season.

One of a number of factors considered was that the changes to the structure of European competitions, with finals on May 1 & 2, meant that the Guinness PRO12 Final would otherwise be played one week after our Play Offs which would make it extremely difficult and more expensive for fans to travel with just a week’s notice. There are now 4 months to go to the Guinness PRO12 Final.

Kingspan Stadium has special access for disabled fans on all four sides of the ground and all disabled requests will be through Ulster Rugby, not Ticketmaster. Similarly group bookings for schools & clubs will also go through tickets@ulsterrugby.com

Any excess income will be split between PRO12 Rugby and the two finalists as before. Our last 5 sell out Finals were truly memorable rugby spectacles and, building on this success, we look forward to welcoming fans to Belfast for what will be a fantastic rugby weekend.

The top 2 teams in the league section of the PRO12 will still host the Play Offs. That’s team 1 v team 4 and team 2 v team 3 as before. The selection of where the PRO12 Final is to be played has always been a matter for the PRO12 to decide. Clubs could ‘propose’ their own venue but did not have an automatic right to host the Final, as in 2013 when Ulster played in the RDS as Kingspan Stadium was under construction.

An outstanding tender from ‘Team Belfast’ bid won unanimously and the result was recently announced on Monday 26th January. Belfast excelled itself as the host city for our PRO12 season launch in 2013 and their plans for the City in the lead up to and around the Final are very exciting.

PRO12 Rugby is delighted to be able to work with our partners to promote the variety of fantastic international destinations that the Guinness PRO12 has to offer and where fans from all 4 of our countries will enjoy a memorable Final and a great weekend in Belfast.

The aim of moving the Final to a National Stadium in the future is under active consideration.

More ticketing information will be announced early next week. Ulster season ticket holders will have an opportunity to buy a limited number of tickets but a substantial number will be reserved for the two finalists.

S4C in Wales broadcast Sunday games and so would like more Welsh teams to feature. All 12 clubs must play on a Sunday if requested by broadcasters and do so.

The PRO12 Board represents all 12 clubs & 4 Unions & they contract with the broadcasters.

Round 22 on Saturday May 16 is confirmed but not the 6 simultaneous kick off times. The broadcasters will look at the teams in contention for Play Offs/Europe and then decide when Round 21 games are played on the weekend of May 8/9/10.

Further news on the 2015 Guinness PRO12 Final will be continually updated on www.pro12rugby.com and also on @PRO12rugby, the PRO12 Twitter page, and the Pro12 Rugby page on Facebook.

Upon receipt of this response we reviewed all of our questions and it could clearly be seen that many questions had not been answered. The questions we felt had not be answered we resubmitted and have since been responded to as follows:

Who made the final decision? Was this decided by representatives of the 12 teams or did the unions have the final say.

The Board, representing the 12 clubs, made a consensus unanimous decision
Could a union tender for the final, or was this only open to the 12 teams represented in the Pro 12.

The 12 PRO12 teams and their cities/councils were invited to bid. The 12 teams could have bid with their Unions or other potential partners/stakeholders (e.g. stadium owners)
By having an 18,000 capacity, are you allowing all teams to tender or penalising those who do not meet the capacity limits.

Tenders were not contingent on the Final being hosted in a PRO12 Club venue with a 18,000 capacity – so all teams and their cities/councils could have tendered
How is this benefiting to Supporters? What if this was a Glasgow v Ospreys final with no Irish involvement. Would you still expect a sell out and if not, who is financially penalised?

The Board in deciding the Final venue gave all clubs and supporters 4 months’ notice. A sell out is expected.
You have advised that a limited number of tickets are going on pre-sale to Ulster supporters prior to the public sale. What is that limited number? What safeguards do you have in place for those supporters wishing not to attend? Would Pro12 have a returns policy in place for these tickets, enabling purchased tickets to be sold back at face value? Or do you expect those no longer attending to sell on at face value and not make a profit (a naive view if this is the one being taken)

As with other similar events, there will be people buying in anticipation that their teams will be involved. There will be a way that bought tickets can be resold legitimately.
What was the set criteria for placing a tender?

Other than the stadium size and certain logistical & local cost guarantees, bidding teams had the opportunity to be as imaginative as they like
Did the organisations placing a tender have to commit to a financial agreement to hold this. and if so, what was the value?

There was no minimum guarantee other than the event would have to pay for itself, any profits would then be shared between the PRO12 and the two finalists.
We have since learnt the amount to be £109,050.00
How was the winner of the tender decided?

By the PRO12 Board after a recommendation from our PRO12 Commercial Sub-Committee, both of whom have representatives present from our clubs and PRO Rugby Wales.
Why are the tickets going on public sale so early? How can this be of the benefit to the supporters? You now expect thousands of supporters to commit to purchasing tickets, plus pay for flights and hotels on the off chance that they make the final! How is that helping supporters exactly?

Under the previous system supporters would have been required to book flights, ferries and accommodation with less than a week’s notice. Availability and pricing factors were considered.
Why is this not then being held in a neutral venue. Ulster is not neutral especially if they make the final as a non-top seeded team.

All finals have been held in neutral stadiums.
Why are only 4,000 out of 18,000 tickets being kept for allocation to the finalists? That is just 11% of available tickets to each finalists supporters base. This is not enough to cover a 1/3 of most supporters in the top 4 at present.

A minimum of 2,000 per finalist is being kept, a ticket transfer system will apply and experience shows that – with just a week’s notice – that this will be sufficient.
What were the results of the vote? Did anyone abstain from the vote? What were the overwhelming figures for Ulster to win?

No one abstained – the consensus from all our stakeholders on the Board was that now was the time to make the transition to a destination final, especially given the loss of a week in the turnaround between Play Offs & Final.
Please explain rule 3.7 and why you’ve decided to bypass it this season?

Rule 3.7 has not been bypassed. The selection of where the Final is played has always been a matter for the PRO12 to decide. Under 3.7 clubs had the right to ‘propose’ their own venue, they did not have an automatic right to host the Final. This is covered further down that page.

by wayne Thu May 07, 2015 8:13 am

Munchkin wrote:That simply doesn't ring true, wayne. Are you saying that Ospreys turned down the opportunity to bid before they actually knew what it was they were turning down? Did the Pro12 ask all clubs to submit a bid before actually informing them of the criteria? Seems unlikely.

Did the Ospreys not publish their reasons for not bidding until after the bid was awarded?

Munchkin, what do you think came first, the decision to hold the final at a neutral venue, or the criteria for deciding whether any teams or National Unions would bid for the right to stage that match, and what do you think would be the interval between each, if there was an interval.

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