2 English clubs in the Pro 12??

by Chunky Norwich Sun 03 May 2015, 11:50 am

First topic message reminder :

Being reported today that London Scottish and London Welsh are being lined up to play in the pro12.....if the Italian teams don't pay money owed to the league.

Fantastic news that English teams are already touted as playing in what could be an early British and Irish League. Even if it doesn't happen, these increasingly frequent bits and bobs are only the beginning of what is to come.

by **Notch** Sun 03 May 2015, 6:46 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:For the record, I don't believe this will happen imminently. But it goes to show that rugby people are:

1) Thinking the pro12 isn't working
2) Thinking of alternative solutions

That's all we can ask for at the moment. Now if only more fans would acknowledge the need for change.

No, it doesn't necessarily show that at all. It only shows that people are thinking having the Italian teams in the Pro12 isn't working and that if there is a way to replace them it might be considered.

by **BigGee** Sun 03 May 2015, 6:55 pm

Notch wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:For the record, I don't believe this will happen imminently. But it goes to show that rugby people are:

1) Thinking the pro12 isn't working
2) Thinking of alternative solutions

That's all we can ask for at the moment. Now if only more fans would acknowledge the need for change.

No, it doesn't necessarily show that at all. It only shows that people are thinking having the Italian teams in the Pro12 isn't working and that if there is a way to replace them it might be considered.

Agree with that. Its probably been the best year yet in the Pro 12, who would have imagined that Leinster would not have qualified for the playoffs and that all teams down to 8th are still playing for some real prizes. Things are going well on the pitch but that is not to say that improvement can't be made off it.

by Chunky Norwich Sun 03 May 2015, 7:07 pm

What I find very interesting in the article is this comment by a pro 12 source:

"We cannot survive on current commercial income"

Reminds me of one of those "Pro 12 value - the facts" threads that some chap started recently.

by Guest Sun 03 May 2015, 7:16 pm

Hmmm...who said it and who is "we"?

by Chunky Norwich Sun 03 May 2015, 7:20 pm

Munchkin wrote:Hmmm...who said it and who is "we"?

I would imagine, if this is total Love sacks, the lawyers will be on the phone and this article will be pulled tonight.

Your reluctance to accept the future is amusing.

by SecretFly Sun 03 May 2015, 7:24 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:What I find very interesting in the article is this comment by a pro 12 source:

"We cannot survive on current commercial income"

Reminds me of one of those "Pro 12 value - the facts" threads that some chap started recently.

Last time I read a line very similar to that, the 'Pro12 source' was Welsh ......

So nothing new there....is it?

by Guest Sun 03 May 2015, 7:27 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Hmmm...who said it and who is "we"?

I would imagine, if this is total Love sacks, the lawyers will be on the phone and this article will be pulled tonight.

Your reluctance to accept the future is amusing.

If it exists...

Anyway, what are you on about? You do know my questions were a response to this?: "We cannot survive on current commercial income"

So who said it, and who is "we"?

Ah, so you're a modern day prophet who knows the future? I'm not a betting man, but if you give me some tips....

I'm happy that I amuse you, but what's more amusing is your reluctance to accept the fact that there's not going to be an Anglo-Irish......

Very Happy

by Chunky Norwich Sun 03 May 2015, 7:27 pm

article. Cos I love all you guys

2 English clubs in the Pro 12?? - Page 2 RSlYGtb

by Guest Sun 03 May 2015, 7:30 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:article. Cos I love all you guys

About flippin time Very Happy

by Chunky Norwich Sun 03 May 2015, 7:32 pm

Munchkin wrote:

I'm happy that I amuse you, but what's more amusing is your reluctance to accept the fact that there's not going to be an Anglo-Irish......

Anglo Irish? No probably not.

by Guest Sun 03 May 2015, 7:33 pm

Where's the bit about the Italians?

P.s and thanks for posting that part of it.

by Chunky Norwich Sun 03 May 2015, 7:36 pm

Munchkin wrote:Where's the bit about the Italians?

P.s and thanks for posting that part of it.

2 English clubs in the Pro 12?? - Page 2 Zx4lYmj

by SecretFly Sun 03 May 2015, 7:40 pm

It sounds very.................................... Welsh? The source, Chunky, he sounds very Welsh. I'll be very surprised if he turns out not to be.

So the Pro12, or grumbling parts thereof, looks to the 'Capital' for salvation yet one more time, and allows itself to be home to two clubs that can't either hack it in the AP or get into it (there's quality control for you Whistle

) and are complaining about not getting enough money out of the AP? They LW/LS should phone up the Italians first to see that the trick of it is that you contribute not siphon. Wink

by Guest Sun 03 May 2015, 7:50 pm

Thanks again, Chunky.

"The Pro 12's more urgent problem is to resolve out-standing issues with their two Italians teams, Treviso and zebre, amid claims that that the Italians owe the competition more than £1m. They have been set a deadline believed to run out before the end of the month."

Not sure what to make of it. If it's true it would suggest that the Italians haven't actually said they want to leave. Just that there is some issue of payment.

Not enough in it to form any real opinion though.

by TJ Sun 03 May 2015, 9:32 pm

Chunky has this absurd hatred of the pro 12 and is unable to either say why or to give any idea of what could be done in a different way that is at all realistic.

The crux of this is the Italians do not owe any money. Pay to play for them was dropped a while back. Its nonsense

chunky - why don#'t you stop with this hatred of the pro 12 - its nonsense and we all know it

by VinceWLB Sun 03 May 2015, 10:15 pm

I have always been in favour of having the Italians in the pro 12, but even i have to admit it isn't working out and something has to change. Believe it or not there is more potential in London Welsh and London Scottish than in Treviso and Zebre. Even though it could be a difficult couple of seasons at the beginning for them it can only be positive in the longer term.

by Welsh Magician Sun 03 May 2015, 10:16 pm

TJ wrote:Chunky has this absurd hatred of the pro 12 and is unable to either say why or to give any idea of what could be done in a different way that is at all realistic.

The crux of this is the Italians do not owe any money. Pay to play for them was dropped a while back. Its nonsense

chunky - why don#'t you stop with this hatred of the pro 12 - its nonsense and we all know it

I think it is quite obvious that Chunky is not making this up, it is reported in the Rugby Paper, a well respected specialist publication. I'm afraid to tell you that the Italians do pay into the Pro12.

by TJ Sun 03 May 2015, 10:25 pm

Chunky may not have made this up but someone has. Its total nonsense. I understood pay to play was dropped.

chunky has his own incomprehensible agenda and most odd hatred of the pro 12

by Sin é Sun 03 May 2015, 10:44 pm

There was also speculation during 6Ns that Italy was going to be thrown out of the 6Ns (think it was Dean Ryan in the Guardian) to allow South Africa in.

Perfidious Albion at it again.

by Guest Sun 03 May 2015, 10:45 pm

TJ, he's entitled to his opinion. He doesn't like the league. Most others do. But he offers alternatives. They may not be realistic, but he's willing to make them and argue his corner.

We have to listen to your opinions too, you know. Theyre not always a bed of roses. But we read them. We persevere. Such is life.

by lostinwales Sun 03 May 2015, 10:52 pm

Sin é wrote:There was also speculation during 6Ns that Italy was going to be thrown out of the 6Ns (think it was Dean Ryan in the Guardian) to allow South Africa in.

Perfidious Albion at it again.

Proof that its a plot lead by England? or is it just your usual bias coming out

by **LondonTiger** Sun 03 May 2015, 10:55 pm

Technically Perfidious Albion can cover deceitful acts by Britain - so may be he is merely absolving Ireland of any blame.

by Sin é Sun 03 May 2015, 10:58 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Sin é wrote:There was also speculation during 6Ns that Italy was going to be thrown out of the 6Ns (think it was Dean Ryan in the Guardian) to allow South Africa in.

Perfidious Albion at it again.

Proof that its a plot lead by England? or is it just your usual bias coming out

dean ryan wrote:but because rugby is currently in the middle of an interesting cycle and those bean counters and others who questioned the sanity of that 2000 invitation, might just be reflecting on whether the deal could be unpicked.

dean ryan wrote:
Of course, football’s £5bn-plus deal is clearly a pipe dream in the rugby world but £160m over four years, reportedly the current package, is just as clearly way out of kilter when you consider that Sky and BT Sport have decided that rugby is one of their chosen battlegrounds. And were they to enter negotiations, it would be easy to understand why they might want the cast list changed, especially as there continue to be many South Africans looking enviously this way.

Last week, when Cardiff and Paris were packed with emotion and energy, the game in Rome was distinctly second best and I would not expect Italy to be much more entertaining at Twickenham on Saturday. Backs are against the wall and, on the evidence of the performance against Ireland, an 11th wooden spoon beckons.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2015/feb/13/italy-six-nations-pro12-england

by Sin é Sun 03 May 2015, 11:00 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Technically Perfidious Albion can cover deceitful acts by Britain - so may be he is merely absolving Ireland of any blame.

according to wiki:

Perfidious Albion is an anglophobic pejorative phrase used within the context of international relations and diplomacy to refer to alleged acts of diplomatic sleights, duplicity, treachery and hence infidelity (with respect to perceived promises made to or alliances formed with other nation states) by monarchs or governments of Britain (or England) in their pursuit of self-interest and the requirements of realpolitik, often as not employed by the loser in geopolitical affairs.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 03 May 2015, 11:03 pm

Sin é wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Technically Perfidious Albion can cover deceitful acts by Britain - so may be he is merely absolving Ireland of any blame.

according to wiki:

Perfidious Albion is an anglophobic pejorative phrase used within the context of international relations and diplomacy to refer to alleged acts of diplomatic sleights, duplicity, treachery and hence infidelity (with respect to perceived promises made to or alliances formed with other nation states) by monarchs or governments of Britain (or England) in their pursuit of self-interest and the requirements of realpolitik, often as not employed by the loser in geopolitical affairs.

Perhaps you should also read your own post before correcting me ie

by monarchs or governments of Britain (or England)

anyway so you are blaming England for the alleged plots to kick Italian teams out of the Pro12 and Italy out of 6Ns?

by lostinwales Sun 03 May 2015, 11:11 pm

As we all know Dean Ryan speaks for all of us. As far as I can tell from the quotes provided all he has suggested is that games with Italy can be a lot less exciting than some of the other games in the 6N, and are therefore less of a draw.

What staggering insight.

by Sin é Sun 03 May 2015, 11:11 pm

All these 'rumours of discontent' are coming out of the English* press (the Rugby paper and the Guardian).

*which can also be referred to as the British press (but we all know we are talking about English based press).

by Sin é Sun 03 May 2015, 11:14 pm

lostinwales wrote:As we all know Dean Ryan speaks for all of us. As far as I can tell from the quotes provided all he has suggested is that games with Italy can be a lot less exciting than some of the other games in the 6N, and are therefore less of a draw.

What staggering insight.

dean ryan wrote:but because rugby is currently in the middle of an interesting cycle and those bean counters and others who questioned the sanity of that 2000 invitation, might just be reflecting on whether the deal could be unpicked. There are various reasons why they might.

by lostinwales Sun 03 May 2015, 11:39 pm

Please oh please Sin e tell us where those 6N bean counters are based?

by **Notch** Sun 03 May 2015, 11:46 pm

It says that they are considering trying to add the two London teams and the Italians owe them money- but there's nothing to say that the Italian clubs will be forced out just yet, even if they don't pay their debts. It could just as easily go up to 14 teams in the league (which would be a bad in rugby terms but good commercially).

14 team leagues are just a ridiculous idea given the injury rate we already have in professional rugby but I doubt the league could ever justify turning down extra income.

by Sin é Mon 04 May 2015, 12:00 am

lostinwales wrote:Please oh please Sin e tell us where those 6N bean counters are based?

I think the particular bean counters he is referred to are whoever are pushing the buttons in the RFU (the two Nigels).

John Feehan the 6Ns CEO pretty much championed bringing Italy into the 6Ns in the first place because he saw Italy as having huge market potential with its very large population.

by lostinwales Mon 04 May 2015, 12:14 am

Sin é wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Please oh please Sin e tell us where those 6N bean counters are based?

I think the particular bean counters he is referred to are whoever are pushing the buttons in the RFU (the two Nigels).

John Feehan the 6Ns CEO pretty much championed bringing Italy into the 6Ns in the first place because he saw Italy as having huge market potential with its very large population.

So you think that it must all be down to the RFU with no evidence whatsoever. The bean counters at the 6N headquarters are boldly ignoring any evidence that the deal they made all those years ago may not be paying off as well as was hoped?

The really really deeply dumb thing is that what you have brought up is an interesting point and one that is well worth a discussion or two. (And for what its worth I like seeing Italy in the 6N, even if they can often play bad and drag their opponents down to their level). But by adding in one really stupid and unnecessary little line into your comment we end up going around the same nationalistic canine cahones that often dominate this site and can drive a man nuts.

by Guest Mon 04 May 2015, 12:22 am

14 teams is too many for the Pro 12. T14 have enough problems with such a tight schedule. It would be even more difficult for the Pro 12.

I would like to see a second tier at some point, but for that we would need at least 20 teams. So another 6 needed for that to happen, along with the finance to run a second tier.

by Sin é Mon 04 May 2015, 12:41 am

lostinwales wrote:
Sin é wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Please oh please Sin e tell us where those 6N bean counters are based?

I think the particular bean counters he is referred to are whoever are pushing the buttons in the RFU (the two Nigels).

John Feehan the 6Ns CEO pretty much championed bringing Italy into the 6Ns in the first place because he saw Italy as having huge market potential with its very large population.

So you think that it must all be down to the RFU with no evidence whatsoever. The bean counters at the 6N headquarters are boldly ignoring any evidence that the deal they made all those years ago may not be paying off as well as was hoped?

Plenty of evidence - England tried to jump into bed in the past with SA (around 2003 as the other teams in the 6Ns were not good enough!). They also had to be threatened to be expelled when they sold English TV exclusive rights separately to other 6Ns to Sky.

How would Dean Ryan know what the 6Ns beancounters think who are based in Dublin? Dean Ryan is based in England and all his contacts are English.

The really really deeply dumb thing is that what you have brought up is an interesting point and one that is well worth a discussion or two. (And for what its worth I like seeing Italy in the 6N, even if they can often play bad and drag their opponents down to their level). But by adding in one really stupid and unnecessary little line into your comment we end up going around the same nationalistic canine cahones that often dominate this site and can drive a man nuts.

Some interviews with John Feehan on the 6Ns here. The 6Ns is very lucrative for the countries involved. Why would you mess with that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7C-dnb0ceQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FspoA7L1TFs

Interesting that the interviewer (English accent) in first youtube clip seems obsessed with Italy.

by **Notch** Mon 04 May 2015, 1:16 am

Munchkin wrote:14 teams is too many for the Pro 12. T14 have enough problems with such a tight schedule. It would be even more difficult for the Pro 12.

I would like to see a second tier at some point, but for that we would need at least 20 teams. So another 6 needed for that to happen, along with the finance to run a second tier.

Second tier is not a good idea at all for me; lots of teams are struggling to get crowds as it is. Add in the fact they are playing second tier rugby and it will probably make the problem worse, not better, especially once nations lose out on their derby games. Imagine Edinburgh are in Tier 2 and Glasgow are in Tier1- Scottish Rugby needs the 1872 Cup to promote their professional

Much better to have a conference system- two leagues that run parallel and send teams to the same playoffs would allow expansion while guaranteeing we can keep as many derbies as possible. Here's how it could work effectively if we hypothetically did go up to 14 teams.

Conference A
Leinster, Ulster, Munster, Connacht, Treviso, Zebre, London Welsh

Conference B
Ospreys, Scarlets, Blues, Dragons, Glasgow, Edinburgh, London Scottish

Each team plays 19 games in the regular season;

6 Home games against the other teams in their conference
6 Away games against the other teams in their conference
3/4 Home games against the teams from the other conference (alternating ie. 3 one year, 4 the next)
3/4 Away games against the teams from the other conference (alternating ie. 3 one year, 4 the next)

The Top 4 in each conference go into playoffs at the end (home side in bold)

QF1; 1st place Conference A vs 4th place Conference B
QF2; 2nd place Conference B vs 3rd place Conference A
QF3; 1st place Conference B vs 4th place Conference A
QF4; 2nd place Conference A vs 3rd place Conference B

SF1; Winner QF1 vs Winner QF3
SF2; Winner QF3 vs Winner QF4

Final; Winner SF1 vs Winner SF2
Final venue selected at the beginning of the season

by Pot Hale Mon 04 May 2015, 1:57 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:For the record, I don't believe this will happen imminently. But it goes to show that rugby people are:

1) Thinking the pro12 isn't working
2) Thinking of alternative solutions

That's all we can ask for at the moment. Now if only more fans would acknowledge the need for change.

I think this news fits exactly with the kind of thing that various Welsh and Irish CEOs have been saying recently.

Need to re-brand the Pro12 and give it a makeover. What better than to make it into the Pro14? Keep the Italians.

The Pro12 (soon to be 14) needs to get better TV/sponsorship and think they should target the UK market. As I outlined in another thread, bringing English teams outside the ring fence would be a good place to start. Cue London Welsh and London Scottish. Not long before whoever gets cut out of the PRL Ringfence 14, will come knocking at the door.

Pro12 will become the European Pro14 and obviously have increased revenue share of Euro comps, etc since it would now have more chimblypots in TV land. Then add in more teams over time to create a second tier, and have a Pro10 premiership with a strict top 6 Euro qualification.

It's the future, I can see it. Now where's Mick Dawson's number.....?

by Sin é Mon 04 May 2015, 2:19 am

How do you mean rebrand? The Pro12 is in its first season of a 4 year contract with Guinness & Sky?

There isn't a snowball's chance in hell of the RFU/Celtic Unions allowing London Welsh or Scottish joining the Pro12 because that would create a precedent that might be difficult to handle in future - for example - it might suit all parties if the Ospreys joined the Aviva Premiership - how would that suit the rest of Welsh Regions/Pro12.

Comments from John Feehan about the Pro12: Note what he says about the Italian teams.

Feehan admires Treviso and Zebre's approach to the PRO12 as they attempt to keep a strong Italian core within their team: "It is extremely important for Italy to have professional players in the PRO12. It gives them the opportunity to play against a calibre of opposition they will face when playing for their national squad."

The agreement marks a landmark for the PRO12 as it has been able to deliver the first ever network coverage deal in the UK and Ireland. Under the deal that will kick start at the beginning of the 2014-2015 season, Sky will broadcast 33 games live and that, along with coverage from local broadcasters, will give the PRO12 an impressive reach.

"As Glasgow prepare for their first PRO12 final this weekend, they are the shining example of what can happen if team's embrace the opportunities and deal with the limitations of the tournament."

The seeds of increased TV exposure have already been sewn as this season's final will be broadcast live by the likes of Setanta Sport in Australia and Asia, Sky Sports in New Zealand, Fox Sports Americas and OSN North Africa and the Middle East

http://en.espn.co.uk/rabodirect-pro12-2013-14/rugby/story/227587.html#aj43TgeQAq4ReJZK.03

by Guest Mon 04 May 2015, 6:38 am

Griff wrote:Jumping ahead massively here, but if they left then where would they play? And if they had nowhere immediately to play then would they still get places in the European Cup? That's perhaps what they're at risk of throwing away if they leave the Pro12.

Would that then give 2 more spaces to the remaining 'Pro10' sides?! Probably not as the shouts of 'no meritocracy' would be heard again

Think those shouts might go quite for a little bit now. Unless Bridgend fancy promotion to pro rugby now they've beaten the World Club XV yesterday?

by lostinwales Mon 04 May 2015, 9:48 am

Sin é wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Sin é wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Please oh please Sin e tell us where those 6N bean counters are based?

I think the particular bean counters he is referred to are whoever are pushing the buttons in the RFU (the two Nigels).

John Feehan the 6Ns CEO pretty much championed bringing Italy into the 6Ns in the first place because he saw Italy as having huge market potential with its very large population.

So you think that it must all be down to the RFU with no evidence whatsoever. The bean counters at the 6N headquarters are boldly ignoring any evidence that the deal they made all those years ago may not be paying off as well as was hoped?

Plenty of evidence - England tried to jump into bed in the past with SA (around 2003 as the other teams in the 6Ns were not good enough!). They also had to be threatened to be expelled when they sold English TV exclusive rights separately to other 6Ns to Sky.

How would Dean Ryan know what the 6Ns beancounters think who are based in Dublin? Dean Ryan is based in England and all his contacts are English.

The really really deeply dumb thing is that what you have brought up is an interesting point and one that is well worth a discussion or two. (And for what its worth I like seeing Italy in the 6N, even if they can often play bad and drag their opponents down to their level). But by adding in one really stupid and unnecessary little line into your comment we end up going around the same nationalistic canine cahones that often dominate this site and can drive a man nuts.

Some interviews with John Feehan on the 6Ns here. The 6Ns is very lucrative for the countries involved. Why would you mess with that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7C-dnb0ceQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FspoA7L1TFs

Interesting that the interviewer (English accent) in first youtube clip seems obsessed with Italy.

So the evidence you talk about is 12 years old. The point I make still stands. You have decided to label the British/English as 'perfidious' based on one pundit's vague comments and some historical comments from an all too brief time when England was generally streamrollering their European opponents (outside of their regular one game a 6N loss).

These things effect all of us, and if one of us are wondering about what Italy bring then any of us could be, saintly Ireland included.

by SecretFly Mon 04 May 2015, 9:55 am

lostinwales wrote:

These things effect all of us, and if one of us are wondering about what Italy bring then any of us could be, saintly Ireland included.

We're obviously far from being saints, as any quick reading of this here 606 chatshop over recent years will attest.

Maybe we've just joined the English as most reviled Nation, or indeed supplanted them? Wink

- and they're not bloody pleased about it neither! mad

"Hey you Irish lot! - Quit taking our 'Everybody 'ates us and we don't care' podium! - F**k right off, you manky squatters!"

by The Great Aukster Mon 04 May 2015, 10:02 am

A Pro14 would be a step towards a wider European league and it would increase the marketability of the league in markets it currently isn't in.

It would be great for London Scottish and Welsh having high profile matches but if the Pro12 really wanted two English teams why would they settle for such cannon fodder? Just to have two teams below Zebre and Treviso?
There would be the same hurdles to jump if the Pro12 made the offer to say Saracens and Bath, who might find the competition rules a bit more to their liking. Toulon and Clermont would soon follow and then there would be a Euro League that people would be clamouring to get a piece of. Wink

by HammerofThunor Mon 04 May 2015, 10:14 am

Well the PRO12 don't have a cap at all so they might jump at the chance.

by SecretFly Mon 04 May 2015, 10:19 am

The Great Aukster wrote:A Pro14 would be a step towards a wider European league and it would increase the marketability of the league in markets it currently isn't in.

It would be great for London Scottish and Welsh having high profile matches but if the Pro12 really wanted two English teams why would they settle for such cannon fodder? Just to have two teams below Zebre and Treviso?
There would be the same hurdles to jump if the Pro12 made the offer to say Saracens and Bath, who might find the competition rules a bit more to their liking. Toulon and Clermont would soon follow and then there would be a Euro League that people would be clamouring to get a piece of.

Now there's a thinking man. Wink

The only reason LW and LS are mentioned is the presumed cultural links. If that was a legitimate link then why wouldn't London Irish be approached? I'd have the same attitude to them btw - you got your league... it's promoted as the best league in the woyuld. Stay in it and rise through it.

But maybe the Irish, English and French should create a European Super League (four Irish, four English, four French, Ospreys, Glasgow [Euro14] - closed, player cap agreed). Then Chunky might finally have his dream come through and the remaining Welsh Regions and Edinburgh could go into a New British League with the remaining English sides.

Oh I must tell Chunky this instant about me Grand Plan for everyone being happy and loadsa more money!!!!!

by SecretFly Mon 04 May 2015, 10:22 am

HammerofThunor wrote:Well the PRO12 don't have a cap at all so they might jump at the chance.

Precisely!!!! We're f**king loaded over here in Pro12 land. Sexton is on 2.3 million, when the secret 'expenses' are taken into account. Yeah, the top two AP and Top14 sides joining Pro12 and us kicking out four current Pro12 sides that aren't rolling in it. Yeah.

by Sin é Mon 04 May 2015, 11:22 am

lostinwales wrote:
Sin é wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Sin é wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Please oh please Sin e tell us where those 6N bean counters are based?

I think the particular bean counters he is referred to are whoever are pushing the buttons in the RFU (the two Nigels).

John Feehan the 6Ns CEO pretty much championed bringing Italy into the 6Ns in the first place because he saw Italy as having huge market potential with its very large population.

So you think that it must all be down to the RFU with no evidence whatsoever. The bean counters at the 6N headquarters are boldly ignoring any evidence that the deal they made all those years ago may not be paying off as well as was hoped?

Plenty of evidence - England tried to jump into bed in the past with SA (around 2003 as the other teams in the 6Ns were not good enough!). They also had to be threatened to be expelled when they sold English TV exclusive rights separately to other 6Ns to Sky.

How would Dean Ryan know what the 6Ns beancounters think who are based in Dublin? Dean Ryan is based in England and all his contacts are English.

The really really deeply dumb thing is that what you have brought up is an interesting point and one that is well worth a discussion or two. (And for what its worth I like seeing Italy in the 6N, even if they can often play bad and drag their opponents down to their level). But by adding in one really stupid and unnecessary little line into your comment we end up going around the same nationalistic canine cahones that often dominate this site and can drive a man nuts.

Some interviews with John Feehan on the 6Ns here. The 6Ns is very lucrative for the countries involved. Why would you mess with that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7C-dnb0ceQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FspoA7L1TFs

Interesting that the interviewer (English accent) in first youtube clip seems obsessed with Italy.

So the evidence you talk about is 12 years old. The point I make still stands. You have decided to label the British/English as 'perfidious' based on one pundit's vague comments and some historical comments from an all too brief time when England was generally streamrollering their European opponents (outside of their regular one game a 6N loss).

These things effect all of us, and if one of us are wondering about what Italy bring then any of us could be, saintly Ireland included.

Just 12 years old - I said peridious albion is at it again Wink

i.e., you've got a history of this sort of thing. Since then we have had to listen to the English press rubbish the Pro12 at every opportunity, rubbish the Irish at every opportunity - (having unfair advantage over their poor English counterparts because of a lack of meritocracy in the Pro12).

Vague comments and innuendo is the modus operandi of Perfidious Albion (i.e., sling mud and it will stick). Ryan and the Rugby paper are stirring it up? Why? Italy has been averaging about 60,000 at their home six nations games (doubled in a couple of years). You lot want to take that from them. If you do, you will destroy any interest in rugby in Italy.

The FIR have been putting money into their national academy based in Parma - with the players playing for Zebre which is a new team - give them a chance to develop. The FIR are also trying to set up a 3rd Pro team based around Venice which would mean that Italy might very soon have 3 pro teams in the Pro12.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 04 May 2015, 11:25 am

gotta love how an article about the pro12, by a welsh journalist, has been used to bash the English. I can only assume some people have so many chips they should be served with battered fish.

by The Great Aukster Mon 04 May 2015, 11:28 am

Treviso is already "around Venice" so are they making a region there instead?

by SecretFly Mon 04 May 2015, 11:28 am

Back in your box, Tiger. I warned you lot about trying to claim the: "We is hated but we don't care" title. We've won it from you fair and square. Don't be bad sports about it.

Nice try though. I liked the bit about chips.... made me ever so hungry Wink

by The Great Aukster Mon 04 May 2015, 11:30 am

SecretFly wrote:Back in your box, Tiger. I warned you lot about trying to claim the: "We is hated but we don't care" title. We've won it from you fair and square. Don't be bad sports about it.

Nice try though. I liked the bit about chips.... made me ever so hungry

Surely all's fair in love and war, especially since the demise of the British Umpire.

by Sin é Mon 04 May 2015, 11:31 am

HammerofThunor wrote:Well the PRO12 don't have a cap at all so they might jump at the chance.

We do - i.e., we don't spend money we don't have.

I wonder how the French and English teams would operate if they were only allowed 4 Non- French/English qualified players in their squads?

22 out of Saracens squad (43) are England qualified. Saracens have 7 players in hits academy.

5 out of Munster's squad (43) are non-Ireland qualified (and 1 of them is a temporary signing). Munster have 20 in their academy.

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