Is Pacquiao a fraud after 65 pro fights?

Afternoon all.
A lot of you will remember debating and chewing the fat on the old BBC 606 forum, particularly back in '04 - '07.. If I'm not mistaken, the general perception of Manny Pacquiao back then was that of a cult, hardcore fan favourite fighter who'd already been fighting professionally for almost a decade. Certainly, speaking for myself, this was largely due to his break -out performance vs Barrera, the rivalries with Marquez & Morales, and fine KO wins over undefeated fighters like Lucero & Solis, also, his personal situation seemed rather endearing, if a little surreal with stories of him being a kidnap target for guerrillas etc, etc... I also remember watching an interview with Freddie Roach in which he said he believed Manny would eventually hit his genetic peak and top out at lightweight. I thought that would have been a stretch, so, had anybody told me he'd be fighting and winning convincingly at welterweight 4 and a half years later, I would have just laughed at them. Even the step up to 135 to face the mediocre Diaz was seen as a 50/50 by many on 606 back at that time. As a comparison and reference point, we've seen how Donaire really struggled above 118lbs and was blown away at featherweight by Walters.

But most importantly, Pacquiao had already won world titles at flyweight, super bantam, feather and super feather, achievements that surely cannot come undone regardless of what happened to him at the higher weights. In fact, I'm pretty sure the people who invented the term "Pactard" and "Pacroid" were'nt even aware of when he was going to war at 122, 26 & 30 - pot calling the kettle black there. Factor in his all-action style does'nt lend itself to longevity - something we normally take into consideration when assessing a lead puncher's career - it's remarkable he was able to compete with and beat a prime Bradley for instance as I thought he was slowing down by the time he got to Margarito. I agree he benefitted from a certain degree of hype after the Hatton & Cotto wins, but quite a few people thought he'd lose to Cotto, even after the Margarito controversy and the 145 catchweight.

To me, this "Pacquiao is a fraud" tag was initially created by people who were annoyed that he was simply doing what they did'nt think he could do but alas, with the KO loss to Marquez and the clear loss to Floyd, it seems his legacy is being unfairly denigrated and people have conveniently short memories. There are less talented fighters than Manny who have lost to Floyd, yet even they seem to be spoken of in higher regard which just does'nt make sense to me. As a sidenote, I found it rather sad that Floyd Mayweather Sr seemed to take so much pleasure in Pac's tax troubles, definitely think he himself has played a major part in tarnishing Pac's legacy, what with the PED allegations initially created to try and explain away the Hatton loss. Ariza obviously legit if he is working with Floyd which only makes the allegations even more dishonest and vindictive looking to me.

Anyway, what are your thoughts about Manny's legacy? Do you remember when he was talked about on BBC 606 as a hardcore fan fave? Would he have been held in higher regard had he retired after the Margarito fight, or even had he done so before the Diaz fight?

Top 15/20.............10/15 had he won.........

You don't lose everything you've achieved over night.....

Pointless asking If he'd be held in higher regard after certain fights really.........

Who knows...........

Losing to Tyson didn't hurt Larry..........

No I don't think he's a fraud, I think he's been extremely badly advised and managed over this whole situation and has come out of it looking like a liar, a crybaby and generally not very smart.

Hopefully this will not affect his legacy but you never know as it has left a sour taste in a lot of peoples minds.

The biggest problem now is the 'pactards' that you speak of (although I hate the term, same with Flomo). Some of his ahem more hardcore fans have jumped on every words he's said as absolute proof that he was cheated out of a victory, which is sad in the extreme.

There's no disgrace in losing too Floyd (Okay people thought it may have been closer) and if he'd have handled it correctly then he could have walked out with his head held high and a lot more respect.

Have to be honest I can't say i've seen any comments that seem to be suggesting Pacquiao is a fraud or much negativity aside from being a bit of a sore loser.

Can I comment on this if I leave a certain obssesion out?

Well its hard to defend him 100% but likewise I dont feel any fighter can be defended 100% that they havent taken drugs in the apst barring Donaire who was the only boxer that had random drug testing without any controversy, no sample A fails but samplw B was fine etc

That said its not impossible to call hi ma fraud, but evidence suggest thats it is impossible to prove it.

He's an exceptional boxer and has led the pile with floyd for the last 10/15 years. An exceptional one but one who has a lot of flaws in his game. Hes famous for his exploits at 140 & 147 rightfully so but his prine weight based on his size was 126/130. His speed and stamina, not power, allow him to transend the weights imo

Atg between 20 and 30 for me but i cant be bothered to rate it anymore so yea inbetween there somewhere

Hammersmith, I'm not saying anybody on here is calling him a fraud. I was referring to the more generalised opinions posted on various websites over the last few years. I'm sure you knew that though.

AdamT wrote:Can I comment on this if I leave a certain obssesion out?

Say what you want. No worries.

I haven't seen any generalised opinions anywhere that suggest that Pacquiao is a fraud or anything less than a brilliant boxer, he tends to get a fairly easy ride considering the Marquez fights.

Think the hostility Manny is getting regards fooling the public into believing he was a 100% and obtaining money under false pretences.......

Great fighter, one of the best I have ever seen

WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs wrote:Well its hard to defend him 100% but likewise I dont feel any fighter can be defended 100% that they havent taken drugs in the apst barring Donaire who was the only boxer that had random drug testing without any controversy, no sample A fails but samplw B was fine etc

That said its not impossible to call hi ma fraud, but evidence suggest thats it is impossible to prove it.

He's an exceptional boxer and has led the pile with floyd for the last 10/15 years. An exceptional one but one who has a lot of flaws in his game. Hes famous for his exploits at 140 & 147 rightfully so but his prine weight based on his size was 126/130. His speed and stamina, not power, allow him to transend the weights imo

Atg between 20 and 30 for me but i cant be bothered to rate it anymore so yea inbetween there somewhere

When I say fraud, I'm meaning more that he has gotten this tag of "media hype job" by certain people - some rather influential - but it was ever since he stepped up to 135, 40 & 47 and NOT before that when he'd still given us a decade of hard work and exciting fights at the lower weights.

What people are these Mate ??

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Think the hostility Manny is getting regards fooling the public into believing he was a 100% and obtaining money under false pretences.......

That's fair enough Truss, but it's a separate issue. I was needling more at suggestions like that of Malignaggi - that Floyd's win proves Manny's career has been an illusion all along. I agree though, it's very disappointing and is fair comment for the public to be angry with him.

Me I don't buy a flyweight destroying Hatton like that......Marlon..

But that's just me.........

So I'm not in love with him like you..

You only have to read comments posted by people on the Youtube boxing community, regurgitating the words of Malignaggi, Floyd Sr, etc Truss. I don't know, do they not take away from Floyd's win by doing this? But like I said, the majority of what they say has been peddled for years now, back when Pacquiao was beating Clottey and Margarito.

Youtube and the like are full of gimps. On here is childs play compared to other sites and their views on boxing and various other topics.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Me I don't buy a flyweight destroying Hatton like that......Marlon..

But that's just me.........

So I'm not in love with him like you..

In love with him?! I'm simply saying that Pacquiao was once held in high regard by hardcore fans. That only changed when he fought David Diaz and beyond. If you don't buy him destroying Hatton, that must mean you suspect Ariza of giving him something illegal right? Ariza just spent 10 weeks working with Floyd. C'mon, let's not go there.

Fantatic fighter, absolutely outstanding career, genuine all-time great. None of that should ever be up for debate, really.

Pacquiao suffers with that same problem that guys such as Tyson and Hamed had - he's got a somewhat overbearing, extremely vocal and blindly loyal number of fanatics spread out amongst his more normal and / or realistic fans who give him, and those aforementioned normal fans, a bad name. I think we saw a microcosm of that on here a few years back with D4, to be honest. People got weary of him overrating every aspect of Pacquiao that as a way of overcompensating they'd often end up going too far in the opposite direction as a way of cancelling out the opposite extreme, eventually being just as short-sighted as D4 in their quest to run down Pacquiao's accomplishments and abilities.

An even bigger problem is the fact that he's coincided with another rival fighter - Mayweather - who also seems able to either totally seduce people with his TBE, PPV figure, smack talk etc approach, or completely rile them up to the point where they aren't even willing to give him sparring partner status when compared to a Ray Robinson or a Roberto Duran. Again, there's a lot less middle ground with him in the eyes of boxing fans than there is for other fighters.

Pacquiao's name has been bonded with Mayweather's by the most super of super glue for the past few years, so there have been a lot of those tribal fans going head to head, with an unwritten rule that you can't be fan of both - you have to pick a side. If you're team Manny, then there is NOTHING to admire or praise about Floyd and no basis to put him in Manny's class. If you're team Floyd, the same applies in reverse. Manny fought so and so at a catchweight which invalidates his win, yeah but at least he fought that guy - Floyd just ducked him. Manny is a bit of a philanderer? So what, Floyd is a woman beater. Floyd's only interested in money, huh? So what, Pacquiao is a drugs cheat which is worse. And on and on we went (and will probably continue to go).

Hence the need to rub in his defeat at the weekend in some quarters, and overexaggerate how much shine it takes off all that's gone before. Make no mistake, Mayweather would be getting crucified in some quarters if it'd been him that lost the fight as well. The opinions of those screaming 'fraud' aren't worth taking seriously but unfortunately with forums, social media etc you have to put up with them.

AdamT wrote:Youtube and the like are full of gimps. On here is childs play compared to other sites and their views on boxing and various other topics.

True. I am glad that we can all respectfully disagree for the most part. That's why I thought it would'nt be an exercise in futility posting on here as opposed to Youtube, and certain other forums on the other hand!

there is a bit of slagging on here but it is mostly light hearted.

88Chris05 wrote:Fantatic fighter, absolutely outstanding career, genuine all-time great. None of that should ever be up for debate, really.

Pacquiao suffers with that same problem that guys such as Tyson and Hamed had - he's got a somewhat overbearing, extremely vocal and blindly loyal number of fanatics spread out amongst his more normal and / or realistic fans who give him, and those aforementioned normal fans, a bad name. I think we saw a microcosm of that on here a few years back with D4, to be honest. People got weary of him overrating every aspect of Pacquiao that as a way of overcompensating they'd often end up going too far in the opposite direction as a way of cancelling out the opposite extreme, eventually being just as short-sighted as D4 in their quest to run down Pacquiao's accomplishments and abilities.

An even bigger problem is the fact that he's coincided with another rival fighter - Mayweather - who also seems able to either totally seduce people with his TBE, PPV figure, smack talk etc approach, or completely rile them up to the point where they aren't even willing to give him sparring partner status when compared to a Ray Robinson or a Roberto Duran. Again, there's a lot less middle ground with him in the eyes of boxing fans than there is for other fighters.

Pacquiao's name has been bonded with Mayweather's by the most super of super glue for the past few years, so there have been a lot of those tribal fans going head to head, with an unwritten rule that you can't be fan of both - you have to pick a side. If you're team Manny, then there is NOTHING to admire or praise about Floyd and no basis to put him in Manny's class. If you're team Floyd, the same applies in reverse. Manny fought so and so at a catchweight which invalidates his win, yeah but at least he fought that guy - Floyd just ducked him. Manny is a bit of a philanderer? So what, Floyd is a woman beater. Floyd's only interested in money, huh? So what, Pacquiao is a drugs cheat which is worse. And on and on we went (and will probably continue to go).

Hence the need to rub in his defeat at the weekend in some quarters, and overexaggerate how much shine it takes off all that's gone before. Make no mistake, Mayweather would be getting crucified in some quarters if it'd been him that lost the fight as well. The opinions of those screaming 'fraud' aren't worth taking seriously but unfortunately with forums, social media etc you have to put up with them.

Pretty good stuff...............

Manny's biggest problem however is Hugh McIlvanney didn't have him winning...........

Because then we'd all have to change our mind................and beg forgiveness !!

Was Manny fighting at the weekend?

I don't think you can underestimate the effect D4 had/has on a lot of forums and the fallout from that, he posts/posted the exact same diatribe on every single boxing forum there was and the counter to that can be over the top. I for instance post a load of old crap on ja606 to wind him up none of which I believe but it's amusing to see him tie himself up in knots trying to counter that load of old crap.

You do get the same thing with Mayweather in reverse, those who try countering the criticism he gets for every tiny minute thing he has ever done get accused of being flomo's or whatever the fanboy term is. I personally think Pacquiao gets a far easier ride than Mayweather does, he doesn't have his record torn apart to the smallest detail nor does he have his personality used as a way of dismissing him as a boxer.

You get fanatics on every site and anyone worth listening to will rate the pair highly, the opinion of anyone who can't appreciate or accept the greatness of them both is a bit of an idiot.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't think you can underestimate the effect D4 had/has on a lot of forums and the fallout from that, he posts/posted the exact same diatribe on every single boxing forum there was and the counter to that can be over the top. I for instance post a load of old crap on ja606 to wind him up none of which I believe but it's amusing to see him tie himself up in knots trying to counter that load of old crap.

You do get the same thing with Mayweather in reverse, those who try countering the criticism he gets for every tiny minute thing he has ever done get accused of being flomo's or whatever the fanboy term is. I personally think Pacquiao gets a far easier ride than Mayweather does, he doesn't have his record torn apart to the smallest detail nor does he have his personality used as a way of dismissing him as a boxer.

You get fanatics on every site and anyone worth listening to will rate the pair highly, the opinion of anyone who can't appreciate or accept the greatness of them both is a bit of an idiot.

Mate if that is aimed at me, I can't be bothered reading through it all.

Not used to reading through box rec myself.

Hmmm that comment makes no sense at all.

You seem to question me a lot Hammer?

I have a question for you? How long have you watched boxing mate?

88Chris05 wrote:Fantatic fighter, absolutely outstanding career, genuine all-time great. None of that should ever be up for debate, really.

Pacquiao suffers with that same problem that guys such as Tyson and Hamed had - he's got a somewhat overbearing, extremely vocal and blindly loyal number of fanatics spread out amongst his more normal and / or realistic fans who give him, and those aforementioned normal fans, a bad name. I think we saw a microcosm of that on here a few years back with D4, to be honest. People got weary of him overrating every aspect of Pacquiao that as a way of overcompensating they'd often end up going too far in the opposite direction as a way of cancelling out the opposite extreme, eventually being just as short-sighted as D4 in their quest to run down Pacquiao's accomplishments and abilities.

An even bigger problem is the fact that he's coincided with another rival fighter - Mayweather - who also seems able to either totally seduce people with his TBE, PPV figure, smack talk etc approach, or completely rile them up to the point where they aren't even willing to give him sparring partner status when compared to a Ray Robinson or a Roberto Duran. Again, there's a lot less middle ground with him in the eyes of boxing fans than there is for other fighters.

Pacquiao's name has been bonded with Mayweather's by the most super of super glue for the past few years, so there have been a lot of those tribal fans going head to head, with an unwritten rule that you can't be fan of both - you have to pick a side. If you're team Manny, then there is NOTHING to admire or praise about Floyd and no basis to put him in Manny's class. If you're team Floyd, the same applies in reverse. Manny fought so and so at a catchweight which invalidates his win, yeah but at least he fought that guy - Floyd just ducked him. Manny is a bit of a philanderer? So what, Floyd is a woman beater. Floyd's only interested in money, huh? So what, Pacquiao is a drugs cheat which is worse. And on and on we went (and will probably continue to go).

Hence the need to rub in his defeat at the weekend in some quarters, and overexaggerate how much shine it takes off all that's gone before. Make no mistake, Mayweather would be getting crucified in some quarters if it'd been him that lost the fight as well. The opinions of those screaming 'fraud' aren't worth taking seriously but unfortunately with forums, social media etc you have to put up with them.

Good points Chris, and I would'nt for a second overlook the ridicule Floyd has recieved by the more rabid Pacquiao fans, I agree that both sides are just as bad and unobjectionable - (Yeah, I remember D4 well. Was he banned from here?!)- But I wonder, will the PED rumours together with the long standing rivalry, then rather flat loss to Floyd be all that people think of when Pacquiao's name is mentioned in years to come? Not by the more rational fans of course. But I say this because of the way this kind of team sport/rival mentality has crept into boxing, where like you say, there is a misguided belief that you can only support one fighter at a time. I remember the days of Benn, Eubank and Watson and we all liked those guys equally, but for different reasons. I hope it returns to that, now this "super fight" is finally over. But something tells me it will continue!

Read the post Adam, it had nowt to do with you

totally agree Hammer, certain fans just turn you into a 180 cause they wind you up so much

88Chris05 wrote:Fantatic fighter, absolutely outstanding career, genuine all-time great. None of that should ever be up for debate, really.

Pacquiao suffers with that same problem that guys such as Tyson and Hamed had - he's got a somewhat overbearing, extremely vocal and blindly loyal number of fanatics spread out amongst his more normal and / or realistic fans who give him, and those aforementioned normal fans, a bad name. I think we saw a microcosm of that on here a few years back with D4, to be honest. People got weary of him overrating every aspect of Pacquiao that as a way of overcompensating they'd often end up going too far in the opposite direction as a way of cancelling out the opposite extreme, eventually being just as short-sighted as D4 in their quest to run down Pacquiao's accomplishments and abilities.

An even bigger problem is the fact that he's coincided with another rival fighter - Mayweather - who also seems able to either totally seduce people with his TBE, PPV figure, smack talk etc approach, or completely rile them up to the point where they aren't even willing to give him sparring partner status when compared to a Ray Robinson or a Roberto Duran. Again, there's a lot less middle ground with him in the eyes of boxing fans than there is for other fighters.

Pacquiao's name has been bonded with Mayweather's by the most super of super glue for the past few years, so there have been a lot of those tribal fans going head to head, with an unwritten rule that you can't be fan of both - you have to pick a side. If you're team Manny, then there is NOTHING to admire or praise about Floyd and no basis to put him in Manny's class. If you're team Floyd, the same applies in reverse. Manny fought so and so at a catchweight which invalidates his win, yeah but at least he fought that guy - Floyd just ducked him. Manny is a bit of a philanderer? So what, Floyd is a woman beater. Floyd's only interested in money, huh? So what, Pacquiao is a drugs cheat which is worse. And on and on we went (and will probably continue to go).

Hence the need to rub in his defeat at the weekend in some quarters, and overexaggerate how much shine it takes off all that's gone before. Make no mistake, Mayweather would be getting crucified in some quarters if it'd been him that lost the fight as well. The opinions of those screaming 'fraud' aren't worth taking seriously but unfortunately with forums, social media etc you have to put up with them.

Good points Chris, and I would'nt for a second overlook the ridicule Floyd has recieved by the more rabid Pacquiao fans, I agree that both sides are just as bad and unobjectionable - (Yeah, I remember D4 well. Was he banned from here?!)- But I wonder, will the PED rumours together with the long standing rivalry, then rather flat loss to Floyd be all that people think of when Pacquiao's name is mentioned in years to come? Not by the more rational fans of course. But I say this because of the way this kind of team sport/rival mentality has crept into boxing, where like you say, there is a misguided belief that you can only support one fighter at a time. I remember the days of Benn, Eubank and Watson and we all liked those guys equally, but for different reasons. I hope it returns to that, now this "super fight" is finally over. But something tells me it will continue!

AdamT wrote:there is a bit of slagging on here but it is mostly light hearted.

I can't speak for others, but there's nothing light hearted about my banter. I hate all you cnuts

Marlonz wrote:- (Yeah, I remember D4 well. Was he banned from here?!)-

You're welcome.

milkyboy wrote:

AdamT wrote:there is a bit of slagging on here but it is mostly light hearted.

I can't speak for others, but there's nothing light hearted about my banter. I hate all you cnuts

I've always taught my kids to be light hearted...........

How are they by the way ??

Agree that fans can influence your view on fighters. Ricky hatton always seemed an alright guy, but his fans and their blind 'Ricky is the greatest' spiel had me hating him after a while. In his case, his excuse of the month for not fighting witter was a contributory factor.

The problem with D4 is that he was so predictable...........

By the way does anybody else think Lewis is Canadian ??

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The problem with D4 is that he was so predictable...........

By the way does anybody else think Lewis is Canadian ??

He was only British when it suited him, £££££££££££!

milkyboy wrote:Agree that fans can influence your view on fighters. Ricky hatton always seemed an alright guy, but his fans and their blind 'Ricky is the greatest' spiel had me hating him after a while. In his case, his excuse of the month for not fighting witter was a contributory factor.

You're making me nostalgic for the days of Gooner.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

AdamT wrote:there is a bit of slagging on here but it is mostly light hearted.

I can't speak for others, but there's nothing light hearted about my banter. I hate all you cnuts

I've always taught my kids to be light hearted...........

How are they by the way ??

Still in special needs school truss.

AdamT wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The problem with D4 is that he was so predictable...........

By the way does anybody else think Lewis is Canadian ??

He was only British when it suited him, £££££££££££!

It's a kind of an in-joke Adam...

Yeah I am joking too, have seen it mentioned before!

Must be overdue a rolled like a drunk thread Truss. Should never forget your classics, The Rolling Stones still play satisfaction live.

Lewis being Canadian, Mayweather-Pacquiao, Mike Tyson - some great potential material here for when Rowley next decides to sell out again and go all Mr. Popular on us in an article.

milkyboy wrote:Agree that fans can influence your view on fighters. Ricky hatton always seemed an alright guy, but his fans and their blind 'Ricky is the greatest' spiel had me hating him after a while. In his case, his excuse of the month for not fighting witter was a contributory factor.

Yeah, I remember the Hatton/footie types. Even after he lost to Floyd, all you heard was "Well, what other fighter could take 20,000 screaming fans to Vegas with him..." as if that gave Ricky some kind of moral victory!?

88Chris05 wrote:Lewis being Canadian, Mayweather-Pacquiao, Mike Tyson - some great potential material here for when Rowley next decides to sell out again and go all Mr. Popular on us in an article.

Might do a Tyson one Chris, am considering a Tiger Flowers thread if I can ever stop being idle. The Tyson thread will compensate for the tumbleweed that will inevitably greet that one. I pretend I don't care, we all know I'm fooling nobody.

Rowley wrote:

Marlonz wrote:- (Yeah, I remember D4 well. Was he banned from here?!)-

You're welcome.

I see! I am trying to get back on here more.. Just catching up...

I want to try and get a steady flow of historical articles going again as well, Jeff, but am suffering some serious block these days.

Marlonz wrote:Is Pacquiao a fraud after 65 pro fights?

The guy is not a "fraud", he's a legend and an all time great and will be remembered as such. The only thing that can change this is if he is proved to been a drug cheat, and I really don't believe this is going to happen.

Marlonz wrote:

milkyboy wrote:Agree that fans can influence your view on fighters. Ricky hatton always seemed an alright guy, but his fans and their blind 'Ricky is the greatest' spiel had me hating him after a while. In his case, his excuse of the month for not fighting witter was a contributory factor.

Yeah, I remember the Hatton/footie types. Even after he lost to Floyd, all you heard was "Well, what other fighter could take 20,000 screaming fans to Vegas with him..." as if that gave Ricky some kind of moral victory!?

Hatton wasn't the best fighter from these shores, he gave his fans a roller coaster ride, probably the most popular boxer ever from the UK, and one of the most approachable outside the ring as well.

It wasn't just City fans who supported Hatton, and its right, what other fighter could take 20000 fans to Vegas, none I can think of off hand.

Hatton fan and not apoligising for it, 2 weight world champ, Ricky done good..