Pro 12 attendances

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
Let's first get an idea of the terrain.

How much does WRU spend per year?  How much does the RFU spend?  Do we know?

I don't really understand how that has anything to do with what we are talking about. But for the record, I make it:

RFU= £13.75m
IRFU= £11.8m
WRU = £8.7m

If you don't understand what other Unions spend on their Pro Rugby has to do with working out what the IRFU spend, and why, then I'm not the man to explain such an elementary point to you.

That's strange about Wales though.  I see them allocating to Regions alone - Regions alone - £17 million in 2014. (Their own accounts page)

Am I wrong?  Am I reading it wrong?  If I'm right then how much more goes into International?

So try again on them and their overall spending on Pro Rugby.

RFU too - they spend less on Pro Rugby per year than the WRU spend on Regions alone?

Try again with them too.  I have £44M

Griff wrote:I honestly don't see what's wrong with not liking home Sunday games. Ulster fans have said previously that they like Friday games and requested them and, beacuse their broadcaster also liked Friday games they got their wish. Ulster fans said they too would not prefer Sunday games because 'it did not suit them as much as Friday games'. Why do we in Wales have to like it? Or to put it another way, why is raising concerns about Sunday games frowned upon for Dragons fans by others?

I've posted before that even though attendances are up overall (thanks Pot Hale for the stats) the equivalent Dragons Sunday home fixtures this year are down on last year when they played those teams on a Friday or Saturday. We've been told to 'get our house in order' and stop tarnishing the league with empty stadia. So why not challenge the poorer attended Sunday fixtures, for the good of the club and league as a whole?

So I guess I don't understand the sarcastic comments from Secretfly et al. about the Dragons gripes with Sunday games. What gives?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Wow.  So a post that is a straight out dig at a poster is getting a rave review.  I really can't believe how bad this site has got.

you've got to admit it's pretty funny...

.

No not really. It is pretty disrespectful and with the whole 'natural overlords' nonsense it is pretty offensive too. But I'm sure for the way things are, it will be seen as a perfectly fair comment.

Griff wrote:

So I guess I don't understand the sarcastic comments from Secretfly et al. about the Dragons gripes with Sunday games. What gives?

Notch wrote:

I don't think anyone has any problem with Dragons fans not liking Sunday games, in fact it's completely justified and understandable. The reason there is a degree of 'broken record' when the topic comes up is that on here the Sunday games issue has often been offered up as evidence of how the league is fundamentally broken, even alleged that it's an example of preferential treatment. All a bit over-dramatic; actually it's an issue which originates with one specific broadcaster and the solution needs to come from making a better deal with broadcast partners regarding Sunday games. All parties involved need to re-negotiate with S4C to ensure a fair balance of fixtures. The welsh regions with the support of the league will need to negotiate with S4C to stop this from happening in the next round of broadcasting negotiations. No-one would reasonably dispute any of that.

Notch wrote:

Griff wrote:I honestly don't see what's wrong with not liking home Sunday games. Ulster fans have said previously that they like Friday games and requested them and, beacuse their broadcaster also liked Friday games they got their wish. Ulster fans said they too would not prefer Sunday games because 'it did not suit them as much as Friday games'. Why do we in Wales have to like it? Or to put it another way, why is raising concerns about Sunday games frowned upon for Dragons fans by others?

I've posted before that even though attendances are up overall (thanks Pot Hale for the stats) the equivalent Dragons Sunday home fixtures this year are down on last year when they played those teams on a Friday or Saturday. We've been told to 'get our house in order' and stop tarnishing the league with empty stadia. So why not challenge the poorer attended Sunday fixtures, for the good of the club and league as a whole?

So I guess I don't understand the sarcastic comments from Secretfly et al. about the Dragons gripes with Sunday games. What gives?

I don't think anyone has any problem with Dragons fans not liking Sunday games, in fact it's completely justified and understandable. The reason there is a degree of 'broken record' when the topic comes up is that on here the Sunday games issue has often been offered up as evidence of how the league is fundamentally broken, even alleged that it's an example of preferential treatment. All a bit over-dramatic; actually it's an issue which originates with one specific broadcaster and the solution needs to come from making a better deal with broadcast partners regarding Sunday games. All parties involved need to re-negotiate with S4C to ensure a fair balance of fixtures. The welsh regions with the support of the league will need to negotiate with S4C to stop this from happening in the next round of broadcasting negotiations. No-one would reasonably dispute any of that.

Griff wrote:I honestly don't see what's wrong with not liking home Sunday games. Ulster fans have said previously that they like Friday games and requested them and, beacuse their broadcaster also liked Friday games they got their wish. Ulster fans said they too would not prefer Sunday games because 'it did not suit them as much as Friday games'. Why do we in Wales have to like it? Or to put it another way, why is raising concerns about Sunday games frowned upon for Dragons fans by others?

I've posted before that even though attendances are up overall (thanks Pot Hale for the stats) the equivalent Dragons Sunday home fixtures this year are down on last year when they played those teams on a Friday or Saturday. We've been told to 'get our house in order' and stop tarnishing the league with empty stadia. So why not challenge the poorer attended Sunday fixtures, for the good of the club and league as a whole?

So I guess I don't understand the sarcastic comments from Secretfly et al. about the Dragons gripes with Sunday games. What gives?

Griff wrote:

Notch wrote:

Griff wrote:I honestly don't see what's wrong with not liking home Sunday games. Ulster fans have said previously that they like Friday games and requested them and, beacuse their broadcaster also liked Friday games they got their wish. Ulster fans said they too would not prefer Sunday games because 'it did not suit them as much as Friday games'. Why do we in Wales have to like it? Or to put it another way, why is raising concerns about Sunday games frowned upon for Dragons fans by others?

I've posted before that even though attendances are up overall (thanks Pot Hale for the stats) the equivalent Dragons Sunday home fixtures this year are down on last year when they played those teams on a Friday or Saturday. We've been told to 'get our house in order' and stop tarnishing the league with empty stadia. So why not challenge the poorer attended Sunday fixtures, for the good of the club and league as a whole?

So I guess I don't understand the sarcastic comments from Secretfly et al. about the Dragons gripes with Sunday games. What gives?

I don't think anyone has any problem with Dragons fans not liking Sunday games, in fact it's completely justified and understandable. The reason there is a degree of 'broken record' when the topic comes up is that on here the Sunday games issue has often been offered up as evidence of how the league is fundamentally broken, even alleged that it's an example of preferential treatment. All a bit over-dramatic; actually it's an issue which originates with one specific broadcaster and the solution needs to come from making a better deal with broadcast partners regarding Sunday games. All parties involved need to re-negotiate with S4C to ensure a fair balance of fixtures. The welsh regions with the support of the league will need to negotiate with S4C to stop this from happening in the next round of broadcasting negotiations. No-one would reasonably dispute any of that.

I agree that it's the broadcaster that needs negotiation. But there's not many on here that would agree with you that our gripes are 'justified and understandable'. In fact most posts on this topic have been met with derision. But yes, renegotiation needs to be done. Mainly by the Dragons who get the short end of the stick for no benefit (be it monetary, marketing/exposure, etc.)

Munchkin wrote:

Griff wrote:I honestly don't see what's wrong with not liking home Sunday games. Ulster fans have said previously that they like Friday games and requested them and, beacuse their broadcaster also liked Friday games they got their wish. Ulster fans said they too would not prefer Sunday games because 'it did not suit them as much as Friday games'. Why do we in Wales have to like it? Or to put it another way, why is raising concerns about Sunday games frowned upon for Dragons fans by others?

I've posted before that even though attendances are up overall (thanks Pot Hale for the stats) the equivalent Dragons Sunday home fixtures this year are down on last year when they played those teams on a Friday or Saturday. We've been told to 'get our house in order' and stop tarnishing the league with empty stadia. So why not challenge the poorer attended Sunday fixtures, for the good of the club and league as a whole?

So I guess I don't understand the sarcastic comments from Secretfly et al. about the Dragons gripes with Sunday games. What gives?

Don't think we requested them. It's true that we like Friday games, and that it works great for BBCNI though. It's also true that we don't want Sunday games.

You don't have to like it. Nobody has ever said you should. I do think other supporters are fed up hearing the mantra, 'what about the Sunday games?' Not so much a question as an accusation. As if somehow we are part of a conspiracy forcing any of the Regions to play Sundays. That's the accusation from some quarters and it's nonsense. The fact that it's nonsense, and it's shown to be nonsense is ignored by those who would rather live in ignorance and pretend it's all the fault of the Irish, the IRFU, the provinces. They simply do not want to look under that rock which is closer to home.

ME-109 wrote:

Griff wrote:

Notch wrote:

Griff wrote:I honestly don't see what's wrong with not liking home Sunday games. Ulster fans have said previously that they like Friday games and requested them and, beacuse their broadcaster also liked Friday games they got their wish. Ulster fans said they too would not prefer Sunday games because 'it did not suit them as much as Friday games'. Why do we in Wales have to like it? Or to put it another way, why is raising concerns about Sunday games frowned upon for Dragons fans by others?

I've posted before that even though attendances are up overall (thanks Pot Hale for the stats) the equivalent Dragons Sunday home fixtures this year are down on last year when they played those teams on a Friday or Saturday. We've been told to 'get our house in order' and stop tarnishing the league with empty stadia. So why not challenge the poorer attended Sunday fixtures, for the good of the club and league as a whole?

So I guess I don't understand the sarcastic comments from Secretfly et al. about the Dragons gripes with Sunday games. What gives?

I don't think anyone has any problem with Dragons fans not liking Sunday games, in fact it's completely justified and understandable. The reason there is a degree of 'broken record' when the topic comes up is that on here the Sunday games issue has often been offered up as evidence of how the league is fundamentally broken, even alleged that it's an example of preferential treatment. All a bit over-dramatic; actually it's an issue which originates with one specific broadcaster and the solution needs to come from making a better deal with broadcast partners regarding Sunday games. All parties involved need to re-negotiate with S4C to ensure a fair balance of fixtures. The welsh regions with the support of the league will need to negotiate with S4C to stop this from happening in the next round of broadcasting negotiations. No-one would reasonably dispute any of that.

I agree that it's the broadcaster that needs negotiation. But there's not many on here that would agree with you that our gripes are 'justified and understandable'. In fact most posts on this topic have been met with derision. But yes, renegotiation needs to be done. Mainly by the Dragons who get the short end of the stick for no benefit (be it monetary, marketing/exposure, etc.)

What points have been met with derision and which posters disagree with the gripes concerning sunday games? Given posters are tired of the rather spurious arguments from Chunks concerning the league maybe some other poster who agrees with him could come out with some clear listing of the issues. At the moment all some people are seeing is a load of complaining for nothing...this post being a classic example.

So what is it you or  Dowlais or scarlet or whoever want exactly.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

You're forgetting the £10m from competition incomes, which brings Wales to £18.7m (formerly £16.9m, although that figure included a phantom £1m carrot on a string that Roger Lewis lied about, so it was actually £15.9m)

No idea what the £44m figure you are looking at is. If you think the RFU gives their pro clubs £44m a year funding, then you're even more misguided than I realised.

ME-109 wrote:

Griff wrote:

Notch wrote:

Griff wrote:I honestly don't see what's wrong with not liking home Sunday games. Ulster fans have said previously that they like Friday games and requested them and, beacuse their broadcaster also liked Friday games they got their wish. Ulster fans said they too would not prefer Sunday games because 'it did not suit them as much as Friday games'. Why do we in Wales have to like it? Or to put it another way, why is raising concerns about Sunday games frowned upon for Dragons fans by others?

I've posted before that even though attendances are up overall (thanks Pot Hale for the stats) the equivalent Dragons Sunday home fixtures this year are down on last year when they played those teams on a Friday or Saturday. We've been told to 'get our house in order' and stop tarnishing the league with empty stadia. So why not challenge the poorer attended Sunday fixtures, for the good of the club and league as a whole?

So I guess I don't understand the sarcastic comments from Secretfly et al. about the Dragons gripes with Sunday games. What gives?

I don't think anyone has any problem with Dragons fans not liking Sunday games, in fact it's completely justified and understandable. The reason there is a degree of 'broken record' when the topic comes up is that on here the Sunday games issue has often been offered up as evidence of how the league is fundamentally broken, even alleged that it's an example of preferential treatment. All a bit over-dramatic; actually it's an issue which originates with one specific broadcaster and the solution needs to come from making a better deal with broadcast partners regarding Sunday games. All parties involved need to re-negotiate with S4C to ensure a fair balance of fixtures. The welsh regions with the support of the league will need to negotiate with S4C to stop this from happening in the next round of broadcasting negotiations. No-one would reasonably dispute any of that.

I agree that it's the broadcaster that needs negotiation. But there's not many on here that would agree with you that our gripes are 'justified and understandable'. In fact most posts on this topic have been met with derision. But yes, renegotiation needs to be done. Mainly by the Dragons who get the short end of the stick for no benefit (be it monetary, marketing/exposure, etc.)

What points have been met with derision and which posters disagree with the gripes concerning sunday games? Given posters are tired of the rather spurious arguments from Chunks concerning the league maybe some other poster who agrees with him could come out with some clear listing of the issues. At the moment all some people are seeing is a load of complaining for nothing...this post being a classic example.

So what is it you or  Dowlais or scarlet or whoever want exactly.

Griff wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

Griff wrote:

Notch wrote:

Griff wrote:I honestly don't see what's wrong with not liking home Sunday games. Ulster fans have said previously that they like Friday games and requested them and, beacuse their broadcaster also liked Friday games they got their wish. Ulster fans said they too would not prefer Sunday games because 'it did not suit them as much as Friday games'. Why do we in Wales have to like it? Or to put it another way, why is raising concerns about Sunday games frowned upon for Dragons fans by others?

I've posted before that even though attendances are up overall (thanks Pot Hale for the stats) the equivalent Dragons Sunday home fixtures this year are down on last year when they played those teams on a Friday or Saturday. We've been told to 'get our house in order' and stop tarnishing the league with empty stadia. So why not challenge the poorer attended Sunday fixtures, for the good of the club and league as a whole?

So I guess I don't understand the sarcastic comments from Secretfly et al. about the Dragons gripes with Sunday games. What gives?

I don't think anyone has any problem with Dragons fans not liking Sunday games, in fact it's completely justified and understandable. The reason there is a degree of 'broken record' when the topic comes up is that on here the Sunday games issue has often been offered up as evidence of how the league is fundamentally broken, even alleged that it's an example of preferential treatment. All a bit over-dramatic; actually it's an issue which originates with one specific broadcaster and the solution needs to come from making a better deal with broadcast partners regarding Sunday games. All parties involved need to re-negotiate with S4C to ensure a fair balance of fixtures. The welsh regions with the support of the league will need to negotiate with S4C to stop this from happening in the next round of broadcasting negotiations. No-one would reasonably dispute any of that.

I agree that it's the broadcaster that needs negotiation. But there's not many on here that would agree with you that our gripes are 'justified and understandable'. In fact most posts on this topic have been met with derision. But yes, renegotiation needs to be done. Mainly by the Dragons who get the short end of the stick for no benefit (be it monetary, marketing/exposure, etc.)

What points have been met with derision and which posters disagree with the gripes concerning sunday games? Given posters are tired of the rather spurious arguments from Chunks concerning the league maybe some other poster who agrees with him could come out with some clear listing of the issues. At the moment all some people are seeing is a load of complaining for nothing...this post being a classic example.

So what is it you or  Dowlais or scarlet or whoever want exactly.

Strange question. Umm, different things I should imagine. As I imagine you and Sin e, and Notch and 'Fly and Jen and Pot Hale would probably want different things for your teams. But to answer your question, for me I'd like more Friday and Saturday home games as they attract bigger crowds (up to 20% higher) and that's better for business, attracting fans, attracting players, better for the league, etc. But I don't speak for everyone.

Griff wrote:

Strange question. Umm, different things I should imagine. As I imagine you and Sin e, and Notch and 'Fly and Jen and Pot Hale would probably want different things for your teams. But to answer your question, for me I'd like more Friday and Saturday home games as they attract bigger crowds (up to 20% higher) and that's better for business, attracting fans, attracting players, better for the league, etc. But I don't speak for everyone.

Griff wrote:

Notch wrote:

Griff wrote:I honestly don't see what's wrong with not liking home Sunday games. Ulster fans have said previously that they like Friday games and requested them and, beacuse their broadcaster also liked Friday games they got their wish. Ulster fans said they too would not prefer Sunday games because 'it did not suit them as much as Friday games'. Why do we in Wales have to like it? Or to put it another way, why is raising concerns about Sunday games frowned upon for Dragons fans by others?

I've posted before that even though attendances are up overall (thanks Pot Hale for the stats) the equivalent Dragons Sunday home fixtures this year are down on last year when they played those teams on a Friday or Saturday. We've been told to 'get our house in order' and stop tarnishing the league with empty stadia. So why not challenge the poorer attended Sunday fixtures, for the good of the club and league as a whole?

So I guess I don't understand the sarcastic comments from Secretfly et al. about the Dragons gripes with Sunday games. What gives?

I don't think anyone has any problem with Dragons fans not liking Sunday games, in fact it's completely justified and understandable. The reason there is a degree of 'broken record' when the topic comes up is that on here the Sunday games issue has often been offered up as evidence of how the league is fundamentally broken, even alleged that it's an example of preferential treatment. All a bit over-dramatic; actually it's an issue which originates with one specific broadcaster and the solution needs to come from making a better deal with broadcast partners regarding Sunday games. All parties involved need to re-negotiate with S4C to ensure a fair balance of fixtures. The welsh regions with the support of the league will need to negotiate with S4C to stop this from happening in the next round of broadcasting negotiations. No-one would reasonably dispute any of that.

I agree that it's the broadcaster that needs negotiation. But there's not many on here that would agree with you that our gripes are 'justified and understandable'. In fact most posts on this topic have been met with derision. But yes, renegotiation needs to be done. Mainly by the Dragons who get the short end of the stick for no benefit (be it monetary, marketing/exposure, etc.)

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky you're bouncing figures.  Stick to the figure you mentioned in the beginning.  

That was 32M Euro?  IRFU's Pro Rugby spend, as described by you. Yes?

I'm saying that according to the WRU's own figures for 2014, the Regions alone are down for a spending of some £9M over what you had down as WRUs complete spend?
I say add in the International spend to the £17M quoted for the Regional spend to get a closer approximation of overall WRU Pro Rugby spend.  

I say too that RFU don't own any of the 12 AP sides and even they get to put down £44M under their Pro Rugby spend for 2014.  One would assume mostly invested in the International game.

So if IRFU spend on International, like the other two - and fund 4 Professional rugby sides - then the Pro Rugby spend of 32M Euro still seems to you like tons of money to Provinces alone?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Griff wrote:I honestly don't see what's wrong with not liking home Sunday games. Ulster fans have said previously that they like Friday games and requested them and, beacuse their broadcaster also liked Friday games they got their wish. Ulster fans said they too would not prefer Sunday games because 'it did not suit them as much as Friday games'. Why do we in Wales have to like it? Or to put it another way, why is raising concerns about Sunday games frowned upon for Dragons fans by others?

I've posted before that even though attendances are up overall (thanks Pot Hale for the stats) the equivalent Dragons Sunday home fixtures this year are down on last year when they played those teams on a Friday or Saturday. We've been told to 'get our house in order' and stop tarnishing the league with empty stadia. So why not challenge the poorer attended Sunday fixtures, for the good of the club and league as a whole?

So I guess I don't understand the sarcastic comments from Secretfly et al. about the Dragons gripes with Sunday games. What gives?

Don't think we requested them. It's true that we like Friday games, and that it works great for BBCNI though. It's also true that we don't want Sunday games.

You don't have to like it. Nobody has ever said you should. I do think other supporters are fed up hearing the mantra, 'what about the Sunday games?' Not so much a question as an accusation. As if somehow we are part of a conspiracy forcing any of the Regions to play Sundays. That's the accusation from some quarters and it's nonsense. The fact that it's nonsense, and it's shown to be nonsense is ignored by those who would rather live in ignorance and pretend it's all the fault of the Irish, the IRFU, the provinces. They simply do not want to look under that rock which is closer to home.

Question: Now that this schedule is up and running, when the tv deal is next up for renegotiation, do you think:

1) Ulster will merrily agree to forgo their Friday night routine slot in favour of a more balanced league (i.e. - play  4 or 5 home games on Sundays)

or

2) Fight all they can to retain these Friday games?

SecretFly wrote:

Griff wrote:

Strange question. Umm, different things I should imagine. As I imagine you and Sin e, and Notch and 'Fly and Jen and Pot Hale would probably want different things for your teams. But to answer your question, for me I'd like more Friday and Saturday home games as they attract bigger crowds (up to 20% higher) and that's better for business, attracting fans, attracting players, better for the league, etc. But I don't speak for everyone.

And all some of us are saying back is that preferred days of the weekend are fine.  Nobody has to like Sunday and people are allowed like Friday.  But the Sunday games for mostly Dragons seems to have been a specific agreement between the Welsh element of Pro12 during negotiations between WRU and/or the Regional body and/or Dragons and S4C.

We can't help there.  It isn't really a Pro12 issue - it's a local interest issue whereby S4C seem to want uncontested timeframes for their coverage to ensure people tune in and make their investment pay them back with viewership.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

What on earth are you talking about? The figures are:

RFU= £13.75m
IRFU= £11.8m
WRU = £8.7m

Or, including the competition income:

RFU= £23.75m
IRFU= £21.8m (the 32m Euro figure)
WRU= £18.7m

Honestly, I think you need to do some reading around of the subject because you're just squitting out nonsense.

But you've diverted it nicely enough as always, as none of it has anything to do with the amount that Irish teams spend on their wages compared to the others.

SecretFly wrote:

I honestly think you need better figures.

So now we're down to £18.7M for WRU that don't own all their Regions... and £21.8M to the IRFU that do own their 4 Provinces.  

So that's a difference of £3.1M between the BIG!!! spending IRFU that own the Four Pro12 Irish teams and the alleged poor boys of the WRU who don't own the four Pro12 Welsh sides?  

And again divide that £3.1M in four and that's £750,000 approx. per Province per year that IRFU dish out to their teams over and above what WRU give to Regions?  Remembering always that IRFU own the Provinces and have a right to fund them in the first place.

Massive differences in funding there!!!!  32M Euros from the IRFU is positively shameful!!

Griff wrote:

And this here is part of the debate problem. I've never asked anyone else to help. I've never blamed anyone for it.

Chunky Norwich wrote:
You also refuse to believe that the individual branches contribute also. To the tune of a few million Euros. So it is a massive difference.

SecretFly wrote:

Griff wrote:

And this here is part of the debate problem. I've never asked anyone else to help. I've never blamed anyone for it.

I'm addressing the issue.  Not you.  I've told you before, some other posters - not you - have made issues of many things over the season.  Sunday games was one of them.  I brought Sunday Games up here for fun when Chunky introduced his 32M stuff - after all, if we're going to drift away from the original topic then Sunday games are as good a topic as any.

You in turn pleaded total ignorance as to why I'd bring up Sunday games. Yet subsequently you've proven you know damn well why I brought it up and have quite intricate views on the topic yourself

So the topic is my subject matter - and that's why I say its a local issue of concern to Welsh rugby and their negotiators and Broadcasters - not us.  I say that because Irish complicity in Dragons Sunday games tended to be yet another stone to throw our way when the topic was hot a few months or weeks ago.

Griff wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Griff wrote:

And this here is part of the debate problem. I've never asked anyone else to help. I've never blamed anyone for it.

I'm addressing the issue.  Not you.  I've told you before, some other posters - not you - have made issues of many things over the season.  Sunday games was one of them.  I brought Sunday Games up here for fun when Chunky introduced his 32M stuff - after all, if we're going to drift away from the original topic then Sunday games are as good a topic as any.

You in turn pleaded total ignorance as to why I'd bring up Sunday games. Yet subsequently you've proven you know damn well why I brought it up and have quite intricate views on the topic yourself

So the topic is my subject matter - and that's why I say its a local issue of concern to Welsh rugby and their negotiators and Broadcasters - not us.  I say that because Irish complicity in Dragons Sunday games tended to be yet another stone to throw our way when the topic was hot a few months or weeks ago.

Never read such a condescending post. It's not your topic. You do not own it. ME and Notch have discussed it this last page too, and in a manner much more fitting decent debate.

SecretFly wrote:

Griff wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Griff wrote:

And this here is part of the debate problem. I've never asked anyone else to help. I've never blamed anyone for it.

I'm addressing the issue.  Not you.  I've told you before, some other posters - not you - have made issues of many things over the season.  Sunday games was one of them.  I brought Sunday Games up here for fun when Chunky introduced his 32M stuff - after all, if we're going to drift away from the original topic then Sunday games are as good a topic as any.

You in turn pleaded total ignorance as to why I'd bring up Sunday games. Yet subsequently you've proven you know damn well why I brought it up and have quite intricate views on the topic yourself

So the topic is my subject matter - and that's why I say its a local issue of concern to Welsh rugby and their negotiators and Broadcasters - not us.  I say that because Irish complicity in Dragons Sunday games tended to be yet another stone to throw our way when the topic was hot a few months or weeks ago.

Never read such a condescending post. It's not your topic. You do not own it. ME and Notch have discussed it this last page too, and in a manner much more fitting decent debate.

I don't care who discussed it... you made your above comment to me.  I only care about what you say to me.  

You suggested that I'm wrong to claim you're personally looking for help with the Sunday game stuff.  I EXPLAINED to You that I wasn't accusing you personally of begging for help at all but Addressing the issue itself - Sunday games, and them being a distinctly Welsh issue that the Welsh will solve by themselves without our interference.

But continue misreading if you want to get offended.

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:
You also refuse to believe that the individual branches contribute also. To the tune of a few million Euros. So it is a massive difference.

You refuse to believe that Private Clubs also alleged fund themselves a bit???

It's not massive and none of your figures can prove it's massive.  But of course that only shows when you're forced to put all the figures up there.  You were nice an comfortable when you thought people would let you only use the 32M Euro one.

Griff wrote:

Not offended, just... disappointed. I'm amazed how one poster has such a hold over you.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Of course private clubs are funding themsleves. You are the one who brought Union money into it. You are awfully confused. I seriously recommend you get your head around the difference between Union run sides and the other.

This is the statement we are discusing:

"the provinces spend about the same as the salary cap in England"

Now we know that the IRFU pays for provincial players (plus coaches) a sum just short of £23m per year. Come back to me when that's finally settled in, and have a think about what it means for the 4 pro sides in Ireland compared to the £4.5m salary cap in England. (And don't forget Connacht are a development side)

SecretFly wrote:

Griff wrote:

Not offended, just... disappointed. I'm amazed how one poster has such a hold over you.

He doesn't.  But I do challenge him.  This is a Forum for typing and discussion.  It's not for Twitter soundbites.  I don't use it from a Smartphone.  I'm watching TV and using a laptop.

This is a discussion forum and you know Chunky has his many thinly veiled threads, goading and - well - often bluntly offending Irish rugby.

Now he doesn't get free rides with that guff.  He's welcome to his threads - but he doesn't get free rides.  He gets it back.  And everyone here is here because this is yet another typical Chunky thread and they know they'll see Heat.    Chunky writes poster friendly threads.... bees to honey, flies to schit.   I'm a Fly

You're disappointed, so am I.  You uncharacteristically totally misread a post and the depth of the misread baffled me.  "So the topic is my subject matter" - You seriously interpreted that as me claiming the topic as Mine??

SecretFly wrote:

You've used figures to 'Prove' that IRFU pay their Provinces 750,000 each more than the WRU gives to the Regions.

The WRU don't own the Regions and yet they're just short 750,000 each per team contribution?

You think that 'Proves' that Irish sides spend MORE than the English Salary Cap that isn't even being adhered to and seems to be just a publicity stunt?

Munchkin wrote:Just checked out the Cardiff RFC fans site. The analysis of the data maybe should be questioned, but I thought the question raised on the analysis of Welsh supporters participation on the blog was interesting:

European Competition attendances

"These trends raise a number of questions for Welsh rugby. Should we be worried about the drop of almost 80,000 in the attendance at European Champions rugby games in Wales? People will surely just watch Challenge Cup games instead, right? Subsequent blogs will address these questions, but perhaps a more fundamental question that needs to be answered is why Welsh rugby sacrificed a guaranteed place in Champions rugby? What did we gain for this sacrifice? Some may argue that our teams are not competitive in this competition, but the only way to get better is to play against the best. After all, Cardiff are one of only two teams to defeat Toulon in Europe in the last two years. Paying customers are attracted by quality – even the quality of the opposition. Without that exposure, our clubs are being robbed of revenue and the game in Wales will suffer. Finally, the best sporting competitions are comprised of participants any of whom can win on a given day. Cardiff indeed proved this two seasons ago. But with the huge disparity in TV deals signed between England, France and the Pro12, what can be done to arrest the transformation of the European Champions Cup into an Anglo-French competition?"

Why indeed, and at what cost the sacrifice?

Munchkin wrote:

That the Regions owners aren't contributing as much as they should back into the Regions?

Serious question. It seems reasonable but I don't know.

ME-109 wrote:There are figures being bandied about here to beat the band. All I know from the IRFU accounts is that the Player and Mgmt costs are around the same as 2012 and dropped from 2013.

Given it is unclear what the Clubs plus Unions are paying in Wales and England for example there is no possible comparison unless the actual player incomes are published or at least to the level of total player Salaries (Union and Club in Wales/England, IRFU and Provinces in Ireland).

So chunks can you provide those figures for Wales and England. Otherwise its all innuendo. In fact all your posts are just innuendo.

Griff wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Just checked out the Cardiff RFC fans site. The analysis of the data maybe should be questioned, but I thought the question raised on the analysis of Welsh supporters participation on the blog was interesting:

European Competition attendances

"These trends raise a number of questions for Welsh rugby. Should we be worried about the drop of almost 80,000 in the attendance at European Champions rugby games in Wales? People will surely just watch Challenge Cup games instead, right? Subsequent blogs will address these questions, but perhaps a more fundamental question that needs to be answered is why Welsh rugby sacrificed a guaranteed place in Champions rugby? What did we gain for this sacrifice? Some may argue that our teams are not competitive in this competition, but the only way to get better is to play against the best. After all, Cardiff are one of only two teams to defeat Toulon in Europe in the last two years. Paying customers are attracted by quality – even the quality of the opposition. Without that exposure, our clubs are being robbed of revenue and the game in Wales will suffer. Finally, the best sporting competitions are comprised of participants any of whom can win on a given day. Cardiff indeed proved this two seasons ago. But with the huge disparity in TV deals signed between England, France and the Pro12, what can be done to arrest the transformation of the European Champions Cup into an Anglo-French competition?"

Why indeed, and at what cost the sacrifice?

Are you saying that the Welsh clubs were to blame for changes to the European Cup?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

ME-109 wrote:There are figures being bandied about here to beat the band. All I know from the IRFU accounts is that the Player and Mgmt costs are around the same as 2012 and dropped from 2013.

Given it is unclear what the Clubs plus Unions are paying in Wales and England for example there is no possible comparison unless the actual player incomes are published or at least to the level of total player Salaries (Union and Club in Wales/England, IRFU and Provinces in Ireland).

So chunks can you provide those figures for Wales and England. Otherwise its all innuendo. In fact all your posts are just innuendo.

I've already given these figures 3 times in the last 6 hours.

How do you think the 32m Euros break down into provincial salary spend?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

That the Regions owners aren't contributing as much as they should back into the Regions?

Serious question. It seems reasonable but I don't know.

You can't spend money you don't have.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Im not saying either is more credible than the other as both lack sufficient detail but provide an insight, you seem to think that because ones a figure its a full picture. I deal with figures daily and trust me its meaningless without knowing what exactly Pro Rugby expenditure is. This may or may not include the test squad, Wolfhounds, U20s, provincial salaries, coaches across the pro game, travel for teams and academies (which if Im not mistaken are not included in the AP salary cap).

Nope. Those are included in a different section. It does include pro coaches however.

You see Chunky this why people are sceptical of your posts, you knew what was included in the figures but failed to include the correct figure

The breakdown of the costs are

Professional game costs
                                                2013/14      2012/13    2011/12
                                                      €                €              €
National tours, camps and squads 789,970      925,888    255,830
National match costs                   3,172,874  2,717,260   2,549,988
Player and management costs     27,908,170 28,576,706 28,648,479
                                                31,871,014 32,219,854 31,454,297

I've just quoted the 31.8m figure for last year. How you can be sceptical of that probably says more about your mindset than mine.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

That the Regions owners aren't contributing as much as they should back into the Regions?

Serious question. It seems reasonable but I don't know.

You can't spend money you don't have.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

That the Regions owners aren't contributing as much as they should back into the Regions?

Serious question. It seems reasonable but I don't know.

You can't spend money you don't have.

Munchkin wrote:

Fair enough, but they are the owners. Not WRU. As owners does the buck not stop with them? Should the question not be 'why have the owners failed in generating revenue for each of the Regions?'

Why should the WRU pay as much as IRFU for teams they do not own? .

marty2086 wrote:

Heres how!

You quoted 32m as a figure comparable to the AP salary cap, when challenged on possible alternatives you stated no those aren't in it but this is.

You used the inflated figure for what ever idea your trying push and then when the true figures are pointed out its someone else who has the problem

ME-109 wrote:

you have not provided a breakdown of total salaries paid to Welsh and English players from the unions and clubs. Unless you can provide that plus the complete breakdown of the IRFU figures then the comparison is not possible.

You can (and have) certainly speculate but given the total control of the union in Ireland of the provinces then the accounts seem to suggest that the English have high costs and given you haven't provided the specific welsh region accounts then we can only assume they are paying the players quite a bit as well.