Pro 12 attendances

First topic message reminder :

Good article here:

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk/editorials/some-stats-on-the-pro12-2014-15-season/

wayne wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:It was Poopie. And my team won.

I didn't expect any other response from you, and that has nothing to do with your team winning.

Honest opinion. Very dull atmosphere, terrible food and beer, awful prices.

If it was a great day I would say it. It wasn't.

wayne wrote:
Chunky, sorry to offend, but I have to agree with both Fly and Munchkin on this, if you think the Irish or ANY of the participating countries want weak teams from any of the other countries in our League you are sadly mistaken, why do you think the Dragons have the vast majority of Sunday games since our League was introduced?  

Not neccesarily "weak" teams. But the Irish want to maintain the status quo. The relative strength they have over the rest.

Lets make no bones about this - the Irish have a brilliant rugby model (FOR THEM). They have worked hard at it, and deserve the success they've had and the money they've brought in. But the pro12 as it stands completely favours them. And other sides are at a disadvantage. I do not see a day where they would want to change this.

Chunky, make a list of how exactly it favours us. Provide examples, provide evidence and provide solutions.

Munchkin wrote:Chunky, make a list of how exactly it favours us. Provide examples, provide evidence and provide solutions.

Done it. Loads. About 20 times. finals venue, TMOs, kick off times, referees. Not going there again or it will be a ban for me.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Chunky, make a list of how exactly it favours us. Provide examples, provide evidence and provide solutions.

Done it. Loads. About 20 times. finals venue, TMOs, kick off times, referees. Not going there again or it will be a ban for me.

Tell that to a Connacht fan.

No you haven't Chunky, and you know you haven't.

- All sides can have equal negative experiences of TMO's getting it wrong.

- Final venue relies mainly on criteria that existed prior to this seasons change. Wait and see what happens next season.

- Broadcaster determine kick off times. Those teams that have the brunt of Sunday home games, not scarlets and not Ospreys, are either content with the present arrangement or forced into the present arrangement by S4C and the welsh negotiators.
If you have a real solution based on what is actually possible then lets hear it...

- All leagues complain about the level of refereeing. Including AP/T14/S15 and of course Pro12. The Pro12 officiating does in no sense favour the Irish. That is something you are making up. You want to dispute this then provide the evidence, and evidence that demonstrates comparisons with all nations involved.

I doubt you will get banned if you can reasonably engage in debate, and actually attempt to support any claim you make with factual evidence.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Chunky, make a list of how exactly it favours us. Provide examples, provide evidence and provide solutions.

Done it. Loads. About 20 times. finals venue, TMOs, kick off times, referees. Not going there again or it will be a ban for me.

That's not doing it.  

That's talking about a negotiation that involved talkative and argumentative Welsh reps.  You forget we already have evidence of just how argumentative you all are over there when observing the Great Regional Wars last year.  You can't pull off the idea that you're all little timid folk that cry when shouted at and do what you're all told like good little boys.

So No - you haven't explained a damn thing about just how it is that IRFU RUN Pro12 in its own image, unchallenged by the spikey, opinionated, argumentative and talkative Welsh.

Explain how it works that IRFU are responsible for all the things that aren't right about Pro12 when they're only 1/4 of the Totality?

You mention Lewis a lot when you get most angry.  
Is he Irish?  
Was he a member of IRFU?  

You have infighting between yourselves (even recently when a Welsh club was saying it felt used by a particular Region - a supporter of that club was absolutely lambasted by the regional boys here.)  Is the IRFU responsible for all that in-fighting that Still goes on and on and on even after a supposed peace deal?

You've explained nothing.  Explain how it works that we cause it all.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Chunky, make a list of how exactly it favours us. Provide examples, provide evidence and provide solutions.

Done it. Loads. About 20 times. finals venue, TMOs, kick off times, referees. Not going there again or it will be a ban for me.

Sorry about this MUNSTER, this is not a dig at you, as overall you were the better team, and deserved to win. Chunky how did you feel about the standard of refereeing of the scrums in our game last weekend, for a start, how about the scrum just before half time, after which Keatley made his break which ended with Zebo touching down, and that and probably every other scrum that Owens got wrong. I've said it before and will carry on saying it endlessly to people like you, it is NOT just Irish referees in the NH that are poor, there are only about 3 decent Referees in the NH that are any good, I gave you a good example when you went on that crusade a few months back, with the English trio involved in the Ospreys Racing Metro at the Liberty RCC game, have you actually seen some of the decisions Derek Bevan has got wrong in Guinness League games this season, and it has been explained endlessly to you, kick off times and days are determined by the TV companies and you still come back on them.

wayne wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:Per the Kerdiff stats, attendances have grown in three of the four countries involved in the PRO12, even the most anti-PRO12/Regions poster would admit that, for example, the Welsh Double Header this year was a great success.

I have heard mixed reviews from people who attended the 'Judgement Day' double header game this year.  Some people said how it was a great party atmosphere (these are generally people who attend mainly international games), but others have said that they were constantly standing up and down to let people go get beer, and dodging paper aeroplanes that were being thrown around, even thrown on the pitch (these were generally people who attend regional/club/village games regularly).  So it will be interesting to see how this translates to attendances next year.  Fingers crossed the attendances will be up with more of the non-regular regional watchers turning up (but sadly probably less regional regulars).

SS, obviously from your post you weren't there, I for one was and IMO it was an excellent day out, as have been the 2 previous JDs, and in the vicinity I was sitting there were very many Regional supporters of all the teams, this was on the lower tier quite close to one of the 10 metre lines, and to say with any degree of certainty where the paper aeroplanes were thrown from is disingenuous, as where we were sitting the aeroplanes were coming in different directions on both sides of the pitch

Your right I wasn't there. But like I said I've heard both rave and bum reviews. And of the rave reviews about 75:25 split of international:regional watchers, and of the bum reviews vice versa.

I couldn't say where the planes where coming from etc, but I can say that people who grumbled about the day were miffed about them.

wayne wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Chunky, make a list of how exactly it favours us. Provide examples, provide evidence and provide solutions.

Done it. Loads. About 20 times. finals venue, TMOs, kick off times, referees. Not going there again or it will be a ban for me.

Sorry about this MUNSTER, this is not a dig at you, as overall you were the better team, and deserved to win. Chunky how did you feel about the standard of refereeing of the scrums in our game last weekend, for a start, how about the scrum just before half time, after which Keatley made his break which ended with Zebo touching down, and that and probably every other scrum that Owens got wrong. I've said it before and will carry on saying it endlessly to people like you, it is NOT just Irish referees in the NH that are poor, there are only about 3 decent Referees in the NH that are any good, I gave you a good example when you went on that crusade a few months back, with the English trio involved in the Ospreys Racing Metro at the Liberty RCC game, have you actually seen some of the decisions Derek Bevan has got wrong in Guinness League games this season, and it has been explained endlessly to you, kick off times and days are determined by the TV companies and you still come back on them.      

I'll ask you one thing:

Did you see the official Munster twitter account when it was revealed that Owens was to referee them? They were delighted, and actually used the hashtag #HomeRun

They love him. Mainly because he hasn't got a clue how to referee breakdowns or the scrum. Which are the areas where Munster traditionally cheat.

So they were playing the ref. That's a universal thing, Chunky.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

wayne wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Chunky, make a list of how exactly it favours us. Provide examples, provide evidence and provide solutions.

Done it. Loads. About 20 times. finals venue, TMOs, kick off times, referees. Not going there again or it will be a ban for me.

Sorry about this MUNSTER, this is not a dig at you, as overall you were the better team, and deserved to win. Chunky how did you feel about the standard of refereeing of the scrums in our game last weekend, for a start, how about the scrum just before half time, after which Keatley made his break which ended with Zebo touching down, and that and probably every other scrum that Owens got wrong. I've said it before and will carry on saying it endlessly to people like you, it is NOT just Irish referees in the NH that are poor, there are only about 3 decent Referees in the NH that are any good, I gave you a good example when you went on that crusade a few months back, with the English trio involved in the Ospreys Racing Metro at the Liberty RCC game, have you actually seen some of the decisions Derek Bevan has got wrong in Guinness League games this season, and it has been explained endlessly to you, kick off times and days are determined by the TV companies and you still come back on them.      

I'll ask you one thing:

Did you see the official Munster twitter account when it was revealed that Owens was to referee them? They were delighted, and actually used the hashtag #HomeRun

They love him. Mainly because he hasn't got a clue how to referee breakdowns or the scrum. Which are the areas where Munster traditionally cheat.

So it's NOT just Irish Referees as you kept saying a few months back, just for your information there are many on our forum who prescribe to the same views as you about O'Owens they believe he is just biased whereas I just think he is useless at scrum time.

wayne wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

wayne wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Chunky, make a list of how exactly it favours us. Provide examples, provide evidence and provide solutions.

Done it. Loads. About 20 times. finals venue, TMOs, kick off times, referees. Not going there again or it will be a ban for me.

Sorry about this MUNSTER, this is not a dig at you, as overall you were the better team, and deserved to win. Chunky how did you feel about the standard of refereeing of the scrums in our game last weekend, for a start, how about the scrum just before half time, after which Keatley made his break which ended with Zebo touching down, and that and probably every other scrum that Owens got wrong. I've said it before and will carry on saying it endlessly to people like you, it is NOT just Irish referees in the NH that are poor, there are only about 3 decent Referees in the NH that are any good, I gave you a good example when you went on that crusade a few months back, with the English trio involved in the Ospreys Racing Metro at the Liberty RCC game, have you actually seen some of the decisions Derek Bevan has got wrong in Guinness League games this season, and it has been explained endlessly to you, kick off times and days are determined by the TV companies and you still come back on them.      

I'll ask you one thing:

Did you see the official Munster twitter account when it was revealed that Owens was to referee them? They were delighted, and actually used the hashtag #HomeRun

They love him. Mainly because he hasn't got a clue how to referee breakdowns or the scrum. Which are the areas where Munster traditionally cheat.

So it's NOT just Irish Referees as you kept saying a few months back, just for your information there are many on our forum who prescribe to the same views as you about O'Owens they believe he is just biased whereas I just think he is useless at scrum time.

I think Owens is incompetent at scrum time. I think there are Irish officials that are biased.

Chunky, you're a hoot. When Irish refs get it wrong they are biased. When any other ref gets it wrong they are incompetent    

Do you never examine your own bias/prejudice?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

wayne wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

wayne wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Chunky, make a list of how exactly it favours us. Provide examples, provide evidence and provide solutions.

Done it. Loads. About 20 times. finals venue, TMOs, kick off times, referees. Not going there again or it will be a ban for me.

Sorry about this MUNSTER, this is not a dig at you, as overall you were the better team, and deserved to win. Chunky how did you feel about the standard of refereeing of the scrums in our game last weekend, for a start, how about the scrum just before half time, after which Keatley made his break which ended with Zebo touching down, and that and probably every other scrum that Owens got wrong. I've said it before and will carry on saying it endlessly to people like you, it is NOT just Irish referees in the NH that are poor, there are only about 3 decent Referees in the NH that are any good, I gave you a good example when you went on that crusade a few months back, with the English trio involved in the Ospreys Racing Metro at the Liberty RCC game, have you actually seen some of the decisions Derek Bevan has got wrong in Guinness League games this season, and it has been explained endlessly to you, kick off times and days are determined by the TV companies and you still come back on them.      

I'll ask you one thing:

Did you see the official Munster twitter account when it was revealed that Owens was to referee them? They were delighted, and actually used the hashtag #HomeRun

They love him. Mainly because he hasn't got a clue how to referee breakdowns or the scrum. Which are the areas where Munster traditionally cheat.

So it's NOT just Irish Referees as you kept saying a few months back, just for your information there are many on our forum who prescribe to the same views as you about O'Owens they believe he is just biased whereas I just think he is useless at scrum time.

I think Owens is incompetent at scrum time. I think there are Irish officials that are biased.

I'm very pleased to note that you agree with my post, apart from the referees, as you didn't mention times and days of matches which is all down to TV companies and the incompetence of TMO's like Bevan, you can add in people like Hodges and Ian Davies as well.

Munchkin wrote:Chunky, you're a hoot. When Irish refs get it wrong they are biased. When any other ref gets it wrong they are incompetent    

Do you never examine your own bias/prejudice?

Munchkin, you do know he is a Turk?

wayne wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Chunky, you're a hoot. When Irish refs get it wrong they are biased. When any other ref gets it wrong they are incompetent    

Do you never examine your own bias/prejudice?

Munchkin, you do know he is a Turk?

A lesson on dishonesty from a Jack, now that's rich

Oh I know, wayne. I can be as one-eyed as a one-eyed Turk at times, but as much as I enjoy picking through a good conspiracy theory, I rarely give them credence and I never accept them as fact. Unless I have proof. I know the illuminati rule the world. This is fact as Dan Brown sets out in his shocking expose 'The Davinci Code'.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

wayne wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Chunky, you're a hoot. When Irish refs get it wrong they are biased. When any other ref gets it wrong they are incompetent    

Do you never examine your own bias/prejudice?

Munchkin, you do know he is a Turk?

A lesson on dishonesty from a Jack, now that's rich

I'm NO Jack, I'm from an amalgamation of 2 clubs originally, with 2 others since joined not a stand alone Turk

Munchkin, is it still a conspiracy theory if there are facts open for all to see?

wayne wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

wayne wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Chunky, you're a hoot. When Irish refs get it wrong they are biased. When any other ref gets it wrong they are incompetent    

Do you never examine your own bias/prejudice?

Munchkin, you do know he is a Turk?

A lesson on dishonesty from a Jack, now that's rich

I'm NO Jack, I'm from an amalgamation of 2 clubs originally, with 2 others since joined not a stand alone Turk

Meh, their based in Swansea though. So a Jack by association then?

Wayne, I ruled you out from being Neath cod you say more than Neef Neef Neef.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Munchkin, is it still a conspiracy theory if there are facts open for all to see?

Facts are funny things, Scarlets. A truth can be a series of facts joined together, in proper order and viewed within the correct context. Good lies are based on facts, but not complete, not ordered or not viewed within the correct context. Just as some of the great conspiracy theories.

Honesty isn't showing the facts alone. It's showing all the facts in proper order, and within the correct context.

Sorry, Scarlets. That's a bit waffly. In short - it depends, if all relevant facts are available, and presented within proper context, then no. It's not a conspiracy theory. It's truth.

At times like these, to clear my head, I just steal an 18 wheeler and cruise down the sunset highways of Los Santos - causing mayhem as I go, relaxing to old Waylon.

Relax people, we all love each other really ..... except cops and little old ladies in hatchbacks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUdtE0foQug

Is this still going on? From a scots fan point of view its the irish that have made the pro 12 work best. good on them. Its up to the rest of us to try to emulate them. Nothing is unfair or weighted in one nations favour., Its a good honest fair league.

Don't whinge about coming second - improve to come first. Thats what Glasgow (are trying to ) do

TJ wrote:Is this still going on?  From a scots fan point of view its the irish that have made the pro 12 work best.  good on them.  Its up to the rest of us to try to emulate them.  Nothing is unfair or weighted in one nations favour.,  Its a good honest fair league.

Don't whinge about coming second - improve to come first.  Thats what Glasgow (are trying to ) do

That good old Irish bias coming to the fore again today as Munster with the referees assistance stuff the Weegies - oh that's right they didn't!

I've only now had a chance to read this thread and the original post.

The OP didn't offer any opinion on a link that he posted beyond saying it was an interesting read.

I read it.  It was an interesting read.   Interesting in its premise and in its subsequent analysis based on that premise.

The premise of the article is based on an interview with the "most powerful man in British rugby" Pro12 CEO, John Feehan, conducted by Wales Online journalist, Simon Thomas.    The interview is a standard Q&A format that WO likes to use.  

The Cardiff fan (Tom BB) article has an opening line that reads:
A recent interview with Pro12 head John Feehan, made a number of claims relating to the Pro12. We take a look at one of them, namely that “significantly more people attended the matches this season than last season”.  From that, the author proceeded to examine stats of attendances, acknowledging that Scottish and Irish were up, but that Italian ones were down, and in particular, Welsh ones, were not up across the board.   The metric used each time for assessing each region was:

"So is this significantly more than last season?"
"So have “significantly more people attended … matches this season”? Absolutely not. This season was not far short of disastrous for the Scarlets.
"So is this significantly more than last season? 6% is a fair rise.."
"So is this significantly more than last season? "

The author was of the view that Mr Feehan needs to look outside of Ireland to make a proper assessment of the game, citing the flat performance of Wales, and the decline in Italy. He took Mr Feehan to task because of the phrase he used in the interview that "significantly more people attended the matches this season than last season."

So I decided to read the original article to see how and where this sentence came up.   It came up in response to the following question from Simon Thomas:

Q: How big a part has bringing Guinness and Sky on board played in that move forward (the Pro12 taking a significant step forward this season)?

A:  What we’ve looked to do is add layers of credibility to the competition.   It’s very important that it’s seen as top class and a thing to be involved in. Part of that is making sure we have top tier sponsors and top tier broadcasters.   That’s no disrespect to anybody that’s already involved because our regional broadcasters are absolutely superb and do a fantastic job.

But in an overall sense it’s just added layers all over the place. Even the disciplinary process has improved. There’s a whole heap of different things.  

It’s just step by step by step we have improved pretty much every aspect of what we do this year. That will all add up and we will improve again next year, I have no doubt at all. The proof is in the pudding.

Significantly more people attended the matches this season than last season. You saw it in Wales with the Judgement Day games.   That’s a good platform to build on for next year. We still have plenty of work to do, but this year has been an outstanding success in many ways and we just build on this going forward."  

Now, it might be just me, but reading that transcript of the interview with Feehan, the editor in me wonders if the WO journalist just didn't know his grammar, and left out a comma after the word: "significantly".  Feehan was being asked a specific question by the interviewer about the improvement of the Pro12 this season against the previous season.

The qoute used by the Cardiff fan is not plucked from within a sentence but stands alone as a statement in support of what Feehad said previously: "That will all add up and we will improve again next year, I have no doubt at all. The proof is in the pudding."

I would take Mr Feehan to task if he did actually say the "proof is in the pudding" because it's incorrect, .  The "proof of the pudding is in the eating" is the correct phrase. In other words, changes may have been made to the league, making it more competitive, etc., but whilst that may look good, until it's been tried/experienced, you don't know what it's going to be like or how it's going to be received by sponsors and fans.  Thus:

Significantly, (meaning importantly), more people attended the matches this season than last season.   In other words, attendances have gone up in the Pro12 this season overall, following the changes made.   And that's a good platform to build on, but there's more work to be done... etc, etc.

In conclusion, the Cardiff author may have been too quick to disprove what he thought was Mr Feehan's assertion that Pro12 attendances had improved significantly.    When, in fact, Mr Feehan was pointing out that attendances had increased on last year, after changes made to the league, and that was important in the overall assessment of whether the changes had been worthwhile and helped to improve the Pro12.  

The Cardiff fan's assessment of the individual region's performance is fair, with a region such as the Dragons achieving a notable success in increasing their attendances overall, including having some of their home games on a Sunday - (6 or 7 if I recall from a previous discussion with Griff), even though they finished low on the table.  A great effort by the club in promoting the game with their fans, in contrast with the dwindling support at Scarlets, despite their higher placing and winning the 6th European spot.

Pot Hale wrote:I've only now had a chance to read this thread and the original post.

The OP didn't offer any opinion on a link that he posted beyond saying it was an interesting read.

I read it.  It was an interesting read.   Interesting in its premise and in its subsequent analysis based on that premise.

The premise of the article is based on an interview with the "most powerful man in British rugby" Pro12 CEO, John Feehan, conducted by Wales Online journalist, Simon Thomas.    The interview is a standard Q&A format that WO likes to use.  

The Cardiff fan (Tom BB) article has an opening line that reads:
A recent interview with Pro12 head John Feehan, made a number of claims relating to the Pro12. We take a look at one of them, namely that “significantly more people attended the matches this season than last season”.  From that, the author proceeded to examine stats of attendances, acknowledging that Scottish and Irish were up, but that Italian ones were down, and in particular, Welsh ones, were not up across the board.   The metric used each time for assessing each region was:

"So is this significantly more than last season?"
"So have “significantly more people attended … matches this season”? Absolutely not. This season was not far short of disastrous for the Scarlets.
"So is this significantly more than last season? 6% is a fair rise.."
"So is this significantly more than last season? "

The author was of the view that Mr Feehan needs to look outside of Ireland to make a proper assessment of the game, citing the flat performance of Wales, and the decline in Italy. He took Mr Feehan to task because of the phrase he used in the interview that "significantly more people attended the matches this season than last season."

So I decided to read the original article to see how and where this sentence came up.   It came up in response to the following question from Simon Thomas:

Q: How big a part has bringing Guinness and Sky on board played in that move forward (the Pro12 taking a significant step forward this season)?

A:  What we’ve looked to do is add layers of credibility to the competition.   It’s very important that it’s seen as top class and a thing to be involved in. Part of that is making sure we have top tier sponsors and top tier broadcasters.   That’s no disrespect to anybody that’s already involved because our regional broadcasters are absolutely superb and do a fantastic job.

But in an overall sense it’s just added layers all over the place. Even the disciplinary process has improved. There’s a whole heap of different things.  

It’s just step by step by step we have improved pretty much every aspect of what we do this year. That will all add up and we will improve again next year, I have no doubt at all. The proof is in the pudding.

Significantly more people attended the matches this season than last season. You saw it in Wales with the Judgement Day games.   That’s a good platform to build on for next year. We still have plenty of work to do, but this year has been an outstanding success in many ways and we just build on this going forward."  

Now, it might be just me, but reading that transcript of the interview with Feehan, the editor in me wonders if the WO journalist just didn't know his grammar, and left out a comma after the word: "significantly".  Feehan was being asked a specific question by the interviewer about the improvement of the Pro12 this season against the previous season.

The qoute used by the Cardiff fan is not plucked from within a sentence but stands alone as a statement in support of what Feehad said previously: "That will all add up and we will improve again next year, I have no doubt at all. The proof is in the pudding."

I would take Mr Feehan to task if he did actually say the "proof is in the pudding" because it's incorrect, .  The "proof of the pudding is in the eating" is the correct phrase. In other words, changes may have been made to the league, making it more competitive, etc., but whilst that may look good, until it's been tried/experienced, you don't know what it's going to be like or how it's going to be received by sponsors and fans.  Thus:

Significantly, (meaning importantly), more people attended the matches this season than last season.   In other words, attendances have gone up in the Pro12 this season overall, following the changes made.   And that's a good platform to build on, but there's more work to be done... etc, etc.

In conclusion, the Cardiff author may have been too quick to disprove what he thought was Mr Feehan's assertion that Pro12 attendances had improved significantly.    When, in fact, Mr Feehan was pointing out that attendances had increased on last year, after changes made to the league, and that was important in the overall assessment of whether the changes had been worthwhile and helped to improve the Pro12.  

The Cardiff fan's assessment of the individual region's performance is fair, with a region such as the Dragons achieving a notable success in increasing their attendances overall, including having some of their home games on a Sunday - (6 or 7 if I recall from a previous discussion with Griff), even though they finished low on the table.  A great effort by the club in promoting the game with their fans, in contrast with the dwindling support at Scarlets, despite their higher placing and winning the 6th European spot.

Good balanced, well thought out post. Thank you for taking the time to respond like an adult.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Good balanced, well thought out post. Thank you for taking the time to respond like an adult.

See that last sentence there highlighted in bold?

Was that really necessary to say?

Don't feed the troll