Pro12 Finals

First topic message reminder :

This year signalled a shift towards a neutral, predetermined venue for the "Grand Final". Belfast was a fantastic choice for this and was a wonderful venue however there are some calls to move the final to a larger stadium to create an atmosphere similar to that at Twickenham yesterday and therefore making it a bigger occasion. There are a number of issues with this, namely that it would mean the final would have to be held in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dublin or Cardiff every year but for argument's sake how do we look to fill out these larger venues?

Firstly it's worth remembering that (if we discount the Italians) we have a combined population of 10 million which is a sixth of the English, and this population is spread far less densely and with far more expensive and difficult transport links so it is logistically difficult. Also Twickenham is the home of rugby for english fans and therefore represents something close to a pilgrimage for English fans regardless of club allegiances, this is something you wouldn't get for a fan of the Dragons if the final was in Scotland or Ireland between clubs from Scotland or Ireland especially when you factor cost of transport and the fact that diehard rugby fans would have probably travelled long distances just a couple of months before for the Six Nations. Nevertheless giving the final to the top team is also difficult as it's hard to create a big occasion befitting of the league in just one week, so what it the solution?

The first step in my opinion would be to appeal to and, in many ways, reward the diehard fans. By that I mean give heavily subsidised tickets to the season ticket holders regardless of club and maybe organise travel from major population bases so Dublin, Belfast, Edinbugh, Glasgow and Dublin. That way you get a crowd with large numbers of real rugby fans who enjoy each others company. Of course you want to make sure the finalists have large numbers of fans there so it's a bit more partisan so maybe holding back 20,000 tickets until the play-offs and then give 2,500 tickets each to the semi-finalists and then after the semis give 5,000 each to the finalists to be sold at their own price and also divide up any remaining tickets. Anything they lose from cheap tickets they'll gain in the long run through a bigger spectacle and more sponsorship as a result.

Second step would be to make it more relevant to fans of every club so either a sevens tournament of sorts in the morning between the teams or perhaps more effectively some form of exhibition or charity game. Either between two "best of the rest" Pro12 XVs, or Pro12 XV against the Barbarians or two teams chosen by outgoing Pro12 legends in a kind of testimonial match.

Finally I'd try to make more of a spectacle of the event, you can say what you like about the SRU but they do put on a good show before matches. Say it was in Glasgow then there are a lot of local comedians and musicians who make a big deal about their allegiance to the city guys like Kevin Bridges and Amy Macdonald so get them involved have fireworks and really build up an atmosphere for the final.

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Oh well, even more controversy, it looks as though the Irish FA took a bribe not to take FIFA to court over the Thierry Henry hand ball, and they used the money towards building their beloved AVIVA stadium, oh well we can always hold the final in the bribery stadium in Dublin.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33011692

So you think out of court settlements are bribes? I suppose you can spin it that way if you had an agenda against the Irish.

I suppose the fact that the deal was a loan that was written off, was legal, and was recorded in the books, is something that you like to ignore because it doesn't fit the narrative of 'evil Irish'. It is simply compensation that FAI would likely have received if they had have taken it all the way to court.

Another fact is that the FIA has long been opposed to Blatter. They voted against his election. It's no secret that they didn't like each other.

Not that I care a jot about football, and not that many didn't strongly suspect FIFA was rife with corruption anyway.

There is  alot of corruption in Ireland though. I'm not saying everything is corrupt, but for instance, I think I'm right in saying that the man who privately funded Jonny Sexton's move from Racing back to Leinster ahs just had an injunction approved that stops the media reporting on anthing that the Irish government discuss about him. I wonder why that would be?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Oh well, even more controversy, it looks as though the Irish FA took a bribe not to take FIFA to court over the Thierry Henry hand ball, and they used the money towards building their beloved AVIVA stadium, oh well we can always hold the final in the bribery stadium in Dublin.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33011692

So you think out of court settlements are bribes? I suppose you can spin it that way if you had an agenda against the Irish.

I suppose the fact that the deal was a loan that was written off, was legal, and was recorded in the books, is something that you like to ignore because it doesn't fit the narrative of 'evil Irish'. It is simply compensation that FAI would likely have received if they had have taken it all the way to court.

Another fact is that the FIA has long been opposed to Blatter. They voted against his election. It's no secret that they didn't like each other.

Not that I care a jot about football, and not that many didn't strongly suspect FIFA was rife with corruption anyway.

There is  alot of corruption in Ireland though. I'm not saying everything is corrupt, but for instance, I think I'm right in saying that the man who privately funded Jonny Sexton's move from Racing back to Leinster ahs just had an injunction approved that stops the media reporting on anthing that the Irish government discuss about him. I wonder why that would be?

A lot of corruption? Really? Can you back that statement up with facts, or is this another load of unsubstantiated hogwash?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Oh well, even more controversy, it looks as though the Irish FA took a bribe not to take FIFA to court over the Thierry Henry hand ball, and they used the money towards building their beloved AVIVA stadium, oh well we can always hold the final in the bribery stadium in Dublin.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33011692

So you think out of court settlements are bribes? I suppose you can spin it that way if you had an agenda against the Irish.

I suppose the fact that the deal was a loan that was written off, was legal, and was recorded in the books, is something that you like to ignore because it doesn't fit the narrative of 'evil Irish'. It is simply compensation that FAI would likely have received if they had have taken it all the way to court.

Another fact is that the FIA has long been opposed to Blatter. They voted against his election. It's no secret that they didn't like each other.

Not that I care a jot about football, and not that many didn't strongly suspect FIFA was rife with corruption anyway.

There is  alot of corruption in Ireland though. I'm not saying everything is corrupt, but for instance, I think I'm right in saying that the man who privately funded Jonny Sexton's move from Racing back to Leinster ahs just had an injunction approved that stops the media reporting on anthing that the Irish government discuss about him. I wonder why that would be?

I don't know why that would be. What has that got to do with sport in Ireland, and how does it demonstrate that sport in Ireland is corrupt?

That particular individual is well known for taking those who say nasty things about him to court.

I suppose it's a bit like Nigel Wray uses the threat of legal action to get his way.

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Oh well, even more controversy, it looks as though the Irish FA took a bribe not to take FIFA to court over the Thierry Henry hand ball, and they used the money towards building their beloved AVIVA stadium, oh well we can always hold the final in the bribery stadium in Dublin.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33011692

So you think out of court settlements are bribes? I suppose you can spin it that way if you had an agenda against the Irish.

I suppose the fact that the deal was a loan that was written off, was legal, and was recorded in the books, is something that you like to ignore because it doesn't fit the narrative of 'evil Irish'. It is simply compensation that FAI would likely have received if they had have taken it all the way to court.

Another fact is that the FIA has long been opposed to Blatter. They voted against his election. It's no secret that they didn't like each other.

Not that I care a jot about football, and not that many didn't strongly suspect FIFA was rife with corruption anyway.

There is  alot of corruption in Ireland though. I'm not saying everything is corrupt, but for instance, I think I'm right in saying that the man who privately funded Jonny Sexton's move from Racing back to Leinster ahs just had an injunction approved that stops the media reporting on anthing that the Irish government discuss about him. I wonder why that would be?

I don't know why that would be. What has that got to do with sport in Ireland, and how does it demonstrate that sport in Ireland is corrupt?

That particular individual is well known for taking those who say nasty things about him to court.

I suppose it's a bit like Nigel Wray uses the threat of legal action to get his way.

It's an observation from an outsider. The situation doesn't sit well. I know you will defend all things Irish, but can you imagine how this looks? Bringing this money into the game just doesn't reflect well.

The situation is totally incomparable with Nigel Wray.

Don't know why people think Chunky is a wum with statements like that.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Don't know why people think Chunky is a wum with statements like that.

Is he lying though ?

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Don't know why people think Chunky is a wum with statements like that.

Is he lying though ?

They just do not want to hear it , do they?

The funniest thing is, they hark on about Toulon's extra salary cap incentives for players like Wilkinson, when Irish rugby does exactly the same thing, albeit with no salary cap.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Oh well, even more controversy, it looks as though the Irish FA took a bribe not to take FIFA to court over the Thierry Henry hand ball, and they used the money towards building their beloved AVIVA stadium, oh well we can always hold the final in the bribery stadium in Dublin.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33011692

So you think out of court settlements are bribes? I suppose you can spin it that way if you had an agenda against the Irish.

I suppose the fact that the deal was a loan that was written off, was legal, and was recorded in the books, is something that you like to ignore because it doesn't fit the narrative of 'evil Irish'. It is simply compensation that FAI would likely have received if they had have taken it all the way to court.

Another fact is that the FIA has long been opposed to Blatter. They voted against his election. It's no secret that they didn't like each other.

Not that I care a jot about football, and not that many didn't strongly suspect FIFA was rife with corruption anyway.

There is  alot of corruption in Ireland though. I'm not saying everything is corrupt, but for instance, I think I'm right in saying that the man who privately funded Jonny Sexton's move from Racing back to Leinster ahs just had an injunction approved that stops the media reporting on anthing that the Irish government discuss about him. I wonder why that would be?

I don't know why that would be. What has that got to do with sport in Ireland, and how does it demonstrate that sport in Ireland is corrupt?

That particular individual is well known for taking those who say nasty things about him to court.

I suppose it's a bit like Nigel Wray uses the threat of legal action to get his way.

It's an observation from an outsider. The situation doesn't sit well. I know you will defend all things Irish, but can you imagine how this looks? Bringing this money into the game just doesn't reflect well.

The situation is totally incomparable with Nigel Wray.

No it isn't. Business men use the law against their rivals shocker  Business men use the law to protect their reputations shocker  Even if those reputations are questionable.

So it's just an observation of yours that there's a lot of corruption in Ireland? Well if you've observed it then you can back your claim up. Back it up.

I think Wales is full of corruption myself.No doubt a lot of dodgy dealings in your rugby circles. Let's face it, the Millennium stadium being guaranteed to host certain games is an act of corruption. You might wish to ignore this truth, but then I wouldn't expect anything less from someone like you who would like to defend all things Welsh, and attack all things Irish. It's just who you are.

Edit: Just in case anyone thinks I really believe Wales is full of corruption, I don't at all. I can think of no instances of corruption, and hold the Welsh in high regard. One or two individuals excepted. I am just mirroring Chunky's claim in order to show how ridiculous it is.

Fair enough LD. There's a lot of cheats in Wales. They played a load of foreigners in 1999 to deny an English grandslam. Ryan Giggs continues to show this even launching a super injunction to stop people talking about him.

I'm not lying am I? I certianly think this comment is out of order though and I wrote it.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Don't know why people think Chunky is a wum with statements like that.

Is he lying though ?

Yes, he is. Ask him to back it up.

Munchkin wrote:


No it isn't. Business men use the law against their rivals shocker  Business men use the law to protect their reputations shocker  Even if those reputations are questionable.

So it's just an observation of yours that there's a lot of corruption in Ireland? Well if you've observed it then you can back your claim up. Back it up.

I think Wales is full of corruption myself. I mean, even your police are corrupt to the core. No doubt a lot of dodgy dealings in your rugby circles. Let's face it, the Millennium stadium being guaranteed to host certain games is an act of corruption. You might wish to ignore this truth, but then I wouldn't expect anything less from someone like you who would like to defend all things Welsh, and attack all things Irish. It's just who you are.

I seem to have hit a nerve. I justified my comemnt above with the example.

I also wouldn't dream of defending all things Welsh, which is a bizarre comment given my posting history.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:


No it isn't. Business men use the law against their rivals shocker  Business men use the law to protect their reputations shocker  Even if those reputations are questionable.

So it's just an observation of yours that there's a lot of corruption in Ireland? Well if you've observed it then you can back your claim up. Back it up.

I think Wales is full of corruption myself. I mean, even your police are corrupt to the core. No doubt a lot of dodgy dealings in your rugby circles. Let's face it, the Millennium stadium being guaranteed to host certain games is an act of corruption. You might wish to ignore this truth, but then I wouldn't expect anything less from someone like you who would like to defend all things Welsh, and attack all things Irish. It's just who you are.

I seem to have hit a nerve. I justified my comemnt above with the example.

I also wouldn't dream of defending all things Welsh, which is a bizarre comment given my posting history.

You justified nothing. All you've done is confirm your xenophobic zeal by linking the legal dealings of a business man with Sexton, and adding you little spin on it which proves absolutely nothing.

No, you haven't hit a nerve. I sometimes enjoy showing bigots for what they are

Munchkin wrote:

You justified nothing. All you've done is confirm your xenophobic zeal by linking the legal dealings of a business man with Sexton, and adding you little spin on it which proves absolutely nothing.

Do you think this deserves to be discussed?

What exactly deserves to be discussed?

Munchkin wrote:What exactly deserves to be discussed?

The private funding of individuals in Irish rugby by a person who is coming under increased scrutiny for his business dealings?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:What exactly deserves to be discussed?

The private funding of individuals in Irish rugby by a person who is coming under increased scrutiny for his business dealings?

Ha! Your little index proves what exactly? Not surprised that you rip something out of context, post it in isolation and add your spin....

Have a look it this:

2014

The 20 top countries that were ranked as having the lowest perceived levels of corruption were:
# Country Score    #   Country Score
1 Denmark 92 11          Australia 80
2 New Zealand 91    12  Germany 79
3 Finland 89                 Iceland    79
4 Sweden 87           14 United Kingdom 78
5 Norway 86 15         Belgium 76
 Switzerland Japan
7 Singapore 84           17 Barbados 74
8 Netherlands            Hong Kong  74
9 Luxembourg          Ireland       74
10 Canada

Where is Ireland placed, and on how many points? Where is UK placed and on how many points?

Now bearing in mind that 100 is very clean, 74 and 78 is close, could be better, but still not bad. Out of 177 countries, Uk and Ireland sit at 14th and 17th respectively. You fail

No I don't think it should be discussed as it's not relevant to the thread, and, as expected, you make wild accusations you can't back up.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Oh well, even more controversy, it looks as though the Irish FA took a bribe not to take FIFA to court over the Thierry Henry hand ball, and they used the money towards building their beloved AVIVA stadium, oh well we can always hold the final in the bribery stadium in Dublin.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33011692

So you think out of court settlements are bribes? I suppose you can spin it that way if you had an agenda against the Irish.

I suppose the fact that the deal was a loan that was written off, was legal, and was recorded in the books, is something that you like to ignore because it doesn't fit the narrative of 'evil Irish'. It is simply compensation that FAI would likely have received if they had have taken it all the way to court.

Another fact is that the FIA has long been opposed to Blatter. They voted against his election. It's no secret that they didn't like each other.

Not that I care a jot about football, and not that many didn't strongly suspect FIFA was rife with corruption anyway.

There is  alot of corruption in Ireland though. I'm not saying everything is corrupt, but for instance, I think I'm right in saying that the man who privately funded Jonny Sexton's move from Racing back to Leinster ahs just had an injunction approved that stops the media reporting on anthing that the Irish government discuss about him. I wonder why that would be?

I don't know why that would be. What has that got to do with sport in Ireland, and how does it demonstrate that sport in Ireland is corrupt?

That particular individual is well known for taking those who say nasty things about him to court.

I suppose it's a bit like Nigel Wray uses the threat of legal action to get his way.

It's an observation from an outsider. The situation doesn't sit well. I know you will defend all things Irish, but can you imagine how this looks? Bringing this money into the game just doesn't reflect well.

The situation is totally incomparable with Nigel Wray.

Denis O'Brien took an injunction out to prevent what he deems to be private personal financial information from being reported. The Judge has clarified what he meant, and he didn't mean to restrict the privilege of being able to say what they want in the Dail/Parliament.

The problem with O'Brien is he is too powerful (he controls too much of the media here), but in fairness to him, he pays the salary of the Irish Football management (Martin O'Neill & Roy Keane) but he has no control over who is selected. I doubt if he would try telling either Martin O'Neill or Roy to do anything.

As for Sexton - he is apparently going to be an ambasador for one of O'Brien's companies here (Topaz petrol stations).

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:What exactly deserves to be discussed?

The private funding of individuals in Irish rugby by a person who is coming under increased scrutiny for his business dealings?

Ha! Your little index proves what exactly? Not surprised that you rip something out of context, post it in isolation and add your spin....

Have a look it this:

2014

The 20 top countries that were ranked as having the lowest perceived levels of corruption were:
# Country Score    #   Country Score
1 Denmark 92 11          Australia 80
2 New Zealand 91    12  Germany 79
3 Finland 89                 Iceland    79
4 Sweden 87           14 United Kingdom 78
5 Norway 86 15         Belgium 76
 Switzerland Japan
7 Singapore 84           17 Barbados 74
8 Netherlands            Hong Kong  74
9 Luxembourg          Ireland       74
10 Canada

Where is Ireland placed, and on how many points? Where is UK placed and on how many points?

Now bearing in mind that 100 is very clean, 74 and 78 is close, could be better, but still not bad. Out of 177 countries, Uk and Ireland sit at 14th and 17th respectively. You fail

No I don't think it should be discussed as it's not relevant to the thread, and, as expected, you make wild accusations you can't back up.

So your figures show that Ireland is actually 'perceived' to be more corrupt than the UK

Well, thankfully Ulster are 4% less corrupt than the other provinces. Take heed of our moral compass, lads.

Not my figures

Perception eh? Not sure how much I would trust this perception league. Give my hard facts on crime in each country, rather than this little index.

Anyway, you're right. The perception of corruption is marginally higher in Ireland than in the UK. And now what?

Munchkin wrote:Not my figures

Perception eh? Not sure how much I would trust this perception league. Give my hard facts on crime in each country, rather than this little index.

Anyway, you're right. The perception of corruption is marginally higher in Ireland than in the UK. And now what?

The 'perceived' corruption table is corrupted.

AS for what now, I think 'technically' the argument just continues.

Don Alfonso wrote:Well, thankfully Ulster are 4% less corrupt than the other provinces. Take heed of our moral compass, lads.

I was just thinking that N.Ireland helps keep that UK perception stats down due to our lower level of crime

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:Not my figures

Perception eh? Not sure how much I would trust this perception league. Give my hard facts on crime in each country, rather than this little index.

Anyway, you're right. The perception of corruption is marginally higher in Ireland than in the UK. And now what?

The 'perceived' corruption table is corrupted.

AS for what now, I think 'technically' the argument just continues.

Not for me. I think it was a very poor attempt by Chunky to project this 'evil Irish' thing. The perception index effort back-fired on him

Not much point in continuing with it.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

So your figures show that Ireland is actually 'perceived' to be more corrupt than the UK

Well, the Irish don't usually vote against themselves.  But of course neither do other folks (with big populations).  So people with big populations think we're more corrupt than they are?  Shocking.  

I voted for Wales when they asked me but it didn't make the list for some strange reason . I usually use my world underground contacts to multi-vote by the millions when these things come up so I was annoyed I wasted so much money.

Wales isn't a country, SecretFly. That's why it doesn't feature.

<I am just stirring, before anyone has a fit.>

Just an aside to this eejitry that I've witnessed when coming online to this thread about an hour ago.

2014 also saw Ireland claim the very First Best Country in the World title!

Based on data from a myriad of sources (UN, World Bank etc), the rankings highlight scores for a number of headings  -from financial to cultural - to construct the overall list.  So in other words, a non-perception FACT based analysis

And we got top!

Chunky voted us down on almost every heading but he didn't have enough votes bought to make his opinion register in all but one of them.  
He voted us actually up in the category of "Folks that's actually nice enough when you meet them in person" (proof of his opinion back on these pages from a few weeks back).  And that's what won us the overall title.  So thanks Chunks, we owe you.

http://www.goodcountry.org/overall

Munchkin, the deal with FIFA was rather shady, though tells us more about FIFA than FAI. However we still had a "loan" given to avoid having to go to court. This loan was to build a stadium - which FAI had no intention of ever doing.

However perfectly happy to accept your research that Ireland is only marginally more corrupt the UK.

Based on personal experience trying to set up a business in South Wales and Norfolk - the rest of the UK must be squeaky clean.

LondonTiger wrote:Munchkin, the deal with FIFA was rather shady, though tells us more about FIFA than FAI. However we still had a "loan" given to avoid having to go to court. This loan was to build a stadium - which FAI had no intention of ever doing.

However perfectly happy to accept your research that Ireland is only marginally more corrupt the UK.

Based on personal experience trying to set up a business in South Wales and Norfolk - the rest of the UK must be squeaky clean.

I haven't a clue if the deal was shady or not. I have no interest if football, and haven't followed the story. Nor do I wish too. To say it's shady I think you would need to back that up with evidence. FAI have given their explanation, and for me that explanation seems reasonable, without any suggestion of being shady. I'm not defending FAI. I'm just calling it as I see it.

It isn't my research that points to Ireland being only marginally more corrupt than the UK. That was Chunky's gem which lead me to do a quick Google search for the full article. You're wrong about the findings of that research by the way. It doesn't show that Ireland is marginally more corrupt than the UK. It finds that the perception of corruption in Ireland is marginally higher than that of the UK. Not that any of that really matters. It was a lame attempt by Chunky in the latest of his efforts to flame the threads as is usual for him. Aided and abetted with his partner in grime, LD.

A shady businessman pays for Jonny Sexton to get back to Ireland. That is worthy of discussion in my opinion. Some say not though.

I would starta new thread, but I'll only get accused of being anti-Iish.

Chunky Norwich wrote:I would starta new thread, but I'll only get accused of being anti-Iish.

Are you suggesting Irish people can't post on multiple threads?

Chunky Norwich wrote:A shady businessman pays for Jonny Sexton to get back to Ireland. That is worthy of discussion in my opinion. Some say not though.

It isn't so much that it may not be a discussion worth having, Chunky. It's more the motivation behind it that devalues it as a topic worth discussing. You have issue's Chunky, and you're incapable of objective discussion when it comes to rugby in Ireland. You're an out and out flamer.

Personally I don't care about your claims of a shady business man being connected with sexton. If others want to discuss it with you then fine. This isn't the thread for that discussion though. Start your own. I won't be part of it.

Munchkin wrote:

It isn't so much that it may not be a discussion worth having, Chunky. It's more the motivation behind it that devalues it as a topic worth discussing. You have issue's Chunky, and you're incapable of objective discussion when it comes to rugby in Ireland. You're an out and out flamer.

I dsagree. I have noticed a tend on here that sweeps certain topics under the carpet. I don't see this as fair/right and try to engage people in those topics, as I feel they should be presented to a wider audience as posisble. These topics include the mess that is Welsh rugby. Not just Irish rugby.

Personally I don't care about your claims of a shady business man being connected with sexton. .

And I would say that you and others are incapable of putting forwards impartial viewpoints regarding the subject matter, as the statement above suggests.

I agree with chunky.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

It isn't so much that it may not be a discussion worth having, Chunky. It's more the motivation behind it that devalues it as a topic worth discussing. You have issue's Chunky, and you're incapable of objective discussion when it comes to rugby in Ireland. You're an out and out flamer.

I dsagree. I have noticed a tend on here that sweeps certain topics under the carpet. I don't see this as fair/right and try to engage people in those topics, as I feel they should be presented to a wider audience as posisble. These topics include the mess that is Welsh rugby. Not just Irish rugby.

Personally I don't care about your claims of a shady business man being connected with sexton. .

And I would say that you and others are incapable of putting forwards impartial viewpoints regarding the subject matter, as the statement above suggests.

With all due respect, Chunky, you only, or mostly, discuss any problems within Welsh rugby with the intention of pointing the finger of blame at Irish rugby.

What get's swept under the carpet, Chunky? Most of the topics you present, we engage in. There isn't a sweeping under the carpet. There is disagreement with your take on things, and that's usually because you lack substance in your assertions. The criteria for the PRO12 final being a case in point.

For myself, I do try and be objective when considering the evidence. If the evidence is weak, or non existent, then I will reject it as conclusive evidence. Because I happen to disagree with you doesn't mean that I'm not impartial. It simply means that the strength, or lack of, of your argument has failed to convince me.

I'm more than willing to be corrected, Chunky. Show me clearly anywhere were you have presented clear evidence in support of any claim you have made, and of which I have rejected.

Munchkin wrote:

With all due respect, Chunky, you only, or mostly, discuss any problems within Welsh rugby with the intention of pointing the finger of blame at Irish rugby.

That's wholly inaccurate, the last 6 years of Welsh rugby has had internal wranglings that have failed pro domestic rugby - nothing to do with the Irish or anybody else.

What get's swept under the carpet, Chunky? Most of the topics you present, we engage in. There isn't a sweeping under the carpet. There is disagreement with your take on things, and that's usually because you lack substance in your assertions. The criteria for the PRO12 final being a case in point.

For myself, I do try and be objective when considering the evidence. If the evidence is weak, or non existent, then I will reject it as conclusive evidence. Because I happen to disagree with you, doesn't mean that I'm not impartial. It simply means that the strength, or lack of, of your argument has failed to convince me.

I'm more than willing to be corrected, Chunky. Show me clearly anywhere were you have presented clear evidence in support of any claim you have made, and of which I have rejected.

None of my accusations lack substance. I present the facts that are out there - and the assertions on the back of that are clear to see. Those that don't want to see them then ask me for evidence which only rugby administrators would posess. This is the standard get out clause on here.

It's like saying "The earth is flat, because I personally haven't been to outer space to check and see if it's round, so it's flat as far as I'm concerned."

Splitting it down into the 4 nations: The Welsh on here acknowledge their failings, so do the English and I'm sure the Scots. But I'm not convinced we hear anything but how amazing Irish rugby is from the Irish. I do perhaps focus on that sometimes, but only because I want to change it.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

With all due respect, Chunky, you only, or mostly, discuss any problems within Welsh rugby with the intention of pointing the finger of blame at Irish rugby.

That's wholly inaccurate, the last 6 years of Welsh rugby has had internal wranglings that have failed pro domestic rugby - nothing to do with the Irish or anybody else.

What get's swept under the carpet, Chunky? Most of the topics you present, we engage in. There isn't a sweeping under the carpet. There is disagreement with your take on things, and that's usually because you lack substance in your assertions. The criteria for the PRO12 final being a case in point.

For myself, I do try and be objective when considering the evidence. If the evidence is weak, or non existent, then I will reject it as conclusive evidence. Because I happen to disagree with you, doesn't mean that I'm not impartial. It simply means that the strength, or lack of, of your argument has failed to convince me.

I'm more than willing to be corrected, Chunky. Show me clearly anywhere were you have presented clear evidence in support of any claim you have made, and of which I have rejected.

None of my accusations lack substance. I present the facts that are out there - and the assertions on the back of that are clear to see. Those that don't want to see them then ask me for evidence which only rugby administrators would posess. This is the standard get out clause on here.

It's like saying "The earth is flat, because I personally haven't been to outer space to check and see if it's round, so it's flat as far as I'm concerned."

Splitting it down into the 4 nations: The Welsh on here acknowledge their failings, so do the English and I'm sure the Scots. But I'm not convinced we hear anything but how amazing Irish rugby is from the Irish. I do perhaps focus on that sometimes, but only because I want to change it.

It isn't inaccurate, Chunky. A quick view of the threads you start, and the conversations you engage in demonstrate as much:

- Hosting the PRO12 final.

- Irish officials

- TMO's

- Broadcasting revenue

- The PRO12 in general favouring the Provinces (although That's probably more LD, than you.

- Provinces player salaries. Ulster in particular.

"none of my accusations lack substance. I present the facts that are out there - and the assertions on the back of that are clear to see."

You say the above, Chunky, but when you're challenged on it you either run, or deflect. I have asked you to show any evidence were I have rejected clear evidence presented by you in support of your claims, and you haven't obliged. Chunky, asking for evidence to support assertions is more than reasonable. Don't switch the blame of your failure to present evidence on those asking for it.

We know the earth isn't flat because there's volumes of hard evidence, presented by peer reviewed experts, within the public domain that any of us can access. We don't need to travel to outer space to see it for ourselves.

Irish rugby has its faults, Chunky. It's not perfect. What I won't do is admit to claims of faults that are either baseless, or lacking in substance.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

With all due respect, Chunky, you only, or mostly, discuss any problems within Welsh rugby with the intention of pointing the finger of blame at Irish rugby.

That's wholly inaccurate, the last 6 years of Welsh rugby has had internal wranglings that have failed pro domestic rugby - nothing to do with the Irish or anybody else.

What get's swept under the carpet, Chunky? Most of the topics you present, we engage in. There isn't a sweeping under the carpet. There is disagreement with your take on things, and that's usually because you lack substance in your assertions. The criteria for the PRO12 final being a case in point.

For myself, I do try and be objective when considering the evidence. If the evidence is weak, or non existent, then I will reject it as conclusive evidence. Because I happen to disagree with you, doesn't mean that I'm not impartial. It simply means that the strength, or lack of, of your argument has failed to convince me.

I'm more than willing to be corrected, Chunky. Show me clearly anywhere were you have presented clear evidence in support of any claim you have made, and of which I have rejected.

None of my accusations lack substance. I present the facts that are out there - and the assertions on the back of that are clear to see. Those that don't want to see them then ask me for evidence which only rugby administrators would posess. This is the standard get out clause on here.

It's like saying "The earth is flat, because I personally haven't been to outer space to check and see if it's round, so it's flat as far as I'm concerned."

Splitting it down into the 4 nations: The Welsh on here acknowledge their failings, so do the English and I'm sure the Scots. But I'm not convinced we hear anything but how amazing Irish rugby is from the Irish. I do perhaps focus on that sometimes, but only because I want to change it.

So anybody who disagrees with you is wrong,no arguments,that's what you're saying?

Here's a hint Chunky; the more you attack what you perceive as Irish hypocrisy, the more defensive everybody will become and the less chance there is of any discussion that is actually insightful.

To continue this point, if there is any discussion when Irish posters are honest and frank about the failings and successes of Irish Rugby you blundering into it with your generalisations about us being 'disgusting' etc. is going to end that quicker than a Gatland BBC interview after a major Welsh loss.

Reading you saying things like we're a disgusting rugby nation doesn't make me want to engage with you, it makes me feel like I am in the presence of a bigot whose mind is made up and it shuts down the possibility of discussion. To try and ensure that no unintended offence is taken, I do not use the word 'bigot' here as a pejorative insult towards you. I'm using the word to describe the impression your posts create in my mind. I understand if that upsets you, but I'm being honest to try and help you understand why these conversations follow the same pattern as I believe others feel similarly about certain comments that have been made.

I believe that you must consider whether these reactions are really Irish hypocrisy, or rather Irish defensiveness in the face of being treated with contempt. The other side of the coin is that when people are on the defensive they hit back and cause you to become even more entrenched in your position. I intend to stop engaging with you in a negative way, as I appreciate that negative reactions to you cause negative reactions back which is a vicious circle where both parties feel under attack. But for people to open up and engage in positive dialogue mutual respect is needed. At the moment there's no chance of a constructive conversation about the failings of Irish Rugby or the Pro12 because of the flood of posts deriding both and that is very disappointing to me as a moderator and poster.

Notch wrote:
To continue this point, if there is any discussion when Irish posters are honest and frank about the failings and successes of Irish Rugby you blundering into it with your generalisations about us being 'disgusting' etc. is going to end that quicker than a Gatland BBC interview after a major Welsh loss.

Yeah it's pointless Notch I agree.

Not much point hanging round here to be honest.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Yeah it's pointless Notch I agree.

Not much point hanging round here to be honest.

So log off then chunky!!
If you reap a little of what you sow and can't take it then get out of the damn field.
You have been quoted as saying the Irish are a disgusting rugby nation which I don't think you believe for a second anymore than the other comments you've made intentionally to wind folks up. Either be the eternal WUM and never be taken seriously or discuss subjects with similar decorum in which you expect in return.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Splitting it down into the 4 nations: The Welsh on here acknowledge their failings, so do the English and I'm sure the Scots. But I'm not convinced we hear anything but how amazing Irish rugby is from the Irish. I do perhaps focus on that sometimes, but only because I want to change it.

As a proud and upstanding Englishman, I resent the implication that:
1.  We have failings.
2.  That we would ever admit to failings, if ever we had failings, which we don't, and, therefore cannot admit to.  

In the English Rugby context there are indeed two people who actually have failings.  However, they are not truly English:
Nigel Wray, who is a known confidant and sleeper agent for Kim Jong-Il. (wait until you see the Sarries haircuts next season)
Bruce Craig, a known douche from hails from douche-land (everyone there has a nice tan, even in February).

Pete330v2 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Yeah it's pointless Notch I agree.

Not much point hanging round here to be honest.

So log off then chunky!!
If you reap a little of what you sow and can't take it then get out of the damn field.
You have been quoted as saying the Irish are a disgusting rugby nation which I don't think you believe for a second anymore than the other comments you've made intentionally to wind folks up. Either be the eternal WUM and never be taken seriously or discuss subjects with similar decorum in which you expect in return.

I don't think that's true, and if it was said then it's not really on.

The Saint wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Yeah it's pointless Notch I agree.

Not much point hanging round here to be honest.

So log off then chunky!!
If you reap a little of what you sow and can't take it then get out of the damn field.
You have been quoted as saying the Irish are a disgusting rugby nation which I don't think you believe for a second anymore than the other comments you've made intentionally to wind folks up. Either be the eternal WUM and never be taken seriously or discuss subjects with similar decorum in which you expect in return.

I don't think that's true, and if it was said then it's not really on.

It was definately said. I can't be bothered finding the quote as the quoter is regarded as a bit of a joke.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Yeah it's pointless Notch I agree.

Not much point hanging round here to be honest.

To be perfectly honest it isn't good if people feel that they cannot express their opinions or points of view on these forums, and you do bring a bit of wit at times to the forums and some good points, but you would do well to be less antagonistic towards people in making these points.

People might be able to engage with you more. The points you make may hold more weight. At the minute, people just see most of your posts as an attack, and lets be honest, a lot of them are.

Pete330v2 wrote:

The Saint wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Yeah it's pointless Notch I agree.

Not much point hanging round here to be honest.

So log off then chunky!!
If you reap a little of what you sow and can't take it then get out of the damn field.
You have been quoted as saying the Irish are a disgusting rugby nation which I don't think you believe for a second anymore than the other comments you've made intentionally to wind folks up. Either be the eternal WUM and never be taken seriously or discuss subjects with similar decorum in which you expect in return.

I don't think that's true, and if it was said then it's not really on.

It was definately said. I can't be bothered finding the quote as the quoter is regarded as a bit of a joke.

It was in the Connacht-Gloucester thread, as far as I can remember. He described Ireland as a disgusting rugby nation.

Like I said, these are the reasons he is not well appreciated on here.

I didn't write that out very well... What I meant to say was is that I do not think Ireland are a disgusting rugby nation, and saying so isn't on.