England v New Zealand ODI Thread

by **LondonTiger** Tue 2 Jun - 10:35

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

Tuesday 9th June 2015
14:00 Edgbaston

Friday 12th June 2015
13:00 The Kia Oval

Sunday 14th June 2015
10:30 The Ageas Bowl

Wednesday 17th June 2015
14:00 Trent Bridge

Saturday 20th June 2015
10:30 Emirates Durham ICG

New Zealand Squad

Brendon McCullum (c)
Corey Anderson
Trent Boult
Grant Elliott
Martin Guptill
Matt Henry
Tom Latham (wk)
Mitchell McClenaghan
Nathan McCullum
Adam Milne±
Luke Ronchi (wk)
Mitchell Santner
Tim Southee
Ross Taylor
Ben Wheeler
Kane Williamson

England Squad

TBC

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Wed 17 Jun - 18:34

Lol at that fielding

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Wed 17 Jun - 19:07

Is Mitchell McLenaghan the worst seam bowler in international cricket?

Possibly

by Gooseberry Wed 17 Jun - 19:16

Just about to post up about how great Hales is and he gets out. I think this can be described as a DL proof platform though

by king_carlos Wed 17 Jun - 20:12

LondonTiger wrote:I think most of us want 6 genuine bowling options (with Root being a 7th option).

While I may not have been overly complimentary about Ali's recent red ball bowling, surely he has to be considered both to open and as an extra bowler once the Ashes are over. After all we are talking about a man with two ODI hundreds in his first year of ODI cricket and a decent bowling record so far (21 wickets from 21 innings bowled, 163 overs RPO 4.8).

As a bowling option he should be considered but I wouldn't want him as an opener until Roy/Hales have been given a good run and Vince then given a chance as next in line. Quite simply I think all three are better openers than him and that those top two spots are now too central to posting the huge totals ODI demands for them to be used for 'balance' as we have in the past.

As for Ali as a second spinner, he would offer more depth to the batting line-up and an off spinner to contrast Rashid. Plus his record thus far is good as you say. However I also feel that for us to get the best out of a wrist spinners natural wicket taking capabilities we could do with a second spinner to really control the tempo at the other end and take pressure off.

Stokes and Rashid are two players who as part of a 6 man attack being given the chance to bowl attacking spells could be very useful. However for that to work we'd need a second spinner who you could throw the ball to 9 games out of 10 and trust him to be economical for a full 10 overs. For me that man is still Tredwell rather than Moeen.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Wed 17 Jun - 20:33

Eoin Morgan in this form is a pleasure to watch - you can't bowl to him

by kingraf Wed 17 Jun - 20:51

Has a series ever been this embarrassingly anti bowler? Other than, yes England are indeed capable of playing the modern game, I can't imagine anyone learned anything from these last four games.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Wed 17 Jun - 21:09

Olly wrote:Eoin Morgan in this form is a pleasure to watch - you can't bowl to him

What a knock

by JamesLincs Wed 17 Jun - 21:14

gutted ive been plaing football and missed englands innings

by NickisBHAFC Wed 17 Jun - 21:38

This is one of the best ODI series I can remember. All games have been outstanding and England have certainly given us all reason to care about the 50 over format going into the future, rather than preparing ourselves for more disappointment.

by **ShahenshahG** Wed 17 Jun - 21:40

kingraf wrote:Has a series ever been this embarrassingly anti bowler? Other than, yes England are indeed capable of playing the modern game, I can't imagine anyone learned anything from these last four games.

I don't think its been particularly anti - bowler. Its just that the bowlers are broadly sh*t

by king_carlos Wed 17 Jun - 21:41

kingraf wrote:Has a series ever been this embarrassingly anti bowler? Other than, yes England are indeed capable of playing the modern game, I can't imagine anyone learned anything from these last four games.

The pitches are poor and tailored to help out a new England line-up trying to show they bat as required for the 'modern game'.

However much of the bowling, and fielding, has ranged from poor to abysmal.

Boult was excellent prior to injury.

Wood has been impressive and shown what simple, accurate, hard working, hit the deck bowling can do amongst the histrionics.

Finn has mostly been good but nothing more than good.

Other than this it has been mixed at best from some such as Rashid, Willey, Southee and Wheeler.

Then very poor from the rest.

by Hammersmith harrier Wed 17 Jun - 21:43

The bowlers need to look at Glenn McGrath, not only was he a brilliant test match bowler but he was also a brilliant one day bowler and the reason being he bowled line and length.

by king_carlos Wed 17 Jun - 21:43

On a cheerier note another excellent chase from England with it pretty much a mirror image of the 3rd ODI where Root and Morgan got going but didn't play match defining knocks whereas Williamson and Taylor did.

This time around Williamson and Taylor played well without quite doing the business whilst Root and Morgan both went onto centuries.

by GSC Wed 17 Jun - 21:44

Why the negativity. Its been a thoroughly entertaining series, played in a good spirit and highly competitive.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Wed 17 Jun - 21:44

ShahenshahG wrote:
kingraf wrote:Has a series ever been this embarrassingly anti bowler? Other than, yes England are indeed capable of playing the modern game, I can't imagine anyone learned anything from these last four games.

I don't think its been particularly anti - bowler. Its just that the bowlers are broadly sh*t

Pitches are in favour of the batsmen - as they should be in ODI's - but not massively. As Shah gets right, the bowling has been in large an absolute shambles. New Zealand were horrific today with the ball

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Wed 17 Jun - 21:57

GSC wrote:Why the negativity. Its been a thoroughly entertaining series, played in a good spirit and highly competitive.

BRING BACK THE BORING MIDDLE OVERS

by GSC Wed 17 Jun - 21:59

God knows we'd all rather be watching a batsman make 30 runs from 200 deliveries in the 4th innings of a test.

by GSC Wed 17 Jun - 22:02

urine taking aside, people can enjoy what they like. The elitism and putting it down as a bit of a bash irks me. If you don't like it, there really isn't anything forcing you to watch it frankly.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 17 Jun - 22:02

king_carlos wrote:
The pitches are poor and tailored to help out a new England line-up trying to show they bat as required for the 'modern game'.

In what way are they poor? They have been true with bounce and pace. Good bowling, especially today, would have made a major difference. One problem has been a complete lack of swing, which is not the pitches fault.

by Hammersmith harrier Wed 17 Jun - 22:18

GSC wrote:urine taking aside, people can enjoy what they like. The elitism and putting it down as a bit of a bash irks me. If you don't like it, there really isn't anything forcing you to watch it frankly.

Frankly there isn't anything wrong with criticising it for what it is, not everyone is enamoured by the bash of limited overs cricket.

by GSC Wed 17 Jun - 22:23

Is it not rather self defeating to watch it and then post about how much you dislike watching it?

by Hammersmith harrier Wed 17 Jun - 22:27

I watched the first ODI and that is it, the format needs reinvigoration, a chase of 350 shouldn't be expected nor should four scores in a row in excess of 300.

by GSC Wed 17 Jun - 22:29

by Hammersmith harrier Wed 17 Jun - 22:29

It's meant to be a contest between bat and ball not a bashathon.

by JDizzle Wed 17 Jun - 22:32

Mark Wood has played two games where NZ have chased down 302 and made 350, and he's gone below 5 an over in each. Sure, the fielding restrictions are harsh on bowlers but if you bowl well you will find a way to succeed. See Wood and Boult in this series.

by GSC Wed 17 Jun - 22:37

I'm thoroughly enjoying the bashing being done by the likes of Joe Root and Kane Williamson.

Admittedly the bowling has not been of a high standard. The batting however has been exceptional. Why people focus on the first primarily and ignore the 2nd astounds me, especially after watching England play in the world cup.

If you don't enjoy it then that's your prerogative. No issue with that. However there's little value in informing the world you don't enjoy or watch something. Adds very little to the forum saavy?

by Hammersmith harrier Wed 17 Jun - 22:41

Adds very little to the forum saying that members can't have a negative opinion on something.

by GSC Wed 17 Jun - 22:43

If you aren't even watching, sure Smile

by Duty281 Thu 18 Jun - 1:46

Another rubbish game of baseball - I remember when ODI centuries used to be a great achievement!

by CaledonianCraig Thu 18 Jun - 9:03

Duty281 wrote:Another rubbish game of baseball - I remember when ODI centuries used to be a great achievement!

Now its just more of an ODI achievement if a bowler takes a five for.

by Stella Thu 18 Jun - 9:27

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Another rubbish game of baseball - I remember when ODI centuries used to be a great achievement!

Now its just more of an ODI achievement if a bowler takes a five for.

Strike rates might actually improve, unlike economy rates.

I can see where the hammer, and duty are coming from. These 350 scores will become boring after a while. Similar I suppose to Football making nets bigger and seeing 5-5 draws week in week out.

This doesn't discredit our boys on an excellent run chase.

by dummy_half Thu 18 Jun - 9:34

Clearly at the moment the 50 over regulations are favourable to batting sides, at least on wickets that play reasonably true - if you look at the balance of the England team we only have two players who are picked for their bowling only (Finn and Wood), with the other bowlers being all rounders and in Stokes case particularly something of a batting all-rounder.

There was some good bowling in this match, both at the start of the NZ innings when Finn bowled well with no reward and during the batting power play when Finn and Wood reined in the situation before NZ got away and could push towards 400. Similarly, Boult in particular has bowled well for NZ, and others have chipped in with good performances at times.

I do though wonder when I entered the parallel universe in which an England ODI side can chase down 350 and make it look at least 75 runs light...

by **LondonTiger** Thu 18 Jun - 9:38

Oh things need to change as it is far too unbalanced towards the batsman. First change should be the ball. Have one with a decent seam that interests quicks and spinners and that can last 50 overs in a vaguely white colour so we do not have the two balls system. Bowlers have gained bugger all from this, but at the end of the innings the ball is still hard and far too easy to smack. Add in short boundaries and less outfielders and it is far too easy to slog.

However good bowling is still rewarded. Finn and Wood bowled with pace and control and were hard to score quickly off.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Thu 18 Jun - 9:44

Bowlers also need to catch up - batsmen nowadays are much stronger and spend much more time practising these six hitting shots (a lot of them are going into the stands so doesn't matter where you put the boundaries!)

by **LondonTiger** Thu 18 Jun - 9:51

Risk/Reward though.

At the moment for many batsmen the risk is minimal as even a top edge or mistimed drive will clear the boundary.

by Stella Thu 18 Jun - 9:53

25 fielders should even it out Very Happy

by **LondonTiger** Thu 18 Jun - 10:21

Not if they drop chances at the rate we have seen in the last two matches.

Perhaps we should dock the runs for any 6 caught by the crowd?

by alfie Thu 18 Jun - 14:37

Didn't see any of this match , but followed the latter part of the NZ innings on line ...and to be honest I rather fancied England to chase down the 350 target - though not with 4overs and seven wickets to spare ! Shows how at least my expectations have changed in a week or two.
Has been a bit too bat-dominated ; but I'm not complaining - so refreshing to see England batting in this manner. And most of the games have been close enough : the really boring ODIs are when one side scores a monster total and the opponent never looks remotely like competing. I'm sure we'll see a damp and lively pitch again some
day...
Has to be said also that some of the bowling and a lot of the catching has been ordinary to say the least.

Just hope it is fine up north on Saturday !

by king_carlos Thu 18 Jun - 21:23

LondonTiger wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
The pitches are poor and tailored to help out a new England line-up trying to show they bat as required for the 'modern game'.

In what way are they poor? They have been true with bounce and pace. Good bowling, especially today, would have made a major difference. One problem has been a complete lack of swing, which is not the pitches fault.

Other than Edgbaston they have offered little turn and lateral movement for the quicks has been limited to the first few overs, if there has been any. Yes swing played a part here but the lack of movement for spinners or seamers in the middle overs have made them very difficult to bowl in.

As I've said the main issue was the poor bowling but a bit more is needed from the wickets as well IMO.

by Jetty Fri 19 Jun - 1:21

I can't see England get 300 against the Australians. Starc Johnson, and Hazlewood all go at under 5.00 an over. Only Boult of the Kiwis does and he has gone home.

by KP_fan Fri 19 Jun - 4:14

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/video_audio/888871.html
Morgan credits his success to IPL

well....he's comitted blasphemy, another KP in the making and will be dumped soon as he fails and "English" Root made the captain Smile

Pitches continue to disappoint and make it hard to take these games seriously Sad

by **LondonTiger** Fri 19 Jun - 10:16

king_carlos wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
The pitches are poor and tailored to help out a new England line-up trying to show they bat as required for the 'modern game'.

In what way are they poor? They have been true with bounce and pace. Good bowling, especially today, would have made a major difference. One problem has been a complete lack of swing, which is not the pitches fault.

Other than Edgbaston they have offered little turn and lateral movement for the quicks has been limited to the first few overs, if there has been any. Yes swing played a part here but the lack of movement for spinners or seamers in the middle overs have made them very difficult to bowl in.

As I've said the main issue was the poor bowling but a bit more is needed from the wickets as well IMO.

Thing is, if we put in pitches that turn and seam then we will be seeing 150 run innings, and people will moan. You cannot realistically prepare an international wicket for an ODI with some seam movement but not too much, it is not an exact science.

anyway I reckon Starc and Johnson would have loved the pace and knocked us over for under 250.

by Gooseberry Fri 19 Jun - 14:47

KP_fan wrote:http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/video_audio/888871.html
Morgan credits his success to IPL

well....he's comitted blasphemy, another KP in the making and will be dumped soon as he fails and "English" Root made the captain

Pitches continue to disappoint and make it hard to take these games seriously

Has your account been taken over by kpfan? Incase you missed it the ecb told morgan and hales to go to the Ipl this year.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 19 Jun - 15:40

Jonny Bairstow called up as cover for Joss Buttler who has damaged a hand.

by king_carlos Fri 19 Jun - 16:33

LondonTiger wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
The pitches are poor and tailored to help out a new England line-up trying to show they bat as required for the 'modern game'.

In what way are they poor? They have been true with bounce and pace. Good bowling, especially today, would have made a major difference. One problem has been a complete lack of swing, which is not the pitches fault.

Other than Edgbaston they have offered little turn and lateral movement for the quicks has been limited to the first few overs, if there has been any. Yes swing played a part here but the lack of movement for spinners or seamers in the middle overs have made them very difficult to bowl in.

As I've said the main issue was the poor bowling but a bit more is needed from the wickets as well IMO.

Thing is, if we put in pitches that turn and seam then we will be seeing 150 run innings, and people will moan. You cannot realistically prepare an international wicket for an ODI with some seam movement but not too much, it is not an exact science.

anyway I reckon Starc and Johnson would have loved the pace and knocked us over for under 250.

Pitches are never an exact science, however if groundsmen continue to simply produce pitches with 'good pace and bounce' because it gives them something reliable then every match is going to end up being the same.

If they try to produce a wicket with something for the bowlers then sometimes weather conditions might lead to a pitch being too tough for big scores but it would at least provide something different. That is the beauty of pitch preparation not being an exact science, we don't know exactly what sort of match it will give us.

Unless of course we produce perfectly flat and faultless batting wickets. They may be reliable but they will also produce extremely similar matches 9 times out of 10.

by king_carlos Fri 19 Jun - 16:35

If Buttler is unavailable it might be a good chance to try another bowler in the side with Billings moving up to 6 and keeping. It could also give Billings longer at the wicket to show what he's got with the bat.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 19 Jun - 21:03

Except they do not trust Billings to keep wicket.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Fri 19 Jun - 21:06

Sure I read somewhere that Billings had a knock too

by **LondonTiger** Fri 19 Jun - 21:11

Olly wrote:Sure I read somewhere that Billings had a knock too

Maybe - he was wringing his hands after fielding a ball - though Bairstow was put on standby before the series started.

by alfie Sat 20 Jun - 12:49

Anyone watching this ?

I came in a bit late ; have to say the fireworks we've become accustomed to are missing at present ...this is more like the old "boring middle overs" , though a run rate of a little under five isn't exactly crawling , at 138/2 after that six deliberately edged over the keeper !
NZ with plenty of wickets in hand so I'm sure there will be a charge eventually. But it isn't looking like 300 plus this time...

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