Merthyr RFC set to become new force in Welsh Rugby

First topic message reminder :

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/merthyr-rfc-set-become-new-9377183

Thoughts?

Is that new rd/by-pass finished up by you yet LD?

Breadvan wrote:Is that new rd/by-pass finished up by you yet LD?

It's been finished for a few years now Breadvan. It has brought a hell of a lot of work with it as well. There are new retail parks around it as well, that attracts thousands of people to the town every week. The town center, where our shop is based has had millions upon millions spent on it as well, there is a new massive state of the art college been built, and the town center has had a massive face lift, all marble slabs and plaza's. 

The only issue I have is the one way system they have put in the town, the center is like one big round-about now.

Merthyr must be the busiest place outside the cities in Wales right now. The amount of retail going on here is unreal.

LordDowlais wrote:You see, for me phil, the regions/pathways are far too comfy. They continue to underachieve and answer to nobody, they never need to up their game as there is nobody to threaten them, we need the threat of the chance that others can take their place if they are constantly finishing at the bottom of the league and not achieving anything.

Sure, there's a lot to be said for that.

The easiest way around it is to pay the way the French do for access to players for internationals - a smaller lump sum compounded by a daily fee for access.

At the moment, the other three are subsidising the NGD - and for what benefit?

Griff wrote:

I admit my knowledge on the legal side is not great here, and I'm happy to learn. But it strikes me that if the WRU had the power to force the old 10 sides from the Welsh Prem into regional rugby, downgrading businesses from professional sports clubs to semi-pro, and therefore in one fell swoop severely impacting the businesses and their earnings, then I don't see why they can't do it again. Back then I'm guessing the WRU had even less control over than they do now? The old clubs were much more autonomous, business wise.

They didn't have the power in 2003 to do that, hence it was done by agreement and an agreement that delivered two standalones. There were years left on a Loyalty Agreement that the WRU couldn't afford to pay off, so nobody was 'forced' into anything.

Now, the four we have are too powerful to shut down. Lewis tried to, and failed. Badly.

PhilBB wrote:

Griff wrote:

I admit my knowledge on the legal side is not great here, and I'm happy to learn. But it strikes me that if the WRU had the power to force the old 10 sides from the Welsh Prem into regional rugby, downgrading businesses from professional sports clubs to semi-pro, and therefore in one fell swoop severely impacting the businesses and their earnings, then I don't see why they can't do it again. Back then I'm guessing the WRU had even less control over than they do now? The old clubs were much more autonomous, business wise.

They didn't have the power in 2003 to do that, hence it was done by agreement and an agreement that delivered two standalones. There were years left on a Loyalty Agreement that the WRU couldn't afford to pay off, so nobody was 'forced' into anything.

Now, the four we have are too powerful to shut down. Lewis tried to, and failed. Badly.

Why did the Welsh clubs agree to it then? I'm not arguing here, just genuinely interested. If the WRU couldn't force them into it then it seems silly that they'd agree, especially the likes of Ebbw Vale, Caerphilly, Neath, Ponty to a certain extent (although they did get games at Sardis). For all intents and purposes these clubs were cut out of pro rugby. It's like turkeys voting for Christmas.

PhilBB wrote:At the moment, the other three are subsidising the NGD - and for what benefit?

Be careful you will have the Newport V2 mafia onto you for saying things like that.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:You see, for me phil, the regions/pathways are far too comfy. They continue to underachieve and answer to nobody, they never need to up their game as there is nobody to threaten them, we need the threat of the chance that others can take their place if they are constantly finishing at the bottom of the league and not achieving anything.

Sure, there's a lot to be said for that.

The easiest way around it is to pay the way the French do for access to players for internationals - a smaller lump sum compounded by a daily fee for access.

At the moment, the other three are subsidising the NGD - and for what benefit?

Bollox to running our game the way the PRL and LNR run the show in their countries. It only works for two countries in world rugby.

Subsidising? I don't think so. WRU owns 50% and has done NOTHING with their half. We also don't get enough dual contracts, for example Lydiate and Faletau. Charteris...aye why not. Then the likes of Thornton, King, Baker, Rh Jones (none of them on a French radar) signed up without haste. You're arguing against the wrong group, which is why a certain someone is beginning to hump your leg. WRUs prerogative doesn't seem to want 4 strong teams.

mikey_dragon wrote:WRUs prerogative doesn't seem to want 4 strong teams.

Yep, it's all the fault of the WRU.

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:WRUs prerogative doesn't seem to want 4 strong teams.

Yep, it's all the fault of the WRU.

Is it? Well they did form and help fund/run the 4 teams. Unless growing welsh rugby has suddenly not been their prerogative since last night. Can anyone confirm this?

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:At the moment, the other three are subsidising the NGD - and for what benefit?

Be careful you will have the Newport V2 mafia onto you for saying things like that.

I Knew it! That little dangler had to get a bite from Lord Dowlais. Very predictable.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:You see, for me phil, the regions/pathways are far too comfy. They continue to underachieve and answer to nobody, they never need to up their game as there is nobody to threaten them, we need the threat of the chance that others can take their place if they are constantly finishing at the bottom of the league and not achieving anything.

Sure, there's a lot to be said for that.

The easiest way around it is to pay the way the French do for access to players for internationals - a smaller lump sum compounded by a daily fee for access.

At the moment, the other three are subsidising the NGD - and for what benefit?

If there was some sort of revenue returned from the regions to the WRU and then distributed back amongst the regions (like in Ireland), then yes I could see how a region could be subsidised by the others. But that's not the case in Wales. I can't see how else the other 3 are subsidising the Dragons. If it's because they all get an equal share of WRU money, but you think the Dragons should get less, then that's just subjective. But certainly Peter Thomas is not putting his hand in his pocket and send £££ down the motorway to Newport. Realistically, if all of the regions get the same contribution from the WRU, then the team that is most subsidised is the one with the most NDCs. Ospreys? And I don't begrudge them that to be honest. I'd prefer to see NDC players playing in the Champions Cup than in the Challenge Cup. But it's still more subsidisation that the Dragons on that front.

There's no point discussing this - Cardiff RFC are the greatest region in the Multiverse and the Dragons should be disbanded and our backs handed over to their Blue overlords.

My gripe with this subsidising thing is that producing internationals is somewhat unfair sometimes. For example, is it Dragons fault that Gatland prefers say Cuthbert over Amos or Hewitt?

Not sure if I am allowed to contribute now it's a Newport mafia kind of thing though?

munkian wrote:There's no point  discussing this - Cardiff RFC are the greatest region in the Multiverse and the Dragons should be disbanded and our backs handed over to their Blue overlords

About the first sensible thing you have said on here for a long time if ever

Griff wrote:

Why did the Welsh clubs agree to it then? I'm not arguing here, just genuinely interested. If the WRU couldn't force them into it then it seems silly that they'd agree, especially the likes of Ebbw Vale, Caerphilly, Neath, Ponty to a certain extent (although they did get games at Sardis). For all intents and purposes these clubs were cut out of pro rugby. It's like turkeys voting for Christmas.

They agreed to it as they knew they could not survive on the minimum payments afforded by the Loyalty Agreement. It's that simple. In effect, they could have been starved out of existence.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Bollox to running our game the way the PRL and LNR run the show in their countries. It only works for two countries in world rugby.

Subsidising? I don't think so. WRU owns 50% and has done NOTHING with their half. We also don't get enough dual contracts, for example Lydiate and Faletau. Charteris...aye why not. Then the likes of Thornton, King, Baker, Rh Jones (none of them on a French radar) signed up without haste. You're arguing against the wrong group, which is why a certain someone is beginning to hump your leg. WRUs prerogative doesn't seem to want 4 strong teams.

Erm, we do run the game here as PRL and LNR do.

The subsidising of the NGD comes from their equal split of payment for player access by the WRU whilst not supplying their equal share of players.

Lydiate didn't want to go back the NGD. Faletau wanted to leave. You haven't got a leg to stand on with those two players.

If you are moaning about players not on the French radar getting NDC then talk me through Morgan and Amos (both who want out of the NGD this summer).

I don't know what the final two sentences mean but the ones written before them were complete nonsense.

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:WRUs prerogative doesn't seem to want 4 strong teams.

Yep, it's all the fault of the WRU.

Having met Phillips, I can personally note that mike's point there is also utter nonsense.

mikey_dragon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:WRUs prerogative doesn't seem to want 4 strong teams.

Yep, it's all the fault of the WRU.

Is it? Well they did form and help fund/run the 4 teams. Unless growing welsh rugby has suddenly not been their prerogative since last night. Can anyone confirm this?

It has been since November 1st, 2015.

Griff wrote:
If there was some sort of revenue returned from the regions to the WRU and then distributed back amongst the regions (like in Ireland), then yes I could see how a region could be subsidised by the others.  But that's not the case in Wales.  I can't see how else the other 3 are subsidising the Dragons.  If it's because they all get an equal share of WRU money, but you think the Dragons should get less, then that's just subjective.  But certainly Peter Thomas is not putting his hand in his pocket and send £££ down the motorway to Newport.  Realistically, if all of the regions get the same contribution from the WRU, then the team that is most subsidised is the one with the most NDCs.  Ospreys?  And I don't begrudge them that to be honest.  I'd prefer to see NDC players playing in the Champions Cup than in the Challenge Cup.  But it's still more subsidisation that the Dragons on that front.

They are subsidising the NGD by the NGD accepting 1/4 of the payments for player release whilst not supplying their fair share.

It's an interesting claim that NDCs subsidise the team and, in a sense, you're right. Gatland skews the market by awarding NDCs to non-deserving players like Amos, Morgan, King, Thornton, Baker etc.

munkian wrote:There's no point  discussing this - Cardiff RFC are the greatest region in the Multiverse and the Dragons should be disbanded and our backs handed over to their Blue overlords.

Grow up, Champ.

RiscaGame wrote:My gripe with this subsidising thing is that producing internationals is somewhat unfair sometimes. For example, is it Dragons fault that Gatland prefers say Cuthbert over Amos or Hewitt?

Not sure if I am allowed to contribute now it's a Newport mafia kind of thing though?

Go back to 2003. Work out where the players have come from for selection.

NGD has never pulled its weight, let's be honest.

No they haven't a lot of the time. Hence why I wrote it as somewhat unfair etc, when there has been cases sometimes of Gatland's faves being given the nod over in form players at Dave. That doesn't mean I don't disagree that they could do more to bring players through however, but then they aren't alone with that.

Though Dowlais wasn't on about the Dragons specifically and nor is his idea of the pro teams answering to somebody or (even worse) being replaced by somebody realistic.

Are Cardiff fans really in a position to crow about underachieving ?

munkian wrote:Are Cardiff fans really in a position to crow about underachieving ?

When it comes to all but the Os?

Yes.

We were achieving nicely until Lewis got his claws into the game.

PhilBB wrote:

munkian wrote:Are Cardiff fans really in a position to crow about underachieving ?

When it comes to all but the Os?

Yes.

We were achieving nicely until Lewis got his claws into the game.

So it is the WRU's fault!

Gethin is a homegrown player but will be out to pasture soon

Will Dacey even be used ?

Turnbull is exactly homegrown, neither is James nor Anscombe.

So that leaves who ? Warburton ? Plays more for Wales than Cardiff

Allen - Yup, solid player.

Cuthbert - dont get me started.

Brymor jnr - Again, solid enough.

So whose left in the pipe line ?

Griff wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

munkian wrote:Are Cardiff fans really in a position to crow about underachieving ?

When it comes to all but the Os?

Yes.

We were achieving nicely until Lewis got his claws into the game.

So it is the WRU's fault!

Was.

1/11/15 The new beginning.

munkian wrote:Gethin is a homegrown player but will be out to pasture soon

Will Dacey even be used ?

Turnbull  is exactly homegrown, neither is James nor Anscombe.

So that leaves who ? Warburton ? Plays more for Wales than Cardiff

Allen - Yup, solid player.

Cuthbert - dont get me started.

Brymor jnr - Again, solid enough.

So whose left in the pipe line ?

Are you on about Cardiff Academy graduate Tom James? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Could you explain, please?

PhilBB wrote:

Griff wrote:
If there was some sort of revenue returned from the regions to the WRU and then distributed back amongst the regions (like in Ireland), then yes I could see how a region could be subsidised by the others.  But that's not the case in Wales.  I can't see how else the other 3 are subsidising the Dragons.  If it's because they all get an equal share of WRU money, but you think the Dragons should get less, then that's just subjective.  But certainly Peter Thomas is not putting his hand in his pocket and send £££ down the motorway to Newport.  Realistically, if all of the regions get the same contribution from the WRU, then the team that is most subsidised is the one with the most NDCs.  Ospreys?  And I don't begrudge them that to be honest.  I'd prefer to see NDC players playing in the Champions Cup than in the Challenge Cup.  But it's still more subsidisation that the Dragons on that front.

They are subsidising the NGD by the NGD accepting 1/4 of the payments for player release whilst not supplying their fair share.

It's an interesting claim that NDCs subsidise the team and, in a sense, you're right. Gatland skews the market by awarding NDCs to non-deserving players like Amos, Morgan, King, Thornton, Baker etc.

But a region doesn't get a choice in who is selected from their squad. And the volume selected from any region varies constantly. Perhaps it should be payment per player instead then? But then a club can be awarded or penalised based on subjectivities, which doesn't seem right. Not in the provincial model the WRU have adopted. But then again the payment is an agreement to give access and release players, which the Dragons do when asked. They're keeping up their side of the bargain. The payment doesn't stipulate volume, just release.

Sure the Dragons could do more. Sure there perhaps should have been more players selected from the Dragons in the past. We're trying to monetise Gatland's opinion here, which is very difficult to do.

Griff wrote:

But a region doesn't get a choice in who is selected from their squad. And the volume selected from any region varies constantly. Perhaps it should be payment per player instead then? But then a club can be awarded or penalised based on subjectivities, which doesn't seem right. Not in the provincial model the WRU have adopted.  But then again the payment is an agreement to give access and release players, which the Dragons do when asked. They're keeping up their side of the bargain. The payment doesn't stipulate volume, just release.

Sure the Dragons could do more. Sure there perhaps should have been more players selected from the Dragons in the past. We're trying to monetise Gatland's opinion here, which is very difficult to do.

That's what I'm suggesting - payment per player, compounded by the French system of a daily payment for access.

What's this 'provincial model the WRU have adopted', sorry?

RiscaGame wrote:Though Dowlais wasn't on about the Dragons specifically and nor is his idea of the pro teams answering to somebody or (even worse) being replaced by somebody realistic.

That's the trouble though isn't it ? Dragons have been down the bottom end of the league table for the past decade, they still get the same funding off the WRU every season, so why the need to change, and before you jump on me, I am just using Dragons as an example, seeing as their your team.

The thing is, no matter how rubbish the regions perform, no matter how long they go under this new agreement, they have no reason to up their game, they are not under threat, nobody is giving them a kick up the @rse. If the regions had the threat of another taking their place, unless they proved they could start doing better, they will just keep on meandering along, shooting the breeze, keeping the status quo. 

The mindsets in the regions needs changing, you can keep chucking money at a problem, but it would not fix the issues we have, unless the status quo is changed, then the regions will just keep trundling along, business as usual.

munkian wrote:Gethin is a homegrown player but will be out to pasture soon

Will Dacey even be used ?

Turnbull  is exactly homegrown, neither is James nor Anscombe.

So that leaves who ? Warburton ? Plays more for Wales than Cardiff

Allen - Yup, solid player.

Cuthbert - dont get me started.

Brymor jnr - Again, solid enough.

So whose left in the pipe line ?

Cardiff have produced and nurtured some of the finest players to represent Wales in the last decade.

Off the top of my head:-

Gethin Jenkins
Martyn Williams
Leigh Halfpenny
Jamie Roberts
Bradley Davies
Tom Shanklin
Sam Warburton.

If I think of anymore I will add them.

PhilBB wrote:

Griff wrote:

But a region doesn't get a choice in who is selected from their squad. And the volume selected from any region varies constantly. Perhaps it should be payment per player instead then? But then a club can be awarded or penalised based on subjectivities, which doesn't seem right. Not in the provincial model the WRU have adopted.  But then again the payment is an agreement to give access and release players, which the Dragons do when asked. They're keeping up their side of the bargain. The payment doesn't stipulate volume, just release.

Sure the Dragons could do more. Sure there perhaps should have been more players selected from the Dragons in the past. We're trying to monetise Gatland's opinion here, which is very difficult to do.

That's what I'm suggesting - payment per player, compounded by the French system of a daily payment for access.

What's this 'provincial model the WRU have adopted', sorry?

Regional rugby. 4 areas with clubs within it all feeding up to a pro team, thus pulling together in one direction. Equal funding. Central contracts. Union involvement. Like Ireland and NZ. The opposite of England and France. The thing they did when they decided to change away from our previous model that was like that of England and France.

munkian wrote:Gethin is a homegrown player

The same Gethin Jenkins I was in school with who went all the way through Ponty Youth and the Ponty senior side until 2003 when the "regions" came in

Yeah pure Cardiff homegrown indeed

Griff wrote:

Regional rugby. 4 areas with clubs within it all feeding up to a pro team, thus pulling together in one direction. Equal funding. Central contracts. Union involvement. Like Ireland and NZ. The opposite of England and France. The thing they did when they decided to change away from our previous model that was like that of England and France.

You don't honestly believe that nonsense, do you?

The 'region' is only the pathway that exists for kids. There are no central contracts, there is no Union involvement.

In NZ & Ireland, the Union owns all of the player contracts. You know, the complete opposite of HERE, France and England.

There is nothing 'regional' about the Pro Teams (see prorugbywales) at the top of the tree, other than the Academy pathways they run.

Steffan wrote:

munkian wrote:Gethin is a homegrown player

The same Gethin Jenkins I was in school with who went all the way through Ponty Youth and the Ponty senior side until 2003 when the "regions" came in

Yeah pure Cardiff homegrown indeed

He just wanted to play for the club his father played for.


Cardiff.

Steffan wrote:

munkian wrote:Gethin is a homegrown player

The same Gethin Jenkins I was in school with who went all the way through Ponty Youth and the Ponty senior side until 2003 when the "regions" came in

Yeah pure Cardiff homegrown indeed

To be fair Steff, he played most of his rugby out of Cardiff, they might not have produced him, but they nurtured him, and under Dai Young he became quite the player.

LordDowlais wrote:

Steffan wrote:

munkian wrote:Gethin is a homegrown player

The same Gethin Jenkins I was in school with who went all the way through Ponty Youth and the Ponty senior side until 2003 when the "regions" came in

Yeah pure Cardiff homegrown indeed

To be fair Steff, he played most of his rugby out of Cardiff, they might not have produced him, but they nurtured him, and under Dai Young he became quite the player.

He won his first cap as a Ponty player and went all the way through youth there

Cardiff don't deserve a medal. As a "region" it was their job to get the best out of him when he signed

That's not my point though. He is not Kaiiiidiff homegrown and to suggest otherwise is stupid

Steffan wrote:
He won his first cap as a Ponty player and went all the way through youth there

Cardiff don't deserve a medal. As a "region" it was their job to get the best out of him when he signed

That's not my point though. He is not Kaiiiidiff homegrown and to suggest otherwise is stupid

This man ^ is right.

Although Cardiff did make him a Lion.

LordDowlais wrote:No matter how rubbish the regions perform, no matter how long they go under this new agreement, they have no reason to up their game, they are not under threat, nobody is giving them a kick up the @rse. If the regions had the threat of another taking their place, unless they proved they could start doing better, they will just keep on meandering along, shooting the breeze, keeping the status quo.

You keep repeating this guff, Dowlais. You really do seem to believe that the regions are happy to be underachieving, that they're not trying to improve.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:No matter how rubbish the regions perform, no matter how long they go under this new agreement, they have no reason to up their game, they are not under threat, nobody is giving them a kick up the @rse. If the regions had the threat of another taking their place, unless they proved they could start doing better, they will just keep on meandering along, shooting the breeze, keeping the status quo.

You keep repeating this guff, Dowlais. You really do seem to believe that the regions are happy to be underachieving, that they're not trying to improve.

In fairness, what are the NGD doing to improve?

FFS, they charge their own players for food at Ystrad Mynach. They are that skint (and badly run)

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:No matter how rubbish the regions perform, no matter how long they go under this new agreement, they have no reason to up their game, they are not under threat, nobody is giving them a kick up the @rse. If the regions had the threat of another taking their place, unless they proved they could start doing better, they will just keep on meandering along, shooting the breeze, keeping the status quo.

You keep repeating this guff, Dowlais. You really do seem to believe that the regions are happy to be underachieving, that they're not trying to improve.

I wouldn't say the "regions" are happy to be underachieving (expect the Dragons who are just seem happy to even exist) but I find it hard to see how they are going to get any better under the current setup. The WRU seem to be happy with it though as lets be honest the failure of domestic rugby in Wales has no bearing on the £70,000 who turn up to watch Wales 6-8 times a year

As my mate who is a Cardiff supporter says...the regional/club game and international game are two separate types of supporters most of the time

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:You keep repeating this guff, Dowlais. You really do seem to believe that the regions are happy to be underachieving, that they're not trying to improve.

Again, another surmising sweeping statement at me.

Look, what incentive is there for the regions to change ?

If they finished 12th,11th,10th,9th in the league every year and never won the CC, then how would that affect them ? It wouldn't, as long as they are producing players for Wales, the WRU will STILL fund them the same, there is NOTHING to shake the regions into changing their ways, the players are there, they excel for team Wales, yet when they play for the regions, apart from AWJ, Biggar and every now and then Faletau they are shadows of the players that play for Wales.

That for me tells me that the mindsets of the regions needs a drastic overhaul, they are never looking over their shoulders, there is nobody sticking their hands in the air for a turn at pro rugby, so they have nothing to fear with failure.

Steffan wrote:
You keep repeating this guff, Dowlais. You really do seem to believe that the regions are happy to be underachieving, that they're not trying to improve.

I wouldn't say the "regions" are happy to be underachieving (expect the Dragons who are just seem happy to even exist) but I find it hard to see how they are going to get any better under the current setup. The WRU seem to be happy with it though as lets be honest the failure of domestic rugby in Wales has no bearing on the £70,000 who turn up to watch Wales 6-8 times a year

As my mate who is a Cardiff supporter says...the regional/club game and international game are two separate types of supporters most of the time[/quote]

Whilst your mate is fundamentally correct, we should never forget Roger's Big Flag that covered the seats when he couldn't sell out Team Wales games. This wasn't too long ago.

As for our pro teams getting better, each has agreed to a salary cap rise of £1m per season and, until Barclays allow, the NDC pot will fluctuate to dribble some more money into the game.

Once the EPRC income goes over €60m there is also the kick back from that, so there are obvious signs of green shoots.

And, remember, October 31st 2015 wasn't that long ago.

PhilBB wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:No matter how rubbish the regions perform, no matter how long they go under this new agreement, they have no reason to up their game, they are not under threat, nobody is giving them a kick up the @rse. If the regions had the threat of another taking their place, unless they proved they could start doing better, they will just keep on meandering along, shooting the breeze, keeping the status quo.

You keep repeating this guff, Dowlais. You really do seem to believe that the regions are happy to be underachieving, that they're not trying to improve.

In fairness, what are the NGD doing to improve?

FFS, they charge their own players for food at Ystrad Mynach. They are that skint (and badly run)

I'm sure they're trying to sign the best players they can. The last few haven't been bad - Landman, Crosswell, Harris, Pretorius. I'd like to see us recruit a new coaching team, but you can't have it all.

LordDowlais wrote: they excel for team Wales, yet when they play for the regions, apart from AWJ, Biggar and every now and then Faletau they are shadows of the players that play for Wales.

That's simplistic, nonsense and insulting.

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:You keep repeating this guff, Dowlais. You really do seem to believe that the regions are happy to be underachieving, that they're not trying to improve.

Again, another surmising sweeping statement at me.

But you do seem to believe the regions are happy to be where they are. You keep saying so.

PhilBB wrote:As for our pro teams getting better, each has agreed to a salary cap rise of £1m per season and, until Barclays allow, the NDC pot will fluctuate to dribble some more money into the game. 

Once the EPRC income goes over €60m there is also the kick back from that, so there are obvious signs of green shoots. 

I hope you are right Phil, but all the money in the world will not stop players putting in less effort for the regions than they do for their country. It will also not stop the inept coaching, and the banging you head against the wall until it works tactics.

But I have said on other debates, that the only thing keeping me going is that the fact that all you have said might make next season better.

Here's hoping.

LordDowlais wrote:
I hope you are right Phil, but all the money in the world will not stop players putting in less effort for the regions than they do for their country. It will also not stop the inept coaching, and the banging you head against the wall until it works tactics.

Name the inept coaches and players who try less hard for their employers than they do for Team Wales.

Quantify this rhetoric.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:You keep repeating this guff, Dowlais. You really do seem to believe that the regions are happy to be underachieving, that they're not trying to improve.

Again, another surmising sweeping statement at me.

But you do seem to believe the regions are happy to be where they are. You keep saying so.

That's only because I see no signs of improvement. In fact, the regions are worst this year than they were last year.