Merthyr RFC set to become new force in Welsh Rugby

First topic message reminder :

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/merthyr-rfc-set-become-new-9377183

Thoughts?

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So improvement in league position would be your primary aim? Is that SMART?

Well, no I did say on AND off the field improvements. But a better league showing would be a start. I Sky+'ed the Ulster game from Friday night, Dragons played very good rugby, if they kept that up, they would be in the top 6 no problem, but for some reason, they will go down like that, and then next week, will get played off the park like up in Edinburgh. Look, when Dragons turn it on, they are a very good side, but they do not do it often enough.

The NGD were missing one player to international duty. How many were Ulster missing?

No 7&1/2 wrote:So improvement in league position and off the field improvements; even harder task. What would your specific aim for the Dragons be then?

Look 7&1/2, is this going to be one of those sessions, where you just keep on and on at me, trying your best to trip me up ? 

Because if it is I would rather we cut this short now. 

So can you please let me know where you are going with this and what points you are trying to make ?

Eh? Just intrigued in what you think the Dragons should be held to. You seem to be implying that they should be finishing top 6 this year along with some off the field requirements? Is that correct, what would be the off field requirements?

Would you like to see any restrictions to how the Dragons run themselves or would they just be able to get on with it?

LordDowlais wrote:

Look 7&1/2, is this going to be one of those sessions, where you just keep on and on at me, trying your best to trip me up ? 

You published an opinion. If you'd thought it through then you'd have the answers to these fair questions.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Look 7&1/2, is this going to be one of those sessions, where you just keep on and on at me, trying your best to trip me up ? 

You published an opinion. If you'd thought it through then you'd have the answers to these fair questions.

Phil, you need to know what he is like, he will just keep on and on and on........

Asking for an answer to a simple question? Yeah I do do that.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Eh? Just intrigued in what you think the Dragons should be held to. You seem to be implying that they should be finishing top 6 this year along with some off the field requirements? Is that correct, what would be the off field requirements?

Would you like to see any restrictions to how the Dragons run themselves or would they just be able to get on with it?

Ok fair enough, if Dragons finished as the bottom region this year, and were 9th in the league, then the same for the next two or three seasons, with no sign of improvement, I would like the WRU to say something like, OK, you are not performing, so unless you show us how you are going to improve this, that and the other we are going to give another team a chance.

Then Dragons will have a kick up the @rris, and if they are still finishing 9th or lower season upon season, with no signs of improvement on and off the field, somebody else is given the chance.

the thing is, the regions NEVER have to worry about failure, they could all finish wherever they liked in the league and Europe, and never lose out on anything.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Eh? Just intrigued in what you think the Dragons should be held to. You seem to be implying that they should be finishing top 6 this year along with some off the field requirements? Is that correct, what would be the off field requirements?

Would you like to see any restrictions to how the Dragons run themselves or would they just be able to get on with it?

Ok fair enough, if Dragons finished as the bottom region this year, and were 9th in the league, then the same for the next two or three seasons, with no sign of improvement, I would like the WRU to say something like, OK, you are not performing, so unless you show us how you are going to improve this, that and the other we are going to give another team a chance.

Then Dragons will have a kick up the @rris, and if they are still finishing 9th or lower season upon season, with no signs of improvement on and off the field, somebody else is given the chance.

the thing is, the regions NEVER have to worry about failure, they could all finish wherever they liked in the league and Europe, and never lose out on anything.

I wish that was true.

LordDowlais wrote:

Phil, you need to know what he is like, he will just keep on and on and on........

He wouldn't have chance to if you could actually answer his question.

So we've narrowed it down to finish 8th or above and some off the field improvements (which I assume you haven't thought out).

Would you give them free reign ie they can fill their side with foreign mercenaries etc?

P.s. I wouldn't have to keep asking if you'd just answer!

LordDowlais wrote:
Ok fair enough, if Dragons finished as the bottom region this year, and were 9th in the league, then the same for the next two or three seasons, with no sign of improvement, I would like the WRU to say something like, OK, you are not performing, so unless you show us how you are going to improve this, that and the other we are going to give another team a chance.

Then Dragons will have a kick up the @rris, and if they are still finishing 9th or lower season upon season, with no signs of improvement on and off the field, somebody else is given the chance.

the thing is, the regions NEVER have to worry about failure, they could all finish wherever they liked in the league and Europe, and never lose out on anything.

What other team?

PhilBB wrote:What other team?

Well, if a very wealthy man, I don't know, lets pluck one out of the air, lets say, Stan Thomas decided he wanted a crack at putting a pro team together, then the WRU should look at the possibilities of replacing a pro team that is not achieving anything.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Would you give them free reign ie they can fill their side with foreign mercenaries etc?

No, supplying players that could potentially represent Wales should be part of the remit.

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:What other team?

Well, if a very wealthy man, I don't know, lets pluck one out of the air, lets say, Stan Thomas decided he wanted a crack at putting a pro team together, then the WRU should look at the possibilities of replacing a pro team that is not achieving anything.

Sure. And they should also redesign the pathways to accommodate this?

Where do you think that, say, Sir Stan would get the players from for his team? Maybe the one you've just closed down....

And if there is no Sir Stan, your idea doesn't get off the floor - right?

No 7&1/2 wrote:some off the field improvements (which I assume you haven't thought out).

Yes I have, successful academies producing Welsh talent, better financial structures, better coaching, it should all come within the remit.

PhilBB wrote:And if there is no Sir Stan, your idea doesn't get off the floor - right?

Well no, but what is the plan for RGC1404 ?

Do they have a wealthy backer ? People are calling for a region up there.

The pathways that went from the failed pro team could be taken over by the new pro team.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I wish that was true.

Sorry LP, I worded it wrong, what I meant was the regions could all finish 12th,11th,10th,9th in the league respectively, and not win a single game in Europe, yet they would get the same funding from the WRU and there would be nobody to threaten them into improving.

I know what you meant.

I'd say that's quite hard to produce local talent while trying to improve league placings as well. Presumably though with the Welsh teams working with the WRU as their boss basically they could put more pressure on them to give them access to some of the established Welsh test stars. Could work. Obviously a bit of a risk that a number of Welsh teams underperform and you end up replacing more than 1 a season!

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:And if there is no Sir Stan, your idea doesn't get off the floor - right?

Well no, but what is the plan for RGC1404 ?

Do they have a wealthy backer ? People are calling for a region up there.

The pathways that went from the failed pro team could be taken over by the new pro team.

No, they have no backer.

The pathway could be taken over, yes. And it could be taken over by a team not based in that pathway.

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I wish that was true.

Sorry LP, I worded it wrong, what I meant was the regions could all finish 12th,11th,10th,9th in the league respectively, and not win a single game in Europe, yet they would get the same funding from the WRU and there would be nobody to threaten them into improving.

Payment, not funding.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd say that's quite hard to produce local talent while trying to improve league placings as well. Presumably though with the Welsh teams working with the WRU as their boss basically they could put more pressure on them to give them access to some of the established Welsh test stars. Could work. Obviously a bit of a risk that a number of Welsh teams underperform and you end up replacing more than 1 a season!

You would not do it per season, you would allow them to keep going, assess the situation, if they are still failing, then you have to look at alternatives, that could take a number of seasons. 

But if there is somebody else knocking at the door, at least it would give the teams something to think about.

The WRU seem happy with the "regions" just plodding along with no ambition though

Same goes for the club game. While I know the Welsh Premiership is not the top tier in Wales there seems to be no desire to make it competitive or have any attendances

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I wish that was true.

Sorry LP, I worded it wrong, what I meant was the regions could all finish 12th,11th,10th,9th in the league respectively, and not win a single game in Europe, yet they would get the same funding from the WRU and there would be nobody to threaten them into improving.

Payment, not funding.

OK payment, the point still stands.

Steffan wrote:The WRU seem happy with the "regions" just plodding along with no ambition though

Same goes for the club game. While I know the Welsh Premiership is not the top tier in Wales there seems to be no desire to make it competitive or have any attendances

Wtf? There are significant changes to the WP coming for next season.

PhilBB wrote:

Steffan wrote:The WRU seem happy with the "regions" just plodding along with no ambition though

Same goes for the club game. While I know the Welsh Premiership is not the top tier in Wales there seems to be no desire to make it competitive or have any attendances

Wtf? There are significant changes to the WP coming for next season.

A few more teams and a slightly different structure will not bring the crowds in

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd say that's quite hard to produce local talent while trying to improve league placings as well. Presumably though with the Welsh teams working with the WRU as their boss basically they could put more pressure on them to give them access to some of the established Welsh test stars. Could work. Obviously a bit of a risk that a number of Welsh teams underperform and you end up replacing more than 1 a season!

You would not do it per season, you would allow them to keep going, assess the situation, if they are still failing, then you have to look at alternatives, that could take a number of seasons. 

But if there is somebody else knocking at the door, at least it would give the teams something to think about.

Quite hard to replace a region I would have thought you would presumably have to replace the underperforming side(s) with a team from the same geographical area.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Quite hard to replace a region I would have thought you would presumably have to replace the underperforming side(s) with a team from the same geographical area.

Firstly, I am talking 1 region at a time.

Secondly, the regions are all within 40 miles of each other or closer.

I still want two regions. East Wales and West Wales. East playing out of Cardiff and West playing out of Swansea with as little NWQ players as possible

I'd then move the Premiership to the summer like they do in NZ. Oh and have an 'A' side which could tour in the summer as well for all the players that didn't make the tour. The rest of the players in Wales then at Premiership level got a chance to prove themselves that they deserve a crack at regional rugby

No doubt this idea will get ripped apart by everyone on here but it's just the format I would like to happen

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Quite hard to replace a region I would have thought you would presumably have to replace the underperforming side(s) with a team from the same geographical area.

Firstly, I am talking 1 region at a time.

Secondly, the regions are all within 40 miles of each other or closer.

So strictly speaking they can all underperform they just have to be the least bad. If I were a Welsh fan it may make it hard to find an attachment to a region that may change every few years.

Steffan wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Steffan wrote:The WRU seem happy with the "regions" just plodding along with no ambition though

Same goes for the club game. While I know the Welsh Premiership is not the top tier in Wales there seems to be no desire to make it competitive or have any attendances

Wtf? There are significant changes to the WP coming for next season.

A few more teams and a slightly different structure will not bring the crowds in

But it will make it more competitive.

Crowds won't come in because the standard is poor and the entry fee way too high. People get their rugby via their TV nowadays.

Steffan wrote:I still want two regions. East Wales and West Wales. East playing out of Cardiff and West playing out of Swansea with as little NWQ players as possible

I'd then move the Premiership to the summer like they do in NZ. Oh and have an 'A' side which could tour in the summer as well for all the players that didn't make the tour. The rest of the players in Wales then at Premiership level got a chance to prove themselves that they deserve a crack at regional rugby

No doubt this idea will get ripped apart by everyone on here but it's just the format I would like to happen

Two team model nations don't perform well. If you want to consider Scotland and Italy then you'll see the fundamental flaw in your idea.

On top of that, moving the WP to the summer will mean that squad players in 'East' and 'West' will have nowhere in Wales to play to gain match fitness etc. Furthermore, the youngsters in the Academy of East and West will also have nowhere to play.

The Kiwis don't play rugby in the summer.

As for the players who 'didn't make the tour', if you are using a selection pool of just two teams then that means that everybody towards the top level will play all year round rugby. That's bonkers.

If you have the WP in the summer, no player at that level will play against a professional. Therefore, they will not be able to be measured against players at that level, so who will 'deserve' a crack will not be spotted.

So you'd starve the academy of rugby, you'd ruin the standard of the WP by removing the academy players and 'drop down professionals', you'd limit the selection base to the national team and you'd follow a model that has harmed Scotland and Italy.

All in all, it doesn't stack up - does it?

No 7&1/2 wrote:
So strictly speaking they can all underperform they just have to be the least bad. If I were a Welsh fan it may make it hard to find an attachment to a region that may change every few years.

He's skirting around, hence avoiding, admitting that his idea has no legs as there is no alternative structure able to take over.

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
More ignorance again, have you seen the work being done at the Wern ?

Yes. And I know how much PyS cost.

So it's not ignorance, champ. Come back when it's a 15k stadium that can host conferences, exhibitions and earn income for the 350 days of the year when there's no pro sport being played.

PYS was built from scratch, the Wern needs re-vamping, now I know it is nothing like PYS, but with a little help from the local government like PYS had then yes we could have a nice shiney stadium like that here, there is twice the population in Merthyr than there is in Llanelli, so if they can make it work there, then they could make it work here.

Also, what friggin exhibitions does the Arms Park do to earn money all year around, they are not exactly bursting with function rooms and media rooms there for weddings and disco's and concerts are they ?

There was a classical music concert on the CAP pitch not many moons ago I seem to remember. Built a proper stage and everything. Plus they have massive tented get togethers every 6Ns.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd say that's quite hard to produce local talent while trying to improve league placings as well. Presumably though with the Welsh teams working with the WRU as their boss basically they could put more pressure on them to give them access to some of the established Welsh test stars. Could work. Obviously a bit of a risk that a number of Welsh teams underperform and you end up replacing more than 1 a season!

You would not do it per season, you would allow them to keep going, assess the situation, if they are still failing, then you have to look at alternatives, that could take a number of seasons. 

But if there is somebody else knocking at the door, at least it would give the teams something to think about.

Quite hard to replace a region I would have thought you would presumably have to replace the underperforming side(s) with a team from the same geographical area.

Just like that as Tommy Cooper would say.

Steffan wrote:I still want two regions. East Wales and West Wales. East playing out of Cardiff and West playing out of Swansea with as little NWQ players as possible

I'd then move the Premiership to the summer like they do in NZ. Oh and have an 'A' side which could tour in the summer as well for all the players that didn't make the tour. The rest of the players in Wales then at Premiership level got a chance to prove themselves that they deserve a crack at regional rugby

No doubt this idea will get ripped apart by everyone on here but it's just the format I would like to happen

and called Cardiff most probably. Meh!

GavinDragon wrote:

Steffan wrote:I quite like Cardiff rugby club although the beer is crap and bar staff's ability to serve people in a quick "matchday" fashion is pretty non-existent even when it was only a bunch of Ponty supporters on the day after boxing day match. Plus they hid all the champagne and prawn sandwiches from us. We are not sophisticated enough to appreciate such fine food and alcohol anyway I guess

You should see what it is like at RP's new "family zone" (yes I am hellbent on making this a Dragons' thread David!). They have about 3 staff on for the one fixture a year that we manage to sell out!

Go for it. I'm going off piste too ever so slightly. Not going to mention the Cardiff, Lisvane land deal btw. See what happens.....

Mr Norster, who stepped down as chief executive of the Blues rugby region last year,2011 wrote: “Having lived on the road for more than 20 years, we have together with many other longer-term residents became sadly all too familiar with the ongoing ‘development’ of a special and almost unique part of our city.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/sir-stanley-thomas-among-businessmen-2029002

PhilBB wrote:

Steffan wrote:
At least the service was decent at the Cardiff City Stadium. Another Cardiff Rugby fiasco that went well...

That was about a property deal, nothing to do with the rugby.

Even though that deal failed, thankfully, everything's to do with property deals nowadays in GB. 9% interest is mentioned on Homes Under the Hammer. Not sure the Port Talbot 750 are happy with that.

https://twitter.com/cardiff_blues/status/697826533008916480

Corporate event today raised £20,000 for Owen Williams.

Great stuff

So back to  Merthyr on the Merthyr thread. Top of the table clash this weekend as Swansea come to town, I might go and watch this one.

Might? Shocking.

LordDowlais wrote:So back to  Merthyr on the Merthyr thread. Top of the table clash this weekend as Swansea come to town, I might go and watch this one.

Llanelli in the cup on the 27th Feb.

All eyes on Sardis Road this weekend. 2.30pm tomorrow the battle of the valleys, Pontypridd welcome the mighty Iron men to to Sardis Rd in the Swalec cup. We knocked Llanelli out in the last round, now we move onto Ponty.

Obviously this is the biggest Welsh derby being played this weekend......

LordDowlais wrote:All eyes on Sardis Road this weekend. 2.30pm tomorrow the battle of the valleys, Pontypridd welcome the mighty Iron men to to Sardis Rd in the Swalec cup. We knocked Llanelli out in the last round, now we move onto Ponty.

Obviously this is the biggest Welsh derby being played this weekend......

I will be at the match cheering on da Pont

Got a feeling Ponty will lose to be honest...much to the delight of yourself and other people on here (I feel a 'Merthyr BEAT Ponty at least one decent result this weekend' thread is in the pipeline)

Either way let's hope the match is a good one

There has been a good relationship between Ponty and Merthyr over the years, a lot of players have made the move up, for want of a better phrase. 

This one has got bragging rights written all over it. It will be good to see where Merthyr actually are in the grand scheme of things, we beat Llanelli in the last round at Parc Y Scarlets so lets see how we do tomorrow, let's see how we could manage rubbing shoulders in the Welsh Prem next year.

Merthyr will be fine in the Welsh Premiership. Which is good to see. The more competitive games the better although I will be away next season abroad so will miss most of it. I rate Merthyr's chances tomorrow but either way think it is going to be a close one

Unlucky Merthyr, well done Pontypridd, most of all well done to the fans, 4800 fans turned out in a monsoon to watch a valleys rugby match between two semi pro sides. 

I was at this game and it was more of Merthyr not taking their chances, but hey ho it was a great day out even though I was soaked through. If a match between two semi pro sides can generate such a decent crowd in that weather, and two other matches with fully professional outfits playing each other could only generate a few hundred more, then that more than says a lot about the interest that the Pro12 is pulling from the Welsh public at the moment. 

The Welsh public do not want to watch Treviso, Zebre, Edinburgh, Connacht, Glasgow et al. The interest is with Welsh teams playing each other, like the crowd that was at the Liberty on Saturday, and the crowd that will be at Rodney Parade on Friday night, and the double header at the PS.

When are we going to learn that the Pro12 is not generating enough interest in Wales ?

Lord, how much of the Merthyr v Ponty crowd was down to it being a novelty? I mean when was the last time they played each other in any meaningful match? Are crowds like that happening in any other Welsh Prem or Principality Cup on a regular basis? One swallow does not a summer make.