Merthyr RFC set to become new force in Welsh Rugby

First topic message reminder :

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/merthyr-rfc-set-become-new-9377183

Thoughts?

I am surprised you are the first nibble I got with that post SS. 

But on a serious note, we will see next season when this is a regular fixture. But my point still stands, if the Welsh derbies in the Pro12 can attract crowds of 10,000+ yet when other teams come to town we only get half that amount then it is plainly obvious that the Welsh public will not turn out to watch teams from Italy/Ireland/Scotland.

Lord, it wasn't meant as a bite. I am just trying to get out there that you can't base a blooming future based on the gates of a game that has a huge novelty factor. I am pretty confident going on other welsh prem and principality attendances, the Merthyr v Ponty can game was more of a 'freak' attendance, and I would not expect to see another semi-pro attendance anywhere near that again this season.

Also, as I am sure you are away traveling fans make a huge difference to attendances. If you look at a regional derby crowd you will see large numbers of away fans, if you look at a normal pro12 match you will see probably no more than 100-250 away fans (ignore how the cameras always seem to make it seem like loads).

However, the weekends result I think Merthyr will be a real force in the welsh prem. I don't think they are going to look out of place at all (well maybe look a bit too good).

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Also, as I am sure you are away traveling fans make a huge difference to attendances. If you look at a regional derby crowd you will see large numbers of away fans, if you look at a normal pro12 match you will see probably no more than 100-250 away fans (ignore how the cameras always seem to make it seem like loads). 

That's the point I am alluring to SS. Look at the crowds the Welsh derbies get in the Pro12, surely we should be using this as a marker as to what other Welsh derbies could potentially get. 

Nobody wants to watch teams from Ireland and Scotland and mostly Italy. I would imagine a top flight game between Ponty and Cardiff would attract a large crowd, as would Ebbw Vale and Newport. I would like to see a top flight Welsh prem of about 8 or 10 teams with relegation and Promotion.

LordDowlais wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Also, as I am sure you are away traveling fans make a huge difference to attendances. If you look at a regional derby crowd you will see large numbers of away fans, if you look at a normal pro12 match you will see probably no more than 100-250 away fans (ignore how the cameras always seem to make it seem like loads). 

That's the point I am alluring to SS. Look at the crowds the Welsh derbies get in the Pro12, surely we should be using this as a marker as to what other Welsh derbies could potentially get. 

Nobody wants to watch teams from Ireland and Scotland and mostly Italy. I would imagine a top flight game between Ponty and Cardiff would attract a large crowd, as would Ebbw Vale and Newport. I would like to see a top flight Welsh prem of about 8 or 10 teams with relegation and Promotion.

Think your missing my point. The amount of home supporters is pretty much the same for derbies, big HEC/RCC games and Treviso. It is the away support that makes the difference. I has nothing to do with the fans not wanting to watch the Italians but more to do with the Italians don't want a 4 1/2 hour plane journey to watch a league game. Truth is if you add up all the regional and welsh prem home support attendances only, then divide them by 4 or 5 (the amount of games a week in a 8/10 team league) the attendances would be poop poor, I would even say far poorer if it is two poor teams playing each other.

No I am not missing the point, perhaps I did not explain myself properly. I'll try again.

The Welsh derbies get the most Welsh fans involved. We always see 10,000+ people turn out for a Welsh derby, that is because the away fans will turn up as well. What this tells me is, that if we had a top flight league of 8 teams, or an east and west conference of 4 teams a piece where the top two teams from each conference play each other in the semi finals (judgement day) then a final at the end of the season, then perhaps we could get better average attendances across the board.

I think that the WRU are now in a position, money wise, where they can support this, the Welsh public will be in love with rugby again and all the hassle we have now will be gone.

In an ideal world I would love a return to a pro Welsh league. However, we struggle to compete with 4 teams (on a European stage). I can't see how they could fund 8 to be competitive. You'd also need to find 4 more backers as the wru don't fund the regions in entirety, and these don't grow on trees.

10,000 per derby game with 2 regions, so 20,000 across the 4 regions
Have I got your concept correct LD
8 teams  = 4 games per weekend
So 20,.000 fans per 4 games =- 5.000 a game

Option A – Standard 8 team League
14 regular season games (7 home league games a season = 35k / 40k Home Attendance PER SEASON
Semi-Final
Final

OPTION B - Conferences
6 regular season games (3 home games per team = 15k / 20k Home Attendance PER SEASON
Semi-Final
Final

I can’t see the viability of either option - particularly Option 2.
Would there be 'other' fixtures to pad the season out
The much-maligned Dragons, have had a total of 46, 296  through the gate for home league games and have still to play the Ospreys and Scarlets at ‘home’

(NB – don’t use Judgement day as everyday example of a derby – it’s a one-off per season £10 for 2 games, day out in Cardiff …etc)

PenfroPete wrote:10,000 per derby game with 2 regions, so 20,000 across the 4 regions
Have I got your concept correct LD
8 teams  = 4 games per weekend
So 20,.000 fans per 4 games =- 5.000 a game

No, what I am saying is, that if the current top flight Welsh teams (Pro12) can generate 10,000 plus per game, perhaps if the top flight was all Welsh teams, then perhaps with home and away fans we could see more games with that type of fan turnout. 

I would imagine that Pontypridd V Cardiff would have that attendance home and away, so would Ebbw Vale V Newport ect. 

I reckon, a match between Merthyr and Cardiff in a top flight Welsh league would attract more people through the turnstiles  than Cardiff Blues V Edinburgh/Glasgow/Treviso/Zebre would.

I do like the idea of a welsh league but the product would be poor. We currently have 4 regions and 3 are in the lower half of the Pro12. Speading our resources into 8 teams just dilutes the quality.

Personally, I'd rather join the English and beg them join their league.

LordDowlais wrote:

PenfroPete wrote:10,000 per derby game with 2 regions, so 20,000 across the 4 regions
Have I got your concept correct LD
8 teams  = 4 games per weekend
So 20,.000 fans per 4 games =- 5.000 a game

No, what I am saying is, that if the current top flight Welsh teams (Pro12) can generate 10,000 plus per game, perhaps if the top flight was all Welsh teams, then perhaps with home and away fans we could see more games with that type of fan turnout. 

I would imagine that Pontypridd V Cardiff would have that attendance home and away, so would Ebbw Vale V Newport ect. 

I reckon, a match between Merthyr and Cardiff in a top flight Welsh league would attract more people through the turnstiles  than Cardiff Blues V Edinburgh/Glasgow/Treviso/Zebre would.

But you wouldn't. The majority of people who attend Blues games would only attend Cardiff games. The majority of Dragons fans would turn up to Newport games, with a lesser amount turning up to watch Cross Keys. The bulk of Scarlets fans would turn out for Llanelli games only, with the rest split between Carmarthen Quins. And (if we are to believe the press) the Ospreys fans would be evenly split between Swansea, Neath and Bridgend. So we would only see gate on a par with the regional derby games when we have Llanelli, or Cardiff, or Newport playing against each other. Then we would have an average regional attendance (7-8k ish) for games like Cardiff v Ponty, or Swansea v Llanelli. And we would have very poor attendances (current welsh prem) for games like Carmarthen Quins v Cross Keys.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:But you wouldn't. The majority of people who attend Blues games would only attend Cardiff games. The majority of Dragons fans would turn up to Newport games, with a lesser amount turning up to watch Cross Keys. The bulk of Scarlets fans would turn out for Llanelli games only, with the rest split between Carmarthen Quins. And (if we are to believe the press) the Ospreys fans would be evenly split between Swansea, Neath and Bridgend. So we would only see gate on a par with the regional derby games when we have Llanelli, or Cardiff, or Newport playing against each other. Then we would have an average regional attendance (7-8k ish) for games like Cardiff v Ponty, or Swansea v Llanelli. And we would have very poor attendances (current welsh prem) for games like Carmarthen Quins v Cross Keys.

Well we all know that, that, is a load of bull. There were 4800 people in Sardis Road on Saturday, that's 4800 that were/are not paying to go and watch their region. So if we split that in half, and say 2400 of those fans were from Pontypridd, I bet the majority of them would travel down to Cardiff to watch a top flight game between Ponty and Cardiff. 

That would be a lot more away fans than ANY team from the Pro12 would take to Cardiff.

Fair enough, I think this is one of those ones where there is logic to both sides of the debate, but neither side is going to concede ground mate.

Yeah, I know that SS, we are where we are and we need to try and make that work. I will be honest, I would be disappointed to see the back of the Pro12, but I do not see a future in it either, not unless a hell of a lot of changes are made.

And all our best players will go to play in mega bucks England and France...

PenfroPete wrote:The much-maligned Dragons, have had a total of 46, 296  through the gate for home league games and have still to play the Ospreys and Scarlets at ‘home’

That has a ring to it. Maybe they should change the name to that, seeing as the 'Newport Gwent' bit causes so much squabbling.

LordDowlais wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:But you wouldn't. The majority of people who attend Blues games would only attend Cardiff games. The majority of Dragons fans would turn up to Newport games, with a lesser amount turning up to watch Cross Keys. The bulk of Scarlets fans would turn out for Llanelli games only, with the rest split between Carmarthen Quins. And (if we are to believe the press) the Ospreys fans would be evenly split between Swansea, Neath and Bridgend. So we would only see gate on a par with the regional derby games when we have Llanelli, or Cardiff, or Newport playing against each other. Then we would have an average regional attendance (7-8k ish) for games like Cardiff v Ponty, or Swansea v Llanelli. And we would have very poor attendances (current welsh prem) for games like Carmarthen Quins v Cross Keys.

Well we all know that, that, is a load of bull. There were 4800 people in Sardis Road on Saturday, that's 4800 that were/are not paying to go and watch their region. So if we split that in half, and say 2400 of those fans were from Pontypridd, I bet the majority of them would travel down to Cardiff to watch a top flight game between Ponty and Cardiff. 

That would be a lot more away fans than ANY team from the Pro12 would take to Cardiff.

Ignoring most of your unsubstantiated stuff again, can you tell me how you can say for definite every one of the "4800" crowd chose to watch that over their region? The only game on the same day was Ospreys v Scarlets, so how do you know every one of the "4800" didn't go watch Cardiff on Friday (I think), or NGD on Sunday? Going to have to pull you up on posting things without proof again there, sorry.

RiscaGame wrote:Ignoring most of your unsubstantiated stuff again, can you tell me how you can say for definite every one of the "4800" crowd chose to watch that over their region? The only game on the same day was Ospreys v Scarlets, so how do you know every one of the "4800" didn't go watch Cardiff on Friday (I think), or NGD on Sunday? Going to have to pull you up on posting things without proof again there, sorry.

So you reckon the Pontypridd half of the support also go and watch Cardiff Blues ? Yeah, rightio.

True Raven wrote:I do like the idea of a welsh league but the product would be poor.  We currently have 4 regions and 3 are in the lower half of the Pro12.  Speading our resources into 8 teams just dilutes the quality.  

Personally, I'd rather join the English and beg them join their league.

And languish in the second division? While I don't see much difference in quality in the top of the pro 12 and AP the bottom of the AP is generally tougher.

No prl club is going to allow the welsh into the top division immediately as they would be voting for their own relegation. So welsh teams would have to start in the second tier or below and fight for promotion which on current form would be very difficult for most.

Lets get a decent Euro league going

munkian wrote:Lets get a decent Euro league going

. Going back to the beginnings of professionalism a euro league was mooted - but as the english and french would not join the pro 12 happened instead. There is no chance whatsoever of a euro league as it would mean some french and English teams who are in the top tier now being in a second tier.

Merthyr are up.

Just two places left up for grabs now between, Pontypool, Bargoed and RGC.

LordDowlais wrote:Merthyr are up.

Just two places left up for grabs now between, Pontypool, Bargoed and RGC.

I hope Pooler go up. Always liked Pooler plus I know one of the props

Be good for RGC to get up there. A nice trip out for travelling fans as well

I kind of feel for Bargoed. They were clearly not on the WRUs plans. Welcome to Welsh rugby though

If RGC finish outside the top four, they'll have to suffer.

LordDowlais wrote:

Well we all know that, that, is a load of bull. There were 4800 people in Sardis Road on Saturday, that's 4800 that were/are not paying to go and watch their region. So if we split that in half, and say 2400 of those fans were from Pontypridd, I bet the majority of them would travel down to Cardiff to watch a top flight game between Ponty and Cardiff. 

That would be a lot more away fans than ANY team from the Pro12 would take to Cardiff.

Just to add some context, Pontypridd played Cardiff the week before they played Merthyr.

The announced (i.e. fabricated) crowd was 550.

That may well blow an enormous hole in your logic.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Well we all know that, that, is a load of bull. There were 4800 people in Sardis Road on Saturday, that's 4800 that were/are not paying to go and watch their region. So if we split that in half, and say 2400 of those fans were from Pontypridd, I bet the majority of them would travel down to Cardiff to watch a top flight game between Ponty and Cardiff. 

That would be a lot more away fans than ANY team from the Pro12 would take to Cardiff.

Just to add some context, Pontypridd played Cardiff the week before they played Merthyr.

The announced (i.e. fabricated) crowd was 550.

That may well blow an enormous hole in your logic.

Ah well, Merthyr must have taken 4250 fans to Ponty with them then.

LordDowlais wrote:
Ah well, Merthyr must have taken 4250 fans to Ponty with them then.

Or that there is a large desire for one off local derby games where tickets were £10, kids went free and the 'official attendance' is a work of pure fiction.

So, all in all, nothing like pro rugby.

Your idea above, and your maths, seem reminiscent of rugby 2001-2. It doesn't tell us how to ensure our professional rugby teams run businesses turning over £10m+ per annum.

https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2016/04/08/the-cost-of-professional-rugby/ <--- that might help you realise where you're going wrong.

It's OK phill, Sir Stan will just pay for it out of the loose change in his inside top left pocket. It could be a tax right off mun.

LordDowlais wrote:It's OK phill, Sir Stan will just pay for it out of the loose change in his inside top left pocket. It could be a tax right off mun.

I drove past 'The Wern' about three weeks ago.

Bloody hell.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:It's OK phill, Sir Stan will just pay for it out of the loose change in his inside top left pocket. It could be a tax right off mun.

I drove past 'The Wern' about three weeks ago.

Bloody hell.

Stop lying. Your a liar. Why would you drive past the Wern ? 

Where were you going ? You cannot drive past the Wern. You can drive to and from the Wern, but you cannot drive past it.

Again you have been shown to be the fraud you are. Full of crap, and you think nothing exists outside of Cardiff.

LordDowlais wrote:

Stop lying. Your a liar. Why would you drive past the Wern ? 

Where were you going ? You cannot drive past the Wern. You can drive to and from the Wern, but you cannot drive past it.

Again you have been shown to be the fraud you are. Full of crap, and you think nothing exists outside of Cardiff.

I drove past it, did a u-turn into the little housing estate beyond it on the left hand side in front of the training pitch, to see what it looked like as I've never been there before.

I was surprised by the state of the training pitch and the solitary scrum machine left underneath the lights. The breeze block 'stand' behind the posts that back on to the road look like a urinal. As I drove beyond the club house at the bottom of the hill, up around and the bend and beyond the estate, I realised that this wasn't quite like entering Toulon's ground.

Sorry to have to disprove you. Again.

Google maps seems to agree with you. Sure Dowlais is right again though.

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:It's OK phill, Sir Stan will just pay for it out of the loose change in his inside top left pocket. It could be a tax right off mun.

I drove past 'The Wern' about three weeks ago.

Bloody hell.

Stop lying. Your a liar. Why would you drive past the Wern ? 

Where were you going ? You cannot drive past the Wern. You can drive to and from the Wern, but you cannot drive past it.

Again you have been shown to be the fraud you are. Full of crap, and you think nothing exists outside of Cardiff.

Sounds like the road to hell

RiscaGame wrote:Google maps seems to agree with you. Sure Dowlais is right again though.

I'll take a picture next time I do it, just to appease the ever so confused LD.

Suffice to say, that place ain't ever hosting a full time pro rugby team at any kind of level above sh1tpatch.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Stop lying. Your a liar. Why would you drive past the Wern ? 

Where were you going ? You cannot drive past the Wern. You can drive to and from the Wern, but you cannot drive past it.

Again you have been shown to be the fraud you are. Full of crap, and you think nothing exists outside of Cardiff.

I drove past it, did a u-turn into the little housing estate beyond it on the left hand side in front of the training pitch, to see what it looked like as I've never been there before.

I was surprised by the state of the training pitch and the solitary scrum machine left underneath the lights. The breeze block 'stand' behind the posts that back on to the road look like a urinal. As I drove beyond the club house at the bottom of the hill, up around and the bend and beyond the estate, I realised that this wasn't quite like entering Toulon's ground.

Sorry to have to disprove you. Again.

So you drove all the way up to Merthyr just to have a look at the rugby pitch ? Yeh, righto.

PhilBB wrote:I drove past it, did a u-turn into the little housing estate beyond it on the left hand side in front of the training pitch, to see what it looked like as I've never been there before. 

Phill your full of crap. The little housing estate as you put it, is not just beyond it. FFS. You have just looked at google maps and made your own mind up.

You have changed your story from driving past it, to actually going there to see it. You are a liar.

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Stop lying. Your a liar. Why would you drive past the Wern ? 

Where were you going ? You cannot drive past the Wern. You can drive to and from the Wern, but you cannot drive past it.

Again you have been shown to be the fraud you are. Full of crap, and you think nothing exists outside of Cardiff.

I drove past it, did a u-turn into the little housing estate beyond it on the left hand side in front of the training pitch, to see what it looked like as I've never been there before.

I was surprised by the state of the training pitch and the solitary scrum machine left underneath the lights. The breeze block 'stand' behind the posts that back on to the road look like a urinal. As I drove beyond the club house at the bottom of the hill, up around and the bend and beyond the estate, I realised that this wasn't quite like entering Toulon's ground.

Sorry to have to disprove you. Again.

So you drove all the way up to Merthyr just to have a look at the rugby pitch ? Yeh, righto.

What's so strange about that? You were saying the other day you expect 4500 rugby fans to do that on on a weekly basis

OK Phill, enlighten me. How many rugby pitches did you see when you went to visit the Wern ?

LordDowlais wrote:
So you drove all the way up to Merthyr just to have a look at the rugby pitch ? Yeh, righto.

No, I was in Merthyr for the Soar Theatre. I saw the sign for the rugby club as I went around the one way system so took a two minute diversion.

Again, sorry to make you look a little bit silly. Again.

Stone Motif wrote:What's so strange about that? You were saying the other day you expect 4500 rugby fans to do that on on a weekly basis

No I was saying that there will be people going there to watch a rugby match. Not to drive up there to have a look at the rugby ground to get one upmanship on an internet forum.

LordDowlais wrote:
Phill your full of crap. The little housing estate as you put it, is not just beyond it. FFS. You have just looked at google maps and made your own mind up.

You have changed your story from driving past it, to actually going there to see it. You are a liar.

You have to drive past it to turn around to come back down the hill.

The housing estate is beyond the ground as its opposite the training pitch.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
So you drove all the way up to Merthyr just to have a look at the rugby pitch ? Yeh, righto.

No, I was in Merthyr for the Soar Theatre. I saw the sign for the rugby club as I went around the one way system so took a two minute diversion.

Again, sorry to make you look a little bit silly. Again.

Phill if you were there your story would hold a lot more credence than what you are spouting. The housing estate as you put it is far from little and you would not have to enter it to turn around, also what you are describing sounds a lot like the pictures that are on google maps, that are about ten years old.

LordDowlais wrote:OK Phill, enlighten me. How many rugby pitches did you see when you went to visit the Wern ?

I didn't visit it, I spent two minutes driving past it and then returning on myself to go back down the hill.

I saw what looked like the main pitch and a training pitch next door. Opposite the training pitch was a new build house that had a rugby affiliated name.

Mate, why are you so tetchy about this? Anybody can drive to a rugby ground any time they like. I was in Merthyr yesterday morning, again, on business. It's not uncommon, you know.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
Phill your full of crap. The little housing estate as you put it, is not just beyond it. FFS. You have just looked at google maps and made your own mind up.

You have changed your story from driving past it, to actually going there to see it. You are a liar.

You have to drive past it to turn around to come back down the hill.

The housing estate is beyond the ground as its opposite the training pitch.

So you've changed your story again from beyond to opposite.

Like I said, google maps is about 10yrs out of date.

LordDowlais wrote:Phill if you were there your story would hold a lot more credence than what you are spouting. The housing estate as you put it is far from little and you would not have to enter it to turn around, also what you are describing sounds a lot like the pictures that are on google maps, that are about ten years old.

The new houses looked like a little estate as I reversed into the road to come back on myself.

The ground looked a lot older than 10 years, too.

LordDowlais wrote:

So you've changed your story again from beyond to opposite.

Like I said, google maps is about 10yrs out of date.

It can be beyond and opposite, as there is the road you drive along that the urinal looking stand backs on to.

I drove past on March 19th, 2016, if that helps.

LordDowlais wrote:
No I was saying that there will be people going there to watch a rugby match. Not to drive up there to have a look at the rugby ground to get one upmanship on an internet forum.

How could anybody gain one upmanship from driving to a rugby ground? I mean, that's a crazy thought process you're showing.

It's Merthyr's ground. It's a dump. It's not suitable for elite rugby. What's controversial about that?

Anyway, despite what the guru of rugby that is PhilBB always has to spout, perhaps you might want to listen to what Stan Thomas is saying. The work on the Wern is constantly on-going:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/make-every-welsh-premiership-club-11156314


As the saying goes, Rome was not built in a day.

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway, despite what the guru of rugby that is PhilBB, perhaps you might want to listen to what Stan Thomas is saying. The work on the Wern is constantly on-going:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/make-every-welsh-premiership-club-11156314


As the saying goes, Rome was not built in a day.

You realise that it can't hold elite rugby though, yes? It can't sustain the footfall at that location.

If he wants his team to play elite pro rugby, it will have to be at a new venue.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway, despite what the guru of rugby that is PhilBB, perhaps you might want to listen to what Stan Thomas is saying. The work on the Wern is constantly on-going:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/make-every-welsh-premiership-club-11156314


As the saying goes, Rome was not built in a day.

You realise that it can't hold elite rugby though, yes? It can't sustain the footfall at that location.

If he wants his team to play elite pro rugby, it will have to be at a new venue.

Why ?

It might not be able to hold elite rugby now, but why can't the Wern be improved so that it CAN hold elite rugby ?

LordDowlais wrote:

It might not be able to hold elite rugby now, but why can't the Wern be improved so that it CAN hold elite rugby ?

The land mass is too small. The access is awful. It cannot host the infrastructure required for 10,000+ people.