Rugby Champions Cup 2015-16 - Tiers

Early days I know to be thinking about the RCC for 2015-16 with the Top 14 still not passed through the semi final stage, but as things stand this seems how the four tiers will work out:

Tier 1 – Glasgow, Saracens, Winner Top14 final, one of Munster/Bath/Loser Top 14 final, one of Munster/Bath/Loser Top 14 final

Tier 2 – one of Munster/Bath/Loser Top 14 final, Ospreys, Northampton, better Top 14 losing SF, one of Ulster/Leicester/worse Top 14 losing SF

Tier 3 - one of Ulster/Leicester/worse Top 14 losing SF, one of Ulster/Leicester/worse Top 14 losing SF, Leinster, Exeter, Racing Metro

Tier 4 – Scarlets, Wasps, Oyonnax, Treviso, Bordeaux

For Tiers 1 and 2, anybody know how the two from Munster, Bath and the losing Top 14 finalist who will go into Tier 1 and the one from that group who will go into Tier 2 will be picked - do they pick them out of a hat or what?.  Likewise for Tier 2 and 3, do they pick one from Ulster, Leicester and the worse Top 14 semi-finalist  to go into Tier 2 and the two others go into Tier 3.

From a Leinster point of view we're paying for our sh1te season and could potentially face the Top 14 winner - presume it'll be Toulon of Clermont, Bath and Scarlets - not a nice prospect.  Alternatively we could face Saracens, Northampton and Treviso - not easy but certainly more palatable. Quite happy to be in same tier as Exeter - wouldn't fancy playing them.  

Lots of permutations for all you fans of the other 19 teams to contemplate

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Edit: Draw has now been made for both competitions and the pools look like this:

2015/16 Champions Cup pools

Pool 1: Saracens, Ulster Rugby, Toulouse, Oyonnax
Pool 2: ASM Clermont Auvergne, Ospreys, Exeter Chiefs, Bordeaux-Bègles
Pool 3: Glasgow Warriors, Northampton Saints, Racing 92, Scarlets
Pool 4: Stade Français Rugby, Munster Rugby, Leicester Tigers, Benetton Treviso
Pool 5: Bath Rugby, RC Toulon, Leinster Rugby, Wasps

2015/16 Challenge Cup pools

Pool 1: Connacht Rugby, Brive, Newcastle Falcons, Eniset-STM
Pool 2: Sale Sharks, Newport Gwent Dragons, Castres Olympique, Pau
Pool 3: Montpellier, Harlequins, Cardiff Blues, Cammi Rugby Calvisano
Pool 4: La Rochelle, Gloucester Rugby, Zebre Rugby, Worcester Warriors
Pool 5: Edinburgh Rugby, London Irish, Grenoble, Agen

I though they had got rid of the tiers other than the winners of the 3 leagues being separated.

Northampton are the top seeds from England.

http://live.epcrugby.com/eng/draw-explained.php

Explains the process they went through for competition just finished.

LondonTiger wrote:Northampton are the top seeds from England.

That's not what I understand.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Northampton are the top seeds from England.

That's not what I understand.

If they follow the same process as they did for competition just finished, English seeding is based purely on AP finishing position, not play-offs. From the link I attached:

For the purposes of the pool draw, the Aviva Premiership clubs are ranked according to their finishing positions in the League table, so Saracens are top seeds with Northampton Saints ranked number two.

LondonTiger wrote:

If they follow the same process as they did for competition just finished............

I think that's where you're going wrong.

It woudl appear you are correct. At the behest of Mr Wray's Lawyers the process which last year favoured Sarries has been changed to this year - well favour Sarries.

LondonTiger wrote:It woudl appear you are correct. At the behest of Mr Wray's Lawyers the process which last year favoured Sarries has been changed to this year - well favour Sarries.

Yup.

I'm hoping we get some fresh match ups this year. Exeter v Munster, Saracens v Glasgow, Ospreys v Wasps, Leinster v Leicester, Toulon v Bath for example. Not sure how likely with the seedings mind.

Probably end up with Ulster v Leicester, Ospreys v Treviso and Clermont v Munster. Again.

If those tiers are correct then Wasps (if they continue their upward trajectory) are going to be a nasty Tier 4 side to draw in one pool.

Londontiger it didn't favour Saracens this season.

Arguably the toughest pool - Clermont,Munster,Sale and Saracens.

Saints had the easiest pool.

Tiers don't really mean much.

Some sides have more European experience than others.

MichealT it's a shame but Saracens vs Glasgow can't happen.

Will be interesting to see if Glasgow can kick on from their Pro12 win and perform in the ERCC next year.

Bordeaux will be a lovely trip for somebody. I don't think the Ospreys can get them though.

beshocked wrote:Tiers don't really mean much.

beshocked wrote: MichealT it's a shame but Saracens vs Glasgow can't happen.

They do mean something when they limit who can play each other in the group stages. It is a shame, and why this competition should have a random draw. If you're good enough you will win.

Anyone know when the draw happens - its usually June sometime.

MichaelT wrote:

beshocked wrote:Tiers don't really mean much.

beshocked wrote: MichealT it's a shame but Saracens vs Glasgow can't happen.

They do mean something when they limit who can play each other in the group stages. It is a shame, and why this competition should have a random draw. If you're good enough you will win.

Anyone know when the draw happens - its usually June sometime.

You can't have a random draw or you could end up with Clermont, Toulon, Toulouse, Bordeaux. Hardly European.

Chunky Norwich wrote:You can't have a random draw or you could end up with Clermont, Toulon, Toulouse, Bordeaux. Hardly European.

I was referring to having it as an FA Cup style random draw with straight knock out rounds from the start. Giant killings would then be possible to those that say they are now missing, you would also free weekends to reduce player game time. This would include every team from every league.

European rugby is not big enough/ doesn't have enough variety to try to copy the Champions League in football. Sooner this is realised the better.

Chunky Norwich wrote:You can't have a random draw or you could end up with Clermont, Toulon, Toulouse, Bordeaux. Hardly European.

The way the CC is set-up now you are more than likely to get English v English or French v French or English v French. There is no where near the variety that they had in it's old format, it's a shame really as it will just kill the whole competition in the end.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:You can't have a random draw or you could end up with Clermont, Toulon, Toulouse, Bordeaux. Hardly European.

The way the CC is set-up now you are more than likely to get English v English or French v French or English v French. There is no where near the variety that they had in it's old format, it's a shame really as it will just kill the whole competition in the end.

That' because there's more English ad French teams. A random draw would solve nothing, and also decreases the incentives for teams to finish higher up their leagues.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:You can't have a random draw or you could end up with Clermont, Toulon, Toulouse, Bordeaux. Hardly European.

The way the CC is set-up now you are more than likely to get English v English or French v French or English v French. There is no where near the variety that they had in it's old format, it's a shame really as it will just kill the whole competition in the end.

That' because there's more English ad French teams. A random draw would solve nothing, and also decreases the incentives for teams to finish higher up their leagues.

The whole tournament is rubbish now for my liking, we should all concentrate on our leagues and make them better, the CC has lost it's shine.

beshocked wrote:Londontiger it didn't favour Saracens this season.

Arguably the toughest pool - Clermont,Munster,Sale and Saracens.

Saints had the easiest pool.

Tiers don't really mean much.

Some sides have more European experience than others.

MichealT it's a shame but Saracens vs Glasgow can't happen.

Will be interesting to see if Glasgow can kick on from their Pro12 win and perform in the ERCC next year.

I suspect that Toulon, Ulster and Leicester probably disagree.... wasn't that called the Group Of Death? Must have been for a reason....

LordDowlais wrote:

The whole tournament is rubbish now for my liking, we should all concentrate on our leagues and make them better, the CC has lost it's shine.

Perhaps. But that has nothing to do with it's reboot into the RCC instead of the Heineken Cup. The inexorable march of the French teams and their power/money, and the will of the English to hang on to their coat tails means that this was always going to happen no matter what. This is whay a domestic competition revamp is now so crucial, or rugby in the Nortehrn Hem will truly be on it's bottom, with a 2 tier pro game and a two tier 6 nations.

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:You can't have a random draw or you could end up with Clermont, Toulon, Toulouse, Bordeaux. Hardly European.

The way the CC is set-up now you are more than likely to get English v English or French v French or English v French. There is no where near the variety that they had in it's old format, it's a shame really as it will just kill the whole competition in the end.

Is this really true? Remember comparing to last year when there were a similar amount of teams from the same league playing each other.

Jimpy wrote:

beshocked wrote:Londontiger it didn't favour Saracens this season.

Arguably the toughest pool - Clermont,Munster,Sale and Saracens.

Saints had the easiest pool.

Tiers don't really mean much.

Some sides have more European experience than others.

MichealT it's a shame but Saracens vs Glasgow can't happen.

Will be interesting to see if Glasgow can kick on from their Pro12 win and perform in the ERCC next year.

I suspect that Toulon, Ulster and Leicester probably disagree.... wasn't that called the Group Of Death? Must have been for a reason....

I'm sure there was someone else in that group.

Chunky Norwich wrote:A random draw would solve nothing, and also decreases the incentives for teams to finish higher up their leagues.

Should the incentive not be to try to win the league? To play your best every week? Also with relegation in England and France that is an incentive to finish higher up.

Plus, and someone will have to confirm this as I don't know, do you get prize money based on your final standing in the league or not? In any of the three main leagues?

MichaelT wrote:

Should the incentive not be to try to win the league? To play your best every week? Also with relegation in England and France that is an incentive to finish higher up.

Err, yes. That's the point I was making.

Is it just me or is the focus lost from the european cup now?

Now that qualification has become the driving force noone seems to care what happens within the competition itself, it all seems to be about requalifying for next year first and foremost, and well if you happen to get a lucky win against the French powerhouses then take it seriously.

The French teams in recent seasons threw the competition at the earliest opportunity, why would the Rabo and English teams not do the same this time around?

This year was particularly interesting, I was hoping for some superb rugby, and was not let down at all, but I think the superb rugby was too scarce and diluted into a lot of French v French stalemates, and dead rubbers.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

beshocked wrote:Londontiger it didn't favour Saracens this season.

Arguably the toughest pool - Clermont,Munster,Sale and Saracens.

Saints had the easiest pool.

Tiers don't really mean much.

Some sides have more European experience than others.

MichealT it's a shame but Saracens vs Glasgow can't happen.

Will be interesting to see if Glasgow can kick on from their Pro12 win and perform in the ERCC next year.

I suspect that Toulon, Ulster and Leicester probably disagree.... wasn't that called the Group Of Death? Must have been for a reason....

I'm sure there was someone else in that group.

No team of any real significance....although Leicester would probably argue on that point too.....

Jimpy wrote:

No team of any real significance

That's true. The Celtic teams are just fodder in Europe now.

Fanster wrote:I think the superb rugby was too scarce and diluted into a lot of French v French stalemates, and dead rubbers.

This 100%, this is what the new CC has now become. Also, do not get me started on the second tier comp.

I was pretty dissapointed by the 2nd tier competition this year, the semi's and final were very low quality.

The 2nd tier competition has nothing to play for, whatsoever.

Wasn't it meant to strengthen and bring the uality up?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

MichaelT wrote:

Should the incentive not be to try to win the league? To play your best every week? Also with relegation in England and France that is an incentive to finish higher up.

Err, yes. That's the point I was making.

The way you said reduces incentives came across as theres no point in trying. So no, you didn't make the same point.

MichaelT wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

MichaelT wrote:

Should the incentive not be to try to win the league? To play your best every week? Also with relegation in England and France that is an incentive to finish higher up.

Err, yes. That's the point I was making.

The way you said reduces incentives came across as theres no point in trying. So no, you didn't make the same point.

ok

LordDowlais wrote:

Fanster wrote:I think the superb rugby was too scarce and diluted into a lot of French v French stalemates, and dead rubbers.

This 100%, this is what the new CC has now become. Also, do not get me started on the second tier comp.

By "a lot", you mean the two pool games between Montpellier and Toulouse, and the Final - 3 games out of 67 were French v French. Which ones were the stalemates?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

No team of any real significance

That's true. The Celtic teams are just fodder in Europe now.

You must have missed Leinster just missing out on a final place after their narrow defeat away to Toulon. If you think their fodder then you would agree that AP are also fodder, no doubt.

Apologies maybe I didn't make myself clear, I didn't mean just French v French stalemates, I meant stalemates involving French teams.

I remember watching both Castres and Montpellier losing home and away games without any real fight in them whatsoever, If you ask me Zebre were as much to the competition as they were this season. Although Treviso were pretty dire this year.

Even the mighty Tolouse were poor because they had no interest come round 4.

Not that it was solely the French teams, there were a worrying amount of 50/60 point wins come round 5 or 6, meaning there were a very small set of fans engaged by then, it seems like the competition will be challeneged year in year out by the same 5/6 clubs who can afford to compete on both fronts, which for me is not very interesting.

hadn't Toulouse won 4 out of 4 after the 4th round? Funny how people twist reality to fit their views

Fanster wrote:
Even the mighty Tolouse were poor because they had no interest come round 4.

Why would Toulouse have no interest by Round 5 (I think that's the one you mean) given that they had won the first 4 rounds? They were smashed in Round 5 by a rampant Bath. They hadn't given up. They somehow managed to lose to Montpelier (a win would have seen them get a home semi-final). They were never out of the running until the very end of the final game.

Edited post: as HoT says they had won the first 4 rounds before losing to Bath.


Also, I'd look up the term stalemate

Are we allowed to say  yet?

Fanster wrote:Apologies maybe I didn't make myself clear, I didn't mean just French v French stalemates, I meant stalemates involving French teams.

I remember watching both Castres and Montpellier losing home and away games without any real fight in them whatsoever, If you ask me Zebre were as much to the competition as they were this season. Although Treviso were pretty dire this year.

Even the mighty Tolouse were poor because they had no interest come round 4.

Not that it was solely the French teams, there were a worrying amount of 50/60 point wins come round 5 or 6, meaning there were a very small set of fans engaged by then, it seems like the competition will be challeneged year in year out by the same 5/6 clubs who can afford to compete on both fronts, which for me is not very interesting.

Perhaps a bit early to be making conclusions after just one edition of the Champions Cup, but there were just 4 of this years semifinalists who had qualified for the last HC knockouts, compared to 6 between 2012/13 and 2013/14. If there is any obvious conclusion to be made, it's that the Champions Cup is 25% more open than HC.

Munchkin wrote:
You must have missed Leinster just missing out on a final place after their narrow defeat away to Toulon. If you think their fodder then you would agree that AP are also fodder, no doubt.

It's my prediction for the next few years. We won't see a celtic team get that close to a final for a while. The domestic setup now needs to change for that to happen.

Had Tolouse really won 4 from 4? I didn't know that, I thought I was watching them get puhed around by Bath in round 4, clealry my memory is failing me. They were shockingly bad in that game though.

My point is there was a hge amount of dead rubbers in this years competition, but then I didn't buy BT sport so only watched SKY games, maybe SKY just did't get a huge amount of good group games.

I'm not sure why everyone dispells every point I make nd then focus's on the 1 mistake, it's like you guys are just trying to find fault and not discuss opinions, is this type of point scoring all there is?

Chunky, I probably agree with you, but what happens if the Celtic teams restructure and become competitive again and start to dominate like the last time, will there then be another tournament reshuffle?

Fanster wrote:Chunky, I probably agree with you, but what happens if the Celtic teams restructure and become competitive again and start to dominate like the last time, will there then be another tournament reshuffle?

5 out of the 14 Heineken Cups since the turn of the century were won by Celtic (Irish) sides. I wouldn't call that domination. But no, there won't be another reshuffle. That's happenned.

I was more talking about the 6/7 years that lead to the renegotiation talks, which have been ongoing for a few season, where Leinster and Munster were 5/7 winners.

if there is another patch of 5 years plus wher Celtic teams win more often than not?

That said what happens in 2020 if Toulon have won it 8/9 times by then?

Fanster wrote:I was more talking about the 6/7 years that lead to the renegotiation talks, which have been ongoing for a few season, where Leinster and Munster were 5/7 winners.

if there is another patch of 5 years plus wher Celtic teams win more often than not?

That said what happens in 2020 if Toulon have won it 8/9 times by then?

Well, I've sort of answered all that. In my opinion we WILL see Toulon, Clermont and other French teams dominating. And there is only one way to attempt to stop that, but people don't think it should even be considered as an option.

Fanster wrote:Had Tolouse really won 4 from 4? I didn't know that, I thought I was watching them get puhed around by Bath in round 4, clealry my memory is failing me. They were shockingly bad in that game though.

My point is there was a hge amount of dead rubbers in this years competition, but then I didn't buy BT sport so only watched SKY games, maybe SKY just did't get a huge amount of good group games.

I'm not sure why everyone dispells every point I make nd then focus's on the 1 mistake, it's like you guys are just trying to find fault and not discuss opinions, is this type of point scoring all there is?

There are always a load of dead rubber games. The previous season I think that 7 out of the 8 QF were already known going into the last round and it was just about jockeying for home games. Last year only one finalist was known. Two Quarter finalists had lost their first two games, which has never happened before.

You havn't answered, please forgive me if I've missed something but I asked if a reshuffle of the Rabo produced european winners for the next 5 years, what would be the response from the RPL?
Or if Toulon win the next 5 tournament what does everyone else do?

Fanster wrote:I was more talking about the 6/7 years that lead to the renegotiation talks, which have been ongoing for a few season, where Leinster and Munster were 5/7 winners.

if there is another patch of 5 years plus wher Celtic teams win more often than not?

That said what happens in 2020 if Toulon have won it 8/9 times by then?

All the changes were already being called for in 2007 when Munster had one 1 cup and Ulster had theirs (and there were three English semi-finalists). They hadn't given notice so they had to wait until the next notice period in 2012. The idea they did it because of the Irish success is just complete nonsense.

Hammer - I'm not sure if it's because I thoroughly enjoyed last years competition, and thus have been let down this year, or wether the extra English and French teams, combined with the growing distance in budgets etc from the Rabo nations, has produced a poor tournament for anyone outside of Saracens, Cleremont, Toulon, and Leinster.

Maybe with a horse to back I would enjoy it more, but given I haven't had one for ages and have always enjoyed the tournament i'm not sure.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
You must have missed Leinster just missing out on a final place after their narrow defeat away to Toulon. If you think their fodder then you would agree that AP are also fodder, no doubt.

It's my prediction for the next few years. We won't see a celtic team get that close to a final for a while. The domestic setup now needs to change for that to happen.

You might be right about that, Chunky, but if it's true for PRO12 sides it's also true for AP sides. I didn't have a lot of hope for the Provinces making it past the quarter finals this season, if they got as far as making it out of the group stages. Ulster's season was hugely disrupted by change in staff, and injuries. On top of that we had a very tough group to get out of. Two quarter finalists and the reigning champions in the same group.... Munster were, and are, a team in transition with a change in head coach. Leinster missing BOD, and not firing under the guidance of MOC. Even so they managed to make the semi's and were in with a real chance of reaching the final's. Next season is all a bit up in the air with the World Cup taking place. I think it will be another French club taking the championship. Can either the PRO12 or the AP produce a championship winner in the next few seasons? I don't know, but I'm not without hope that PRO12 can produce a winner. It's developing home grown talent V's buying in proven world class talent. Difficult but not impossible.

I don't think a B&I league is the answer at all. I am yet to be convinced those of PRO12 or AP would be financially better off, and I do believe some clubs from both sides would slip into obscurity.

Fanster wrote:Hammer - I'm not sure if it's because I thoroughly enjoyed last years competition, and thus have been let down this year, or wether the extra English and French teams, combined with the growing distance in budgets etc from the Rabo nations, has produced a poor tournament for anyone outside of Saracens, Cleremont, Toulon, and Leinster.

Maybe with a horse to back I would enjoy it more, but given I haven't had one for ages and have always enjoyed the tournament i'm not sure.

I lost interested in the games a good few years back. A bit more interest this year but only up to the quarters. And I only watched a few games anyway (I have BT sport for the league)

@Munchkin, how AP sides do will depend on the salary cap stuff I think.