Rugby Champions Cup 2015-16 - Tiers

First topic message reminder :

Early days I know to be thinking about the RCC for 2015-16 with the Top 14 still not passed through the semi final stage, but as things stand this seems how the four tiers will work out:

Tier 1 – Glasgow, Saracens, Winner Top14 final, one of Munster/Bath/Loser Top 14 final, one of Munster/Bath/Loser Top 14 final

Tier 2 – one of Munster/Bath/Loser Top 14 final, Ospreys, Northampton, better Top 14 losing SF, one of Ulster/Leicester/worse Top 14 losing SF

Tier 3 - one of Ulster/Leicester/worse Top 14 losing SF, one of Ulster/Leicester/worse Top 14 losing SF, Leinster, Exeter, Racing Metro

Tier 4 – Scarlets, Wasps, Oyonnax, Treviso, Bordeaux

For Tiers 1 and 2, anybody know how the two from Munster, Bath and the losing Top 14 finalist who will go into Tier 1 and the one from that group who will go into Tier 2 will be picked - do they pick them out of a hat or what?.  Likewise for Tier 2 and 3, do they pick one from Ulster, Leicester and the worse Top 14 semi-finalist  to go into Tier 2 and the two others go into Tier 3.

From a Leinster point of view we're paying for our sh1te season and could potentially face the Top 14 winner - presume it'll be Toulon of Clermont, Bath and Scarlets - not a nice prospect.  Alternatively we could face Saracens, Northampton and Treviso - not easy but certainly more palatable. Quite happy to be in same tier as Exeter - wouldn't fancy playing them.  

Lots of permutations for all you fans of the other 19 teams to contemplate

****

Edit: Draw has now been made for both competitions and the pools look like this:

2015/16 Champions Cup pools

Pool 1: Saracens, Ulster Rugby, Toulouse, Oyonnax
Pool 2: ASM Clermont Auvergne, Ospreys, Exeter Chiefs, Bordeaux-Bègles
Pool 3: Glasgow Warriors, Northampton Saints, Racing 92, Scarlets
Pool 4: Stade Français Rugby, Munster Rugby, Leicester Tigers, Benetton Treviso
Pool 5: Bath Rugby, RC Toulon, Leinster Rugby, Wasps

2015/16 Challenge Cup pools

Pool 1: Connacht Rugby, Brive, Newcastle Falcons, Eniset-STM
Pool 2: Sale Sharks, Newport Gwent Dragons, Castres Olympique, Pau
Pool 3: Montpellier, Harlequins, Cardiff Blues, Cammi Rugby Calvisano
Pool 4: La Rochelle, Gloucester Rugby, Zebre Rugby, Worcester Warriors
Pool 5: Edinburgh Rugby, London Irish, Grenoble, Agen

I thought that the pool stages in the 2013/14 tournament were in general boringly predictable, and the standard of matches was higher in 14/15.

That there was something still to play for for so many sides in the final round really helped. It should be remembered that if Wasps and Toulouse had succeeded with late drop goal attempts they would have met at the Ricoh in the 1/4 finals. Meanwhile Saracens would have been knocked out and Leinster would have been on the road in the 1/4s.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Fanster wrote:Hammer - I'm not sure if it's because I thoroughly enjoyed last years competition, and thus have been let down this year, or wether the extra English and French teams, combined with the growing distance in budgets etc from the Rabo nations, has produced a poor tournament for anyone outside of Saracens, Cleremont, Toulon, and Leinster.

Maybe with a horse to back I would enjoy it more, but given I haven't had one for ages and have always enjoyed the tournament i'm not sure.

I lost interested in the games a good few years back. A bit more interest this year but only up to the quarters. And I only watched a few games anyway (I have BT sport for the league)

@Munchkin, how AP sides do will depend on the salary cap stuff I think.

I think it might, Hammer, but I think it's more complicated than that. Say the AP raises the cap to match T14. Can they afford to make full use of it? If not will some clubs risk getting massively into debt to maintain a challenge in the Championship? Will the gap between the have's and the have not's widen in AP? Will the Euro Championship become a competition only for the wealthy? Could attempting to compete with T14's wealthy clubs prove detrimental to AP in the long run? I think so.

I was only thinking one or two clubs to be honest. I think it'll ruin the league but may allow some of them to win in Europe

HammerofThunor wrote:I was only thinking one or two clubs to be honest. I think it'll ruin the league but may allow some of them to win in Europe

I agree, Hammer. If a couple of clubs get their way with the salary cap either being massively raised or abolished altogether, then that could happen, but happen at a cost to the AP. Big money V's big money.

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
You must have missed Leinster just missing out on a final place after their narrow defeat away to Toulon. If you think their fodder then you would agree that AP are also fodder, no doubt.

It's my prediction for the next few years. We won't see a celtic team get that close to a final for a while. The domestic setup now needs to change for that to happen.

You might be right about that, Chunky, but if it's true for PRO12 sides it's also true for AP sides. I didn't have a lot of hope for the Provinces making it past the quarter finals this season, if they got as far as making it out of the group stages. Ulster's season was hugely disrupted by change in staff, and injuries.

Yes.

On top of that we had a very tough group to get out of. Two quarter finalists and the reigning champions in the same group.... Munster were, and are, a team in transition with a change in head coach. Leinster missing BOD, and not firing under the guidance of MOC. Even so they managed to make the semi's and were in with a real chance of reaching the final's. Next season is all a bit up in the air with the World Cup taking place. I think it will be another French club taking the championship. Can either the PRO12 or the AP produce a championship winner in the next few seasons? I don't know, but I'm not without hope that PRO12 can produce a winner. It's developing home grown talent V's buying in proven world class talent. Difficult but not impossible.

Perhaps a AP side, I very much doubt a pro12 side can.

I don't think a B&I league is the answer at all. I am yet to be convinced those of PRO12 or AP would be financially better off, and I do believe some clubs from both sides would slip into obscurity.

I cannot comprehend why you can't comprehend it. Why would a massive increase in tv deal NOT mean clubs are financially better off?

Munchkin wrote:

I think it might, Hammer, but I think it's more complicated than that. Say the AP raises the cap to match T14. Can they afford to make full use of it? If not will some clubs risk getting massively into debt to maintain a challenge in the Championship? Will the gap between the have's and the have not's widen in AP? Will the Euro Championship become a competition only for the wealthy? Could attempting to compete with T14's wealthy clubs prove detrimental to AP in the long run? I think so.

Why would a raise in salary cap instantly mean these clubs revert to suicidal business models? They don't HAVE to suddenly spend beyond their means if they don't want to.

The AP salary cap is clearly far too low at the moment.

Bath and Saracens already have those models and want to cap to increase massively. These two would spend more of what they don't have now. Others will either lose more money to compete or will simply fall behind in the league. The salary cap is already tied to the centrally generated funds. No sensible reason to change it.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

I think it might, Hammer, but I think it's more complicated than that. Say the AP raises the cap to match T14. Can they afford to make full use of it? If not will some clubs risk getting massively into debt to maintain a challenge in the Championship? Will the gap between the have's and the have not's widen in AP? Will the Euro Championship become a competition only for the wealthy? Could attempting to compete with T14's wealthy clubs prove detrimental to AP in the long run? I think so.

Why would a raise in salary cap instantly mean these clubs revert to suicidal business models? They don't HAVE to suddenly spend beyond their means if they don't want to.

The AP salary cap is clearly far too low at the moment.

There'll be folk in Newcastle and Worcester and Sale who would disagree, probably a few other places as well, let alone the aspirational clubs (except Bris) in the lower divisions.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
You must have missed Leinster just missing out on a final place after their narrow defeat away to Toulon. If you think their fodder then you would agree that AP are also fodder, no doubt.

It's my prediction for the next few years. We won't see a celtic team get that close to a final for a while. The domestic setup now needs to change for that to happen.

You might be right about that, Chunky, but if it's true for PRO12 sides it's also true for AP sides. I didn't have a lot of hope for the Provinces making it past the quarter finals this season, if they got as far as making it out of the group stages. Ulster's season was hugely disrupted by change in staff, and injuries.

Yes.

On top of that we had a very tough group to get out of. Two quarter finalists and the reigning champions in the same group.... Munster were, and are, a team in transition with a change in head coach. Leinster missing BOD, and not firing under the guidance of MOC. Even so they managed to make the semi's and were in with a real chance of reaching the final's. Next season is all a bit up in the air with the World Cup taking place. I think it will be another French club taking the championship. Can either the PRO12 or the AP produce a championship winner in the next few seasons? I don't know, but I'm not without hope that PRO12 can produce a winner. It's developing home grown talent V's buying in proven world class talent. Difficult but not impossible.

Perhaps a AP side, I very much doubt a pro12 side can.

I don't think a B&I league is the answer at all. I am yet to be convinced those of PRO12 or AP would be financially better off, and I do believe some clubs from both sides would slip into obscurity.

I cannot comprehend why you can't comprehend it. Why would a massive increase in tv deal NOT mean clubs are financially better off?

I can comprehend it. I just don't agree that a B&I is the answer. Why would there be a massive increase in a TV deal? Why do you think BT, or whoever else, will be prepared to pay more than they do at present to AP? A B&I would need to be a huge increase on the present deals (PRO12 SKY and AP BT), because current AP sides would expect a bare minimum of what they are currently receiving. If it was to be the present combined revenue of BT and SKY in a B&I, the PRO12 would receive an increase while the AP sides would receive less.
Which clubs would prosper it in a B&I, and which clubs would fall to the wayside? I can guess....

HammerofThunor wrote:Bath and Saracens already have those models and want to cap to increase massively. These two would spend more of what they don't have now.  Others will either lose more money to compete or will simply fall behind in the league.  The salary cap is already tied to the centrally generated funds. No sensible reason to change it.

Of course Bath and Saracens have the money they are spending.

Why should English clubs be forced to spend less on their rugby squads than the Irish and French?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

I think it might, Hammer, but I think it's more complicated than that. Say the AP raises the cap to match T14. Can they afford to make full use of it? If not will some clubs risk getting massively into debt to maintain a challenge in the Championship? Will the gap between the have's and the have not's widen in AP? Will the Euro Championship become a competition only for the wealthy? Could attempting to compete with T14's wealthy clubs prove detrimental to AP in the long run? I think so.

Why would a raise in salary cap instantly mean these clubs revert to suicidal business models? They don't HAVE to suddenly spend beyond their means if they don't want to.

The AP salary cap is clearly far too low at the moment.

What Hammer said.

They don't. They're borrowing it from their owners. Therefore it is building as debt. It's not being given as a gift, or sponsorship, but borrowed.

And they're forced to spend less so that more teams can be of the same level to be competitive without breaking the bank.

Munchkin wrote:
I can comprehend it. I just don't agree that a B&I is the answer. Why would there be a massive increase in a TV deal? Why do you think BT, or whoever else, will be prepared to pay more than they do at present to AP?

Because that would be the only show in town. PRL and PRW know this and hopefully the IRFU (and to a lesser extent the SRU) will soon realise this. As I've said, it may take a lacklustre 6Nations and French domination in the RCC to break the camels back.

A B&I would need to be a huge increase on the present deals (PRO12 SKY and AP BT), because current AP sides would expect a bare minimum of what they are currently receiving.

yes.

If it was to be the present combined revenue of BT and SKY in a B&I, the PRO12 would receive an increase while the AP sides would receive less.
Which clubs would prosper it in a B&I, and which clubs would fall to the wayside? I can guess....

All clubs would prosper. It's all coming in to place already:

-Bristol and Leeds(?) get promoted next season into a 14 team Aviva Premeirship
-The AP is ringfenced at 14 teams
-PRL will compensate the Championship to facfilitate this move
-A British and Irish League is born.

Hopefully this happens in 2017, but depends on when this all dawns on the blazers clinging on to amatuer regimes.

HammerofThunor wrote:They don't. They're borrowing it from their owners. Therefore it is building as debt. It's not being given as a gift, or sponsorship, but borrowed.

And they're forced to spend less so that more teams can be of the same level to be competitive without breaking the bank.

An owner of a private company should be able to invest in that company how he or she sees fit. You invest in areas to profit in others. There is no way that the English should be forced to spend less than their competitors, that is simply crazy.

It's not crazy. It's a choice to try and keep the league as competitive as possible. you might not agree with it and prefer the model that sees the same sides win year on year or one where everyone is in massive debt but I don't. Nor do/did the clubs which is why they set up the structure that way. Nor do the NFL, which is one of the most successful sporting competitions in the world.

I do not believe that a B&I league would bring in massive increases to TV revenues. There just are not enough armchair fans to justify yet more large increases over and above those delivered by the current deals.

Whether we like it or not, Rugby is a niche sport. We love it, but most people in the UK have no interest at all.

HammerofThunor wrote:It's not crazy. It's a choice to try and keep the league as competitive as possible. you might not agree with it and prefer the model that sees the same sides win year on year or one where everyone is in massive debt but I don't. Nor do/did the clubs which is why they set up the structure that way. Nor do the NFL, which is one of the most successful sporting competitions in the world.

The NFL aren't competing with anyone else. That's a terrible example.

It's more or less the same 4 teams at the top as it is anyway. This is about the bigger picture. Competing on a European scale.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:They don't. They're borrowing it from their owners. Therefore it is building as debt. It's not being given as a gift, or sponsorship, but borrowed.

And they're forced to spend less so that more teams can be of the same level to be competitive without breaking the bank.

An owner of a private company should be able to invest in that company how he or she sees fit. You invest in areas to profit in others. There is no way that the English should be forced to spend less than their competitors, that is simply crazy.

Except they are not investing, they are lending. And when they walk away the club goes bust. I would rather we kept the Salary Cap, and enforced it.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:It's not crazy. It's a choice to try and keep the league as competitive as possible. you might not agree with it and prefer the model that sees the same sides win year on year or one where everyone is in massive debt but I don't. Nor do/did the clubs which is why they set up the structure that way. Nor do the NFL, which is one of the most successful sporting competitions in the world.

The NFL aren't competing with anyone else. That's a terrible example.

It's more or less the same 4 teams at the top as it is anyway. This is about the bigger picture. Competing on a European scale.

It was clearly an example about maintaining competitiveness with an artificially applied cap. You seem to think that being the best in Europe is the most important thing. It really isn't. I'd rather a competitive league than one with one or two top teams that can win in Europe.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
I can comprehend it. I just don't agree that a B&I is the answer. Why would there be a massive increase in a TV deal? Why do you think BT, or whoever else, will be prepared to pay more than they do at present to AP?

Because that would be the only show in town. PRL and PRW know this and hopefully the IRFU (and to a lesser extent the SRU) will soon realise this. As I've said, it may take a lacklustre 6Nations and French domination in the RCC to break the camels back.

A B&I would need to be a huge increase on the present deals (PRO12 SKY and AP BT), because current AP sides would expect a bare minimum of what they are currently receiving.

yes.

If it was to be the present combined revenue of BT and SKY in a B&I, the PRO12 would receive an increase while the AP sides would receive less.
Which clubs would prosper it in a B&I, and which clubs would fall to the wayside? I can guess....

All clubs would prosper. It's all coming in to place already:

-Bristol and Leeds(?) get promoted next season into a 14 team Aviva Premeirship
-The AP is ringfenced at 14 teams
-PRL will compensate the Championship to facfilitate this move
-A British and Irish League is born.

Hopefully this happens in 2017, but depends on when this all dawns on the blazers clinging on to amatuer regimes.

Being the only show in town doesn't mean there will be a massive increase in broadcasting revenue. Business doesn't work that way.

PRL and PRW know this? Do they? I know there was some chat amongst some clubs, but, from memory, those chats were informal, and those chats were designed by the bigger AP clubs to put pressure on the smaller AP clubs. It was never a realistic option. PRW have come out and said this? Do you have a link?

All clubs would prosper? No they wouldn't. Wealth in this sense would be relative. In a B&I there will be more of the wealthier clubs, and those wealthier clubs will be competing against each other to finish top, and in competing against each other, players salaries will raise. And that's before we start talking about competing against the big T14 clubs, and the need to match their salary cap.

I think your vision of what is going to happen in the next season or so is a fanciful dream. It isn't going to happen,

LondonTiger wrote:

Except they are not investing, they are lending. And when they walk away the club goes bust. I would rather we kept the Salary Cap, and enforced it.

That's fine. And that will maintain the the Aviva Pem in insolation, but Europe will be dead in a few years.

Munchkin wrote:

Being the only show in town doesn't mean there will be a massive increase in broadcasting revenue. Business doesn't work that way.

PRL and PRW know this? Do they? I know there was some chat amongst some clubs, but, from memory, those chats were informal, and those chats were designed by the bigger AP clubs to put pressure on the smaller AP clubs. It was never a realistic option. PRW have come out and said this? Do you have a link?

All clubs would prosper? No they wouldn't. Wealth in this sense would be relative. In a B&I there will be more of the wealthier clubs, and those wealthier clubs will be competing against each other to finish top, and in competing against each other, players salaries will raise. And that's before we start talking about competing against the big T14 clubs, and the need to match their salary cap.

I think your vision of what is going to happen in the next season or so is a fanciful dream. It isn't going to happen,

You know I haven't got a link. This is all my opinion. As I keep saying, time will tell us what happens.

My club is circa the 34th poorest club out of 36 in European top flight. So putting forward the rich get richer and the poor get poorer argument doesn't mean much.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Except they are not investing, they are lending. And when they walk away the club goes bust. I would rather we kept the Salary Cap, and enforced it.

That's fine. And that will maintain the the Aviva Pem in insolation, but Europe will be dead in a  few years.

What do you mean by Europe?

HammerofThunor wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Except they are not investing, they are lending. And when they walk away the club goes bust. I would rather we kept the Salary Cap, and enforced it.

That's fine. And that will maintain the the Aviva Pem in insolation, but Europe will be dead in a  few years.

What do you mean by Europe?

European competition and possibly the 6Nations.

The 6Ns will possibly be dead in a few years? Brilliant stuff as ever.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Except they are not investing, they are lending. And when they walk away the club goes bust. I would rather we kept the Salary Cap, and enforced it.

That's fine. And that will maintain the the Aviva Pem in insolation, but Europe will be dead in a  few years.

What do you mean by Europe?

European competition and possibly the 6Nations.

Sorry, I meant, what do you mean by Europe will be dead? As in the competition will cease to exist or become a side competition? If so, why would I care if the premiership is still strong? And how would the English cap kill Europe? I think abolishing the cap would kill Europe because the Celtic teams simply wouldn't be able to compete financially?

You're welcome.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Being the only show in town doesn't mean there will be a massive increase in broadcasting revenue. Business doesn't work that way.

PRL and PRW know this? Do they? I know there was some chat amongst some clubs, but, from memory, those chats were informal, and those chats were designed by the bigger AP clubs to put pressure on the smaller AP clubs. It was never a realistic option. PRW have come out and said this? Do you have a link?

All clubs would prosper? No they wouldn't. Wealth in this sense would be relative. In a B&I there will be more of the wealthier clubs, and those wealthier clubs will be competing against each other to finish top, and in competing against each other, players salaries will raise. And that's before we start talking about competing against the big T14 clubs, and the need to match their salary cap.

I think your vision of what is going to happen in the next season or so is a fanciful dream. It isn't going to happen,

You know I haven't got a link. This is all my opinion. As I keep saying, time will tell us what happens.

My club is circa the 34th poorest club out of 36 in European top flight. So putting forward the rich get richer and the poor get poorer argument doesn't mean much.

It's your opinion that PRL and PRW are for a B&I league. Fair enough, I suppose.

It might not mean much to you, Chunky, but the fact that your club is 34th poorest club doesn't mean it's likely to climb that ladder by simply joining a B&I league. In fact if your club is struggling financially now, it will most likely suffer much worse in a B&I league. There are those who view a B&I league as some sort of Nirvana for the Regions. It's nonsense. rather than a Nirvana, it could well be your Hades.

Not much point running away from your problems, as your problems tend to travel with you. Sort out the problems at home, and then think of travel. By that time travel may not seem so appealing.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Except they are not investing, they are lending. And when they walk away the club goes bust. I would rather we kept the Salary Cap, and enforced it.

That's fine. And that will maintain the the Aviva Pem in insolation, but Europe will be dead in a  few years.

What do you mean by Europe?

European competition and possibly the 6Nations.

Sorry, I meant, what do you mean by Europe will be dead? As in the competition will cease to exist or become a side competition? If so, why would I care if the premiership is still strong? And how would the English cap kill Europe? ?

-France are dominating domestic rugby
-English teams can compete with them if the salary cap is raised.
-If the cap is kept at 4.5m then this won't happen, and the RCC will develop into a competition won by the same teams over and over again, with some teams not even bothering. It will be a side show. Broadcasters may even pull out, who knows.

I think abolishing the cap would kill Europe because the Celtic teams simply wouldn't be able to compete financially

Why would the English raising their salary cap directly affect say, the Irish finances in the short term?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Except they are not investing, they are lending. And when they walk away the club goes bust. I would rather we kept the Salary Cap, and enforced it.

That's fine. And that will maintain the the Aviva Pem in insolation, but Europe will be dead in a  few years.

As a fan of a regularly finishing top 4 AP team I sincerely hope the salary cap is kept and is enforced properly. Although I would love to see English teams coming out on top in Europe I wouldn't want it being at the expense of the prem becoming less competitive with just a couple of clubs having much stronger squads.

I enjoy European competition but the AP is by far and away the main club comp for me.

So Europe will be saved by having it won each year by one of 5 English and French teams, rather than one of 3 French teams? That really isn't a good enough reason to **** over the league.

There are some really good points made above, europe is going to struggle without competitiveness, and right now there are 3 tiers to the european competition...

Toloun, cleremont and the big Haves, the rich but not quite uber rich, and the rest.

I'd like to ask what everyone would think and feel at 2020 when say Toulon have won 7 european titles in a row? Will audiences suffer? Will the competition suffer?

It's easy to look at the very recent history and project the doom and gloom of status quo. However, a small number of teams have dominated the top European competition for the last 20 years, so domination isn't really new. Just 6 teams have between them won 16 of the 20 finals since 1995.

Things rarely stay the same for long and I doubt we'll see Toulon win 7 in a row through 2020. I'm optimistic - sport has a way of self correcting. After all, if money and resources were all that was needed, England would win every 6Ns easily.

Fanster wrote:I'd like to ask what everyone would think and feel at 2020 when say Toulon have won 7 european titles in a row? Will audiences suffer? Will the competition suffer?

If it happens, not great. Will the competition suffer - perhaps especially with fair weather fans.

However sport goes in cycles and spending huge sums is no guarantee of success. Look at how much money Racing have spent over the last few years for bugger all return. In fact Toulon are a great example, as under first Tana Umaga and then PSA they spent more money than anyone and won nothing. Eventually they built a team with players who still had that burning desire to win - and we have seen 3 titles. But also they now need to rebuild.

This season a desperately poor Leicester side had enough desire and will to beat them at home. Ulster really had the talent to do so - and that would have seen them facing an away 1/4 final.

This coming season, should they win the T14 they could find themselves in a group with Munster, Leicester and Bordeaux/Begles. Some tricky places to go away to and win in Europe. Fail to win their T14 semi and they could face Saracens, Munster and B/B. An even harder task.

The problem with the Toulon experiment is that it does take a bit of time to become succesfull, Toulon spent a small fortune for a few seasons and got a foothold in the T14 and european game, but then they went to the next level and bought world class outright, which if we're being honest proved succesfull.

Racing made the quarters this year didn't they? money eventually talks, and the way the French teams are spending it they will have to dominate for the next few seasons.

Lets go down another route, what if we have n all French semi final next season?

C'est la vie.

Fanster wrote:Hammer - I'm not sure if it's because I thoroughly enjoyed last years competition, and thus have been let down this year, or wether the extra English and French teams, combined with the growing distance in budgets etc from the Rabo nations, has produced a poor tournament for anyone outside of Saracens, Cleremont, Toulon, and Leinster.

Maybe with a horse to back I would enjoy it more, but given I haven't had one for ages and have always enjoyed the tournament i'm not sure.

The Rabo nations?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Except they are not investing, they are lending. And when they walk away the club goes bust. I would rather we kept the Salary Cap, and enforced it.

That's fine. And that will maintain the the Aviva Pem in insolation, but Europe will be dead in a  few years.

What do you mean by Europe?

European competition and possibly the 6Nations.

Sorry, I meant, what do you mean by Europe will be dead? As in the competition will cease to exist or become a side competition? If so, why would I care if the premiership is still strong? And how would the English cap kill Europe? ?

-France are dominating domestic rugby
-English teams can compete with them if the salary cap is raised.
-If the cap is kept at 4.5m then this won't happen, and the RCC will develop into a competition won by the same teams over and over again, with some teams not even bothering. It will be a side show. Broadcasters may even pull out, who knows.

I think abolishing the cap would kill Europe because the Celtic teams simply wouldn't be able to compete financially

Why would the English raising their salary cap directly affect say, the Irish finances in the short term?

It wouldn't affect the Irish finances. The flow of monies to the IRFU and the provinces that they gain from competitions reduced this year, and will reduce further if they are going to be cannon fodder in seasons to come. Raising of the salary cap to spend more of the new TV BT money will give greater salary/package spending power to English clubs, and the purchasing power of the Irish club finances will be affected - unless they can find more willing businesses interests to make up the difference - the economy is slowly picking up so this may be a possibility.

So Toulon will only be France's 3rd seeded team.

Who fancies a pool containing Sarries, Munster and Toulon?

Does that mean Toulon lost last night?

Fanster wrote:Does that mean Toulon lost last night?

They did. Quite convincingly 33-16 by stade français... However how are you sure they will be 3rd and not 2nd tier still? Need at least to wait for the other semi?

Even as 2nd tier that is devestating!

Does this mean they will go out and spend more (Even more than they have so far)?

Will they now start to concentrate on one competition or will they still believe they can win both?

Am I right in thinking they've only won the T14 once? Last season?

I doubt the seeding affects their budget. Not sure they care that much.
Yes toulon won last year. Before that they were twice losing finalists.

Does every nation now start tying down key players? Any tighthead, 8 and lock with international experience will be on a shortlist?

LondonTiger wrote:I do not believe that a B&I league would bring in massive increases to TV revenues. There just are not enough armchair fans to justify yet more large increases over and above those delivered by the current deals.

Whether we like it or not, Rugby is a niche sport. We love it, but most people in the UK have no interest at all.

Agree totally LT.

The calculation is quite simple:
PRL get £40m with 12 teams = £3.3m / team
B&I would need £80m with 24 teams = £3.3m / team

A doubling of the TV income isn't going to happen in an already saturated market never mind attracting enough extra to make it worth their while.

Once the ERC Cup moved away from being a European Union competition to a club beauty contest the haves will want to spend more and more to show "who is the fairest of them all". So what will happen is that three or four teams will increasingly dominate their respective leagues and they will eventually break away into a European 'super league' franchise with no salary caps or player restrictions. (The ugly sisters will be left to their own devices.)

So it's still possible for Ulster to get drawn against Exeter and Bordeaux- I hope that happens.

Since I don't think we have the squad to win the competition outright yet, I mainly want to get drawn against teams that we haven't played against recently, much or at all (i.e. not Leicester, Saracens) and that have good, colourful fan bases.

A reunion with Stade Francais would also be great.

The Great Aukster wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I do not believe that a B&I league would bring in massive increases to TV revenues. There just are not enough armchair fans to justify yet more large increases over and above those delivered by the current deals.

Whether we like it or not, Rugby is a niche sport. We love it, but most people in the UK have no interest at all.

Agree totally LT.

The calculation is quite simple:
PRL get £40m with 12 teams = £3.3m / team
B&I would need £80m with 24 teams = £3.3m / team

A doubling of the TV income isn't going to happen in an already saturated market never mind attracting enough extra to make it worth their while.

Once the ERC Cup moved away from being a European Union competition to a club beauty contest the haves will want to spend more and more to show "who is the fairest of them all". So what will happen is that three or four teams will increasingly dominate their respective leagues and they will eventually break away into a European 'super league' franchise with no salary caps or player restrictions. (The ugly sisters will be left to their own devices.)

I don't think it will be 24 teams in a B&I Comp. Far more likely to be an Invitation type situation where the criteria will be set by the 2 nigels. There first action with the Heineken Cup was to reduce the number of teams. From what has been said, the AP are only interested in the Irish teams (big 3) with large fan bases who travel. So Irish Big 3, Ospreys & Glasgow = 5 from PRO12. AP would have 7 teams. The rest could play in a Curry / ITM Cup type competition.

Chunky - be careful of what you wish for. I doubt very much if the IRFU will be as generous as they have been in the past looking out for their celtic & Italian brethern. I think they have learned a lesson there.

whocares wrote:

Fanster wrote:Does that mean Toulon lost last night?

They did. Quite convincingly 33-16 by stade français... However how are you sure they will be 3rd and not 2nd tier still? Need at least to wait for the other semi?

With Toulon losing by 17 and Toulouse losing by 4 in the semis, does this now mean Toulon are going into Tier 4??????????

No Brenno, the ranking between tiers 3 and 4 for the Top14 is based on their regular season ranking.

Once Toulon lost their semifinal, there neither Toulouse nor Clermont could be ranked higher than Toulon if they lost their semi. Which is to say that Toulon were always going to be tier 3 if they didn't make the final.