Ward vs Calzaghe? Thoughts on this fantasy match up?

I think Ward would edge this one, perhaps too strong and spoil Joe's best work. I'd want Joe to win, but Ward has a way of getting the job done.

Very similar to the Hopkins fight but Ward would last better down the stretch.

I would pick ward 115-113!

Be a close fight for sure.

I cannot favour any SMW in history to outpoint a prime Joe,even Rjj or Ward. His output and southpaw skills I feel will always come on top over 12. The question is can ward Ko him and I feel the answer is no. I'd lean towards a Calzaghe decision,116-112.

Ward.

Adam has it spot on. Calzaghe-Hopkins (which I still think he lost, but refuse to watch again on principle/Have yet to find something I'd rather not be doing), but a better finish from Ward, and maybe better headbutt skills. Ward 115-112 with a point deduction somewhere there.

Calzaghe. Too fast, busy and aggressive for Ward.

This is definitely going to have people split on their opinions.

Both very different styles.

Raf I would never watch that Hopkins fight again. Terrible fight.

This one normally ends in a landslide vote for ward. Pickem for me, workrate v better boxing talent.

The Hopkins fight was the night I lowered my opinion of Calzaghe, but Bernie has continued to frustrate a decent level of opposition since and Calzaghe was past his best too. It may be a pointer to how a top level fighter like ward would handle jc... And it might not.

Ward takes it for me.. Pure class... He has made every fighter just look ineffective... I think Joe may have rustled him with pressure for a few rounds, But Ward would have picked up enough rounds by the 12th... Probably would have given him i harder fight than everyone else has though.

I've always backed Calzaghe in this and still do, I don't think he'd respect Ward early on like he did Hopkins and the final three rounds are only ever going to one person. Froch had him blowing in a fight he won comfortably, imagine that level of stamina against Calzaghe and you have problems, also not convinced he's the better boxer, for all of his faults Joe was a good technician and could adapt mid fight.

Calzaghe before his hands went and he got too slappy would have kept Ward honest and would have got the win for me.  Ward has never fought a fighter as talented as Joe, Froch is a tier below.

I must have imagined the Robin Reid fight...

Ward unable to take the fight due to contractual obligations imposed by his management company.

Don't know if it's necessarily any kind of yardstick but Hopkins wouldn't go anywhere near Ward and distanced himself from that fight as soon as Andre won the Super Six BUT he was always up for the Calzaghe fight.

I guess style-wise it's not difficult to assume Ward's going to have more problems with Calzaghe than he did Froch and you can't wholly rule out Calzaghe becoming the first man to decision Ward by a close ud or sd.

Always have gone Ward ud in my head because he's looked so dominant but Calzaghe was a very fine boxer himself. I guess if Ward went on to beat Kov, then that might make it easier to pick Ward in this fantasy battle but Joe always did find a way. Who knows!

The Calzaghe without hand trouble had enough pop in his punches to stop Ward imposing himself. Coupled with the exceptional workrate, as long as Calzaghe doesn't lose concentration, he takes it on the cards. Not the prettiest fight you see but one that will have you unsure who 's going to get it right into the Championship rounds.

The Calzaghe with bad hands may just eke out a win but wouldn't bet the house on it. Joe may have to risk letting his hands go and busting them up otherwise Ward nicks it via controversial SD

I don't really see any advantages Calzaghe has over Ward aside from punch output. Possibly hand speed as well but I'd say Calzaghe's fondness for combination punching maybe makes his edge there look bigger than it is. Ward is pretty quick himself.

Calzaghe's workrate often gets put forward as the decider in this one but I don't think that's enough here. There's an assumption that he'll be able to throw 1,000 punches against Ward but I don't think he'd be able to. The Hopkins and David Starie fights bother me here. Calzaghe just couldn't fight inside - and Ward is an absolute bully there, both in terms of strength and doing effective work. In both those fights mentioned Calzaghe's output was way, way down because those guys were able to diffuse his output and smother his work at close quarters.

Ward doesn't tend to be in the right kind of range for a volume puncher all that much. He's either right inside, bullying his man back and letting short punches go there, or he's on the outside where he's got a much better defence than Calzaghe and a much better jab, too. Calzaghe would be better equipped to get him coming in than the guys he's faced so far, agree there, but I don't think he'd be able to stop him outright. Ward just too good at dictating the terms of engagement for Calzaghe to make that workrate count all that much, for me.

The Boone fight maybe, just maybe, leaves a slight question mark over Ward's chin so I think the younger Calzaghe with more pop in his shots might have a puncher's chance, but as an overall package I think Ward has more going for him and more ways to win this one.

Joe always did find a way it has to be said.

Having said that he never boxed Carl Froch whom I've always thought style-wise would have been Calzaghe's most difficult test.

So Joe to some extent benefits from his 'O' because people say he always finds a way but Froch for example suffers in these fantasy matches because he lost his biggest fight. BUT Froch didn't miss anyone out.

Chris, there's no doubt jc's output will be down against a guy with an excellent defence and a willingness to spoil and grapple.

How you describe the fight panning out is entirely plausible, my potential alternative to it is this. Combination punchers can (not will, but can) cause problems to defensively skilled  fighters and counter punchers. More than any fighter I can recall from his generation, Calzaghe was prepared to get in range and offload multiple punches. It's a brave fighter that does this because you are vulnerable yourself.. And it part explains how he got tagged a fair few times. But it presents a challenge to guys used to slipping, countering or tieing up. It forces them sometimes to engage or just cover up when they don't necessarily want to.

So, does ward pick him off and tie him up. Yep. But everytime? He will be facing something he's yet to meet in his career and we don't know how he handles it.

There are still a few unanswered questions about ward for me.. How he handles a dirrell or even a degale type. He's an exceptional talent so I imagine he'd cope fine. Hopefully we'll soon find out.

I said Pickem earlier, I probably favour ward slightly but I don't think either met anyone particularly like the other so its tough to call for me.

JC never fought anyone of Ward's calibre or quality. Struggled with an older, less powerful, less natural super-mid (at LHW) in Hoppo who's a similar tricky/dirty fighter with expect 'ringcraft'.

7/10 Ward UD, 3/10 JC based on work-rate.

milkyboy wrote:This one normally ends in a landslide vote for ward. Pickem for me, workrate v better boxing talent.

The Hopkins fight was the night I lowered my opinion of Calzaghe, but Bernie has continued to frustrate a decent level of opposition since and Calzaghe was past his best too. It may be a pointer to how a top level fighter like ward would handle jc... And it might not.

When was his best then?!?

Had about as short a prime as Mike bloody Tyson!!

Can only think of his discernible peak period being Lacy to Kessler, so March 06 to November 07 (18 months) therefore. He fought Hoppo less than 6 months later.

Have to agree. The smart money is with Ward on this.

The Hoppo fight is a great measuring stick on how JC would struggle with a ring savvy fighter like Ward, in his prime.

With Joe's bravery and work rate, it would be close on the cards but for me Ward is just that bit better.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I must have imagined the Robin Reid fight...

Its called selected memory Truss, easier not to mention this fight than admit it was close enough to go either way.

Pick em on attributes. Think I'd favour Joe if it had happened though, think he'd have the mental edge. If it didn't go his way, he'd find a way.

Take into account obvious Welsh bias here. I'm having a patriotic day, the missus just surprised me to say she's taking me to see the Manics in the castle later!

In a triple threat on the cobbles I would back the Cobra!!

I reckon Froch would make it a difficult night for Joe but still lose every round to be honest.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

milkyboy wrote:This one normally ends in a landslide vote for ward. Pickem for me, workrate v better boxing talent.

The Hopkins fight was the night I lowered my opinion of Calzaghe, but Bernie has continued to frustrate a decent level of opposition since and Calzaghe was past his best too. It may be a pointer to how a top level fighter like ward would handle jc... And it might not.

When was his best then?!?

Had about as short a prime as Mike bloody Tyson!!

Can only think of his discernible peak period being Lacy to Kessler, so March 06 to November 07 (18 months) therefore.  He fought Hoppo less than 6 months later.

Based on the premise he looked off the pace (could have been the weight) and retired a fight later.

Nico the gman wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I must have imagined the Robin Reid fight...

Its called selected memory Truss, easier not to mention this fight than admit it was close enough to go either way.

True. We all imagined ward on Queer Street getting saved by the bell and winning a decision that could have gone either way against boone too.

milkyboy wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

milkyboy wrote:This one normally ends in a landslide vote for ward. Pickem for me, workrate v better boxing talent.

The Hopkins fight was the night I lowered my opinion of Calzaghe, but Bernie has continued to frustrate a decent level of opposition since and Calzaghe was past his best too. It may be a pointer to how a top level fighter like ward would handle jc... And it might not.

When was his best then?!?

Had about as short a prime as Mike bloody Tyson!!

Can only think of his discernible peak period being Lacy to Kessler, so March 06 to November 07 (18 months) therefore.  He fought Hoppo less than 6 months later.

Based on the premise he looked off the pace (could have been the weight) and retired a fight later.

Whch, as I say, sounds suspiciously 'Prime Mike Tyson' like....

TopHat24/7 wrote:JC never fought anyone of Ward's calibre or quality. Struggled with an older, less powerful, less natural super-mid (at LHW) in Hoppo who's a similar tricky/dirty fighter with expect 'ringcraft'.

7/10 Ward UD, 3/10 JC based on work-rate.

Ward's fought some very good fighters but he's arguable not fought anyone of Calzaghe's calibre or quality.  He's also not fought anyone who fights like Joe.  I'd have Ward as the slight favourite in an interesting but probably relatively rubbish fight.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

milkyboy wrote:This one normally ends in a landslide vote for ward. Pickem for me, workrate v better boxing talent.

The Hopkins fight was the night I lowered my opinion of Calzaghe, but Bernie has continued to frustrate a decent level of opposition since and Calzaghe was past his best too. It may be a pointer to how a top level fighter like ward would handle jc... And it might not.

When was his best then?!?

Had about as short a prime as Mike bloody Tyson!!

Can only think of his discernible peak period being Lacy to Kessler, so March 06 to November 07 (18 months) therefore.  He fought Hoppo less than 6 months later.

Based on the premise he looked off the pace (could have been the weight) and retired a fight later.

Whch, as I say, sounds suspiciously 'Prime Mike Tyson' like....

Well it does to you apparently toppy.

I'm not discounting the Hopkins performance from Calzaghe... as I said earlier it was the day I lowered my opinion of Calzaghe as a fighter. Hopkins clearly past his best, not sure it was the best of Calzaghe either.

milkyboy wrote:

Nico the gman wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I must have imagined the Robin Reid fight...

Its called selected memory Truss, easier not to mention this fight than admit it was close enough to go either way.

True. We all imagined ward on Queer Street getting saved by the bell and winning a decision that could have gone either way against boone too.

Oh sorry I thought Truss was talking about Calzaghe/Reid must have read it wrong.

The thread is ward Calzaghe. You were both talking about selective memory re calzaghe's worst performance (which I agree on). So I pointed out the boone performance for ward. Sorry if you don't think its relevant fella.

milkyboy wrote:The thread is ward Calzaghe. You were both talking about selective memory re calzaghe's worst performance (which I agree on). So I pointed out the boone performance for ward. Sorry if you don't think its relevant fella.

Comparable? A seven fight veteran on queer street against a proper banger in a fight which was otherwise okay, vs a world champion going life and death...

milkyboy wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

milkyboy wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

milkyboy wrote:This one normally ends in a landslide vote for ward. Pickem for me, workrate v better boxing talent.

The Hopkins fight was the night I lowered my opinion of Calzaghe, but Bernie has continued to frustrate a decent level of opposition since and Calzaghe was past his best too. It may be a pointer to how a top level fighter like ward would handle jc... And it might not.

When was his best then?!?

Had about as short a prime as Mike bloody Tyson!!

Can only think of his discernible peak period being Lacy to Kessler, so March 06 to November 07 (18 months) therefore.  He fought Hoppo less than 6 months later.

Based on the premise he looked off the pace (could have been the weight) and retired a fight later.

Whch, as I say, sounds suspiciously 'Prime Mike Tyson' like....

Well it does to you apparently toppy.

I'm not discounting the Hopkins performance from Calzaghe...  as I said earlier it was the day I lowered my opinion of Calzaghe as a fighter. Hopkins clearly past his best, not sure it was the best of Calzaghe either.

I've just never been a fan/believer of the whole 'old overnight' excuse, especially here. Apparently sensational aginst Lacy 2 yrs before and equally brilliant against Kess 6 months before, the two career defining fights for JC, and yet by Hoppo he was alreading sliding downhill into retirement?

Just can't see it.

kingraf wrote:

milkyboy wrote:The thread is ward Calzaghe. You were both talking about selective memory re calzaghe's worst performance (which I agree  on). So I pointed out the boone performance  for ward. Sorry if you don't think its relevant fella.

Comparable? A seven fight veteran on queer street against a proper banger in a fight which was otherwise okay, vs a world champion going life and death...

Reid>Boone.

Darnell's just gotta freak CV.

Very hard to pinpoint when Calzaghe was at his best due to some rotten opposition; Lacy, Kessler and Hopkins are his best wins but I don't think he was at his absolute physical peak at that time, the hand trouble means he definitely wasn't at his best.

kingraf wrote:

milkyboy wrote:The thread is ward Calzaghe. You were both talking about selective memory re calzaghe's worst performance (which I agree  on). So I pointed out the boone performance  for ward. Sorry if you don't think its relevant fella.

Comparable? A seven fight veteran on queer street against a proper banger in a fight which was otherwise okay, vs a world champion going life and death...

Yeh, I give  an Olympic gold medalist being saved by the bell as something of note for potential beatability whenever in his career it happened. It wasn't meant as a direct comparison,  the point was about selective memories when discussing fighters records.

Oh, and Boone may have knocked out stevenson with a Hail Mary but he's not a noted banger.

As truss would tell us, the barkley fights don't make hearns sh*t. Jeff lacy battered robin Reid. There's more to Calzaghe than a surprise struggle against Reid just like there's a lot more to ward than getting banjo'd as a novice.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

kingraf wrote:

milkyboy wrote:The thread is ward Calzaghe. You were both talking about selective memory re calzaghe's worst performance (which I agree  on). So I pointed out the boone performance  for ward. Sorry if you don't think its relevant fella.

Comparable? A seven fight veteran on queer street against a proper banger in a fight which was otherwise okay, vs a world champion going life and death...

Reid>Boone.

Darnell's just gotta freak CV.

That wasn't the argument. Getting knocked down in your seventh fight is hardly a crime, and in no way a bigger display of potential weaknesses than going life and death with Reid as a world champion. A 2004-5 Ward has a bigger scope for improvement than a '99 Calzaghe

Hopkins was interested in a Ward fight at one point actually. But after they became friends Hopkins did his best to big Ward up and vice versa. Also Hopkins hits harder than Ward, so Joe might be willing to get in a bit closer without trying the windmill slaps. Although id still pick Ward. Ward is fantastic on the inside and this could get messy

I’m not sure when exactly Calzaghe was at his absolute peak either, but if he was past it when he fought Hopkins I don’t think it could have been by anything more than a slither, and certainly not as far as Bernard was past his. Depends how you’d define it, I guess. A fighter can decline physically but at the same time gain in ring craft, confidence etc.

He was a week or so shy of 34 when he beat Lacy and was 35 when he beat Kessler. It’s relatively rare for a fighter to be peaking at such an age unless they turned pro a little later than most, ala Froch. Calzaghe was a professional at 21 and had his first title fight at 25. By rights you’d have expected him to have dimmed a bit by the time he was in his mid-thirties, but when did he ever look better than he did in those fights? Never, really. And he I don’t think he showed any hallmarks of a faded fighter in those fights, either.

A lot gets made of how brittle his hands had become by 2006 / 2007, but if you go back to the turn of the century before his hands became chronic he was having a real struggle with Robin Reid and stinking the place out and looking poor against Starie. So while he might have hit harder, was he a better all-round fighter at that stage as a younger man? Debatable.

Maybe the six years in between those two time frames, when he had the best of both worlds (in terms of being more experienced but still at the kind of age where you’d expect an athlete to be at their best), might have shown him to be at his absolute peak, but we’ll never know because he just wasn’t fighting a good enough level of opposition in those years to get an accurate gauge.

I basically look at it like this – Calzaghe looked indefatigable against Lacy and put on an excellent all-round display against Kessler, who was definitely the best Super-Middleweight he faced. He looked the absolute part in both fights and you’d be hard pressed to find any fight from his career before that spell which was as impressive as those ones. In theory, he perhaps SHOULD have been past his best by the time he moved up to 175 to take on Hopkins, but none of the evidence really suggests he was, to me. When you’re that age your prime can turn pretty quickly, mind you, so I can accept that it might not have been a 100% Calzaghe by 2008, but not to the point where his problems with Hopkins don’t deserve a bit of scrutiny.

kingraf wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

kingraf wrote:

milkyboy wrote:The thread is ward Calzaghe. You were both talking about selective memory re calzaghe's worst performance (which I agree  on). So I pointed out the boone performance  for ward. Sorry if you don't think its relevant fella.

Comparable? A seven fight veteran on queer street against a proper banger in a fight which was otherwise okay, vs a world champion going life and death...

Reid>Boone.

Darnell's just gotta freak CV.

That wasn't the argument. Getting knocked down in your seventh fight is hardly a crime, and in no way a bigger display of potential weaknesses than going life and death with Reid as a world champion. A 2004-5 Ward has a bigger scope for improvement than a '99 Calzaghe

Did anybody say it was? Truss picked one fight to question Calzaghe's record, I picked one with a question mark over ward's. I clarified I meant comparable from that perspective not that they were directly comparable performances, better worse whatever. Would you be happier of we discussed how crap they both looked against bika?

Neither has any clear, obvious flaw to give the other an advantage. Both are quite complete boxers with their own strengths. I didn't like the way Joe struggled with Hopkins, but in a way it showed that unless you stopped Calzaghe he'd run you close or pip you to the post, regardless of your tactics and style. That is how I would call this one. I'd make Ward the slight favourite but only 55/45. I think it would go to the judges every time and every time the scores would be tight, neither would run away with it. Based on Ward's style, potential to be the p4p#1, and the way Joe struggled in certain fights against lesser opposition, only narrowly getting the nod on occasion it's Ward by the smallest or margins overall.... and I am a Calzaghe fan.

There's no doubt Calzaghe/Ward goes to points, Calzaghe doesn't hit hard enough and Joe's chin was exceptional.

I would slightly favour Ward, but in a very close fight, both are superb boxers and if Calzaghe pulled it off it wouldn't be a shock, you could possibly even see a S/D in this one.

Lance wrote:Hopkins was interested in a Ward fight at one point actually. But after they became friends Hopkins did his best to big Ward up and vice versa. Also Hopkins hits harder than Ward, so Joe might be willing to get in a bit closer without trying the windmill slaps. Although id still pick Ward. Ward is fantastic on the inside and this could get messy

Hoppo hits harder the Ward??

At MW maybe but not SMW or LHW - who was the last guy he stopped?!?

Ward has only stopped a weight drained Dawson (your words) of any note at 168lbs Toppy.

Hopkins isnt the hardest hitter goin, but hurting Tarver and Calzaghe at LHW is more than id expect from Ward.

Herman Jaeger wrote:Joe always did find a way it has to be said.

Having said that he never boxed Carl Froch whom I've always thought style-wise would have been Calzaghe's most difficult test.

So Joe to some extent benefits from his 'O' because people say he always finds a way but Froch for example suffers in these fantasy matches because he lost his biggest fight. BUT Froch didn't miss anyone out.

yeah he always found a way against the bum of the month. not that hard really. Should have lost to 90 yr old hopkins

ward 1117-111. different class

ZZ do us all a favour, Frak off back to the tennis section.

calzaghe gets too much love for a inflated cv. he was a good boxer but not at the level suggested by the numbers. Found it v tough against an old Eubank went life and death with reid and imo lost to an ancient Hopkins. A good win over Kessler and a excellent pefformnce against an overhyped Lacy. That's his record. the rest is padded fluff. Ward is better and has a better record. its pretty obvious.

He did not find it particularly hard against Eubank. I was at the fight. Joe put him over in the first and never looked like losing. Was by no means an easy nights work, but when was it ever otherwise for anyone against Chris, but the result never really looked in doubt.

Calzaghe showed he go in against one of the most accomplished spoilers of this era, away from home and after a rotten start grind out a win. The level of cheating and spiling applied by Hopkins in that fight was outrageous. How did he deserve to win that fight? Crawling around, holding, spoiling, wrestling. It bugs me that when fighters emply these tactics, they get brownie points for "making it their fight". Its just rewarding spoiling. At least Calzaghe showed he could get through it.

Calzaghe is a different kettle of fish altogether than any of the opponents Ward has faced. Much faster and more accomplished boxer. Ward hasnt faced anyone like that.